Official Euro 2012 - The England Tactic and Team Guide

[peleJunior]

Can't believe this thread is quiet after tonights game. Perhaps the English are celebrating? Hodgson's Carrolll "gamble" paid off somewhat. Walcott was a good sub, still you feel England are lacking in central midfield, no imagination in there.

[Cleon]

Can't believe this thread is quiet after tonights game. Perhaps the English are celebrating? Hodgson's Carrolll "gamble" paid off somewhat. Walcott was a good sub, still you feel England are lacking in central midfield, no imagination in there.

We don't need the imagination when playing 442 though from a central point. It's all about the wingers and fullbacks providing the crosses and width. We need the creativity in the centre when we play 4411 though. But then the creativity comes from the front 2 whoever that be. The AMC dropping deep into central positions and providing the creativity for the striker and wingers. I think you'll notice a difference against Ukraine once Rooney is back in the side as he offers this link up play and creativity more than any other side.

We are trying to create a system that plays to our strengths and frustrates opponents. I actually think we are better suited to playing stronger opposition though. We lack creativity atm but it'll be very interesting to see the qualifying for the WC start and see the youngsters coming through when have that bit of creativity and see how Hodgson can get the team playing then.

I actually think it's an exciting time to be an England fan and for the first time since Venables I believe we have a manager and play in a way we can actually win something one day if we sort out a few issues. The main one is sitting far too deep. I think that's more of a mental problem than a tactical one though as the players are just used to been as deep as possible when playing for England. They need a leader in defence who can help do this and tell them to push up. And the keeper needs to become more vocal and take charge a lot more than he actually does.

I felt Young was poor tonight but I think this was due to the change in role he's been playing in recent weeks for England.

Walcott did good when he came on but he still doesn't offer enough for me to be a regular starter. He is more suited to been used as an impact player when you are chasing the game or wanting to get people in behind the oppositions defence once they have tired legs late in a game. He also seems to play better when he's used like this as the pressure of him to produce is off. The end product of Walcott isn't good enough to start regular imo.

Milner offers more stability and allows the fullback more license to attack.

Carroll gets a lot of stick but the price tag he has is nothing to do with him. He is a good player and is a big threat when used properly. When Liverpool started doing this in the last 2 months of the season he began playing well and scoring goals. Give him crosses and he'll score. Liverpool didn't really do this until end of the season so when he did play for them he didn't have the correct supply so he was always going to be ineffective.

He also holds the ball up well for the midfield to join in and can create a few chances with his feet as well.

While tonights performance wasn't that great I think they showed great heart to come from behind after having the stuffingknocked out of them to win the game. For the first time since Euro 96 I felt England actually wanted to win the game and could. Normally when they go behind you can see the players lack the drive and passion. But I think Hodgson has them playing for the shirt they are wearing and brought them together as a unit.

If Messi had scored the goal Welbeck scored last night we'd never hear the end of it. That finish was as good as any top player as ever done. Welbeck showing he has the quality when it counts and can produce the goals.

[wwfan]

I thought Hodgson got it spot on. On another day, that could have been 4-1. Sweden's keeper made a few stunning saves. Things to remark on:

1: Johnson's positioning on the first goal was horrid and he was caught out a few times later on as well. As he's almost certain to start all the games, I think Hodgson has to think carefully about who to play ahead of him. Play Walcott and you'll get great penetration down that flank, but it will be attacked. Play Milner and you'll have some extra solidity, but sacrifice the penetration. It is a tough call.

2: A lot of people have been commenting on how open England left the midfield. I didn't see it that way. I thought both teams were looking for the win, which inevitably stretched things. I certainly have no worries that England will always be open in midfield. We did, after all, see the French game.

3: I'm interested in the flexibility England now have up front. We can play a target man / poacher (Carroll / Defoe), a DLF / advanced forward (Rooney / Wellbeck), or any combinations of the above. I think Hodgson is likely to pick combos with regards to the opposition, although I doubt he'll drop Rooney. Might be interesting for him to have a Plan B option which sees Rooney playing at the tip of a midfield diamond, with Gerard and Milner as Carilleros and Parker as an Anchor Man. That would allow him to play two forwards, one of which could be Walcott. I don't think it will happen, but I'm intrigued by the possibility.

4: One reason I'm intrigued is the total innocuousness of Ashley Young. Since his through ball to Milner against France, he's done nothing. If Hodgson is unable to get better out of him and is wary of using Downing or Chamberlain, then the possibilities of 3 look enticing.

5: The self-constricting defensive movement I mentioned with regards to the France match never happened. The back line seemed much more aware of when to stay deep and when to step up, meaning they weren't forcing themselves into hitting uncomfortable balls. However, neither Gerrard nor Parker seemed willing enough to drop into the line and ask for the ball, meaning too often a central defender tried to play a weighted ball forward, which was invariably intercepted. I'd like to see a little more movement from England's central midfield when the back four look out of obvious options.

