Explanation of the Impact of Player...DISCUSSION THREAD *Updated for FM11*

[ZdlR]

Yeah, I empathise

[Cleon]

I understand the frustration though especially as I said it would be up. But I'm ill and got other things to do in between. It gets frustrating wanting to write it up as fast as I can but not having the time to do so

[Cleon]

This is one of the games I had during the season, here are all the highlights just to see the type of movements my team make

[video=youtube;WLJlfPhn7Wg]

[mag man]

Love your last goal. 3 men ahead of the united defence.

[Cleon]

Love your last goal. 3 men ahead of the united defence.

Yes it was a great attacking move

[Jefke]

Hi Cleon, any idea when your review of 4-2-3-1 tactic will continue?

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon, any idea when your review of 4-2-3-1 tactic will continue?

I'm kinda doing my best, its not so easy to update as a high rate when I'm busy

I'm not discussing much yet other than how I set the player's up. The part after all the player instructions are up will be to look at how the settings actually played out in games.

[mikcheck]

Hi Cleon. Thanks for been doing that. I have one question regarding Dawson. Why didn't you use tight marking? He have pretty good stats for that, better than Gallas. Thanks

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon. Thanks for been doing that. I have one question regarding Dawson. Why didn't you use tight marking? He have pretty good stats for that, better than Gallas. Thanks

I didn't want both centrebacks to tight mark because Dawson was used for mopping up mistakes that Gallas might make. Having him on tight marking would have limited this somewhat. Plus I don't like the idea of having both centrebacks set up the exact same way. I prefer them to do slightly different things.

[Cleon]

I've put a few more up and hopefully will have the final 3 positions up after I get back

And yups I've added the AMC position because that's the one position everyone is bothered about

[edgar555]

Impressive stuff from VDV. A question though, you have his long shots on rarely despite him having 19 for this and that he loves to hit them. I assume his high CF meant that he would attempt these when the time came anyway but was this something you looked to deliberately inhibit? And did he still try screamers?

I'll talk about Luka later when I've checked his stats on my game.

[Cleon]

Impressive stuff from VDV. A question though, you have his long shots on rarely despite him having 19 for this and that he loves to hit them. I assume his high CF meant that he would attempt these when the time came anyway but was this something you looked to deliberately inhibit? And did he still try screamers?

I'll talk about Luka later when I've checked his stats on my game.

Yeah his CF will override that and he still did attempt them. But by setting his slider to rarely it reduces the amount he does try slightly which is what I was aiming for. He scored quite a few from 25 + yards out. I will be going into more depth about how the settings affected his game once all the player settings are up though.

[...Eternal Sin...]

When you up all players instruction you added also link to tactic or not? So after tactic you gonna go with training yes?

[Cleon]

When you up all players instruction you added also link to tactic or not? So after tactic you gonna go with training yes?

Nope I'm not adding a tactic file its not what I do. I prefer people to re create the tactic and understand why someones mentality is what it is. My stuff is aimed at helping people understand how the game works, if I had a tac file no-one will read what has been written and will just be lazy and download the file instead

I'll be adding the training eventually yes but I need to test it for longer myself. Training is tricky and you need to test it for several seasons to see how stable it actually is.

[...Eternal Sin...]

Oh okey then i waiting for the rest players:) and i start a Spurs save ;p VDV seems be great on this instructions

[mikcheck]

Hi Cleon. Interesting the way you instruct VDV to play. Let's say that you would want him to stay more in the hole to be more like a advanced playmaker. By reducing is mentality to normal and maybe run from deep rarely would do that? thanks.

[Cleon]

Hi Cleon. Interesting the way you instruct VDV to play. Let's say that you would want him to stay more in the hole to be more like a advanced playmaker. By reducing is mentality to normal and maybe run from deep rarely would do that? thanks.

Hard to say in this formation because my playmaker is the MCL. So if I wanted VDV to be more like an advanced playmaker I'd have to redesign the whole midfield to fit around him. to make sure he got the ball. Then I'd have to make sure he player's running off him to make use of the ball. The way he plays for my is simliar to a advanced playmaker though.

[...Eternal Sin...]

Cleon what was your match preperation? You have set full to blend squad or defence?

