FM 2019 - Bruno Lage Benfica Tactic Recreation

[kurupted]

Hello!

 

Many people have this questions, how can we recreate Bruno Lage tactic ? For those who don't know, Bruno Lage is the new "hero" of Sport Lisbon Benfica and the Portuguese League, and why ? Cause the previous manager, Rui Vitória, got sacked, and when B. Lage start managing the team, Benfica were 7 points behind, he won in FC Porto and Sporting stadium, he won even 10-0 with amazing football.

A previous note: my english is not perfect, i will try my best to explain.

 

 

First of all, we need to understand how Benfica plays.

As you can see, we have the 2 Central Backs, who pivot each other, both of them, Ferro and Ruben Dias, tend to pass to players forward in order to make a pass that can break the opposition defense, we will not see this always in Benfica matches, but they pass that way a lot.

Next, we have the 2 midfield line, Gabriel and Samaris, they pivot each other, they are the players who try to recover the ball when the opposition gets in possession, Gabriel is the men who can do that great direct passes, passes that can be trough space and break the defensive line, Samaris, in the other hand, is the anchor man, he is more defensive, sometimes he does one or two amazing passes to the men in front. In this midfield, we need to pay attention, that Gabriel DOES NOT roam, he stays everytime close to Samaris, they pivot each other.

Next, we have the 2 fullbacks, the men that are hughing the line, in possession, Benfica uses the fullbacks in the line and as you can see, the 2 wide men, they play in the half-space, they play in a more interior space, and this creates a 2x1, with the Fullback and the Winger. Both wingers play side by side with the fullbacks.

Finally, we have the 2 strikers, as you can see, Seferovic is more a worker type, he is the striker that runs behind the defense, while João Félix hes more a False 9 kind off, he tends to roam a lot, he plays behind midfield back.

Another example, now against Porto:

 

Now, this is interesting:

 

 

Benfica tens to play a lot in the wings, the Fullback usually can make a run behind the defense and go for a cross, but, Benfica plays A LOT in the half-spaces as i said before. As you can see, Florentino goes for a pass to a man that is in the half-space, this could be the strikers or even the wingers, like i said, both wingers play in half-spaces, they go for a more interior position. In this case, when seferovic has the ball, João Félix, the other man that is circled, goes for a run behind the defense.

 

 

Boom, when Seferovic receives the ball in half-space, João Félix goes for a run behind the defense and catches the ball. Everytime the ball reaches into the men in the half-space (Wingers or strikers) when they have a good position and can do a good pass, the others do a run behind the defense, if one winger receives the ball, someone tries to run behind the defense, if 1 striker receives the ball in the half space, another player (winger or striker) goes for a run behind the defense.

 

As you can see, they are very wide, Benfica players tend to switch the ball into the opposite flank, so they can exploit better any breach, and when they see a breach, when one player receives the ball in the half-space, the others do a run behind the defense.

Another example, Joao Felix receives the ball in the half-space, and then Seferovic, the other striker, goes for a run behind the defense:

 

Same thing, same position, both fulbacks hughing the line, strikers are in front of the 2 opposite central backs, and the 2 wingers are in the back of the midfield, they play in the half-space. An interesting thing, as you can see, there are 6 PLAYERS, i repeat 6 Benfica players, against a 4 defensive line, if the midfield doesnt drop deep to help, this happens:

 

Boom, Gabriel had the ball, and the left full-back goes for a run, as you can see, the opposite midfield didn't drop in time, and they created a 2x1 in the wing, the fullback cross and Benfica scored 1 goal:

 

 

Another example, same position, when a player receives the ball in the half-space, behind the midfield, someone goes for a run behind the defense.

 

 

Boom, as you can see, João Felix, the other striker, goes for a run behind the defense and Benfica scores another.

As you can see, this is how Benfica play's. I analyzed how Benfica plays in possession, they are very fluid, very creative, they do not play a rigid football, they do a lot of movement, sometimes the winger switches position with the respective side fullback.

Seeing this, we can now imagine how we can put this into FM.

 

 

Starting by the goalkeeper, Vlachodimos isnt an usual Sweeper Keeper, he plays good with the ball on his feet, but he often plays to the central-backs, so they can play out of the defence.

The 2 Central-Backs, i have 1 Ball Playing Defender, he is the player who can sometimes do the tricky pass to someone in front, probably we can use 2 Ball Playing Defenders.

Both wingbacks, i have them in Complete Wing Back, their natural instinct is too run forward, this means, when we are in possession, the fullbacks will be very far in the pitch, close to the line, with both wingers in half-space, this creates a 2x1, i was considering playing both fullbacks in Attack duty but i have an Attack mentality, so no.

Next, we have the 2 line of midfield. As i said before, they pivot each other, so this means that Gabriel isn't a player that roams, he stands side by side with Samaris, Samaris is an anchor man, a more defensive player, while Gabriel does that pass in space, a more direct pass, as we seen before in first Benfica goal against Sporting, he has a very good vision and can do that a lot of times.

Both Wingers, i have Wide Playmakers, and why Wide Playmakers ? I have seen many people use Inverted Wingers, but in possession, Benfica DOES NOT have both wingers hughing the line, they stay in the half-space, only the full backs hugh the line. As we seen before, when any player receives the ball in the half-space, the others go for a run behind the defence, thats why i chose both in attack duty. Their role has already codified More Risky Passes and stay in more interior positions.