[tomtuck01]

4: One reason I'm intrigued is the total innocuousness of Ashley Young. Since his through ball to Milner against France, he's done nothing. If Hodgson is unable to get better out of him and is wary of using Downing or Chamberlain, then the possibilities of 3 look enticing.

I think it's because of how he is now being asked to play.

Before Hodgson took over England had been playing a 4-3-3/4-5-1, (whichever way you would prefer to term it), and he was playing on the left of that front three. In FM terms he was at AML - Inside forward. Given the fact he had three middfielders behind him he had more freedom to roam and do as he wanted, safe in the knowledge that there was a safety blanket behind him.

His role has now changed though, in the France game to the man behind the striker, and last night wide left of a four.

Him being behind the striker means he has to be the main link man, and in all honesty he doesn't seem to relish it so much. Whether that is because there is to much pressure on him to produce, or simply because he likes being wide so he can cut in and get a shot off or see more passing options, I don't know.

As for being left in a 4-4-2, I think he struggles doing it for England because he hasn't got as much support from the fullback as what he gets at United. Ashley Cole use to be all about raiding forward, but as he has got older he has turned into a much better defender and so picks his moments to get forward more carefully. When Young is playing for United he constantly has support as Evra is always up with him, so he can look for one-two's to find more space. Also United always have two forwards that are happy to drift and offer short options, whereas last night England had one fairly static forward (Carroll) and only one (Welbeck) coming short and offering an option.

[Cleon]

John Terry was a real problem for me last night. His lack of pace could have been very costly, especially as England pushed very high up and pressed. Zlatan got in a few times behind and we looked vulnerable to balls played behind the back.

What role did you see Welbeck playing last night wwfan? I thought he was used as the deep lying forward yesterday and kept dropping into the midfield when he didn't have the ball. I don't like seeing him used this way as I believe he is more suited to playing further up and exploiting the space in the channels and drifting out wide. Although I can understand why this didn't happen when playing with Carroll.

When playing Carroll I wish we utilise crosses more rather than going more 'long ball'. At points throughout the game we gave possession away easily as rather than building up with passes they just went long looking for Carroll. Which kinda takes away some of the play for me. I'd like to see us just knock the ball around and build up rather than give the ball away. I'm not talking about passing like Spain do or anything but some ball retention would be nice to see. Because when we go long we lose possession and are forced back in our own half a lot more than I'd like to see.

The Ukraine game will be interesting though as Rooney will back. So I'm waiting to see what Hodgson thinks the best way to play Rooney will be and who partners him and in what system.

[wwfan]

John Terry was a real problem for me last night. His lack of pace could have been very costly, especially as England pushed very high up and pressed. Zlatan got in a few times behind and we looked vulnerable to balls played behind the back.

What role did you see Welbeck playing last night wwfan? I thought he was used as the deep lying forward yesterday and kept dropping into the midfield when he didn't have the ball. I don't like seeing him used this way as I believe he is more suited to playing further up and exploiting the space in the channels and drifting out wide. Although I can understand why this didn't happen when playing with Carroll.

When playing Carroll I wish we utilise crosses more rather than going more 'long ball'. At points throughout the game we gave possession away easily as rather than building up with passes they just went long looking for Carroll. Which kinda takes away some of the play for me. I'd like to see us just knock the ball around and build up rather than give the ball away. I'm not talking about passing like Spain do or anything but some ball retention would be nice to see. Because when we go long we lose possession and are forced back in our own half a lot more than I'd like to see.

The Ukraine game will be interesting though as Rooney will back. So I'm waiting to see what Hodgson thinks the best way to play Rooney will be and who partners him and in what system.

I think Wellback was being played as a DLF, and agree he didn't look comfortable. I'd much prefer to see him working the channels in an AF role. However, an AF/TM combo risks failing to connect the midfield and forward strata. Hence, Hodgson had him drop deep.

Would agree Terry looks slow, but he has adapted his game to his loss of pace and I am not that worried about him.

[Cleon]

I think Wellback was being played as a DLF, and agree he didn't look comfortable. I'd much prefer to see him working the channels in an AF role. However, an AF/TM combo risks failing to connect the midfield and forward strata. Hence, Hodgson had him drop deep.

Would agree Terry looks slow, but he has adapted his game to his loss of pace and I am not that worried about him.

Do you think we'll stick 442 for Ukraine? Or go back to 4411 with Welbeck as AF and Rooney playing in the hole?

Terry for me is wreckless once someone gets past him though, I fear for him been sent off. Will be interesting to see what we'd do against someone like Spain or Germany though. Do you reckon this could be another reason why we went so deep against France? As they have fast players and runners from all angles, meaning pace was a big issue.

