Is the Tranfer system abit of Joke in FM 2010?

[doc_]

By the way brightonrock, you could get the same WITH the value in-itself... You would ALWAYS offer what they're worth, because that's actually what they're worth. The bids could go up if other clubs where on the hunt too.

Lets take Jones again. He's valued at 5M, so you give him 5M. Villa comes in and bids 5,5, so that they're offer is accepted instead of yours, so you have to re-bid. But then Stoke comes in with 8M... so both of you quit.

But the rest, spot on. Scouts need a revamp...

[Badass_]

The way I see it, everyone has their price IRL. So while it's OK that clubs don't want to sell their best players, they should still most of the time accept a reasonable offer. People say "well you wouldn't sell your best players for xx million either". And why is that? Because there is nothing I can do with that money if I'm going to be quoted three times more by the AI for a similar player of another club!

I can understand TOP clubs wanting big money for their star players, but when a mid size club won't settle for anything less than 60m for their good, but not world class right back then something is wrong. The only thing that makes the transfer system in FM even remotely realistic are the Cristiano Ronaldo and Kaka transfers that were more an exception than anything. They were both established players at the biggest stage, Ballon d'Or winners and they transferred from one huge club to another. Basically, the only 35+ million transfers that happen IRL are those for one of the best, if not the best players in the world playing for a big club. In FM, way too many half decent players will cost you that, and more.

Yes, yes and yes.

[HarryMills]

I completely agree with the original poster, there's no credit crunch in FM. It's a huge part of the game and the insanely HUGE fees demanded imo ruin the realism for me. It's particularly difficult as there doesn't seem to be much player power in the game.

[HarryMills]

I'd also like to see more flexibilty and ease in making player swap deals, especially when not much money is around to rejuvinate your squad.

[Guest]

There should only be a few clubs in the world that can afford to turn down stupid money for players, the rest wether he's a key player or not should have to sell wether they like it or not. I had rediculous bids turned down for rotation and back ups too from average clubs.

[Brenery287]

I could stomach the massive fees if it worked both ways, the AI often refuse to pay anymore than maybe twice value, but at the least expect me to pay 3-4 times a players value. Its broken.

[dafuge]

I could stomach the massive fees if it worked both ways, the AI often refuse to pay anymore than maybe twice value, but at the least expect me to pay 3-4 times a players value. Its broken.

It depends how disciplined you are with your transfers. If you are willing to pull out of buying a player when the price isn't right and look to sell players at the peak of their careers you can rule the transfer market.

[john.sprehe]

My impression, having played several games of 10+ seasons is that the issues of overpriced players only starts to occur from season five on. I think in the initial season or so the AI values players based on whatever the starting DB says, but as the game gets on teams start to highly overvalue their players.

And I have to agree that it does break the transfer system. It's not that Team A won't sell their Player X unless an insane amount of money comes along--the problem is that ALL TEAMS won't sell their PLAYER X OR Y OR Z unless an insane amount of money is offered.

[tlm_77]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/223904-FM11-loans-and-transfers

[tom_numbers]

Well....I have try on every best centre defence there is in the tranfer markets such as when I put offer £40m for Gerard Pique (his tranfer values is £18m).....if that happen in real life...Barcelona would be happy to sell to me for that price as they could easily find replacement!!

It's not looking like they would though. You've tried to get every quality centre-back in the world, and been knocked back or given silly prices, why wouldn't Barca or Seville be told the same by them?

[Guest]

My impression, having played several games of 10+ seasons is that the issues of overpriced players only starts to occur from season five on. I think in the initial season or so the AI values players based on whatever the starting DB says, but as the game gets on teams start to highly overvalue their players.

And I have to agree that it does break the transfer system. It's not that Team A won't sell their Player X unless an insane amount of money comes along--the problem is that ALL TEAMS won't sell their PLAYER X OR Y OR Z unless an insane amount of money is offered.