Now, both strikers, as i said before, Seferovic is different from João Félix. João Félix has more freedom, he tends to play in a lot of places, but he ofters play in the half-spaces, and when he receives the ball in the half-space, Seferovic goes for a run behind the defence, João Félix is a very gifted player, has a very good tecnic, vision and very good pass, he knows very well where he should be.

 

 

Now i will talk about TI's. First, i wanted to play in Attack mentality, cause i want my players to do risky passes, without risky passes there are not balls through, there are not balls in space, when i used positive mentality i analyzed that when someone receives the ball in space, they chose not to pass to another player because they aren't doing a run behind the defence. I chose, slightly shorter passing, cause they don't play a very shorter pass, sometimes, there are direct passes, but Gabriel is the man that does that. I chose Pass into space, obvious reasons, work ball into box, obvious reasons, be more expressive and focus play trough middle. When i chose this option, i wanted my players to receive the ball into the half-space, this does not mean that the ball will not be played into the fullbacks, it's a thing that in some matches i have Focus Play Through Middle and others Play Trough the Wide Areas.

 

So this is it, its my analyzis of Bruno Lage's Benfica, sorry for my horrible english, i tried my best, if someone has any question, feel free to ask

 

 

[Jean0987654321]

I'm not too sure if having three ball-magnets in midfield is a good idea. I would've opt for a WM role w/ Sit Narrower to get the wingers in the middle.

[davidbarros2]

As a lifelong Porto fan I watch almost all of Benfica games and in fact they play a very good brand of football.

Regarding player roles I can make a few observations:

• André Almeida (right back) - not even close to a complete wing back. I would say FB (S) or WB (D), most adventurous guess would be WB (S)
• Ruben Dias and Jardel/Ferro (centre backs) - regular centre backs, nothing fancy about them
• Pizzi (right midfielder) - wide midfielder on support with PI's to mimic a wide playmaker, perhaps with get further forward
• Rafa (left midfielder) - mostly an atacking inverted winger. I would put him in wide midfielder on attack with PI's to make him act as an inverted winger
• João Félix (forward) - the player role you assigned him could work (i like it ) but I would put him in AM strata as a Trequartista (just like Foriestieri used to play for Sheffield Wednesday under Carvalhal - Lage's former boss)
• Seferovic (forward) - he doesn't run with the ball nor does he play very high on the pitch, so I would opt out of advanced forward or poacher. He's not technically very gifted and he's a workhorse, probably DFL on attack or defensive forward on attack

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, Jean0987654321 disse:

I'm not too sure if having three ball-magnets in midfield is a good idea. I would've opt for a WM role w/ Sit Narrower to get the wingers in the middle.

Thats precisely what i want. i want the ball going around, but i want precisely that one of the midfielders, or even the fullback pass to one of those who are in the half-space, so the others can do a run behind the defence. A WM role, probably in attack duty with getting further forward, could work, but i don't think he will be in the half-space, i will give a try.

 

42 minutos atrás, davidbarros2 disse:

As a lifelong Porto fan I watch almost all of Benfica games and in fact they play a very good brand of football.

Regarding player roles I can make a few observations:

• André Almeida (right back) - not even close to a complete wing back. I would say FB (S) or WB (D), most adventurous guess would be WB (S)
• Ruben Dias and Jardel/Ferro (centre backs) - regular centre backs, nothing fancy about them
• Pizzi (right midfielder) - wide midfielder on support with PI's to mimic a wide playmaker, perhaps with get further forward
• Rafa (left midfielder) - mostly an atacking inverted winger. I would put him in wide midfielder on attack with PI's to make him act as an inverted winger
• João Félix (forward) - the player role you assigned him could work (i like it ) but I would put him in AM strata as a Trequartista (just like Foriestieri used to play for Sheffield Wednesday under Carvalhal - Lage's former boss)
• Seferovic (forward) - he doesn't run with the ball nor does he play very high on the pitch, so I would opt out of advanced forward or poacher. He's not technically very gifted and he's a workhorse, probably DFL on attack or defensive forward on attack

 

1. We all know Andre Almeida isn't as a offensive fullback as Grimaldo is, but thats not i want, Andre Almeida does the exact same thing with the exact same position as Grimaldo, i can't replicate the way André Almeida plays and still maintain the position. If i play André Almeida in Wing Back role, he will not be far up in the pitch, that's the problem. In Benfica games, both fullbacks do crosses, one more than another some games, but both do the exact same thing.

2. Ruben Dias has much more technic than Jardel, Jardel is a more simple centre back that Ruben Dias is, Ruben Dias often has the ball on his feet and he pushes forward himself, doing sometimes a long pass, something that Jardel never does. When Ferro plays alongside Ruben Dias, Ferro has more technic than Jardel, and Ferro, we have seen it sometimes, he can do a good long pass.

3. Pizzi isn't a wide playmaker, neither Rafa is. In the picture i shown, in every game, both wingers stay in the half-space, more interior space, they look to be behind the midfield line, the wingers DOES NOT hugh the line, what they can do is, they switch position with the fullback. Pizzi sometimes can switch position with Andre Almeida and Rafa with Grimaldo, we have seen it happen.

