Concerned that players stats drop too much aged 31

[CowSimao]

Adriano as an example for that "bug" isn't the best choice...

Come on, even Adriano wouldn't have 1 pace by 33. Possibly something like 7-8 which is already low enough, but 1? Obvious bug.

[RBKalle]

Come on, even Adriano wouldn't have 1 pace by 33. Possibly something like 7-8 which is already low enough, but 1? Obvious bug.

Adriano will probably be retired by that age, competing with Maradona in terms of belly, and with Gazza in terms of booziness...

Sad jokes aside, I recognize there is a problem with pace dropping in such a dramatic way, but in Adriano's case I suppose it's a matter of poor professionalism combined with an already reduced fitness.

The stats drop is probably more relevant to players with weak mental attributes and with not-so-stellar physical skills in the starting database.

1 is definitely too low, but that's an extreme case. I don't see the big deal with other examples posted

[Schotsmannetje]

I know it's slightly off-topic, but I just want to comment on using Giggs as an example for decreasing physical stats.

Why: Because at a relative young age he got an artificial hip, didn't he? That's not a very fair example then is it?

There are/were plenty of players that were still very fast at an old age. Brazilian wing backs Serginho and Cafu come to mind.

[vasilli07]

Sad jokes aside, I recognize there is a problem with pace dropping in such a dramatic way, but in Adriano's case I suppose it's a matter of poor professionalism combined with an already reduced fitness.

Agreed with this...professionalism plays a big part. Ronaldinho with professionalism of less than 10 dropped 4 points in pace in my 1st season. He was only 29 going on to be 30.

[John Smith]

The regression in a player is pretty much tuned in this version. It's probably losing pace / acceleration to such a fast extent that is unrealistic. I can't imagine Teddy Sheringham, Gary Speed or Maldini with such low pace / acceleration under the current regression model.

Does any one have records of the pace / acceleration / stamina attributes for the a/m players over the previous versions of FM? That could be used to show how the players were rated over the years, and whether it justifies the current model.

[woody2goody]

Yes, the general trend is for outfield players to decrease in pace, acc, jumping etc at between 28 and 32, goalies between 30 and 35 probably. But FM10's problem is that there's no variation in the decline. It's always pace and acceleration, closely followed by stamina.

Now in real life, there are several older players playing in really good teams with exceptional physical stats. Ivan Cordoba, for example, has only lost a fraction of his blistering pace over the last 5 years or so (he's 35 or 36 now). In FM terms, this would probably be 2 or 3 points of pace, and only 1 of acceleration. If remember correctly, he has something like 16 pace and 19 acceleration at that age. In FM10, 30 year old Cordoba would have regressed to having (at best) about 6 pace and 9 acceleration by his current age.

There are many players, very good players, that in last year's game I would have tried to sign in a heartbeat: Chivu, Harewood, Simao, Campbell, Van Nistelrooy, Guti, Scholes and many more, but this year, they are virtually useless after a season or two. Paul Scholes starts with roughly 9 pace and 12 acceleration I think. There is no way that he would regress 5 points in each in a couple of years. That would be like being slower than my grandma, and she's 77 years old.

I signed Djamel Belmadi on a free for my Aberdeen team at the age of 33. He had 13 ACC and 12 PAC I believe. After just two seasons, he had ACC of 8 and PAC 6. He went from a very effective winger to a poor one in just two years based on physical stats. His technical and mental abilities had increased, but he was getting 6.2/6.3 ratings in a position which he had got 6.9 and 6.8 ratings the previous two seasons just because of a lack of pace. I had Mikael Silvestre for one season and he lost 3 points for each.

It's not even as if it's just human-controlled players OR CPU-controlled ones, it's both. It's so prevalent in this version, that I won't even consider Diego Forlan, Louis Saha or other players of their age (around 30), even though they would be great at the start of the game.

I'm not sure how easy it would be to fix, but I fear that this game, which is the best FM ever in my mind, will be ruined by this. Last year's development was good, but the game wasn't great for me, and this year's the other way round.

I would like to see comparisons to see if I'm just deluded

[John Smith]

Looking at some older players in the game:

Player / Age / Acceleration / Pace / Stamina

Rivaldo / 37 / 10 / 11 / 12

Roberto Carlos / 36 / 16 / 15 / 12

Makelele / 36 / 12 / 11 / 16

Roberto Ayala / 36 / 10 / 9 / 11

Panucci / 36 / 11 / 10 / 12

Henrik Larsson / 37 / 12 / 10 / 13

Edgar Davids / 36 / 9 / 9 / 9

Litmanen / 38 / 4 / 8 / 12

Speed / 39 / 6 / 6 / 10

Helveg / 38 / 5 / 8 / 13

Looking at the examples, players should not have regressed to such a fast extent that they can't perform at decent level when they are around that age.

Now basing on the current regression model, let's turn back the clock and add one point each to pace, acceleration and stamina for every year we return to the players. Bearing in mind the current model sometimes takes more than 2 points off each year.