I think thats because 5 years in a lot of clubs become super rich for some reason or other. There become no need to sell.

What I noticed in my game was the AI never bought either so that give them less reason to sell. Majority of players I saw stayed at there clubs until they retired. It kind of broke long term games for me. That was patch 10.2 don't know if 10.3 sorted it.

I'm playing fm08 at the minute. And Ive seen it sometimes but not as much. Wayne rooney, Steven gerrard. Sitting in the reserves at 34, transfer listed. I don't think clubs would treat there legends like that irl.

[john.sprehe]

It's not looking like they would though. You've tried to get every quality centre-back in the world, and been knocked back or given silly prices, why wouldn't Barca or Seville be told the same by them?

That could be the root of the problem. Maybe the AI is valuing their player based on what an better replacement would cost. And then this leads to a death spiral of sorts as players just keep becoming more and more valuable.

[Fanatical Ollie]

rule the transfer market[/url].

Some of these are incredible! Do transfers often get this high that late in the game?

[dafuge]

Some of these are incredible! Do transfers often get this high that late in the game?

I'm not sure if the date in the game was anything to do with it, the tops ones were nearly all world class strikers who were sold at the very peak of their careers for a combination of monthly payments and clauses.

[Fanatical Ollie]

I'm not sure if the date in the game was anything to do with it, the tops ones were nearly all world class strikers who were sold at the very peak of their careers for a combination of monthly payments and clauses.

Ahh ok, cool. The furthest I manage to get is only about 2012...haha! Interesting to see a game that far in! Don't most people's games crash at that stage?

[dafuge]

Don't most people's games crash at that stage?

I really hope not

[Fanatical Ollie]

I really hope not

Haha! Me too for your sake! I will eventually get that far in, hopefully with FM11, but I have a problem of getting 2nd season syndrome all the time.

[AcidBurn]

It depends how disciplined you are with your transfers. If you are willing to pull out of buying a player when the price isn't right and look to sell players at the peak of their careers you can rule the transfer market.

What sort of age were the players you sold how huge money? did you offer them out or were teams just interested in buying them?

[philly_flyer10]

An £80m price tag is basically saying that the player is not for sale, it doesn't mean the club are actually looking to sell him for £80m.

No, it means they will sell him for 80+m otherwise some players wouldnt have a price of 85m and others 120m

The asking price you see isn't the price that you sell or buy for, its simply the highest starting point for negotiations.

For the record all my first team squad have asking prices of £50m+ whereas I would seriously consider selling most of them for bids over £20m.

No, Im not on about the price they come back with, Im on about the price if you look in an editor which is the minimum they will sell for.

[eldereth]

The problem is that in real life managers would ask the same prices, but they can't, because if a higher reputation club comes along with a decent offer, they will become unsettled and clubs will be forced to sell to prevent losing their player when his contract expires. This is the one factor keeping prices in check in real life (and currently also a financial football crisis). To translate this to FM I think we would need a greater unsettling effect when clubs bid on players as it is too easy to keep players happy while interest is being shown by top clubs and signing players for 5 year contracts.

Btw, for a real life example of reasonable transfer prices: Arsenal was prepared to let Fabregas go to Barcelona should they come with a decent bid. This while this is their key player and they don't really need the money. The reason they stated was that they couldn't keep a player against his wishes. I believe there was a similar story for Gerrard.

[Cougar2010]

No, Im not on about the price they come back with, Im on about the price if you look in an editor which is the minimum they will sell for.

Neither am I.

The asking price within the game is an amount you set on a players' "Transfer status" screen, I don't use the editor so am only presuming its the same.

Its also worth pointing out that the further you progress in the game the more changes there are to the original starting data. So just because a player has an asking price of £50m when you start the game that could change as soon as you press continue and as I've stated previously that is only the highest starting figure for negotiations not a final price.

[dafuge]

What sort of age were the players you sold how huge money? did you offer them out or were teams just interested in buying them?