4. Rafa same thing, when he receives the ball, he cuts inside, the problem is, if you play him Inverted Winger, Rafa will hugh the line, and thats not how Benfica plays, none of the wingers hugh the line. I understand your point saying that Pizzi needs to be on support and Rafa on attack duty, but both of them do runs behind the defense. When a player receives the ball in the half-space, i don't him to be selfish and just shoot, i want the others to run behind, and i can achieve that with attack duty. Playing Rafa with attack duty is useless, is Player Traits will do the exact same thing in support duty.

5. João Felix can play a huge amount of roles. False 9, DLF even Trequartista, they are all (somehow) the same, the role that i didn't like was False 9, cause from what i saw, he gets too disconnected with the Seferovic. DLF-Attack works well, probably Trequartista will to.

6. Seferovic very often breaks the defensive line, doing a run behind the defense. The only difference is that Seferovic runs behind the ball when he doesn't have. Seferovic is a workhorse like you said. Playing him as a "lonely" striker doesn't make much sense.

[andre62]

kurupted

 

can you share the tactic for give a try please?

[Keyzer Soze]

The beauty of football is that anyone see it in a different way.

As a Benfica fan, I've watched, with joy, many games this season, and I must confess that my view of the tactic is very different from yours. 

Goalkeeper:

Odisseias is not a sweeper keeper, unfortunately, because in some games we could avoid some probrl3if he plays further up the pitch. 

He plays always inside the box, taking very little risks. A plain and simple goalkeeper with defence duty. 

 

Right back:

André Almeida is more a fullback with support duty. Yes he goes up the pitch, but always with less risk when compare with Grimaldo on the left. Whe don't see him roam from position. 

I some games he play more like wingback, getting more up the pitch, but most of the time he plays like a fullback. 

 

Left back:

In here I agree with you, Grimaldo is a complete wingback, but for me he plays with a attack duty. 

 

Centerbacks:

Ferro and Ruben Dias, make a very solid back line. Ferro, imo, his a perfect ball playing defender. He tries long passes a lot this season. 

Ruben Dias is central defender. However he does try to bring the ball from the defence, so that trait his a must to emulate the way he plays. 

 

Center midfield:

The most common line up in the center midfield was the combo Gabriel + Samaris. For me this is DLP(s) + BWM(s) combination. Yes, both on support. 

Gabriel, the DLP, must have the trait to switch the ball to the other flank. Samaris, the BWM, must have the instruction to hold position and dribble less. 

 

Right Midfiled:

100% agree with you. Pizzi is a wide playmaker, but I'll give him a attack duty. Bare in mind that then WP(a) don't get further forward by default, and Pizzi have the trait to come deep to get the ball. 

 

Left Midfield:

The left midfielder, usually Rafa, is not a wide playmaker. He plays very close to the box, many times acting like a second forward. I would use him as a inverted winger on attack. I would make him learn the trait to get into the opponent box.

 

Forwards:

To me this is no brainer. Felix is a trequartista playing in the attacking midfield strata and Severovic is a pressing forward with attack duty. 

 

In relation with team instructions, I agree with some that you've choose, but some I don't think make much sense in the way Benfica plays. 

For example, I don't see Benfica preventing the opponent goalkeeper distribution, I don't see the team, as a whole, pressing more urgently, I don't see the team focus the passing through the middle or being extremely wide. In fact I don't even think that play with a mentality so attacking because they don't rush the play that much. 

So, I would probably go with something like this:

Mentality: positive

Instructions: pass into space, work ball into the box, whipped crosses, be more expressive, distribute to center backs and full backs, counter-press, counter, higher d-line, higher LOE, use offside trap. 

 

Like I said I the beginning, everyone sees football in a different way. I don't even think if this could work in football manager, but, with the tools that FM gives us, this is the way I would try to simulate Bruno Lage tactic. 

[andre62]

if you can share the tactic for give a try please thanks
 

[Experienced Defender]

@Keyzer Soze Your tactic makes a lot more sense than the OP one from both FM and RL football perspectives, except for the left flank, which would be extremely exposed by having the CWB and IW both on attack duty. 

[Keyzer Soze]

25 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

@Keyzer Soze Your tactic makes a lot more sense than the OP one from both FM and RL football perspectives, except for the left flank, which would be extremely exposed by having the CWB and IW both on attack duty. 

Yes, I realize that the left flank would be very exposed, but irl Benfica took lots of risks with Grimaldo and Rafa playing there. Many times we would see them going up side by side leaving big area exposed in the back. 

That was compensated by, Samaris that cover that side, and by the left center back that slightly drift to that side. That's why I think Samaris plays IRL as a BWM because he needs to cover a big area in that midfield. 

But, that risk cost Benfica, for example, the semi final in the Portuguese cup, where a bad transition in the left side, with Grimaldo trying to run with the ball, and with Rafa already up in the pitch, lost possession to Bruno Fernandes that scored a great goal. 

Lage tactics have some issues in transitions, in particular in defensive transitions, but in possession, it produces beautiful football. I think that this set-up that I made also suffers from the same issues. 

[kurupted]

2 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

The beauty of football is that anyone see it in a different way.