[...Eternal Sin...]

I see that you have buy Eden Hazard so what money do you spell on him? Can you put your screens 2 players Ismail and Forrest?

[Cleon]

I see that you have buy Eden Hazard so what money do you spell on him? Can you put your screens 2 players Ismail and Forrest?

Dude chill out and be patient....I already posted this info in the Spurs thread..

Cleon what was your match preperation? You have set full to blend squad or defence?

Squad blend

[edgar555]

Luka finished with 89% pass success for me, that only dropped from 90% when I moved him to AML with Bale missing for the last months of the season. I think that 90% was nailed on otherwise.

With Lennon those are pretty much the exact instructions I always gave him in FM10 and he never let me down. I ask a little more of him in my tactic but again his stats don't always do him justice. I used individual focus training on fiinishing and composure and taught him to place shots and his goalscoring improved dramtically and rather helpfully towards the end of the season.

[Cleon]

Luka finished with 89% pass success for me, that only dropped from 90% when I moved him to AML with Bale missing for the last months of the season. I think that 90% was nailed on otherwise.

With Lennon those are pretty much the exact instructions I always gave him in FM10 and he never let me down. I ask a little more of him in my tactic but again his stats don't always do him justice. I used individual focus training on fiinishing and composure and taught him to place shots and his goalscoring improved dramtically and rather helpfully towards the end of the season.

I played Luca as AML for a while when Bale was injured. That's what let his passing down for me also. Season 2 should be interesting now I have the positions sorted out though. How did he do for goals and assists for you? I don't mind that he didn't get that many for me because he offers much more than goals and assists. He is the engine room of my team.

I was lazy with Lennon and will be looking to get a lot more out of him next season. All my focus and energy went into Bale and getting him to perform. He had an awful first 5 months of the season but by the end of the season was my best player by far. I've never spent as much time concentrating on 1 position and player like I did with Bale. It was frustrating me seeing him perform so well for others yet been average for me. It was hard to get him involved and have it take nothing away from Defoe or VDV's game. But finally I got it right

[edgar555]

Luka had 5 goals and 7 assists in 50 games. avg 7.09. Again he's more than that, he's the heartbeat and as you say, engine room of the team.

Bale's a tricky one, lots of people have struggled, and others have success but that has sometimes come at the expense of others. His multitude of PPM's don't help either.

[Cleon]

Luka had 5 goals and 7 assists in 50 games. avg 7.09. Again he's more than that, he's the heartbeat and as you say, engine room of the team.

Bale's a tricky one, lots of people have struggled, and others have success but that has sometimes come at the expense of others. His multitude of PPM's don't help either.

Bale was a nightmare. Would have been okay if Defoe and VDV wasn't on fire. But it's hard to get 3 attackers all playing in different 'space' and playing together without effecting each others games.

Modric so underrated in this formation though. His stats are a lot better than what they read like. Hopefully I'll be able to show that in the games we study.

[homebasedgg]

hey cleon. just read your setup for gareth bale and was wondering why you have put roam from position as no?

[Cleon]

hey cleon. just read your setup for gareth bale and was wondering why you have put roam from position as no?

Because I want him to follow the instructions I set. With roaming on I noticed he was occupying a lot of the space that VDV was. So that wasn't good.

[homebasedgg]

the only problem im having with bale is that when he cuts inside he ends up having a shot with his rubbish right foot which he never scores from. so with the way you have him setup do you find that he makes runs into the box from a wider position meaning he shoots with his left foot?

[Cleon]

the only problem im having with bale is that when he cuts inside he ends up having a shot with his rubbish right foot which he never scores from. so with the way you have him setup do you find that he makes runs into the box from a wider position meaning he shoots with his left foot?

Yeah he shoots and scores with his left foot. That is helped because he has player's around him to play off though. You have to make sure he has options rather than shooting from distance with his wrong foot.

I've added all the player instructions for now. Next on the list is to show you how the roles work in game.