Usually late twenties. The players were mostly offered out although a few of them were unplanned and sold due to big bids.

[dafuge]

No, it means they will sell him for 80+m otherwise some players wouldnt have a price of 85m and others 120m

But are they expecting anyone apart from a stupid human to actually offer £80m?

The point I was trying to make was that an asking price this high should price the player out of the market, unless someone is silly enough to offer it.

[philly_flyer10]

Neither am I.

The asking price within the game is an amount you set on a players' "Transfer status" screen, I don't use the editor so am only presuming its the same.

Its also worth pointing out that the further you progress in the game the more changes there are to the original starting data. So just because a player has an asking price of £50m when you start the game that could change as soon as you press continue and as I've stated previously that is only the highest starting figure for negotiations not a final price.

But the asking price they come back with in negotiations is totally different than their real asking price. Look in an editor when youre going to give up on a game. Its tens of millions difference.

The asking price in the editor is the price they will accept, you cannot get them below this if its a purely cash deal.

[Guest]

Yeah, but I imagine if they wanted to keep the player, they would say 'he is not for sale at any price' but really if a club came along with a 30 million bid theres only 2 or 3 clubs in the world that would be in a position to say no. Every other club would have to take it.

[philly_flyer10]

But are they expecting anyone apart from a stupid human to actually offer £80m?

The point I was trying to make was that an asking price this high should price the player out of the market, unless someone is silly enough to offer it.

Youve proved youve sold players for that amount, hence a human offering that amount must be realistic.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/dafuge/World-10.png

You cant have it both ways.

Its broken, you cant blame the user for that, do you work for Apple?!?

[dafuge]

Youve proved youve sold players for that amount, hence a human offering that amount must be realistic.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/dafuge/World-10.png

You cant have it both ways.

Its broken, you cant blame the user for that, do you work for Apple?!?

They were some of the best players in the world though, and I'd like to think that I'm better in the transfer market than the AI.

[Cougar2010]

Yeah, but I imagine if they wanted to keep the player, they would say 'he is not for sale at any price' but really if a club came along with a 30 million bid theres only 2 or 3 clubs in the world that would be in a position to say no. Every other club would have to take it.

It used to, a number of users complained so now they quote high prices.

[Cougar2010]

But the asking price they come back with in negotiations is totally different than their real asking price. Look in an editor when youre going to give up on a game. Its tens of millions difference.

The asking price in the editor is the price they will accept, you cannot get them below this if its a purely cash deal.

By editor I'm presuming you mean a 3rd party app like FMRTE or genie?

You really think its a problem that they come back with a higher price in negotiations than the price they would sell for?

If so I guess you don't really understand the concept of negotiation.

[darkson01]

Seen this too many times on FM 2010. Look a Cesc. Wenger prolly would have said yes to 35-45 mil for one of the future best center mids. On Fm the AI would be 100 mil no problem. Too unreal! Paid stupid amounts for players. Think it will be sorted by agents tho

[Brian Shanahan]

I did a quick spread sheet analysis for values using my first team only and what I did was a comparison of contract value vs advertised value (at 16th January so estimated 24 week left in the year, may throw me out a month). My players' contracts were worth from 19% to 300ish% of their advertised value (the last being a 33 y.o. avaliable for talk on a bosman). I then graphed these percentages plotted against their PAs first and then their CAs:

First with outliers:

(the cut X-axis is from 0%-400%, blame my basd cut and paste skills)

Then with the two main outliers removed:

Looking at these two graphs there seems to be a strong element of a player's value based on wages, looking at the second set there are 12 players in the PA graphs hovering between 40 and 60 percent of value, and 14 for the CA graph (naturally I used the second set to count these). There then seems to be a premium put on the value for PA and CA of the players, though from the spread it would be hard to extrapolate what (bigger sample size needed). Age seems to be somewhat relevant too though with this many different varialbes that's going to be hard to figure out too.