As a Benfica fan, I've watched, with joy, many games this season, and I must confess that my view of the tactic is very different from yours. 

Goalkeeper:

Odisseias is not a sweeper keeper, unfortunately, because in some games we could avoid some probrl3if he plays further up the pitch. 

He plays always inside the box, taking very little risks. A plain and simple goalkeeper with defence duty. 

 

Right back:

André Almeida is more a fullback with support duty. Yes he goes up the pitch, but always with less risk when compare with Grimaldo on the left. Whe don't see him roam from position. 

I some games he play more like wingback, getting more up the pitch, but most of the time he plays like a fullback. 

 

Left back:

In here I agree with you, Grimaldo is a complete wingback, but for me he plays with a attack duty. 

 

Centerbacks:

Ferro and Ruben Dias, make a very solid back line. Ferro, imo, his a perfect ball playing defender. He tries long passes a lot this season. 

Ruben Dias is central defender. However he does try to bring the ball from the defence, so that trait his a must to emulate the way he plays. 

 

Center midfield:

The most common line up in the center midfield was the combo Gabriel + Samaris. For me this is DLP(s) + BWM(s) combination. Yes, both on support. 

Gabriel, the DLP, must have the trait to switch the ball to the other flank. Samaris, the BWM, must have the instruction to hold position and dribble less. 

 

Right Midfiled:

100% agree with you. Pizzi is a wide playmaker, but I'll give him a attack duty. Bare in mind that then WP(a) don't get further forward by default, and Pizzi have the trait to come deep to get the ball. 

 

Left Midfield:

The left midfielder, usually Rafa, is not a wide playmaker. He plays very close to the box, many times acting like a second forward. I would use him as a inverted winger on attack. I would make him learn the trait to get into the opponent box.

 

Forwards:

To me this is no brainer. Felix is a trequartista playing in the attacking midfield strata and Severovic is a pressing forward with attack duty. 

 

In relation with team instructions, I agree with some that you've choose, but some I don't think make much sense in the way Benfica plays. 

For example, I don't see Benfica preventing the opponent goalkeeper distribution, I don't see the team, as a whole, pressing more urgently, I don't see the team focus the passing through the middle or being extremely wide. In fact I don't even think that play with a mentality so attacking because they don't rush the play that much. 

So, I would probably go with something like this:

Mentality: positive

Instructions: pass into space, work ball into the box, whipped crosses, be more expressive, distribute to center backs and full backs, counter-press, counter, higher d-line, higher LOE, use offside trap. 

 

Like I said I the beginning, everyone sees football in a different way. I don't even think if this could work in football manager, but, with the tools that FM gives us, this is the way I would try to simulate Bruno Lage tactic. 

I don't agree with you in some aspects.

About the Goalkeeper, i don't agree with you, he isnt the simple gk that throws the ball into the midfield and hopes someone of his team gets it, he often receives the ball and plays shortly to his center backs or fullbacks. The simple gk role doesn't give me that.

About the fullbacks, André Almeida and Grimaldo, i agree with you, in real life, Grimaldo is a lot more creative, a lot more incisive than A. Almeida is, the problem is, as you know, FM tries to simulate real-life management. As i shown in my previous picture, both fullbacks hugh the line very far in the pitch, Grimaldo is more offensive and Andre Almeida is not, you suggest playing Wing-Back ? Well, you just need to see that the wing-back in a FM match does not stay far up in the patch as the CWB, the problem is that. If you play like that, you will see Grimaldo very high up in the pitch and Andre Almeida doesnt not hugh the line and by that you can't create a 2x1 with pizzi.

Center-backs, Ferro is indeed a BPD, and Ruben Dias is a BPD too, why ? Cause the BPD role give the "permission" to try long range passes, as Ferro does per example, but the BPD role also gives the permission to the center-back push forward with the ball on his feet, with the cimple CB role normally he will try to pass short and thats it.

With the midfield, i have tried DLP (s) and DLP (d), i have tried BWM, MC(d), BWM is a valid option.

About the 2 wingers. Well, you need to understand something. Both Rafa and Pizzi stay in the half-space, as you see in the pictures, by that, you cant simply use an Inverted Winger role, and why ? Cause the Inverted Winger role doesn't play like he does in real-life. Play Rafa in that role and you will see him often trying to dribble, shoot from far and losing the ball very often, i explained before, when someone receives the ball in the half-space, the others make a run behind the defence. Besides that, the Inverted Winger hughs the line in possession, i don't want that. 

About the strikers, i tried J. Félix in DLF, Trequartista, False 9, DLF and Trequartista are valid options. Sometimes i use False 9 in some specific games.

 

Like i explained before, FM isn't real-life management, you cant simply tell players to do specific stuff. The roles you chose in the game will translate in a coded player movimentation, like i said before, Rafa with an inverted winger will try to dribble, you just need to watch 1 or 2 matches and you will understand that both Pizzi and Rafa stay in the half-space, the Inverted Winger doesn't give me that.

[Keyzer Soze]

9 hours ago, kurupted said:

Like i explained before, FM isn't real-life management, you cant simply tell players to do specific stuff. The roles you chose in the game will translate in a coded player movimentation, like i said before, Rafa with an inverted winger will try to dribble, you just need to watch 1 or 2 matches and you will understand that both Pizzi and Rafa stay in the half-space, the Inverted Winger doesn't give me that.

