Official Euro 2012 - The England Tactic and Team Guide

Well done Jimbob for taking the bullet and writing up England!

I think we struggle most in central defence and on the wings.

Downing is very limited and I hadn't realised he'd had such a shocking season statswise (I know stats aren't particularly reflective but I've never thought he was much cop anyway, at least he works hard). Walcott might well shine, he's certainly got the ability. Oxlade-Chamberlain has looked good recently but very raw still and young of course - sometimes young players don't feel the pressure of expectation but for me he's looked pretty nervous in the friendlies. Milner is in pretty shocking form of late - another hard-worker but can he deliver if given the chance? For the team I think Young and Walcott should probably carry the can on either flank and they could be great but Walcott is hit-and-miss & one-dimensional whilst Young has been great in the AM/2nd striker role and will almost certainly fill that place while Rooney is not available.

Lescott is pretty run-of-the-mill as well although has picked up a bit recently. Jagielka is similarly unspectacular whilst Terry is a donkey. His passion does make up somewhat for his abundant donkeyness but he seems a shadow of the force he once was. Shame Cahill was injured and Phil Jones probably isn't ready to step in DC just yet.

Because of this weakness in the middle of defence England have played so so deep in the friendlies. Disciplined and fairly organised given short time frame (they will of course need to be far more organised) but just so deep. It cramps the space in front of goal but is pretty negative and might well serve to frustrate Rooney even more than usual and he aint great when 'frustrated'.

There's a few different options I think England could employ (but won't).

I'd like to see Welbeck as the advanced forward, Rooney as complete forward and Young on the left but tasked with drifting in-field and being either a direct threat with the ball or working in tandem with Rooney to provide the creatives. This would mean that the MR would have to be more rounded and less willing to bomb forward so out goes Walcott (and probably Oxlade-Chamberlain) but Milner could fill that role brilliantly. In fact Walcott might even work as the Adv.For but that's stretching it a bit. The reason I choose Welbeck over the others is just that he's in good form and it'll creating a trio of club-mates up top which is often indicative of successful international sides. With Milner tucking in from the right Gerrard would then have more freedom to move forward which could, in turn, allow either Rooney or Young to play more advanced at times. A sort-of 442 come 4312/4321/41221.

Great start.

would love if Jagielka starts ahead of Lescott. Lescott is a stopper himself and will not do a good job along side Terry. Plus Lescott is too error prone to rely on as a Last man.

Also in midfield, I think Milner would be a better choice than Chamberlain. With Milner playing a deeper role, Gerrerd can roam freely and unleash one or two powerful bullets.

Well done Jimbob for taking the bullet and writing up England!

I think we struggle most in central defence and on the wings.

Downing is very limited and I hadn't realised he'd had such a shocking season statswise (I know stats aren't particularly reflective but I've never thought he was much cop anyway, at least he works hard). Walcott might well shine, he's certainly got the ability. Oxlade-Chamberlain has looked good recently but very raw still and young of course - sometimes young players don't feel the pressure of expectation but for me he's looked pretty nervous in the friendlies. Milner is in pretty shocking form of late - another hard-worker but can he deliver if given the chance? For the team I think Young and Walcott should probably carry the can on either flank and they could be great but Walcott is hit-and-miss & one-dimensional whilst Young has been great in the AM/2nd striker role and will almost certainly fill that place while Rooney is not available.

Lescott is pretty run-of-the-mill as well although has picked up a bit recently. Jagielka is similarly unspectacular whilst Terry is a donkey. His passion does make up somewhat for his abundant donkeyness but he seems a shadow of the force he once was. Shame Cahill was injured and Phil Jones probably isn't ready to step in DC just yet.

Because of this weakness in the middle of defence England have played so so deep in the friendlies. Disciplined and fairly organised given short time frame (they will of course need to be far more organised) but just so deep. It cramps the space in front of goal but is pretty negative and might well serve to frustrate Rooney even more than usual and he aint great when 'frustrated'.

There's a few different options I think England could employ (but won't).

I'd like to see Welbeck as the advanced forward, Rooney as complete forward and Young on the left but tasked with drifting in-field and being either a direct threat with the ball or working in tandem with Rooney to provide the creatives. This would mean that the MR would have to be more rounded and less willing to bomb forward so out goes Walcott (and probably Oxlade-Chamberlain) but Milner could fill that role brilliantly. In fact Walcott might even work as the Adv.For but that's stretching it a bit. The reason I choose Welbeck over the others is just that he's in good form and it'll creating a trio of club-mates up top which is often indicative of successful international sides. With Milner tucking in from the right Gerrard would then have more freedom to move forward which could, in turn, allow either Rooney or Young to play more advanced at times. A sort-of 442 come 4312/4321/41221.

I thought it would be the easy one to write about, never actually realised how difficult England are to talk about haha.

I agree with Downing he is awful, for the first couple of games at least I would give Young the AMC role, Rooney will probably be better there when he's back and his linkup with Welbeck should be brilliant given their United form.

Terry a Donkey? Slow maybe yes but he is still the best center back we have. Lescott can have his moments i.e last game of season against QPR letting cisse through on goal but I rate him. Cahill would be better completely agree, I think he complements terry perfectly, he's a bit quicker and is class swith the ball at his feet.

I think what Hodgson has tried to do is just make us hard to beat, Ie the deep line, plenty of men behind the ball, two solid banks of four. We will be relying on moments on brilliance to take things from games and its all going to be unspectacular 1-0 wins, but I think that is the best way for us at the moment.

Yeah with Milner MR he would tuck in almost as a center midfielder creating a solid bank of three, even if he did get forward he's got the legs to get back. Walcott does like playing up front and his pace would be devestating on the counter, play him off Carroll for the flick ons could work very well. I just have a thing against Walcott, just never seems to perform well, he will make a good opportunity and spoil it with a poor ball. Gerrard and Parker have to start MC no questions asked, Parker will almost play DM giving Gerrard that little bit more of a license to move forward. Agree with the Welbeck point, him Rooney and Young could make a brilliant trio.

Great start.

would love if Jagielka starts ahead of Lescott. Lescott is a stopper himself and will not do a good job along side Terry. Plus Lescott is too error prone to rely on as a Last man.

Also in midfield, I think Milner would be a better choice than Chamberlain. With Milner playing a deeper role, Gerrerd can roam freely and unleash one or two powerful bullets.