Player / Acceleration / Pace / Stamina

Rivaldo / 17 / 18 / 19

Roberto Carlos / 22 / 21 / 18

Makelele / 18 / 17 / 22

Roberto Ayala / 16 / 15 / 16

Panucci / 17 / 16 / 17

Henrik Larsson / 19 / 17 / 20

Edgar Davids / 15 / 15 / 15

Litmanen / 12 / 16 / 20

Speed / 15 / 15 / 19

Helveg / 13 / 16 / 21

For pace and acceleration, most of them are over-rated by 1-2 points but still close. Stamina is definitely off in most cases. So as a general rule, taking one point (or less) off pace and acceleration each year after age 30 seems reasonable, but taking off more than that if the player didn't have any big injuries or influencing factors seems too much. The a/m players would never have reached their current physical attributes based on this regression model.

[Pob]

I would agree that the ageing process is certainly not perfect for physical attributes in FM10.

The database for FM has been fairly consistant in what attributes are researched for a number of years. It should be possible to see if the ageing model is accurate by copying a number of players from an old database, advance a number of seasons, then seeing how their attributes change compared to this year's researched attributes (taking into account factors like injuries and first team football availability).

EDIT: sorry, just noticed John Smith just said the same thing

[graemeS]

Gone 3 seasons into the game now and when players reach the age of 31 their stats and currently ability drops massively.

Ronalindho who at the age of 32 isnt over the hill by any means had his ca dropped to only 136. AC Milan understandably no longer wants him and he's getting a free. I also noticed Chivu aged 31 who as a defender shouldnt have his stats and ca drop so quickly compared to forwards is in the same situation with an ability drop to 138

This has happened in previous fms as well and I think players become over the hill at too early an age

I agree wholeheartedly. It was better in previous versions in that there was a general decline 31-35 but players with fitness of 15-20 could sometimes last longer. That reflects real life much more than FM2010.

I do think defenders should be able to play well into their early 30s and players with fitness of 18-20, should be able to function well at 33 and 36ish for defenders.

That's how it once was. It's a shame they changed it.

Now I tend to sell players at 29 because you can get $s for them instead of having them cost wages in the reserves from 31-33 as they run down their contracts.

[reflection22]

Yea, it actually says in the in-game tips that pop up, that strikers will reach their peak from 27-32. Yet Torres at 31yo is on acc 13/pace 13, when he started at acc 18/pace 17. So why on earth has he lost 5 points for acc and 4 for pace at just 31, when he's still supposed to be at his peak? Makes no sense at all...this is one of the world's best and most professional strikers we're talking about here.

In regard to strikers aren't they suppose to be in there primes from 27-31 or 30? I mean if that is true then the real sharp decline should happen at 32 or so. I mean it has to be different varying on the position and all the other things like professionalism and stuff. Haven't played the game in a while and I think until these things get resolved I won't be.

Some of the midfielders like Inestia declining so quick is beyond my comprehension.

[woody2goody]

To me though, even the most unprofessional players will still be able to run when they get older. Their stamina should decrease a lot if they are not putting in the effort in training, but their pace shouldn't decrease so dramatically.

[ViG1980]

Maldini was still an extraordinarily good defender at 40, and currently Nesta must again be one of if not the best defender in the world at 33 and is still extremely quick. I haven't seen it yet, but it would be a great step forward if players started to age differently based on professionalism etc imo and not just all uniformally turn crap around 31.

100% agree with the last comment about stats going down differently depending on different players although I'm thining this is already the case...

[poiston]

Its not that their stats decrease that I'm seeing, its that most clubs release more or less every player that's 32 years old on free transfers! Rooney, Anelka, Pepe Reina, Kuyt, Deco, Ballack, Antonio Valencia, Carrick to name but a few...

[outtasync]

I get the impression that physical attributes take up large chunks of CA, so even though old players' technical and mental stats are still amazing (or even improved), their CA will have massively decreased.

Even though to us human players they look like they're "still top quality players that should be good enough for most teams", I think that to some extent the A.I assesses players based on their CA so these players certainly won't make the cut if their CA is compared to other players at the club, which is why so many of them get released past 30. I'm also not sure whether A.I teams have the ability to design tactics that can accomodate older players.

[deardo]

Pace and acceleration should not decline in the way it is shown. Look at 100/200m runners - most of the best sprinters were setting world beating times when aged 30+. Sure none of the top 5 times have been set by a 30+ year old - but the rest of the top 10 times are full of 30+ year old sprinters.

At the last olympics 5 out of 16 of the semifinalists were 30+

At the previous olympics 8 out of 16 semifinalists were 30+

That's assuming a sprinter and footballer age the same way. While both can suffer pulls, tears, etc., football is a contact sport and probably wears down players faster than normal. I played in a team at age 33 with guys who were 18-25 and I usually finished towards the front of the pack in speed and the bleep test. I just struggled with niggling knocks and took longer to recover if we had multiple matches in a short period of time.

[Cinnabon09]

i think the players pace and acc. drop a little too fast. maybe a drop of 1 every year from 29 would be fair. it should however stop once players reach around 7-8. a pace of around 4 is just ridiculous. just because you reach 35 doesn't mean u will walk around the pitch

[Ranbir]

So it is dropping 1 a year, ignoring your training?