Like i said, everyone has their own interpretation. Mine is just different from yours. 

I just get the feeling that you got a little bit lost between trying to emulate Lage tactic and making a tactic that worked in FM.

[zlatanera]

If Vlachodimos doesn't really get outside of his area, but also does actually try to play the ball a little bit then OP has got it perfect with SK-De - that role is slightly more of a passer than G-De, but isn't going to be running around near half-way like Neuer despite the SK name. 

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Like i said, everyone has their own interpretation. Mine is just different from yours. 

I just get the feeling that you got a little bit lost between trying to emulate Lage tactic and making a tactic that worked in FM.

And thats precisely the problem. My main objective is to emulate how Benfica players behave in possession and with ball in feet. If its a tactic that work in FM ? Probably needs to be adjusted in some aspects.

1 hora atrás, zlatanera disse:

If Vlachodimos doesn't really get outside of his area, but also does actually try to play the ball a little bit then OP has got it perfect with SK-De - that role is slightly more of a passer than G-De, but isn't going to be running around near half-way like Neuer despite the SK name. 

Vlachodimos does get in the edge of the box when Benfica has the ball high in the pitch.

Like i said, Vlachodimos isnt a SK like Ter-Stegen maybe, or Ederson, but he does plays more with his feet to his teammates than a regular goalkeeper.

[Experienced Defender]

13 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Yes, I realize that the left flank would be very exposed, but irl Benfica took lots of risks with Grimaldo and Rafa playing there. Many times we would see them going up side by side leaving big area exposed in the back. 

I would then opt for a CWB on support (or even WB on support) and IW on attack, but with the Overlap left TI. That would make them both play on (individual) attacking mentality. Just a suggestion to consider, nothing more than that 

[kurupted]

2 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

I would then opt for a CWB on support (or even WB on support) and IW on attack, but with the Overlap left TI. That would make them both play on (individual) attacking mentality. Just a suggestion to consider, nothing more than that 

I dont think so, Grimaldo often gets into opposition area, sometimes even in places where he is facing 1x1 the goalkeeper

[Experienced Defender]

7 minutes ago, kurupted said:

I dont think so, Grimaldo often gets into opposition area, sometimes even in places where he is facing 1x1 the goalkeeper

What exactly don't you agree with? I mean, you are the one that set him as a CWB on support in your opening post.

[kurupted]

4 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

What exactly don't you agree with? I mean, you are the one that set him as a CWB on support in your opening post.

I didnt agree when you said WB-Support xD

And with the Overlap, overlaping means that Rafa will wait on Grimaldo to be far up in the pitch and i dont want that kind of football. Like i said in my original post, Benfica likes to play in half-spaces.

[Experienced Defender]

39 minutes ago, kurupted said:

with the Overlap, overlaping means that Rafa will wait on Grimaldo to be far up in the pitch and i dont want that kind of football

Don't interpret instructions so literally. They are not set in stone, and primarily serve to encourage certain types of behavior from players in situations when it makes sense. So if you have an overlap (or underlap) activated, it does not mean that Rafa will always hold up the ball and wait for Grimaldo to arrive for an overlap or underlap. That's not how things work in FM (nor in real-life football).

I frequently use overlaps not in order to create actual overlaps, but to make more dynamic interplay on the flanks by slightly increasing the fullback's/wing-back's mentality and slightly reducing that of the wide forward/wide midfielder (which is what both overlaps and underlaps do). 

47 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Like i said in my original post, Benfica likes to play in half-spaces

Okay, but what does it have to do with overlaps/underlaps?

[kingjericho]

I posted about Lage's setup a few days ago. I think his tactic has many similarities to the Arrigo Sacchi style.

 

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Don't interpret instructions so literally. They are not set in stone, and primarily serve to encourage certain types of behavior from players in situations when it makes sense. So if you have an overlap (or underlap) activated, it does not mean that Rafa will always hold up the ball and wait for Grimaldo to arrive for an overlap or underlap. That's not how things work in FM (nor in real-life football).

I frequently use overlaps not in order to create actual overlaps, but to make more dynamic interplay on the flanks by slightly increasing the fullback's/wing-back's mentality and slightly reducing that of the wide forward/wide midfielder (which is what both overlaps and underlaps do). 

Okay, but what does it have to do with overlaps/underlaps?

It has to do with overlaps because isn't Rafa that searchs and waits for Grimaldo, it's Gabriel that often does a direct pass into grimaldo. Rafa does it too, but not in the same way that Gabriel does.

[kurupted]

1 hora atrás, kingjericho disse:

I posted about Lage's setup a few days ago. I think his tactic has many similarities to the Arrigo Sacchi style.

 

Can you please share the link of your post ?

[warlock]

1 hour ago, kurupted said:

Can you please share the link of your post ?

It's the last post in the thread. Click the 'kingjericho replied to a topic' line.

[Keyzer Soze]

8 hours ago, kingjericho said:

I posted about Lage's setup a few days ago. I think his tactic has many similarities to the Arrigo Sacchi style.

 

Very nice interpretation of Benfica tactic. 