Milner ML though, I know he can play anywhere but there are better options. Personally I'd be tempted to go 4-2-3-1 Parker, Milner holding, Young Gerrard Walcott Rooney/Welbeck the attacking four. But hey Roys Boys will be forever 4-4-2

EDIT: Will try and get a proper tactical analysis done tonight, although im a little short of time

Milner ML though, I know he can play anywhere but there are better options. Personally I'd be tempted to go 4-2-3-1 Parker, Milner holding, Young Gerrard Walcott Rooney/Welbeck the attacking four. But hey Roys Boys will be forever 4-4-2

Milner will be wasted on the Left flank, especially looking at the other teams in the group. Yes, 4-2-3-1 is indeed the tactic for Europe and Roy should go for it atleast against Italy.

I think what Hodgson has tried to do is just make us hard to beat, Ie the deep line, plenty of men behind the ball, two solid banks of four. We will be relying on moments on brilliance to take things from games and its all going to be unspectacular 1-0 wins, but I think that is the best way for us at the moment.

Somewhere on ZonalMarking Michael points that with a short, quick knock out competition being hard to beat is usually more beneficial than being prolific going forward. I think he cites Germany at the last World Cup as a potential exemplar, also Paraguay reaching the final with 4 or 5 draws. Shame though, as in Rooney and Gerrard we have 2 extremely fine attacking players who have shown consistently that for their clubs (i.e. in the right team) they can be as good as anyone going forward.

Milner ML though, I know he can play anywhere but there are better options. Personally I'd be tempted to go 4-2-3-1 Parker, Milner holding, Young Gerrard Walcott Rooney/Welbeck the attacking four. But hey Roys Boys will be forever 4-4-2

Yes it does seem like maybe other formations fit the best players better (with the exception of the out-and-out wingers that must be selected if you're going traditional English 442). With Cole & Johnson we have 2 decent attacking full-backs too so it always seem that theoretically we'd be fine with a narrow formation but we never seem to have the smarts or the touch to play creative and narrow further up the pitch. Other formations just don't seem to work so well with the national team and as the world moves further and further away from a 442 we're doubly stuck.

If only we'd invested in technique over good ole fashioned English pluck and determination! Still, doggedness and strong-will can go a long way!

Somewhere on ZonalMarking Michael points that with a short, quick knock out competition being hard to beat is usually more beneficial than being prolific going forward. I think he cites Germany at the last World Cup as a potential exemplar, also Paraguay reaching the final with 4 or 5 draws. Shame though, as in Rooney and Gerrard we have 2 extremely fine attacking players who have shown consistently that for their clubs (i.e. in the right team) they can be as good as anyone going forward.

Yes it does seem like maybe other formations fit the best players better (with the exception of the out-and-out wingers that must be selected if you're going traditional English 442). With Cole & Johnson we have 2 decent attacking full-backs too so it always seem that theoretically we'd be fine with a narrow formation but we never seem to have the smarts or the touch to play creative and narrow further up the pitch. Other formations just don't seem to work so well with the national team and as the world moves further and further away from a 442 we're doubly stuck.

If only we'd invested in technique over good ole fashioned English pluck and determination! Still, doggedness and strong-will can go a long way!

I agree tournament football anyone can beat anyone. Just look at Greece, and thats exactly how we need to play. We dont have the skill or flare to pass our way through defences, grit and determination is how we will win. Looking at the two friendlys I think Roy has sort of got it right, team looks together as a unit, defend together. My only worry is we will lack penetration and not score enough goals, I think we need to give Gerrard, Rooney more of a free creative role to really get stuck in and try to change the game.

I agree tournament football anyone can beat anyone. Just look at Greece, and thats exactly how we need to play. We dont have the skill or flare to pass our way through defences, grit and determination is how we will win. Looking at the two friendlys I think Roy has sort of got it right, team looks together as a unit, defend together. My only worry is we will lack penetration and not score enough goals, I think we need to give Gerrard, Rooney more of a free creative role to really get stuck in and try to change the game.

I guess then its still the Sven-Göran Eriksson way? Get the Lead and win dirty 1-0.

I guess then its still the Sven-Göran Eriksson way? Get the Lead and win dirty 1-0.

Always the best way no doubt being England we will find a way to make it extreamely difficult.

Want to get the tactical part wrote up now, really kick some discussion off

Roy Hodgson certainly has a dilemma on his hands for the ST and ML positions. Every other position in midfield seems pretty much nailed on going by the friendlies; Parker and Gerrard in the centre, Milner on the right and Young in a deepish forward role. I believe that Downing will get the nod over Chamberlain for the ML berth. Chamberlain, although displaying his techinque and ability on the ball against Belgium, is too raw and erratic for the Hodgson "system". Up front, I think for the France game Welbeck could get the nod. He has the pace and skill to worry their defenders as well as possessing that bit of magic that was so brilliantly displayed against Belgium - something Andy Carroll is just not capable of. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Carroll started.

England has been fine in their defensive shape but for France, a team that play in a very similar style to Belgium, they will not hold back. Whereas Belgium lacked in the final third, France certainly have players of causing real damage in the form of Benzema, Nasri and Ribery. From watching the two friendlies under Hodgson, it's clear that England are step-up to contain but lack any form of a game-plan when in possession. They don't look to play a possession game, they don't look to play a direct, high tempo game and they don't look to get the ball wide to wingers and get crosses in. The main cause of the problem is Gerrard in central midfield. What Gerrard tries to do in his role as part of a defensive 4-4-2 is really not what is needed; attempting ambitious passes and getting forward at any opportunity is suicidal in a two man-midfield. Gerrard possesses the ability to play in a two-man midfield but its his tactical indiscipline that's the major hindrance. The other problem is Milner on the right. Although brought into the side for his work-rate, versatility and positioning sense, he struggled offensively against Belgium. He has good crossing ability but he's no major threat. If Andy Carroll was to be utilized then his offensive contribution would be put to better use.

Young's role is supposedly as the "link" player but I haven't seen him do much of that. He seems much more focused on staying higher up the pitch when England have the ball, making it difficult to construct any passing moves. His role seems closer to a false ten or maybe he’s been told to swap roles with the other forward. Rooney is a big-miss here because I’m not convinced that Young has the appropriate abilities to play this role, as the attacking, creative burden falls mostly on this guy’s shoulders.