[Cinnabon09]

i'm stating it as a rule of thumb. exceptions can always be made, as when a player has a high professionalism, natural fitness, determination, work rate and low injury proneness. what do YOU suggest?

i think SI needs to think what a pace of 5-6 actually means, like how many seconds would u use on 100 meters, and actually make a realistic number for their pace. someone above stated an excellent example of ivan cordoba. how can they make a player like him on the game, yet if you played the 27 year old cordoba on fm and went on until he was 35-36, it would be impossible for him to have the physical stats that he has now

[reflection22]

There are many more examples but I'm just going to use Torres here as he illustrates the problem well. Here's him at the start of the game and at just turned 32. Now, as the game itself tells you, he is supposed to be at his peak for a striker still at 32. Surely then it can't be right that he's lost 6 points for acceleration, and 5 points for pace at that age? In last years game he'd only just start losing points at 32, the acc/pace drop has clearly been tweaked way too much this year, is starting too soon and is too rapid. This definitely needs sorting for the next patch. I'm not saying last years system was perfect, but this years one is far worse and some middle ground needs to be found.

[John Smith]

Taking Torres as an example, if we apply a decent and more agreeable 1-point loss for pace and acceleration from age 30 to 32, and a faster decline form age 33 onwards, it would probably be a better regression model. The other attribute that would decline together is workrate since an older player who has lost pace and stamina cannot run as much.

Say he keeps his physical stats from age 25 til age 29, provided he didn't suffer any major injuries.

Age - Acc / Pace / Sta / WR

29 - 17 / 17 /14 /18

30 - 16 / 16 / 13 / 17

31 - 15 / 15 / 12 / 16

32 - 14 / 14 / 11 / 15

33 - 12 / 12 / 10 / 14

34 - 10 / 10 / 9 / 13

Which would make more sense. He would still be good at 31 going on to 32. At 33 going on to 34, he'll be pretty much finished at top level.

Of course, if he did suffer a major injury like Shearer or Owen, he could lose a couple of points going into his peak.

29 - 15 / 15 /14 / 18

30 - 14 / 14 / 13 / 17

31 - 13 / 13 / 12 / 16

32 - 12 / 12 / 11 / 15

33 - 10 / 10 / 10 / 14

34 - 8 / 8 / 9 / 13

Which would mean he'll be less effective at an earlier age, forcing him to quit top level football earlier.

This is for the average professional player like Torres and Gerrard. Of course for a less than professional player like Adriano or Ronaldinho, they will decline faster. And for highly professional players like Lampard, they will decline at a lesser rate, allowing them to play top level football for longer.

[John Smith]

For a highly-professional player with high natural fitness like Lampard, it would be like

Age - Acc / Pace / Sta / WR

31 - 12 / 12 / 18 / 17

32 - 11 / 11 / 17 / 16

33 - 10 / 10 / 16 / 15

34 - 9 / 9 / 15 / 14

35 - 8 / 8 / 14 / 13

36 - 7 / 7 / 13 / 12

37 - 6 / 6 / 12 / 11

He would not decline as much after age 33, and since his game is not all about pace, he can still perform til age 35, even longer. Like Giggs and Speed.

[reflection22]

Anything would be more agreeable than the new system in FM10. As we can see with Torres, he's lost 6 points for acceleration and 5 for pace from the ages of 30-32, that's an average of losing around 3 points a year.

Taking Torres as an example, if we apply a decent and more agreeable 1-point loss for pace and acceleration from age 30 to 32, and a faster decline form age 33 onwards, it would probably be a better regression model. The other attribute that would decline together is workrate since an older player who has lost pace and stamina cannot run as much.

Say he keeps his physical stats from age 25 til age 29, provided he didn't suffer any major injuries.

Age - Acc / Pace / Sta / WR

29 - 17 / 17 /14 /18

30 - 16 / 16 / 13 / 17

31 - 15 / 15 / 12 / 16

32 - 14 / 14 / 11 / 15

33 - 12 / 12 / 10 / 14

34 - 10 / 10 / 9 / 13

Which would make more sense. He would still be good at 31 going on to 32. At 33 going on to 34, he'll be pretty much finished at top level.

Of course, if he did suffer a major injury like Shearer or Owen, he could lose a couple of points going into his peak.

29 - 15 / 15 /14 / 18

30 - 14 / 14 / 13 / 17

31 - 13 / 13 / 12 / 16

32 - 12 / 12 / 11 / 15

33 - 10 / 10 / 10 / 14

34 - 8 / 8 / 9 / 13

Which would mean he'll be less effective at an earlier age, forcing him to quit top level football earlier.

This is for the average professional player like Torres and Gerrard. Of course for a less than professional player like Adriano or Ronaldinho, they will decline faster. And for highly professional players like Lampard, they will decline at a lesser rate, allowing them to play top level football for longer.

[tdpats12]

Not sure about that, Brian McBride's mental stats kept going UP while his physical stats (mostly speed) went DOWN. He's very professional, don't typically see mental stats dropping with such players.