[wwfan]

Do you think we'll stick 442 for Ukraine? Or go back to 4411 with Welbeck as AF and Rooney playing in the hole?

Terry for me is wreckless once someone gets past him though, I fear for him been sent off. Will be interesting to see what we'd do against someone like Spain or Germany though. Do you reckon this could be another reason why we went so deep against France? As they have fast players and runners from all angles, meaning pace was a big issue.

I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1, with Gerrard as a DLP and Parker as an Anchor. I'd then play Walcott and Young but give them license to roam and interchange. However, I'm expecting a rigid 4-4-1-1 with only Rooney being given any freedom.

[tomtuck01]

Terry for me is wreckless once someone gets past him though, I fear for him been sent off. Will be interesting to see what we'd do against someone like Spain or Germany though. Do you reckon this could be another reason why we went so deep against France? As they have fast players and runners from all angles, meaning pace was a big issue.

I know the media love him, (as a footballer), but I just don't get the whole John Terry thing. With all the injuries he has had and the way in which his pace, (which was never that good to begin with), has plummeted in the last few years I just don't understand how he is actually in the side.

The fact that he is ahead of Phil Jagielka is just baffling to me. If all had been fit, then Lescott, Cahill, Jagielka, Ferdinand, and even Chris Smalling are all better all round defenders than Terry.

Everybody bangs on about him having the heart of a lion, throwing himself into last ditch tackles and blocks, but that it becaue he is so far out of position that he has to do those things. His reading of the game is shambolic and as has already been mentioned his pace is woeful.

The way I was taught was that central defenders shouldn't have to make tackles if they're good - it's about making interceptions and winning headers.

[Cleon]

I know the media love him, (as a footballer), but I just don't get the whole John Terry thing. With all the injuries he has had and the way in which his pace, (which was never that good to begin with), has plummeted in the last few years I just don't understand how he is actually in the side.

The fact that he is ahead of Phil Jagielka is just baffling to me. If all had been fit, then Lescott, Cahill, Jagielka, Ferdinand, and even Chris Smalling are all better all round defenders than Terry.

Everybody bangs on about him having the heart of a lion, throwing himself into last ditch tackles and blocks, but that it becaue he is so far out of position that he has to do those things. His reading of the game is shambolic and as has already been mentioned his pace is woeful.

The way I was taught was that central defenders shouldn't have to make tackles if they're good - it's about making interceptions and winning headers.

I don't like Terry either, I actually think he is one of the most overated defenders of all time. He gets caught out of position far too often to me. He does put his body on the line though but then again any defender should. Plus he has no other option as players would just skip past him.

I'd like to see a 4-2-3-1, with Gerrard as a DLP and Parker as an Anchor. I'd then play Walcott and Young but give them license to roam and interchange. However, I'm expecting a rigid 4-4-1-1 with only Rooney being given any freedom.

In your formation Rooney would be AMC and Welbeck uptop?

tom - How do Welbeck and Rooney play together for Man utd? I can't say I've seen that many Man utd games to comment. Do they have a decent understanding together?

[Guest]

I am still disapointed there is no Carrick and especially no Richards, the funny thing about Johnson is that he is getting it tight on a lot of message boards with regards to last nights performance, yet some pundits are seeing it differently.

Guy Mowbray being just one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18462232

[wwfan]

I am still disapointed there is no Carrick and especially no Richards, the funny thing about Johnson is that he is getting it tight on a lot of message boards with regards to last nights performance, yet some pundits are seeing it differently.

Guy Mowbray being just one.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18462232

He does make some fantastic covering tackles, as Guy Mowbray's ratings point out. Problem is, he's too often covering for his own poor positioning. In FM terms, his excellent technical and physical attributes are compensating for his poor mental ones.

As for Cleon's earlier query, yes, Rooney in the hole.

[craney]

I agree with finding it hard to understand why Richards is not in the side. I know he didnt play much towards the end of the season due to injury but he really is a good solid full back. You would lose the threat going forward compared to Johnson delivary wise but Mica is more than capable of getting up and down as he has proved. He would also be another good option from set plays as well i believe.

I have been doing alot of thinking regarding englands centre midfield for the future and i must say i am a little worried. After Gerrad Lampard Parker etc we seem to only be left with perhaps Wilshire who i believe could be a real driving force in the midfield but who would you play with him? The only players english centre mids that spring to my mind are Henderson (oh god please no!!) maybe Phil Jones but i see him as a future england full back, maybe Ox could end up playing a central role for england in the future what do you think?

[tomtuck01]

You see Phil Jones as a future fullback? He's awful at fullback, truly awful.