Having a clear game plan when in possession instead of having square pegs in round holes has been one of England’s weaknesses in major tournaments in the past and could be again.

Milner will be wasted on the Left flank, especially looking at the other teams in the group. Yes, 4-2-3-1 is indeed the tactic for Europe and Roy should go for it atleast against Italy.

God no, the 4231 isn't suited to England. We do not have the players to use it effective.

Why does everyone think Spain are the blueprint for football? There not, they pass and move the around lovely but there not a threat. Just look at their games in competitive matches to see. All the threat came from Villa and no-one else.

The 4-4-1-1 which England will play suits them. It won't be attractive football but we'll be hard to break down and hard to beat. And seeing how 99% of the teams will be playing 4231 it will give us a nice balance against those teams. Copying them any playing a 4231 the same would be bad as man for man we are weaker than most sides.

The last few replies between me and Crouchaldino in this thread explain how I feel on England http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/203951-Roy-Hodgson-s-4-4-2

God no, the 4231 isn't suited to England. We do not have the players to use it effective.

Why does everyone think Spain are the blueprint for football? There not, they pass and move the around lovely but there not a threat. Just look at their games in competitive matches to see. All the threat came from Villa and no-one else.

The 4-4-1-1 which England will play suits them. It won't be attractive football but we'll be hard to break down and hard to beat. And seeing how 99% of the teams will be playing 4231 it will give us a nice balance against those teams. Copying them any playing a 4231 the same would be bad as man for man we are weaker than most sides.

I think its the whole attractive football bit that seals the deal, It looks nice so everyone wants there football to look nice. As Chelsea proved though it doesnt have to look good, a tournament win is a tournament win, it doesnt matter how its done it is still a win. Im sort of optimistic about our chances, if we can be as solid as we have looked against Norway and Belgium and find the right balance in attack I would say we have a pretty good chance actually. Its just the whole creating chances thing where I think we will struggle.

Im in the middle of the tactical analysis now might be tomorrow by the time I get it finished though

I think its the whole attractive football bit that seals the deal, It looks nice so everyone wants there football to look nice. As Chelsea proved though it doesnt have to look good, a tournament win is a tournament win, it doesnt matter how its done it is still a win. Im sort of optimistic about our chances, if we can be as solid as we have looked against Norway and Belgium and find the right balance in attack I would say we have a pretty good chance actually. Its just the whole creating chances thing where I think we will struggle.

Im in the middle of the tactical analysis now might be tomorrow by the time I get it finished though

Who does it look nice for tho, Spain and Holland, but who else? And if you look all the nice stuff is risk free in their own half. It's a big mis-perception that 4231 is attractive football, it simply is not bar Spain. And even then it's not all that really as they struggle to score goals, you only have to look at the results they had in WC and Euros to see my point.

We'll create enough chances to win games I'm certain of that. Roy's had a lot of stick but he really is a quality manager and deserves the chance and time allowed to turn us into a hard to beat side. I wanna see England win things, I don't care how its done aslong as we win. To win things we need to be hard to beat and then we'll have half a chance. I think we can do this under Roy.

Who does it look nice for tho, Spain and Holland, but who else? And if you look all the nice stuff is risk free in their own half. It's a big mis-perception that 4231 is attractive football, it simply is not bar Spain. And even then it's not all that really as they struggle to score goals, you only have to look at the results they had in WC and Euros to see my point.

We'll create enough chances to win games I'm certain of that. Roy's had a lot of stick but he really is a quality manager and deserves the chance and time allowed to turn us into a hard to beat side. I wanna see England win things, I don't care how its done aslong as we win. To win things we need to be hard to beat and then we'll have half a chance. I think we can do this under Roy.

I was going to say Barca but that is the style not the formation so yeah, I was thinking more of Tika-Taka than 4-2-3-1. So I see what you mean with it not being attractive bar with Spain. David Villa a huge loss for them I think.

Just looking at the two friendlys though I dont think we showed enough going forward, yes we were tough to beat and neither team never really looked like scoring but I think going forward we didn't create enough. I think Roy is the right man for us, he is very good at getting underperforming teams doing well so in that respect yes he is definately the right man. I can just see an awful Euros leading to him being shown the door,

Just looking at the two friendlys though I dont think we showed enough going forward, yes we were tough to beat and neither team never really looked like scoring but I think going forward we didn't create enough. I think Roy is the right man for us, he is very good at getting underperforming teams doing well so in that respect yes he is definately the right man. I can just see an awful Euros leading to him being shown the door,

The main reason for not showing "enough going forward" is mainly to do with Roy's rigid 4-4-2, and the 4-4-2 formation in general. Unless people roam out of position and into space within a 4-4-2, it can look terribly flat, stale and stagnant. I personally think that the tournament is far too early for the new Roy Hodgson's England, and people should really see it as a large training camp exercise where he can try to embed his philosophy and system for the up and coming World Cup qualifiers.

The main reason for not showing "enough going forward" is mainly to do with Roy's rigid 4-4-2, and the 4-4-2 formation in general. Unless people roam out of position and into space within a 4-4-2, it can look terribly flat, stale and stagnant. I personally think that the tournament is far too early for the new Roy Hodgson's England, and people should really see it as a large training camp exercise where he can try to embed his philosophy and system for the up and coming World Cup qualifiers.

This. But it'll be good experience for the yougsters he has took.

The main reason for not showing "enough going forward" is mainly to do with Roy's rigid 4-4-2, and the 4-4-2 formation in general. Unless people roam out of position and into space within a 4-4-2, it can look terribly flat, stale and stagnant. I personally think that the tournament is far too early for the new Roy Hodgson's England, and people should really see it as a large training camp exercise where he can try to embed his philosophy and system for the up and coming World Cup qualifiers.

Yeah I do agree, but I just think if we don't do very well media and fans get on his back he will always be struggling to win us round. Personally I think he should be given till the world cup as you said, give him a real chance to make his mark on the team. I hope regardless of whatever happens in the Euros he's given a proper chance for the world cup.

What do people think about the whole Ferdinand fiasco? I know it isn't really tactics but its related to the team and him being picked?