I only have doubts about the right midfield position, where I think Pizzi don't play as a winger but more like a third central midfielder, and the forward position, because with a CF on support I don't think you will explore the back of the opponent defense, like Severovic do irl. 

 

Edit: nevermid both comments. After reading the rest of the post, I realize that you already cover those two situations. 

Great job 

[kurupted]

4 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Very nice interpretation of Benfica tactic. 

I only have doubts about the right midfield position, where I think Pizzi don't play as a winger but more like a third central midfielder, and the forward position, because with a CF on support I don't think you will explore the back of the opponent defense, like Severovic do irl. 

 

Edit: nevermid both comments. After reading the rest of the post, I realize that you already cover those two situations. 

Great job 

There are something in that tactic, and even in things that you said that i completely don't agree and doesn't replicate in FM what players do.

You talked about Samaris being a BWM on Support Duty ? No, completely no.

Samaris is indeed a more defensive player, but there are many roles in FM that can be defensive instead of using BWM. The DLP-D is defensive too, but it has 1 difference. The ball goes much more to the DLPs than the BWM. If you see 1 match with DLP-S (gabriel) and BWM-S (samaris) you will notice that Samaris will not have any contribute to the offensive game, his only job is to make sure he recover the ball and keep possession, and i don't think that is Samaris role. Like i said, real-life role can be replicate in FM in many many roles, you can't look at the name of the role, you need to look at how a certain player will play under that role.

You need to understand that in FM, a DLP-S or even an AP-S is a "ball magnet". When you use Gabriel as a DLP-S and Samaris as a BWM, Gabriel will be the ball magnetic, and Benfica doesn't have a "real" playmaker, Gabriel is one playmaker yes, but Samaris can be too.

[kurupted]

4 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Very nice interpretation of Benfica tactic. 

I only have doubts about the right midfield position, where I think Pizzi don't play as a winger but more like a third central midfielder, and the forward position, because with a CF on support I don't think you will explore the back of the opponent defense, like Severovic do irl. 

 

Edit: nevermid both comments. After reading the rest of the post, I realize that you already cover those two situations. 

Great job 

Play Félix as an AM ? With Seferovic as a CF ?

Hmmm.... no.

[kurupted]

4 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

Very nice interpretation of Benfica tactic. 

I only have doubts about the right midfield position, where I think Pizzi don't play as a winger but more like a third central midfielder, and the forward position, because with a CF on support I don't think you will explore the back of the opponent defense, like Severovic do irl. 

 

Edit: nevermid both comments. After reading the rest of the post, I realize that you already cover those two situations. 

Great job 

If you want me to know, i don't really think that Trequartista replicates the real-life role of João Félix.

[Experienced Defender]

11 hours ago, kurupted said:

It has to do with overlaps because isn't Rafa that searchs and waits for Grimaldo, it's Gabriel that often does a direct pass into grimaldo. Rafa does it too, but not in the same way that Gabriel does

Overlaps/underlaps do not affect central players (like Gabriel in this case), but only wide ones. So Gabriel can make direct (or whatever) passes to Grimaldo, regardless of overlaps/underlaps. But that actually does not matter a lot, since your tactic is full of a lot more glaring issues than this one.

[kurupted]

11 minutos atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Overlaps/underlaps do not affect central players (like Gabriel in this case), but only wide ones. So Gabriel can make direct (or whatever) passes to Grimaldo, regardless of overlaps/underlaps. But that actually does not matter a lot, since your tactic is full of a lot more glaring issues than this one.

Every tactic explained here has issues. Try playing a tactic like others have explained and you will see it won't replicate Benfica real-life playstyle.

[Experienced Defender]

3 minutes ago, kurupted said:

Every tactic explained here has issues. Try playing a tactic like others have explained and you will see it won't replicate Benfica real-life playstyle.

I am not talking about a Benfica replication. I am talking about your tactic from the OP as such. In order for any tactic to work, it first needs to make sense from the perspective of elementary football logic (unless it's created as an exploit plug-and-play tactic, which is legitimate as anyone's free choice. but that's another pair of shoes).

[Keyzer Soze]

@kurupted

I gotta be honest, when i look at your thread, i assumed that could be a good oportunity to discuss a tactical sistem that, at least for the people that follow the portuguese league, really interest football lovers, despite of their clubs.

I had the proper respect for your opening post, saying that one of the beautys of football is that everyone see it in different ways, in terms of how the team and the players play the game.

However, since then i'm getting the feeling that you don't deal very well with other users that have and share a different opinion.

For me, the fun part of this thread was seeing different users posting their interpretation of Benfica tactics. We had at least 4 or 5 different versions, some more similar then others.

But for you, it seems that you've made the thread with the clear idea that your interpretation is the right one, and any other version is wrong. 

Perhaps, next time it would be better if you simply post your tactic in the upload/download section and don't allow any comments from other users.

 

[kurupted]

3 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

I am not talking about a Benfica replication. I am talking about your tactic from the OP as such. In order for any tactic to work, it first needs to make sense from the perspective of elementary football logic (unless it's created as an exploit plug-and-play tactic, which is legitimate as anyone's free choice. but that's another pair of shoes).

If i shared my tactic it's because I think it's the one that replicates the best how Benfica plays. In any point I said it was flawless, have you seen in this post me saying that this tactic works?