[kevin3]

I agree with finding it hard to understand why Richards is not in the side. I know he didnt play much towards the end of the season due to injury but he really is a good solid full back. You would lose the threat going forward compared to Johnson delivary wise but Mica is more than capable of getting up and down as he has proved. He would also be another good option from set plays as well i believe.

I have been doing alot of thinking regarding englands centre midfield for the future and i must say i am a little worried. After Gerrad Lampard Parker etc we seem to only be left with perhaps Wilshire who i believe could be a real driving force in the midfield but who would you play with him? The only players english centre mids that spring to my mind are Henderson (oh god please no!!) maybe Phil Jones but i see him as a future england full back, maybe Ox could end up playing a central role for england in the future what do you think?

Tom Cleverley, Tom Huddlestone, Jack Rodwell, Josh McEachran, Jonjo Shelvey. Along with Jack Wilshere, I'd be excited for the future if I were an English supporter.

[Cleon]

I agree with finding it hard to understand why Richards is not in the side. I know he didnt play much towards the end of the season due to injury but he really is a good solid full back. You would lose the threat going forward compared to Johnson delivary wise but Mica is more than capable of getting up and down as he has proved. He would also be another good option from set plays as well i believe.

I have been doing alot of thinking regarding englands centre midfield for the future and i must say i am a little worried. After Gerrad Lampard Parker etc we seem to only be left with perhaps Wilshire who i believe could be a real driving force in the midfield but who would you play with him? The only players english centre mids that spring to my mind are Henderson (oh god please no!!) maybe Phil Jones but i see him as a future england full back, maybe Ox could end up playing a central role for england in the future what do you think?

Ross Barkley, Tom Cleverley, Jack Rodwell are 3 off the top of my head who will all play for England regular barring injuries of course.

Phil Jones will play centreback he wont be a fullback.

[tomtuck01]

Also there is James Milner, who is only 26. His best position is by far and away in the middle of midfield.

[Guest]

Jordan Henderson too, I believe the Ox prefers an attacking central midfield position, but very rarely plays there.

[craney]

My bad i actually forgot about Tom Cleverley, Jack Rodwell!! Hopefully if these guys can stay fit like you mention we could indeed have a very bright future. We could indeed have a very strong backline with the likes as Jones at centre half then instead of full back with smalling just like the u21's and gibbs at left back, im guessing maybe martin kelly as the future right back or richards?

[kevin3]

My bad i actually forgot about Tom Cleverley, Jack Rodwell!! Hopefully if these guys can stay fit like you mention we could indeed have a very bright future. We could indeed have a very strong backline with the likes as Jones at centre half then instead of full back with smalling just like the u21's and gibbs at left back, im guessing maybe martin kelly as the future right back or richards?

You forgot about Kyle Walker.

[craney]

^^ My brain really is having one of those days today!! How could i forget him!

[jimbobBRFC]

MY heart cant handle being an ENgland fan. I thought it was the end when we went 2-1 down but for once we actually showed fight to get back into a game. Agree with near enough every point since my last post.

It is a very exciting time to be an England fan and I do hope that for the WC qualifiers Hodgson does bring through the youngsters and starts to try and play more adventourous football. Especially with the likes of Wilshere and Cleverley who are both technically very good footballers. Give all the young ens' plenty of playing time and get the experience ready for the next Euros and we will be very much like Germany, up there with the faviourites.

I think id much prefer to get Spain in the quarters, our style of football at the moment is much mroe suited to beating Spain than it would against Italy. Plus we have beaten Spain before, so that will be in the back of their minds. Cant see us getting further than the quarters but I think with a bit of luck it just might happpen.

[Guest]

I really don't feel confident about Spain, granted the Irish players are not as talented as the English, but the Spaniards were ruthless the other night. They looked like they had 15 players on the pitch when closing the Irish down.

Then again England still need to get past the hosts.

[jimbobBRFC]

I really don't feel confident about Spain, granted the Irish players are not as talented as the English, but the Spaniards were ruthless the other night. They looked like they had 15 players on the pitch when closing the Irish down.

Then again England still need to get past the hosts.

Yeah good point, will be a very tough game against Ukraine I think. Be a massive boost if Shevy is injured

[jimbobBRFC]

I thought we were very poor last night to be honest. Not played poorly but how we were set up to play was poor. Lucky to get the win really, but to win the Euros a fair bit of luck is required. I think we can get a result against Italy if we turn up, althought the Germans will be a completely different ball game.

[Cleon]

For those of you who knock Milner you might want to read this http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/22/euro-2012-james-milner-england

[lam]

For those of you who knock Milner you might want to read this http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/jun/22/euro-2012-james-milner-england

Hell of an article to say "he runs a lot".

I get it, well.... I get the article. He runs alot and he follows instructions..... a little like a player with low creative freedom. With his running he creates space. BUT, other players can do that. Others can run a lot, others can create space.