I'd always agree that managers should be given a chance and now that Roy is in the hotseat he needs a chance to prove that his methods work for England at the highest level so that needs to be measured against World Cup performance, not performance over the next month. He's proved that his methods work in International football but what I worry about is the influence it'll have in the long run.

If the team do alright in this competition and then similarly do alright in the World Cup then we can expect to see Roy at the helm until maybe the next World Cup after that, which is 6 long years of boring, calculated football.

Any talented 16 year old who wants to represent his country would then be best off developing his physique and being stoical in the chance of being selected in 2018. Whilst these are admirable qualities in any professional they are hardly the defining characteristics of a creative and exciting person/player. Abundant technique, guile and craft are not top of the list of desirable qualities under this regime (this will possibly and hopefully change in time).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see England succeed and I'd agree that a marathon starts with a few steps but surely we want to take those first steps confidently and unashamedly rather than tentatively and nervously? Winning at all costs is fair enough when money or livelihoods are involved but is that really what you want to see out of international football where pride and inspiration should be at the fore?

I'd always agree that managers should be given a chance and now that Roy is in the hotseat he needs a chance to prove that his methods work for England at the highest level so that needs to be measured against World Cup performance, not performance over the next month. He's proved that his methods work in International football but what I worry about is the influence it'll have in the long run.

If the team do alright in this competition and then similarly do alright in the World Cup then we can expect to see Roy at the helm until maybe the next World Cup after that, which is 6 long years of boring, calculated football.

Any talented 16 year old who wants to represent his country would then be best off developing his physique and being stoical in the chance of being selected in 2018. Whilst these are admirable qualities in any professional they are hardly the defining characteristics of a creative and exciting person/player. Abundant technique, guile and craft are not top of the list of desirable qualities under this regime (this will possibly and hopefully change in time).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see England succeed and I'd agree that a marathon starts with a few steps but surely we want to take those first steps confidently and unashamedly rather than tentatively and nervously? Winning at all costs is fair enough when money or livelihoods are involved but is that really what you want to see out of international football where pride and inspiration should be at the fore?

Your right yeah, and exciting football is always preferable BUT and its a big but, looking at the squad we have do we have the players to play open exciting football? I think if Redknapp had got the job and tried to play his style of football we would have been ripped to shreads. We would be to open and especially playing teams like France, Spain, Germany they have to much quality in attack for us to be open. For the Euros tight compact and boring is the way forward. For the future, I hope Roy realises we are the 5th best team in the world and tries to play exciting football. You never know if we have a good Euros he might get some confidence and try to be a bit more open and attacking. Who knows?

Very good point with the youngsters though, we need to start concentrating more on techincal ability in my eyes. But for every strong phsical player we get an oxlade-chamberlain or a Rooney it won't be half bad will it.

Just putting the final touches to the tactic analysis, will be up in the next 5 minutes

Tactic analysis is now up im planning on tweaking it slightly and maybe even add in an extra little bit after the first game with France, can properly analyse then. Enjoy

I disagree that Hodson's style is all about physical ability over technical. He certainly understands how to use technical players and in my eyes, is able to bring about a good balance in the way demonstrated by his intentions of letting Ashley Young drift in the hole as this is the best way to use his flair, technique and dribbling ability.

Also, in his Fulham side that got the the Europa League final, Zoltan Gera played a key part in a similar way, dropping off the front man and roaming in the hole. He too, was blessed with a great touch and vision and it was this role that allowed Fulham to be so dangerous in the attacking third in that particular cup run.

Tactic analysis is now up im planning on tweaking it slightly and maybe even add in an extra little bit after the first game with France, can properly analyse then. Enjoy

Nice write up and the images sums up the idea pretty well.

God no, the 4231 isn't suited to England. We do not have the players to use it effective.

Why does everyone think Spain are the blueprint for football? There not, they pass and move the around lovely but there not a threat. Just look at their games in competitive matches to see. All the threat came from Villa and no-one else.

The 4-4-1-1 which England will play suits them. It won't be attractive football but we'll be hard to break down and hard to beat. And seeing how 99% of the teams will be playing 4231 it will give us a nice balance against those teams. Copying them any playing a 4231 the same would be bad as man for man we are weaker than most sides.

And I see my comment miss-interpreted by Cleon above. People might disagree but I totally favor the team/Line-up which started against Belgium earlier this weak. It was 4-2-3-1 or degenerated 4-3-3 as pointed above by jimbobBRFC.

Fundamentally, to me a formation is something which is defined by the avg positions of the players. Players like Young/Walcott will always prefer to play higher and one would rarely find them tackling/marking opposite number to win the ball when not in possession. Moreover, they simply doesn't have the stamina to run up the field form MR/ML position.

Though I agree things will be different when Rooney comes back into the system and with your suggestion of 4-4-1-1, I assume we fall in the same line of thought.

Your right yeah, and exciting football is always preferable BUT and its a big but, looking at the squad we have do we have the players to play open exciting football? I think if Redknapp had got the job and tried to play his style of football we would have been ripped to shreads. We would be to open and especially playing teams like France, Spain, Germany they have to much quality in attack for us to be open. For the Euros tight compact and boring is the way forward. For the future, I hope Roy realises we are the 5th best team in the world and tries to play exciting football. You never know if we have a good Euros he might get some confidence and try to be a bit more open and attacking. Who knows?

Very good point with the youngsters though, we need to start concentrating more on techincal ability in my eyes. But for every strong phsical player we get an oxlade-chamberlain or a Rooney it won't be half bad will it.

Just putting the final touches to the tactic analysis, will be up in the next 5 minutes

Good work on the analysis, great use of piccies to augment things.

It sounded like I was being overly critical and simplifying Roy's style in my previous post and I wasn't deliberately trying to be so damning - he's almost certainly the most intelligent manager we've had for a while and intelligence counts at the top. He may play a very typically Hodgson style of football but as pointed out above, Hodgson has always been good at incorporating the more technically gifted players he has at his disposal.

I don't think Roy would move too far aware from his cautious, deliberate style and frankly, why should he? He's (almost) always had good success playing that way and he is an excellent manager at drilling his players and developing a 'team'. Very hands on which is extremely admirable given the current crop of sit-back managers.