[edgar555]

JD's pass completion rate is good for JD, not just for a striker. Rarely see him above 75/76%

[Cleon]

JD's pass completion rate is good for JD, not just for a striker. Rarely see him above 75/76%

Most of them were one two's with either Bale or VDV

[homebasedgg]

have setup all the players with your settings and am going to test it out. look forward to your post on their roles in game. only difference for me is that i brought sissoko and am playing him in the MCr position

[Cleon]

have setup all the players with your settings and am going to test it out. look forward to your post on their roles in game. only difference for me is that i brought sissoko and am playing him in the MCr position

Why don't you create your own based on what I did rather than just copy? Copying me is fine if you know how to turn a game around that's going bad in game and what in game changes to make. I'd rather people created their own and made it fit for how they want to play. A copying me will cause more confusion to a lot of people than been helpful.

[asus]

cleon if dowson plays more behind,

because it has the clousing down higher than gallas?

[Cleon]

cleon if dowson plays more behind,

because it has the clousing down higher than gallas?

because he's deeper I have him close down slightly more to cover the gap should Gallas make the mistake.

[mikcheck]

Nice work with Tottenham Cleon. I have a doubt. Bale is instruct to cut inside without roaming but isn't cut inside "part" of roaming? I ask these because when I ask my wide players to roaming, they usually look for inside areas.

[Cleon]

Nice work with Tottenham Cleon. I have a doubt. Bale is instruct to cut inside without roaming but isn't cut inside "part" of roaming?

No, think of roaming as a freerole

[mikcheck]

Thanks. One of the reasons for you to give little CF to Lennon, is for him to always be huging touchline and don't move away from that position ?

[Cleon]

Thanks. One of the reasons for you to give little CF to Lennon, is for him to always be huging touchline and don't move away from that position ?

Yeah exactly that reason

[Jenko_EFC]

I have to say Cleon, I am rather disappointed with how the thread has turned out. It started out incredible, completely revolutionized the way I played FM and the way I thought about FM and I loved reading it and discussing it but has now turned into a thread about your tactic. I'm sure I don't speak for others though, most will get lots of help from it, I just loved the beginning about how each attribute affects what and was looking forward to more of the same.

Don't take offence though, I suppose we all have different tastes and it makes no change that you've made me completely change my mindset on the game so thank you but I'd have preferred more discussion on the beginning and I thought you would have eventually went into detail about every attribute.

[Cleon]

I have to say Cleon, I am rather disappointed with how the thread has turned out. It started out incredible, completely revolutionized the way I played FM and the way I thought about FM and I loved reading it and discussing it but has now turned into a thread about your tactic. I'm sure I don't speak for others though, most will get lots of help from it, I just loved the beginning about how each attribute affects what and was looking forward to more of the same.

Don't take offence though, I suppose we all have different tastes and it makes no change that you've made me completely change my mindset on the game so thank you but I'd have preferred more discussion on the beginning and I thought you would have eventually went into detail about every attribute.

So you didn't read all I put then I take it? I've pointed out several times in this thread and the other one that I'll be discussing how the tactics I've wrote about works in game and discuss the affect the attributes have on your tactic settingsl. People needed to know the information about what tactic I used to be able to understand what the hell I am on about when the discussion starts. If you don't know the tactic settings I use then you won't understand the rest of the thread. That's why it talks about the tactic now. But from your reply I see you've not read the parts where I've mentioned this. I hate people who skim read and then pass comment about something that is going to appear.

Or if your really disappointed you could try writing your own thread or figuring out yourself how things work rather than relying on me..

[Jenko_EFC]

So you didn't read all I put then I take it? I've pointed out several times in this thread and the other one that I'll be discussing how the tactics I've wrote about works in game and discuss the affect the attributes have on your tactic settingsl. People needed to know the information about what tactic I used to be able to understand what the hell I am on about when the discussion starts. If you don't know the tactic settings I use then you won't understand the rest of the thread. That's why it talks about the tactic now. But from your reply I see you've not read the parts where I've mentioned this. I hate people who skim read and then pass comment about something that is going to appear.

Or if your really disappointed you could try writing your own thread or figuring out yourself how things work rather than relying on me..

I read most of it, I'm not going to lie, I didn't like it as much as the rest which is why I didn't read it all and consequently made the post. I understand that people need to know the settings but I just love reading about the attributes and not the settings which aren't incredibly important, you didn't show us the settings for the other bit but it still made complete sense and was one of the best posts I've seen, like I said, completely revolutionized the way I played FM.