I think my main concern around this England setup is that we are not playing the players required for the formation. My interpretation, as it stands, is that the Wingbacks, Cole and Johnson, are providing the width and the crossing. One thing is for certain, the two attacking wide players certainly aren't. Young, clearly setup as an inside forward attack is just all over the shop. He creates the space up top on the left which then draws the inevitable run from Cole.... who just loves getting forward. Milner does the same on the right to some degree.... though I think mishmashes it a bit with Johnson who, unlike Cole, likes to cut in. This creates massive gaps at the back.

My worry is, there is no balance and no clear old style wingers and I think we need a little of both.

It's dangerous to have both wingbacks attacking so much. I think this will become evident against a stronger team like Italy, where, with their midfield play, will tire poor old Parker out (I love him as a Spurs fan) and I think we will get left exposed at the back during the later part of the game, if not earlier.

With this lack of early advanced width (assuming it takes a little time for the wingbacks to get forwards each time) comes our lack of passing options, which so often results in the longball forward from Gerrard. Now, I think we might actually do well with this... but more on that later.

Personally I'd like to see at least one advanced out and out winger, someone that can get cross after cross in.... though, I'm not sure we actually have one. If he wants a runner on the right (Milner) then I think he needs to sacrifice the left (Young), who I feel has done nothing in this tournament.

I think we might actually do well with the longball and early crosses if he plays Carroll, who I think has surprised many with his ability to score and to control balls pumped forward. Whilst he is not as creative as Berbatov, I see him fullfilling a similar role as Berb did at United. Heads/chest downs to advanced/oncoming Rooney.

I think that the longball is probably our only chance of doing well. We have proven over the years and once again during this tournament that we lack the passing ability of our comrades in Europe. ALong with this lack of passing ability comes the lack of composure, which for me is driven by the lack of passing ability. We know we can't pass, so we don't. We hoof or we shoot. I'd love to see a stat on how long the ball is in our control in the opposition box or even 1/4 vs the other European teams.

Sure, Gerrard can land the ball on a can of coke on the halfway line from the penalty spot, BUT one passer doesn't make a team. We are direct and I think we need to play direct else we are going out.

I'd like to see Downing in the side or push Gerrard out a little...someone that can cross regularly with Carroll upfront. I think this will compliment our directness. Now whether Rooney plays whole games or we bring on a pace man to drop off Carroll, I don't know but I think Carroll is a must from here, possible even more so than Rooney.

Rambled a bit and it makes horrible reading, but I'm tired so I'm not changing any of it

I think we just need to accept we simply are not going to play pretty football, which is very frustrating as many others are.

All that said.... I do like Hodgsons ability to tactically read the game. I just thought he would have made more changes before each of the following games and it worries me that time for changes has passed.

Regards

LAM

[Cleon]

I'm a fan of Roy's but he got a lot wrong for me tonight.

1) Carroll should have started over Welbeck. Through the tournament set pieces and dead ball situations have been vital. Even more so against the italians as we knew they'd be hard to break down.

2) Young should have gone off not Milner. Milner was out driving force going forward and actually looked a threat with crosses.

If Roy takes the credit for Theo sub against Sweden he has to take the flack for allowing Young to stay on the pitch, he's been poor all tournament really. He shold have gone off not Milner.

[Guest]

What about the CM, they got swamped and dominated.

[sweep17]

I'm a fan of Roy's but he got a lot wrong for me tonight.

1) Carroll should have started over Welbeck. Through the tournament set pieces and dead ball situations have been vital. Even more so against the italians as we knew they'd be hard to break down.

2) Young should have gone off not Milner. Milner was out driving force going forward and actually looked a threat with crosses.

If Roy takes the credit for Theo sub against Sweden he has to take the flack for allowing Young to stay on the pitch, he's been poor all tournament really. He shold have gone off not Milner.

I certainly agree with your second point. As for Carroll over Welbeck I think as soon as Carroll comes on England start lumping long balls to him which gives posession away too easily. This isn't Carrolls fault I think he's good player that offers England another dimension up front but there are better ways of using him.

I don't think 4-4-2 cuts it in international football Italy always had a spare man in midfield and dominated the game. I understand you don't need to dominate possession to win at football however you do need an attacking plan and England didn't have one in the second half. I think that Milner has been badly underated in this tournament by the fans and England were much worse after his substitution, Young or Rooney should have gone. I thought Rooney was really poor again he looked tired and his touch was heavy he should have also been closing Pirlo down who had far too much on the ball.

[Coentrao]

Rooney didn't seem match fit, always a step behind.

Maybe a midfield trio with Carroll upfront would have been a better option, Young was also very poor, still England started the match very well and could have scored on those early 20 minutes.

Also they looked extremely tired on the 2nd half, chasing the ball all the game probably didn't helped in that department too.