It's just that I'd like to see England have taken a progressive route with their development. With the current crop slowly edging towards retirement and a couple of fairly promising young players who are well positioned to get good game-time at top clubs over the next few years it might of been good timing to move towards a more technical game - particularly with realistically low expectations at the moment. The danger is that we'll do fairly well being a 'solid' team and then bring in a new manager and try to step it up when there is a higher expectation and things will fall down again.

Despite his more flamboyant style Redknapp isn't the guy to do this either and I certainly don't have a solution.

Good work on the analysis!

I disagree that Hodson's style is all about physical ability over technical. He certainly understands how to use technical players and in my eyes, is able to bring about a good balance in the way demonstrated by his intentions of letting Ashley Young drift in the hole as this is the best way to use his flair, technique and dribbling ability.

Also, in his Fulham side that got the the Europa League final, Zoltan Gera played a key part in a similar way, dropping off the front man and roaming in the hole. He too, was blessed with a great touch and vision and it was this role that allowed Fulham to be so dangerous in the attacking third in that particular cup run.

Sorry yeah maybe that was a little blunt. His sides usually are a lot more about determination getting men behind the ball and being tough to beat, they are never technically outstanding but yes he does use the technical players well. As furious mentioned he is the most intelligent manager we've had in a very very long time.

Nice write up and the images sums up the idea pretty well.

And I see my comment miss-interpreted by Cleon above. People might disagree but I totally favor the team/Line-up which started against Belgium earlier this weak. It was 4-2-3-1 or degenerated 4-3-3 as pointed above by jimbobBRFC.

Fundamentally, to me a formation is something which is defined by the avg positions of the players. Players like Young/Walcott will always prefer to play higher and one would rarely find them tackling/marking opposite number to win the ball when not in possession. Moreover, they simply doesn't have the stamina to run up the field form MR/ML position.

Though I agree things will be different when Rooney comes back into the system and with your suggestion of 4-4-1-1, I assume we fall in the same line of thought.

I think Roy will want the ML/R to track back and help though, which is maybe why he may play Milner MR as he has the stamina and defensive ability to make it up and down the line. I think it will set up like a 4-4-2 but one of the strikers will drop a little deeper. if young/Rooney were playing there they would naturally drop further back anywway.

Good work on the analysis, great use of piccies to augment things.

It sounded like I was being overly critical and simplifying Roy's style in my previous post and I wasn't deliberately trying to be so damning - he's almost certainly the most intelligent manager we've had for a while and intelligence counts at the top. He may play a very typically Hodgson style of football but as pointed out above, Hodgson has always been good at incorporating the more technically gifted players he has at his disposal.

I don't think Roy would move too far aware from his cautious, deliberate style and frankly, why should he? He's (almost) always had good success playing that way and he is an excellent manager at drilling his players and developing a 'team'. Very hands on which is extremely admirable given the current crop of sit-back managers.

It's just that I'd like to see England have taken a progressive route with their development. With the current crop slowly edging towards retirement and a couple of fairly promising young players who are well positioned to get good game-time at top clubs over the next few years it might of been good timing to move towards a more technical game - particularly with realistically low expectations at the moment. The danger is that we'll do fairly well being a 'solid' team and then bring in a new manager and try to step it up when there is a higher expectation and things will fall down again.

Despite his more flamboyant style Redknapp isn't the guy to do this either and I certainly don't have a solution.

Good work on the analysis!

Bring in Guardiola thats my thoughts

Would people like to see match previews before every game? Fyrefuze has done it in the portugal thread and I think its a pretty good idea

Would people like to see match previews before every game? Fyrefuze has done it in the portugal thread and I think its a pretty good idea

I did it to commence/guide the tactical discussions with a eye on next opponent. Would love to see the one for England-France another high profile match of the starting week. No compulsions though.

You can use one of Jafar's images on oleole.com.

I did it to commence/guide the tactical discussions with a eye on next opponent. Would love to see the one for England-France another high profile match of the starting week. No compulsions though.

You can use one of Jafar's images on oleole.com.

Cheers yeah im going to do one, should be able to find some time at some point

I believe that Terry is the weak link in England defence. His form is sketchy and Rio deserved the nod. Also if Lescott is in first 11 then Terry will play in the right CB slot which is his weak point. Since he isn't covering defender it shouldn't be expected to make any difference but his bad games, from what I've seen, were when he played on the right.

GK: Joe Hart

DR: Glen Johnson

DC: Jolean Lescott

DC: John Terry

DL: Ashely Cole

MR: James Milner

MC: Steven Gerrard

MC: Scott Parker

ML: Stewart Downing/ Ashley Young

AMC: Ashely Young/ Wayne Rooney

ST: Danny Welbeck

Above is how I think they will line-up. Main worry would be Downing and especially Milner who have been going more central when defending and not been able to get up in support and they attacks have only happened with Young being more of a free role than you might of expected and has been staying closer to Welbeck which will get limited every game need more than one way of chance creation.

Partnership of Lescott and Terry just won't work needs to be one or the other I feel and will get found out. Jagielka I would play instead of Terry. Rio should of been in from the start and 100% after Cahill went out but feel Terry had to go as well with the lack of his type of CBs. Rio/Terry Jagielka/Lescott would be the partnerships but we know the best would just not work for "football reasons".

A good plus is there is players on the bench who could make a more attacking and proactive approach when needed such as Wallcot, Ox and Defoe when he returns while still being in the same formation just more open.

I feel England could of took a more positive approach to possession but quite a few of the players who could enable that are not in the squad and some they just don't have compared to other nations and the counter appoach is likely the right one and it is easier to do with such a short time for Roy to get results.

I believe that Terry is the weak link in England defence. His form is sketchy and Rio deserved the nod. Also if Lescott is in first 11 then Terry will play in the right CB slot which is his weak point. Since he isn't covering defender it shouldn't be expected to make any difference but his bad games, from what I've seen, were when he played on the right.

I think Terry has had a much better season if you want me to be honest. Really dont rate Rio that much anymore although my ideal DC partnership would be Terry/Ferdinand but that won't happen. I do agree that Terry Lescott wont work but they managed well enough against Belgium, gives us some hope.