Like I said, I have a different taste to everybody else presumably and just liked reading how Aggression and Bravery works going into a tackle which changed my mind about just having good Marking and Tackling etc for a defender as the key points. I just don't think going through your instructions was important and I didn't enjoy reading it as much as I did the rest that's all.

Or if your really disappointed you could try writing your own thread or figuring out yourself how things work rather than relying on me..

The great thing about the thread is it encouraged me to do exactly that, however I think the thread is rather hard to pull off and don't have the time to do a similar one myself which is why I admired yours so much and was a bit disappointed. Hopefully you will go more in-depth about the attributes later on.

[joonior45363]

Phenomenal work Cleon, completely changed my way of thinking about tactics and has massively improved my enjoyment of FM11! Keep up the good work

[SFraser]

Jenko there are ways of saying "I want to discuss attributes with you" and that wasn't a very good way.

You can't expect Cleon to do all this work and still think up every question to encourage a discussion. If you want a thread to go a certain way then you need to contribute to it. I don't think either Cleon or myself would pass up the chance for a good discussion on attributes, but we can't think up every single subject ourselves.

If there is something you want to discuss then bring it up.

[Cleon]

I read most of it, I'm not going to lie, I didn't like it as much as the rest which is why I didn't read it all and consequently made the post. I understand that people need to know the settings but I just love reading about the attributes and not the settings which aren't incredibly important, you didn't show us the settings for the other bit but it still made complete sense and was one of the best posts I've seen, like I said, completely revolutionized the way I played FM.

I've already gave a brief overview (in the bits you enjoyed reading) of that the attributes did. The next part of the thread is to show how the attributes work along side the settings you give someone. So yes it was important for people to know what settings I use because the next bit will be more indepth and people need to know the settings I used.

Like I said, I have a different taste to everybody else presumably and just liked reading how Aggression and Bravery works going into a tackle which changed my mind about just having good Marking and Tackling etc for a defender as the key points. I just don't think going through your instructions was important and I didn't enjoy reading it as much as I did the rest that's all.

You are missing the POINT. It's not finished. The next part will be all about tackling, dribbling, scoring etc and going into great lengths about what the attributes did. But for that it's vital that people know what system and settings I used. If not then the whole next chapter will not make sense at all.

The great thing about the thread is it encouraged me to do exactly that, however I think the thread is rather hard to pull off and don't have the time to do a similar one myself which is why I admired yours so much and was a bit disappointed. Hopefully you will go more in-depth about the attributes later on.

Do you even listen? How many times have I stated that this is what I will be doing.....

You're passing comment on something that is nowhere near finished. This is just the first stage of the next bit.The first bits of the thread that you enjoyed reading look crap along side some of the other stuff I've written and writing. Much more depth, substance and people will get a really good understanding of what and how and why the attributes work, every single one of them.

Phenomenal work Cleon, completely changed my way of thinking about tactics and has massively improved my enjoyment of FM11! Keep up the good work

Thank you kindly, I appreciate it

Jenko there are ways of saying "I want to discuss attributes with you" and that wasn't a very good way.

You can't expect Cleon to do all this work and still think up every question to encourage a discussion. If you want a thread to go a certain way then you need to contribute to it. I don't think either Cleon or myself would pass up the chance for a good discussion on attributes, but we can't think up every single subject ourselves.

If there is something you want to discuss then bring it up.

Thanks

You are right though, for a thread like this to work it needs people to ask questions no matter how silly/daft someone might think their question is. I love it when people ask questions about attributes and want to discuss them. I'd gladly discuss them all day long seeing as this is the only part of the game I enjoy these days and talk about. Like yourself I'd never shy away from a debate on them

Plus when people ask questions it gives me the motivation to carry on. As threads like this are hard to write and no matter who has wrote it will have moments where they can't be bothered to carry on and take a break from it. It's a lot to write up and is very time consuming. But that said it is well worth it.