Frankly the advertised value is a lot closer to the cost of keeping the player at the club for the duration of the contract than the actual value to the club (or what the club themselves think is the actual value).

I don't think the system is broken, you just have to be able to work it and figure out how to calculate the actual values. Remember often times in real life the only indication of what values are available are even smaller than what we get in the game [e.g. do we actually know what players like Rooney and Messi are on, most businesses are not in the habit of divulging wages (including the clubs) and the tabloids would rather pick a figure out of the air than go and find the relevant data (sometimes you can get tax records and extrapolate from them)]. I've no problem hanging around for 18 months if I think a club is quoting a ridiculous price at me for a player I want, and even if I'm impatient I can very often go out and find a player of a similar level inside of a week (in-game) who's going for 1/3 or 1/4 the price (large database rules).

Finally if anyone wants the figures I gave out PM me and I'll email them to you (I'll have to redo 2 players so it wont be immediate). It would be nice if we could get 50-100 people to check these out with a few clubs (their own and similar level clubs and see if a clear pattern emerges or not).

[philly_flyer10]

They were some of the best players in the world though, and I'd like to think that I'm better in the transfer market than the AI.

Youre not, you sold the best players in the world for that, the ai wants the same amount for players that are nowhere near the calibre of the players you sold.

Youve just proven yourself wrong again and proved exactly whats wrong with the ai prices.

[Krald]

feels like there's at least five threads on this every day, all I can say is, I dont really think it's flawed as-is.

[philly_flyer10]

By editor I'm presuming you mean a 3rd party app like FMRTE or genie?

You really think its a problem that they come back with a higher price in negotiations than the price they would sell for?

If so I guess you don't really understand the concept of negotiation.

No the problem is the price they want, I never mentioned negotiation. Its you that dont understand.

Negotiation is totally broke too.

Ill offer you £10m

No I want £20m

ok, how about £15m

No, I want £24m

Ok, Ill give you the £20m you wanted.

No, I want £30m.

[dafuge]

Youre not, you sold the best players in the world for that, the ai wants the same amount for players that are nowhere near the calibre of the players you sold.

Youve just proven yourself wrong again and proved exactly whats wrong with the ai prices.

But the major difference is that they will pay it, I won't. I know the value of a player to a team and how it can be replaced easily enough with a bit of patience, they are the ones insisting on having the best players in the world right now, even if they are approaching 30 and will cost £80m.

[Martyr1777]

Actually you seem to be the one who doesn't get the point. I totally understand what you're saying about your player. I had several players who were simply amazing and therefor I would not sell them for anything. Even if I did need the money I probably wouldn't sell them because having those players in my team means trophies.

Now, just a few days ago, I bought a a regen gk, a wonderkid that just spawned so he wasn't a key player to the team. He was worth something like 3million and I had to pay 30. Now, the question is not if I should have spent that money or not, the question is, is it realistic? absolutely not. 30 million for a 18 year old gk who just spawned? No matter how much potential he has, that's absolutely ridiculous.

Also, there was this 23 year old cm that I wanted to buy and he was worth 6million. The club would only sell it to me for 75 million.

People seem to use the same arguments over and over again. Yes, Barcelona probably wouldn't sell messi no matter the offer but not every freaking player in fm is messi! Plus I just gave two examples of good/promising players whose clubs demanded insanely high offers.

75 million for a player worth 6 million is like Barcelona asking for 1 Billion for messi.

Let me make sure with this... they wanted 30M and you thought it was unrealistic... but you payed it right? You got the player is what you said?

They don't have to be a key player, you saw the potential in the player and were willing to even pay the realistic price for him... so why is the world is it unrealistic if you actually did pay it?

Do you not see the complete contradiction of your own story?

[Cougar2010]

No the problem is the price they want, I never mentioned negotiation. Its you that dont understand.

In post #74 you clearly stated "But the asking price they come back with in negotiations is totally different than their real asking price".