GK: Joe Hart

DR: Glen Johnson

DC: Jolean Lescott

DC: John Terry

DL: Ashely Cole

MR: James Milner

MC: Steven Gerrard

MC: Scott Parker

ML: Stewart Downing/ Ashley Young

AMC: Ashely Young/ Wayne Rooney

ST: Danny Welbeck

Above is how I think they will line-up. Main worry would be Downing and especially Milner who have been going more central when defending and not been able to get up in support and they attacks have only happened with Young being more of a free role than you might of expected and has been staying closer to Welbeck which will get limited every game need more than one way of chance creation.

Partnership of Lescott and Terry just won't work needs to be one or the other I feel and will get found out. Jagielka I would play instead of Terry. Rio should of been in from the start and 100% after Cahill went out but feel Terry had to go as well with the lack of his type of CBs. Rio/Terry Jagielka/Lescott would be the partnerships but we know the best would just not work for "football reasons".

A good plus is there is players on the bench who could make a more attacking and proactive approach when needed such as Wallcot, Ox and Defoe when he returns while still being in the same formation just more open.

I feel England could of took a more positive approach to possession but quite a few of the players who could enable that are not in the squad and some they just don't have compared to other nations and the counter appoach is likely the right one and it is easier to do with such a short time for Roy to get results.

Milner will be a lot better defensively so I think that will be the only reason he will start, I think against France Milner will play but I'd much rather see Walcott there even though I do despise the guy.

Agree with the thoughts on the bench, hopefully Defoe comes back and comes back well beause he is an outstanding player. Does not deserve to be sat on the bench at Spurs. He looked the best player against Belgium so hopefully he will play a part in a game at least.

We don't have enough technically quality players to try and play possesion football and keep the ball. Maybe with Wilshere, Cleverley, Carrick even Scholes in the squad it could be doable. But we are playing the best style for the players we have

EDIT: Have just re read your post and see you do agree with the style were playing, apologies

I think Terry has had a much better season if you want me to be honest. Really dont rate Rio that much anymore although my ideal DC partnership would be Terry/Ferdinand but that won't happen. I do agree that Terry Lescott wont work but they managed well enough against Belgium, gives us some hope.

Milner will be a lot better defensively so I think that will be the only reason he will start, I think against France Milner will play but I'd much rather see Walcott there even though I do despise the guy.

Agree with the thoughts on the bench, hopefully Defoe comes back and comes back well beause he is an outstanding player. Does not deserve to be sat on the bench at Spurs. He looked the best player against Belgium so hopefully he will play a part in a game at least.

We don't have enough technically quality players to try and play possesion football and keep the ball. Maybe with Wilshere, Cleverley, Carrick even Scholes in the squad it could be doable. But we are playing the best style for the players we have

EDIT: Have just re read your post and see you do agree with the style were playing, apologies

Yeah only reason I see Milner there is his workrate and every player named were the ones I was thinking of.

Good work Jimbob I will keep an eye on this thread, also agree with Mr Welsh, just above me here, Milner has a "good engine" as the TV pundits all say and that counts for a lot in game intensive tournaments but as a Man Utd fan I just hope Ashley Young stays fit for the team GB olympic diving squad. With some refs, his brand of falling to the floor with a half spin and perfect landing will not go down to well and he could get some cards for his troubles.

Scott Parker will be good to watch, where has he been hiding all these years, classic English player and mixed with Milner, could tire out some teams with their closing down and constant running. Defoe, get him of the bench, he is too good to just sit there, both for Spurs and England.

I still don't think we have seen the best of the new managers ideas as what we have been given in the last two matches is what I class as a second team for the first match and a near first team last Saturday consisting of very tired players after the long season mixed with a thought of not wanting to pull/strain/break anything just before the whole thing kicks off, unfortunately we lost a good defender because of that nasty and unpunished shove into Joe Harts shoulder and where straight red cards can be appealed, so should clear fouls like this be looked at again.

Roll on Monday, err, maybe...

I love football, which I guess is why I hate it too. For me, before any Liverpool/England game there is always that slightly sick feeling where you expect something awful is about to happen, but optimistic that today could be the day when you show the world what an excellent team you are. You then either score and pray to anyone who will listen that you will get a second and have some breathing space, whilst glancing at the clock every 42.7 seconds to see if it is nearly half/full time yet. Or you concede and wonder how you will ever equalise, let alone win with the players you have.

When it works out though, by god it feels good.

Downing and Carroll - supposed to be such a threat for Liverpool this season - never happened. Milner's good engine hides the fact that he rarely seems to influence a game going forward. I think Gerrard will be up for it - but Terry in the first game will be a risk as I'm not sure he is over his injury. Two good friendly results didn't hide the pressure we had to cope with and our lack of forward penetration. I am fearful, but maybe, just maybe.....

I love football, which I guess is why I hate it too. For me, before any Liverpool/England game there is always that slightly sick feeling where you expect something awful is about to happen, but optimistic that today could be the day when you show the world what an excellent team you are. You then either score and pray to anyone who will listen that you will get a second and have some breathing space, whilst glancing at the clock every 42.7 seconds to see if it is nearly half/full time yet. Or you concede and wonder how you will ever equalise, let alone win with the players you have.

When it works out though, by god it feels good.

Downing and Carroll - supposed to be such a threat for Liverpool this season - never happened. Milner's good engine hides the fact that he rarely seems to influence a game going forward. I think Gerrard will be up for it - but Terry in the first game will be a risk as I'm not sure he is over his injury. Two good friendly results didn't hide the pressure we had to cope with and our lack of forward penetration. I am fearful, but maybe, just maybe.....

My exact feelings on England If Milner can find his Aston Villa form he is as dangerous as anyone, just never really shone at City I dont think. Gerrard, Parker, Terry, Rooney will all be brilliant I think, and the younger lads will be eager to impress Roy.

Greece did it so why can't we? I think we have the right man and the right tactics to do well, I just never ever expect anything with England. For the past 10 years we have had one of the best squads in the world on paper, we are just the masters of underacheiving. Quiet optimism is ok though, bit of luck and a good performance when we need one and things could be ok.

@qqq I agree Defoe should not be sat on the bench, he is an outstanding player. The best striker we have bar Rooney but I think due to his lack of game time over the season and the unfortunate events of the past couple of days I can't see him playing much part. But you never know with England

Really dont think im looking forward to watching ENgland tonight im optimistic about my chances I just hate watching England. Alwyas do it the hard way

After today's match I'm wondering if the team's philosophy isn't "very rigid". The two lines of 4 were so clear when France was attacking that Ashley Young's position is the only thing that keeps me from stating this was a clear "very rigid" formation.