[Welsh Wizard]

Agree with Sweep17 England get that mentality when a TM is played up top. Pirlo ran the game and should been closed down and picked up more often than he was. The current set-up is just too deep and England need to get a more of a grip on the game. Two holding CMs in a 2 just won't work if they can't get the wide players in play more often which was cut out as was so predictable. Ball retention is still main issue and it is all of the players. Rooney may drop to help the two but is a lot different than having someonr in the middle. I still feel 442 will work as with most other teams it changes as the game goes on like 451/4411 where as in FM the basic shape is the shape through out. A more of a 41212 is needed on attack and 451 in def.

The time for change is now and there is English players who can step up and be given a chance to win in the future. The players called up may of been the best players but there is some who would give a better chance to play a different way. Cleverley, Wilshire, Ox, Jones, Smalling and Rodwell just to name a few. Getting caught out at the back was a big problem which I put down to Terry and Lescott playing which I pointed out earlier. A better partnership was there but injures and "football issues" prevent the main one of the past. Terry is just too slow and his reading of the game has not been as good as it was. Play deep is needed for him unless helped out with a lot quicker CB. Time for him to go so he can stop getting praise for get backing to solve his own bad judgement and lack of pace to get that problem in the first place. Rio was left out so should of Terry.

CM in a 2 I see Parker or Gerrard not both there is a lack of speed and legs. I seem Gerrard in the deep role rather than his old more attacking role. Jordan Henderson was coming on to relive that but had no impact on the games at all. Jones for Parker would of added something in terms of energy at least. One of the CMs needs to be more attacking and give more freedom. Rooney may impact that but as I guess United will try and do he could be more of a out and out ST and limit his droping deep. Cleverley or Wilshire could fill the more attacking CM. This would leave England more open but closing down futher up the pitch would slow the attacks down and would allow the team to get in there def shape of a 451 which would follow Roy blueprint but with legs in CM the team would not constantly drop deep.

He is a line-up which is possible.

Joe Hart

Kyle Walker Chris Smalling Gary Cahill Leighton Baines(Ashley Cole)

Phil Jones

Theo Walcott Ashley Young

Tom Cleverley

Wayne Rooney Danny Welbeck

Ball rentention would still be main worry with Cahill only Def who is 100% ok with ball at feet and Smalling looking great sometimes but Bambi the next and there is a lack of a out ball other than the long ball wide when getting pressed which I can't really see a fix for. England seem to be closed down really quick which must be down to being too slow on the ball which is down to lack of options. Jones is more of a future CB and maybe Wilshere or Rodwell be better option and would drop deep to give that option. Other teams have similar issues unless your Spain but still find away to control games. I look at the English players and think why can't they play that way and I can't work it out as very low nations can play that way. Don't know if it's cause I'm blinded by watch the Prem and brainwashed by overhyped players but I don't see it that way. Chelsea won CL but were very lucky Gomes did not take his chances and England have been lucky not to be blown away by most the teams they played. Posession may be useless when not creating chances but under Roy every team England played they were getting well outplayed and many chances were created compared to the very few England had just doesn't seem like it works and ever would with out having unbelievable luck.

I look at Italy and see England with better players just about but should of lost by 3 or 4. I don't understand it but can only put it down to mentality and culture that England do not get the best at International level.

[lam]

I was so frustrated and disappointed last night..... what a let down.... hardly surprising, but still not nice when it happens.

I thought Roy's interview after the game was a shocker too. Best thing you can take away with you "The fans......" ffs.... if that it, what the hell did you learn? My wife made an interesting comment that she thought he was just covering his a$$, but after that, as a fan, I just wanted some honesty...... all this rubbish about playing as a team, morale etc etc..... well, that is great IF it gets you somewhere and as Hansen said "England were average in the first match, average in the second match, lucky in the third match and average against Italy, England are Average" (or something like that).

Roy's tactical awareness has shown it's self well 'during' games, or at least it 'appears' to have done so, but after last nights substitutes and the lack of recognizing that Carroll should have been playing and Young not so, I can't help feeling that there certainly was a certain amount of luck involved in the previous games when it came to making the subs.

I said in my previous post he got the starting lineup wrong, we can't pass and we lack composure because of it and last night........ well, last night just showed every single flaw.

Yes, we can defend, but then most teams can when you get 8/9 men behind the ball. From around the 5th minute into the second half we were essentially playing 5/6 at the back. Young was further back then Cole and not just after a forward run from Cole, he was defending deeper than him.

For me a 442 needs a lot of movement and more so if your team are not that good at passing, which, as pointed out, we are not. Movement has to be sideways, probably more so than forwards all the time. And this again was evident............the long ball forwards. I don't mind it when it was actually to Carroll, however we did it all the time in everygame....... which again highlights the glaring error of not starting Carroll in more games. I think had he done so, he probably would have taken Rooney off and replaced him with either Wellbeck or Defoe.... which would have been interesting with the amount of knocks that Carroll got.