But yeah fire away with the questions. Everyone is welcomed to participate in the discussion no matter what level of knowledge you have about FM. So if someone as a question and wants to discuss certain attributes go for it. All questions regarding attributes are most welcome

[mikcheck]

Nice Cleon because i've got one question regarding teamwork. Let's put this scenario: Let's say that VDV have a low teamwork (something like 11 or 12). He is in game with the ball near the opposite defence. Your striker finds himself in a very good position to receive a killer ball. So if VDV have low teamwork he may, lots of times, "refuse" to pass and do some crazy shot or something like that? Despite of having loads of creativity, decisions and flair.

[Cleon]

Nice Cleon because i've got one question regarding teamwork. Let's put this scenario: Let's say that VDV have a low teamwork (something like 11 or 12). He is in game with the ball near the opposite defence. Your striker finds himself in a very good position to receive a killer ball. So if VDV have low teamwork he may, lots of times, "refuse" to pass and do some crazy shot or something like that? Despite of having loads of creativity, decisions and flair.

Yes he would be more selfish and decide to play on his own a lot more if he has a low teamwork attribute regardless of how much creative freedom he has. He would be more likely to use the creativity to help his own game rather than help a team mate. All though that would be more apparent with a much lower attribute rating lets say 8 or less.

I'll try and include some screenshots and PKM's when I can, to illustrate it in a game scenario for you

[higgins]

I just read your Tottenham stuff and I think your contribute is still impressive Cleon, I personally like your "old skool" approach about setting up your tactic, really different from wwfan's one, for example, more tactical wizard-aholic.

I'm in the middle of these two approaches, I use the wizard then I tweak some settings to make my team play in a certain way, cause I find the wizard to be a bit limited and I'm not a great fan of the shouts.

However, as I said, the way you tailored your tactic to suit your players skills is impressive, you worked like an highly skilled artisan there , I think I'll have try your approach, maybe with a weaker team.

I think your way to develop a tactic is not so different from the way a real football manager works, starting with a tactical idea and then, through a trial and error process, finely tuning it so to take full advantage of his players' skills...

Do you think that it would have been possible to be so successful with your Tottenham side using the classic TTF approach, I mean just using the tactics creator, or not?

[Cleon]

I just read your Tottenham stuff and I think your contribute is still impressive Cleon, I personally like your "old skool" approach about setting up your tactic, really different from wwfan's one, for example, more tactical wizard-aholic.

I'm in the middle of these two approaches, I use the wizard then I tweak some settings to make my team play in a certain way, cause I find the wizard to be a bit limited and I'm not a great fan of the shouts.

However, as I said, the way you tailored your tactic to suit your players skills is impressive, you worked like an highly skilled artisan there , I think I'll have try your approach, maybe with a weaker team.

I think your way to develop a tactic is not so different from the way a real football manager works, starting with a tactical idea and then, through a trial and error process, finely tuning it so to take full advantage of his players' skills...

Do you think that it would have been possible to be so successful with your Tottenham side using the classic TTF approach, I mean just using the tactics creator, or not?

Cheers

I think by just using the tactics creator I could have still had a good season but I'm not sure it would have been as good. Due to the aggressive style I am playing, I had to fit people into the style I wanted to play yet try and get the best out of each player at the same time. I actually think the TC is a great tool but for the way I play it it limited in a lot of ways for me like illustrated in the thread. There is nothing wrong with the TTF but I'm just a different style of manager so to speak and choose an approach that I know and prefer.

[edgar555]

As Cleon knows my own tactic is pretty much all TC with just a couple of little player tweaks. It is still a good tactic, as good if not better offensively but by not tightening up some of the stuff Cleon has it is definitely a looser and less defensively sound tactic. I use shouts a lot to change games and tighten things up, hence not wanting to mess with many instructions.

[Cleon]

As Cleon knows my own tactic is pretty much all TC with just a couple of little player tweaks. It is still a good tactic, as good if not better offensively but by not tightening up some of the stuff Cleon has it is definitely a looser and less defensively sound tactic. I use shouts a lot to change games and tighten things up, hence not wanting to mess with many instructions.

Yeah if you use the TC then you have to use the shouts if not it's pointless using the TC as you'll only be getting half the tactical experience of what you should be getting. My approach suits me though because I don't use shouts as everyone has individual settings to play a certain way for 90 minutes. If I want to change the game I have to do it manually by changing players individually. Which is a lot to do if you don't like fiddling about.