Why should they quote the price they are willing to sell for? and you did mention negotiation!

[philly_flyer10]

But the major difference is that they will pay it, I won't. I know the value of a player to a team and how it can be replaced easily enough with a bit of patience, they are the ones insisting on having the best players in the world right now, even if they are approaching 30 and will cost £80m.

So if you can replace the world best players for that, why are the ai asking the same amount for players that are a lot worse? Youve said yourself you think your better than the ai.

Obviously this isnt true as youre letting superior players go for a lot less than the ai would want.

[dafuge]

Let me make sure with this... they wanted 30M and you thought it was unrealistic... but you payed it right? You got the player is what you said?

They don't have to be a key player, you saw the potential in the player and were willing to even pay the realistic price for him... so why is the world is it unrealistic if you actually did pay it?

Do you not see the complete contradiction of your own story?

That's a very fair comment. You can't go and pay £30m for a player then complain about how the deal wasn't good value. If they were ripping you off that much, why go through with the deal?

[philly_flyer10]

In post #74 you clearly stated "But the asking price they come back with in negotiations is totally different than their real asking price".

Why should they quote the price they are willing to sell for? and you did mention negotiation!

That was in reply to you mentioning it. Im not talking about negotiations, there are no negotiations, the ai has a set price that they will sell that they wont budge from. You can see that in the editor.

You are totally missing the point, you cannot judge the price the ai will sell for by quoting what the ask for. You have to use an editor.

[Brend]

Third-party editors will show you the exact amount a club will sell a player for. Those values have very little to do with the values listed in the game. By way of example:

Petr Cech

Value: 8,898,260

Sale Value: 119,268,630

Karim Benzema

Value: 16,641,360

Sale Value: 125,595,140

Rio Ferdinand

Value: 14,501,220

Sale Value: 68,140,440

Dejan Stankovic

Value: 8,632,130

Sale Value: 26,944,950

(None of the players had been transferred, all data from 29 Sept 2009 in a relatively new save, all values in British Pounds)

Were I Chelsea, I'd be positively delighted to receive 120 million for Cech. With that, I'd have enough money to buy Lloris, Neuer, and Akinfeev, with enough left over to purchase Rene Adler, just for kicks. However, were I Chelsea, I'd never be able to negotiate an offer that was greater than 30 million. The AI wouldn't be stupid enough to pay more than that. I tried to portray a range of different players, from the young and talented, to the old and soon-to-be-useless. I did, however, save the best for last:

Marcelo (from Real Madrid)

Value: 8,410,300

Sale Value: 165,365,000

Marcelo is the most expensive player in the world, according to the AI. Remarkable. Actually, another one caught my eye that makes a liar out of me. This is perhaps the most amusing... and troubling. Arsenal want C. Ronaldo money for the aged legs of William Gallas, who at the ripe old age of 32 is already in decline:

William Gallas

Value: 4,202,590

Sale Value: 81,201,610

When the AI wants such remarkably unrealistic amounts for these players, something is wrong.

[dafuge]

So if you can replace the world best players for that, why are the ai asking the same amount for players that are a lot worse? Youve said yourself you think your better than the ai.

Obviously this isnt true as youre letting superior players go for a lot less than the ai would want.

The biggest transfer I've seen between two AI clubs is £43.5m, which leads me to believe that the only way a fee of something like £80m is going to happen is if it involves a human manager. The AI can ask for values like that if they want, but there's no way I'm going to pay it, but I'm more than happy to receive a fee like that.

I've always managed to replace the players I've sold while making huge profits, so I'd like to think I'm doing well in the transfer market. I'm guessing you disagree, that's not a problem.

[philly_flyer10]

The biggest transfer I've seen between two AI clubs is £43.5m, which leads me to believe that the only way a fee of something like £80m is going to happen is if it involves a human manager. The AI can ask for values like that if they want, but there's no way I'm going to pay it, but I'm more than happy to receive a fee like that.