Though it's down to, and I come back it it again, passing and composure. We had neither and unless there are some serious changes made, we'll have neither. I'm not sure if it's a 'chicken and egg' situation insomuch that are we bad at passing because we lack composure or do we lack composure because we are bad at passing.

Tournament and previous games aside and talking about last night alone, for me the glaring errors are:

1. Continually allowing Pirlo to run the game - not sure if this is player error or manager error.

2. Wrong line up again. Carroll should have started and probably with a pace man .... (doubt we'll ever find a manager confident enough to leave Rooney out).

3. Wrong players eventually subbed.

On a funnier note, if anyone happens to actually watch the game back (thought, you need some help if you do), I am sure there was a comment on the 6th minute or so in extra time where Mark said "It's not hard BITC(H), just pass the ball to feet". I rewound and it still sounded the same..... the only thing that made me smile in that match

*edit* for what it's worth, I thought our best players were Cole and Johnson which probably tells you something about our team when two wingbacks are the best (for me at least).

[ricardomac]

I didn't watch the game last night. Only the penalty shootout. But I must say that I got disappointed. I wanted England to go through. It would be cool to see England face Germany. I hate penaltys.

[Cleon]

I thought Roy's interview after the game was a shocker too. Best thing you can take away with you "The fans......" ffs.... if that it, what the hell did you learn? My wife made an interesting comment that she thought he was just covering his a$$, but after that, as a fan, I just wanted some honesty...... all this rubbish about playing as a team, morale etc etc..... well, that is great IF it gets you somewhere and as Hansen said "England were average in the first match, average in the second match, lucky in the third match and average against Italy, England are Average" (or something like that).

I thought Roy got the interview spot on. He was a late appointment and a surprise to get the job. So For someone who's had no preperation time at all and to get to the quarter finals he did a good job. England have never been past the quarts in the Euros so to equal all the other managers who tried at his first attempt he should recieve some credit.

It doesn't matter how you win aslong as you win. If it was about playing nice attractive football then Spain and Holland would have dominated world football. He was actually playing to our strengths, we have a **** international side really, if the rankings were proper we'd not even be a top 15 side.

What was he supposed to say to the media? C'mon when as a manager ever sat their and admitted or told the truth? It very rarely happens.

We did play poor but he also wasn't lying when he said morale was good and the players were playing for each other. Since Euro 96 no other manager as managed to get the players to play like that. Sven, Mclaren, Capello all failed to get them as a unit. You could argue that they played a little better but I believe they also had players at the top of their games playing for England back then and in their primes.

Hodgson asn't had the time to put his stamp on England yet or select the players that he believes will work come Brazil 2014.

Roy's tactical awareness has shown it's self well 'during' games, or at least it 'appears' to have done so, but after last nights substitutes and the lack of recognizing that Carroll should have been playing and Young not so, I can't help feeling that there certainly was a certain amount of luck involved in the previous games when it came to making the subs.

Every manager makes bad decisions and gets the calls wrong at times. He was awesome according to most against Sweden when he brought Walcott on. Yet he gets it wrong last night then people feel he has been lucky? I don't think so. He just made the wrong calls last night thats all. It happens, its part of football and nodount will happen again.

I said in my previous post he got the starting lineup wrong, we can't pass and we lack composure because of it and last night........ well, last night just showed every single flaw.

I agree.

Young had a really poor game infact he's had a really bad tournament in fairness.

For me a 442 needs a lot of movement and more so if your team are not that good at passing, which, as pointed out, we are not. Movement has to be sideways, probably more so than forwards all the time. And this again was evident............the long ball forwards.

Yeah this annoyed me at times we gave possession away far too easily and allowed teams to build attacks against us straight away.

I don't mind it when it was actually to Carroll, however we did it all the time in everygame....... which again highlights the glaring error of not starting Carroll in more games. I think had he done so, he probably would have taken Rooney off and replaced him with either Wellbeck or Defoe.... which would have been interesting with the amount of knocks that Carroll got.

Spot on here.

Rooney was poor and last night was kept on for reputation he must have. I'd have loved to see Carroll on from the start as he could have linked up well with Welbeck/Defoe. Although I would have preffered Defoe as he is more capable of stetching the defence and getting beyond them. Welbeck for me plays different and is good at creating space by drifting to the channels but this doesn't work for us as we had no midfield runners.

Though it's down to, and I come back it it again, passing and composure. We had neither and unless there are some serious changes made, we'll have neither. I'm not sure if it's a 'chicken and egg' situation insomuch that are we bad at passing because we lack composure or do we lack composure because we are bad at passing.