You can't talk about elementary football logic when you play FM, there are things that you can't simply replicate from real-life, one of those things it's the microadjustments you do in-game. When I said the WP works better than the IW it's because i TESTED IT, I used many many roles, with different kind of players, If i shared this tactic it's because replicates the best.

Want another example ? You talk a lot about the use of WB instead of CWB, you just need 5 minutos of a match to realize that the WB or even the CWB doesn't replicate in real-life what Grimaldo does.

Another example ? I don't know if you suggested to use Rafa as an IW, but if you did and if you watched a game, you would realize that Rafa behaviour isn't similar how Rafa plays.

3 horas atrás, Keyzer Soze disse:

@kurupted

I gotta be honest, when i look at your thread, i assumed that could be a good oportunity to discuss a tactical sistem that, at least for the people that follow the portuguese league, really interest football lovers, despite of their clubs.

I had the proper respect for your opening post, saying that one of the beautys of football is that everyone see it in different ways, in terms of how the team and the players play the game.

However, since then i'm getting the feeling that you don't deal very well with other users that have and share a different opinion.

For me, the fun part of this thread was seeing different users posting their interpretation of Benfica tactics. We had at least 4 or 5 different versions, some more similar then others.

But for you, it seems that you've made the thread with the clear idea that your interpretation is the right one, and any other version is wrong. 

Perhaps, next time it would be better if you simply post your tactic in the upload/download section and don't allow any comments from other users.

 

I don't get it why you are "offended" of what I said. You said a lot of things, i answered you, saying that don't work, I didn't said in this topic that my tactic works and you are wrong. It's not "everyone see it in different ways", everybody knows that, my main objective is to replicate Bruno Lage tactic, and when I said that X dont work, or X role doesn't work it's because i tested it, you clearly not, if you play a tactic like you suggested, you will see you will miss COMPLETELY the objective of this post, replicate a real-life tactic.

The similar versions you talked about, there are not similar at all, you just need to change 1 role to make a tactic VERY DIFFERENT from another.

Like i said before, i didn't said that my interpretation is right and yours wrong. If i look at things the way you see, your interpretation is right and mine's wrong. Have you tested my tactic even for 1 game before posting anything here ? I guess no.

I think you didn't even tried my tactic in the first place, cause if you did, you didn't said many things like you said. If you don't want to be here, fine, get out of here, but you can't say my interpretation is right and others wrong, because in every post of mine in this topic I refuted any suggestion and i explained why, because i tested it

In fact, I didn't asked for your "help" on this thread, you answered this thread because you wanted to, and when you answer a thread with some kind of suggestion, you need to be prepared for someone to refute your suggestions and explaining why, and thats what i did. Your suggestion isn't an absolute truth like mine isn't either, but you are incoherent when you say that my attitude towards you superiority, cause it isnt, Again, in every post of mine I explained how this tactic works and why, unlike you, you suggested using Samaris as a BWM but you didn't even explained why, the BWM role and the CM(D) are very similar but very different in many aspects.

[Experienced Defender]

16 minutes ago, kurupted said:

You can't talk about elementary football logic when you play FM

Well, I do play FM - and create tactics - entirely based on the logic of real-life football.

But never mind, I am glad that your Lage "replication" is working wonders  

[kingjericho]

We need to take into account that Lage's tactic has flaws IRL. The left flank is incredibly exposed, and when the base XI changes, some roles change too. For example, when Jonas replaces João Félix he basically stops closing down as Jonas can't do that, so maybe we switch from a AM/s to a Trequartista or even Enganche.

Also, after Gabriel's injury Samaris became more responsible of initiating attacks, and Florentino is a more basic defensive midfielder. So I'd use something like a CM/d + DLP/s pairing, which is different from the Gabriel/Samaris partnership, as neither man was fully focused on only defending, like Florentino is.

@kurupted: bear in mind that if you use an Attacking mentality you can use less Attacking roles. So in your setup you have both striker on Attack plus an Attacking mentality, which will make them two spears in the box, with neither of them dropping deep as often as they do, especially João Félix. I agree with most of your TIs, but to replicate Benfica I'd assign slightly different roles.

Almeida and Grimaldo can't have the same role as they play very differently. Grimaldo has lots of freedom to cross, shoot, stay wide, cut inside, and so on. CWB is great for him, but Almeida is a more traditional FB/WB.

Rafa and Pizzi shouldn't have the same role either, I'd use Pizzi as a WM/s, basically he's a central midfielder playing wide, and Rafa either as a Winger os Inverted Winger, although a Winger role with an opposite foot already creates the cut inside effect.

SK/d

WB/s - CD/d - BPD/d - CWB/s

WM/s - CM/s - DLP/s - W/s

F9/s - AF/a

Keep your TI and have a go with these roles, I think you will definitely see aspects of the real life setup in the game  

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, kingjericho said:

bear in mind that if you use an Attacking mentality you can use less Attacking roles. So in your setup you have both striker on Attack plus an Attacking mentality, which will make them two spears in the box, with neither of them dropping deep as often as they do, especially João Félix

This is a very good point 

Btw, using both strikers on attack duty - and under the Attacking team mentality at that - is a result of a misconception that many people have, assuming that a striker on support duty will stay deep at all times and never get into the box and/or find himself in potential goal-scoring positions. Which cannot be further from the truth. 