I've always managed to replace the players I've sold while making huge profits, so I'd like to think I'm doing well in the transfer market. I'm guessing you disagree, that's not a problem.

So if you can do that with world class players, why dont the ai do that with inferior players. In the above case, the ai would turn down £70m for Gallas and you dont think thats wrong? They could sign 3 better CBs for that.

Its clearly broke. Again youve just proved the exact opposite of what you were trying to achieve.

[dafuge]

When the AI wants such remarkably unrealistic amounts for these players, something is wrong.

Yes, the values may be wrong. But it would also be wrong for anyone to try and make bids that are anywhere near them. Without using a third party editor the only way you are going to discover these is by making unrealistic bids. These sorts of players just represent the deals where the buying club should just pull out and move on.

[dafuge]

So if you can do that with world class players, why dont the ai do that with inferior players. In the above case, the ai would turn down £70m for Gallas and you dont think thats wrong? They could sign 3 better CBs for that.

Its clearly broke. Again youve just proved the exact opposite of what you were trying to achieve.

Because there is no one other than me that would make offers like that, and I won't do it. No one is ever going to bid £70m for Gallas.

[philly_flyer10]

Still doesnt change the fact that the asking price is clearly broke.

Even if no one pays that much, asking how much they want will result in a reply of £100m or something stupid like that which is laughable.

Stop blaming users for clear bugs in the game. Anyone can see its unrealistic.

[dafuge]

Still doesnt change the fact that the asking price is clearly broke.

Even if no one pays that much, asking how much they want will result in a reply of £100m or something stupid like that which is laughable.

Stop blaming users for clear bugs in the game. Anyone can see its unrealistic.

It is just an alternative to 'not for sale', which the game used to have and got changed because it was deemed unrealistic. What we have now is the 'every player has his price' approach, but that doesn't mean we should actually be considering paying it.

I've already admitted it is unrealistic, in my very first post. I was just hoping people would think a little bit more about it and appreciate that the lack of realism is coming from two angles, the human then the AI.

[Badass_]

That's a very fair comment. You can't go and pay £30m for a player then complain about how the deal wasn't good value. If they were ripping you off that much, why go through with the deal?

Ffs guys. we're not discussing if people should go trough with deals when they're being ripped off or not!!! that is not the point at all.

That argument is so illogical, it's like saying " you don't like that the car is broke? well don't drive it then".

Plus, I don't think anyone is trying to "attack" fm, it's just an area of the game that needs improvement, that's it. Acknowledging this doesn't mean you don't like the game or that fm is less of a game...

On that note, anyone who says that the transfer system is realistic is out of their minds...

[HotshotUK]

FM 2010 suppose be REALTIC game that is close to real life game!

For In game is unrealistic! Full Stop!

I could change tranfer price in the Editor instead of moaning about the tranfer price system and start the new game again!

The FM 2010 game is good game apart from the Tranfer System.....

Let hope FM 2011 will fixed the tranfer system and i know it going take time working on those tranfer system when come to Coding!!!

[Cougar2010]

Still doesnt change the fact that the asking price is clearly broke.

Even if no one pays that much, asking how much they want will result in a reply of £100m or something stupid like that which is laughable.

Stop blaming users for clear bugs in the game. Anyone can see its unrealistic.

Brend has taken a snapshot of a few "sale values" there but what people like yourself are failing to grasp is that those values alter constantly depending on a number of factors.

Taking Cech at £120m it would be difficult with Chelsea being a top club but if you were Real or Barcelona and interacted with the player that "sale value" would drop.

Missing out on trophies, not qualifying for Europe, getting closer to the end of his contract, falling out with the manager, having you as favoured personnel would all see a significant drop in that value to a one much nearer the visible one in game.

That said though I do feel that having such a high hidden "sale value" for happy players like the examples in post #91 is an issue and one that needs to be addressed.