All the chat is about the perils of playing too deep. This was evident from the friendlies, thought they might sort it for the tournament but apparently not. Shame, top players should back themselves more often than not from 20 yards, from 25-30 yards with pressure it's an entirely different position?

.Different in fm though. It's England's midfield that is too deep, not necessarily their d-line. I guess that pragmatically it is better than giving chances inside the box but with such structured and disciplined banks of 4 I'd like to see England slightly more advanced in defence and putting a bit more pressure on the opposition. A little more pressing and more advanced positionally would be a good mix.

A few observations:

1: The match was a fantastic example of different playing styles and the type of player required to successfully, or not, produce each. France played a methodical, short passing, possession and control focus game. They were undone by their failure to find the final ball, being reduced by England's suffocating defence to half chances and long shots. To work, such a tactical approach generally requires a technically accomplished, creative and composed midfielder setting up a chance on a plate for player breaking past the back line into the box. That France never really looked like achieving this is partially down to the excellence of the English defending and partially down to the relative creative weakness of their central midfield. With only Nasri really able to unlock the door, and even he not a creative, technical genius, France too often got crowded out in the final third.

In contrast, the English system was based around direct, quick passing counter attacks. For this to work, the players on the end of moves need to possess a fantastic first touch and quick thinking vision, as generally they will be receiving difficult balls and required to do something with them quickly. Unlike the French system, the quality of the pass is not key, rather the tempo and directness, which simultaneously guarantees space and requires excellent control from the ball receiver. Unfortunately for England, they didn't perfectly stick to the game plan, their front two were perhaps not up to the technical questions the passing style raises, and the ref was a little biased against it, which perhaps were the main reasons they didn't keep their lead (see below).

2: The referee absolutely hindered England's playing style by only reacting to hard challenges (the bookings for Chamberlain and Young) but failing to penalise tactical fouls. France were allowed to nip England attacks in the bud, often on the first or second pass, by tripping or pushing the ball player before he could take advantage of the acres of space opening up ahead. Although many French players were guilty, Cabaye was the main culprit and should have been booked in the first half. A yellow would have resulted in a more circumspect approach and given England more chance to take advantage of the central midfield breaks. That he wasn't booked allowed the French to continually and cynically stop attacks early, which meant their final third inadequacy wasn't ever properly punished.

3: England's defence, at times, didn't seem to know whether they should be launching counter attacks or playing safe. This resulted in two things. Firstly, mainly in the first half, the English defence compressed itself when in possession, meaning the French could close it down easily. Too often a hurried first time pass to a player who wasn't in the best of positions, who was then forced to play an aimless direct ball. Compare this to France's backline, who dropped deep and wide is support of the ball player. Whereas the difference in movement is to be expected due to the contrasting playing styles, the English defence too often played themselves into trouble by being overly quick in the pass when it was pointless to be so. Direct play is all well and good, but it doesn't have to be the be all and end all of every passing move.

The second issue surfaced after England had scored. The defenders, especially Lescott and Terry, suddenly seemed to believe initiate counter attacks with cushioned defensive headers or pinpoint passes into central midfield. Their attempts to do so merely resulted in the French winning the ball back in dangerous areas with the English defence out of position. They got away with it a few times prior to the final mistake costing the equaliser. However, that both these issues disappeared after half-time suggests that Hodgson sorted it out and got them playing to plan again in the dressing room. Had he wanted composed, ball-playing defenders, Rio would have been in the squad and on the pitch.

4: Do Wellbeck and Young have good enough first touches to be the targets for this type of play? Does Wellbeck have the requisite off the ball movement and close control to bring others into play around him? The reviews I've read generally praise Wellbeck for having a good game. Personally, I would be concerned by the relative lack of times he brought a team mate into play and his tendency to isolate himself or lose the ball in the tackle. I thought Defoe showed much more composure and vision in the few minutes he was on the pitch, controlling the ball well and opening space for team mates. Apart from Young's pass to Milner, I was very disappointed with his contribution. He either lost the ball in the support striker position or was caught offside trying to make a late run through the defensive line. I think the team is missing Rooney's ability to keep possession in tight spots, with perhaps nobody else in the squad able to achieve it.

5: Parker was immense until he tired. Once he did, after about 60 minutes, he began to slide into challenges, potentially risking dangerous free kicks, bookings or taking himself out of play with the French in a good position, and to lose the ball when trying to break out of defence. If this was merely an issue of losing tactical composure, Hodgson should be able to sort it out in the dressing room. If, however, he does tend to tire after 60, England and Spurs need to have a Plan B.

If you take out the last quarter of the first half, when England lost shape and possession, add a referee who punished tactical fouling and play a support striker and/or line leader who can keep the ball a little more comfortably, I think England would arguably be the better side. However, France also have more creative options on the bench, which could have helped with their final third conundrum, and opened up more space as the English backline tired. Arguably, both managers waited too late for their substitutions. Pragmatism and the necessity of not losing triumphed over the spirit of adventure. Both teams will be tough to beat, but perhaps both are a little lightweight up front to cause much worry for high quality opponents right now. That may change, of course, once their injured / suspended players are back.

Was very impressed with the performance last night, we went out to stifle France and did exactly that. Gave them no opportunity, they only really tested Hart from range and they were all easy stops bar Nasri's which ona second glance is a lot more difficualt for the keeper than first seen. The few main points IMO

1) Englands midfield sat way to deep, it wasnt to bad against a team like France who are going to attack us but against Sweeden and Ukraine we need to press a little higher, standing off them that much will be determential to us. FOr France's goal we had 7 players almost in a line on the 6 yard box, if they had kept ther e line a little further up Nasri would not have got his shot off.

2) The Ox gives us much needed pace and drive. When he picks up the ball and gets running at people he is excellent. Yes his decision making and finishnig probably could be improved but he isnt afraid to run at a man and always finds space. He should start aganst Sweeden and he will cause real problems. If it wasnt for a couple of "proffessional fouls" from France he would have created a lot more.

3) Walcott should start over Milner. I agree with Milner starting over Walcott against France as defensively he is much better but against the weaker teams it has to be Walcott. With him, The OX, Young and Welbeck that is a very pacy attack. OUr defensive counter attacking style should work wonders with them four on the pitch. Im not the biggest Walcott fan as you well know but he should start on Friday against Sweeden.