We always look to rush. The players think they are playing in the Prem which there not

Tournament and previous games aside and talking about last night alone, for me the glaring errors are:

1. Continually allowing Pirlo to run the game - not sure if this is player error or manager error.

2. Wrong line up again. Carroll should have started and probably with a pace man .... (doubt we'll ever find a manager confident enough to leave Rooney out).

3. Wrong players eventually subbed.

Can't argue against any of those.

I think Roy will get it right but needs more time to select a squad he wants and thinks can play the style he wishes.

I have no doubt that he'll start selecting Walker, Rodwell, Wilshire, Cleverley and a few others in the coming qualifiers as he will build for the future. I think this tournament Roy did what he could with a limited squad.

It also doesn't help that EPL is a tough league so our players get jaded far faster than the other teams. It's something we need to accept, that unless the players get a reasonable break before a tournament we'll never win one as other countries are fresher especially on the WC stage.

[DeadPanda]

I'd have to agree with most of that really. As you say, the glaring errors were obvious. Even after the first half that saw Pirlo have so much space, we continued to leave him be in the second. Long kicks forward to no one. aimless passing, yet we continued to do it throughout. I thought for a moment we might have changed things up a little in teh second half but in the end, that wasnt really to be. Poor passing and players playing poorly, as you say - Rooney's inclusion had no foundation of reason in my opinion. He scored a goal last time out but was way off his best then too. As you say, reputation counts for more than form nowadays (I'd still of taken Holt to the Euro's, along with others like M.Richards, but maybe I'm biased).

As I said after the game to a friend - why bother training penalties? Our time would be better spent learning to pass, then we might not of had to of taken it to penalties, something we were lucky to do in the first place.

[lam]

I think Hodgson has got some difficult times ahead of him and I think the first thing that will need addressing following the Euro 2012 is "HOW" we want to play. Does it he want, as suggested by just about everyone here, to mix many new players in and try for more of a passing game or does he want to perfect the direct play to a strong/tall striker?

Either would work, providing enough effort is put in. Though, each comes with it's own problems. Filtering the play to or through a single man (Carroll) is dangerous if they get injured. Trying to pass and play a possession game against likes of Germany and Spain isn't going to be easy............but either way, I think a path has to be chosen.

I appreciate some of the defensive comments you made about Hodgson in relation to my comments, but..... he has had his chance, he has had his warm up, he has had the chance to tinker...... things will now be expected.

If he wants to play a 442 then he has to get the players to understand how to play it. I imagine that some of those players on the field have either never played a 442 or have not played it for 5/6 years+. They have to get out of the "I have to do this myself and run towards the goal" mentality and get more into the "If I move sideways, if I do that I create space for XYZ to move into and pull two markers with me, I wont see the ball, but it will work".

That or he has to play a formation that allows us to pass better even though we are not that good at passing. Put some men in the holes. Given how we setup, I don't understand how or why Parker didnt see deep as a DMC Anchor with Gerrard in front of him or even vice versa depending on how the opposition were closing down. With Rooney becoming desperate, he was playing deeper and deeper thus playing him as an AMC might have worked. Immediately we are playing the triangles like this and I wouldn't suggest that this requires no movement from players, but (imho) it requires 'less' movement than a 442 does.

Maybe after Cleons thread and my gaming as a 442 with Spurs...maybe I was just really excited to see a 442 do well in the modern game...........

I hope that Hodgson does have the tactical nouse that I thought he had in the earlier games, I really do, because if he has, by jove, I think he could do something with England. If however, it is a case of lucky subs, and not making the right changes for the following game then I think we are going to continue to struggle.... .regardless of team afinity. Also.... how long will that team affinity last when he starts dropping the stars (assuming he does). How will Rooney feel when he gets dropped for Carroll and Wellbeck.....

Don't get me wrong........... it's a tough job.... and funnily enough, a very similar situation to where we find ourselves with our Rugby team 6 months ago...... the old guard are starting to show their grey....... the young guns coming through are probably not 'quite' up to the task........ but a decision needs to be made.....

Regards

[sweep17]

I hope Hodgson goes full tilt for his preferred 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 formation picking the right players for the right role. England have tended to go down the "shoe horn as many of your best players into some sort of formation and hope skill/passion of the individuals will win through" method. I think in modern international football the sum of the team has become increasingly more important than individuals Spain and Germany have shown this. Messi and Argentina's failure in 2010 has shown that even great players need a great team around them (Messi is the best player I have seen).

I think Hodgson's performance at euro 2012 was pretty good considering the chaotic preparations. England looked like a good team in the first half of a lot of the games. The second halves weren't so good which may be down to player fatigue or the players gradually losing their shape and discipline as the game went on?

[fyrefuze]

A good read - Death of 442 - summarizing the tactics of all EURO teams.