A good perofrmance, cannot wait untill Friday now.

The referee absolutely hindered England's playing style by only reacting to hard challenges (the bookings for Chamberlain and Young) but failing to penalise tactical fouls. France were allowed to nip England attacks in the bud, often on the first or second pass, by tripping or pushing the ball player before he could take advantage of the acres of space opening up ahead. Although many French players were guilty, Cabaye was the main culprit and should have been booked in the first half. A yellow would have resulted in a more circumspect approach and given England more chance to take advantage of the central midfield breaks. That he wasn't booked allowed the French to continually and cynically stop attacks early, which meant their final third inadequacy wasn't ever properly punished.

This. I alluded to this in the [thread=308771]France thread[/thread]. I think I might update the bit about being `questionably partisan` because I think you're absolutely right - the ref, as all do, plays a certain style. In this instance, he would punish aggressive tackles and turn a blind eye to the tactical fouls that France were committing all the time. This is why it looked partisan, because it didn't seem to have too much logic too it at the time, but paired with the circumstances of the game, it was pretty logical that France would not be punished for their cynicism.

This. I alluded to this in the [thread=308771]France thread[/thread]. I think I might update the bit about being `questionably partisan` because I think you're absolutely right - the ref, as all do, plays a certain style. In this instance, he would punish aggressive tackles and turn a blind eye to the tactical fouls that France were committing all the time. This is why it looked partisan, because it didn't seem to have too much logic too it at the time, but paired with the circumstances of the game, it was pretty logical that France would not be punished for their cynicism.

It still wasn't on though, How The Ox and Young got yellow cards and Cabaye left the pitch without picking up a booking absolutely lost me. Although I do agree with what your saying about playing a certain style, just hope the next ref plays a better style.

On Friday I think Walcott should start over Milner, with him The Ox young and welbeck they should be way to much for Sweden to handle. Id keep everything else the same, although I still think Micah Richards is a much much better Right back than Johnson but hey, Im not Roy Hodgson

Either against Sweden or Ukraine I'd argue it's essential to hand a few rests out and mix things up, particularly with the likes of Parker and Gerrard. If we want to progress through the tournament, there is no doubt Parker will reach a bit of a burn-out after 6 games in 20 days. It's makes a lot more sense to give the odd rest now, while it is affordable. I'd like to see Jones or Milner start in the middle for one of the next 2 games.

It still wasn't on though, How The Ox and Young got yellow cards and Cabaye left the pitch without picking up a booking absolutely lost me. Although I do agree with what your saying about playing a certain style, just hope the next ref plays a better style.

On Friday I think Walcott should start over Milner, with him The Ox young and welbeck they should be way to much for Sweden to handle. Id keep everything else the same, although I still think Micah Richards is a much much better Right back than Johnson but hey, Im not Roy Hodgson

I would have taken Richards hands down over Johnson, but I thought Johnson did well.

Either against Sweden or Ukraine I'd argue it's essential to hand a few rests out and mix things up, particularly with the likes of Parker and Gerrard. If we want to progress through the tournament, there is no doubt Parker will reach a bit of a burn-out after 6 games in 20 days. It's makes a lot more sense to give the odd rest now, while it is affordable. I'd like to see Jones or Milner start in the middle for one of the next 2 games.

yeah Parker look absoloutely shattered when he came off against France and I hear rumours his achilles problem is flaring up so a rest against Sweeden would do him good I think. Milner will play most games I think, he can run forever so dont think we will need worry about him. I think most of the changes will come about if we beat Sweeden, because if we do it puts us in a very strong position. I think he will go for it against Sweeden and then make the changes for the Ukraine game which isnt as important.

I would have taken Richards hands down over Johnson, but I thought Johnson did well.

he did, I will never slate Johnson again after he made that little interception infront of Benzema when he certainly would of scored. Micah is a tank though!

yeah Parker look absoloutely shattered when he came off against France and I hear rumours his achilles problem is flaring up so a rest against Sweeden would do him good I think. Milner will play most games I think, he can run forever so dont think we will need worry about him. I think most of the changes will come about if we beat Sweeden, because if we do it puts us in a very strong position. I think he will go for it against Sweeden and then make the changes for the Ukraine game which isnt as important.

It helps that Milner hasn't played quite as regularly as a lot of the players throughout the season also. He's one who Hodgson doesn't need to worry about.

I too though Johnson had a good game on Monday, I'd see he was one of our better players.

It helps that Milner hasn't played quite as regularly as a lot of the players throughout the season also. He's one who Hodgson doesn't need to worry about.

I too though Johnson had a good game on Monday, I'd see he was one of our better players.

If Milner had been playing regularly though I am pretty confident he would of scored when he took it past the keeper but hey. He can play anywhere and he works hard, he had to be in the squad. I think he will be vital in the knockout stages against the bigger teams.

Johnson was pretty good actually yeah, going forward he is as good as anybody but defensively he worries me. He doesnt have the pace of Micah or Kyle Walker to get back in position when he does attack. Milner was there to cover so it wasnt as problematic but thats the only thing I think lets him down.

Johnson was pretty good actually yeah, going forward he is as good as anybody but defensively he worries me. He doesnt have the pace of Micah or Kyle Walker to get back in position when he does attack. Milner was there to cover so it wasnt as problematic but thats the only thing I think lets him down.

Johnson dealt with the threat of Ribery very well on Monday. He exploited the space well on odd occasions but it was his defensive work that I was praising.

If Milner had been playing regularly though I am pretty confident he would of scored when he took it past the keeper but hey. He can play anywhere and he works hard, he had to be in the squad. I think he will be vital in the knockout stages against the bigger teams.

Johnson was pretty good actually yeah, going forward he is as good as anybody but defensively he worries me. He doesnt have the pace of Micah or Kyle Walker to get back in position when he does attack. Milner was there to cover so it wasnt as problematic but thats the only thing I think lets him down.

Milner looked nervous when he latched onto that only through ball whole night from Young. But I still rate him highly in this system, especially against the bigger sides. Without him, Johnson would have been badly exposed by Ribery!

I have been highly impressed with Roy Hodgson's work so far. IMO every underdog team in any competitions should build their teams like his defensively.