[kurupted]

2 horas atrás, kingjericho disse:

We need to take into account that Lage's tactic has flaws IRL. The left flank is incredibly exposed, and when the base XI changes, some roles change too. For example, when Jonas replaces João Félix he basically stops closing down as Jonas can't do that, so maybe we switch from a AM/s to a Trequartista or even Enganche.

Also, after Gabriel's injury Samaris became more responsible of initiating attacks, and Florentino is a more basic defensive midfielder. So I'd use something like a CM/d + DLP/s pairing, which is different from the Gabriel/Samaris partnership, as neither man was fully focused on only defending, like Florentino is.

@kurupted: bear in mind that if you use an Attacking mentality you can use less Attacking roles. So in your setup you have both striker on Attack plus an Attacking mentality, which will make them two spears in the box, with neither of them dropping deep as often as they do, especially João Félix. I agree with most of your TIs, but to replicate Benfica I'd assign slightly different roles.

Almeida and Grimaldo can't have the same role as they play very differently. Grimaldo has lots of freedom to cross, shoot, stay wide, cut inside, and so on. CWB is great for him, but Almeida is a more traditional FB/WB.

Rafa and Pizzi shouldn't have the same role either, I'd use Pizzi as a WM/s, basically he's a central midfielder playing wide, and Rafa either as a Winger os Inverted Winger, although a Winger role with an opposite foot already creates the cut inside effect.

SK/d

WB/s - CD/d - BPD/d - CWB/s

WM/s - CM/s - DLP/s - W/s

F9/s - AF/a

Keep your TI and have a go with these roles, I think you will definitely see aspects of the real life setup in the game  

I don't think you're right. I have tested many roles, including the fact that sometimes Jonas plays with João Félix, indeed you have to change roles, but Jonas is injured in the beginning of the FM season.

First of all, despite João Félix-Seferovic or Joao Felix-Jonas role, there is one thing that you need to understand. As you said, IRL the tactic has flaws, leaves many defensive gaps but in the other way, it creates a lot of goalscoring chances, Benfica won a match 10-0 per example. I can't really replicate André Almeida role IRL and put that in FM terms, its simply impossible, in order to make André Almeida far up in the pitch, as i have shown in the first pictures, i need to use a CWB. I totally agree with you, André Almeida isnt that offensive as Grimaldo is, we all know that, but if you play André Almeida with a FB role you will often see Pizzi being alone. Bruno Lage tactic, one of the things that make Benfica score a lot of goals, was the fact that the Wingers and the Fullbacks create a 2x1 in the wing. I have tested Andre Almeida in WB role, FB role, i even changed Pizzi role, what i often saw, was that in the build-up, André Almeida was close to the CB's. In real life, André Almeida goes up in the pitch, the only difference, is that he is more conservative than Grimaldo, but you can't replicate that "microadjustment" in FM. Or you use CWB and André Almeida can be far up in the pitch, or you use FB and André Almeida doesnt help that much Pizzi in creating a 2x1 in the wing. You didn't remember something very important. Grimaldo player traits are very differente from André Almeida. You can use André Almeida in CWB and with certain PI he stays more conservative. Its a fact that Grimaldo plays much different from André Almeida, but they do occupy the same position in the opposite wing, with some kind of different behaviour, thats a problem that FM engine has.

The other thing you said, using Gabriel as a DLP-S and Samaris as a CM-D. I have used many roles, RPM, DLPS, DLP-D along with BWM and even CM-D. The only problem i faced, is that i cant get Gabriel and Samaris, or Florentino and Samaris, to be paired in the midfield, even CM-D with "Hold position" sometimes will enter the box, it isn't that hard to find Gabriel waiting for the ball to shoot from outside the area, and thats not how Gabriel plays IRL. Both midfielders pivot each other, that means that they need to be close in certain situations, in the attack is the same, they don't stay at the entry of the box.

In the same way that i can't replicate André Almeida "mentality" IRL, I can't replicate Pizzi and Rafa movements IRL to FM. In the build up, both Pizzi and Rafa stay in a more interior space, with both fullbacks close to them. The only problem with using IW in Rafa, is that his behaviour and movement in FM will not be the same as IRL. I don't want a winger that cuts inside, in the build-up, Rafa DOESN'T hugh the line, Grimaldo does that. As i said before, i can't replicate Rafa style in FM, using him as WP-A he will be in more interior space, like Pizzi, but if i used as an IW, he will not behave the way i want.

Same thing as seferovic. I don't really think that Seferovic is an AF, or even a Poacher, Seferovic and João Félix duo they work together, sometimes Seferovic goes for a run behind the defence and 1 or 2 defenders go with him, and this leaves space to João Félix and another players.

About the TI's, i am trying many different instructions. First i tested high tempo, and i didn't like that, Benfica build-up is slow, they try to find pass and they are patient, only in the final third they rush a bit. I tried Balanced mentality with high tempo, I tried Control Mentality with normal tempo. I will try using balanced mentality with high tempo again but i will change the roles. I don't think Benfica in some way take big risks, guess i need to still figure it out.

[kurupted]

23 horas atrás, Experienced Defender disse:

Well, I do play FM - and create tactics - entirely based on the logic of real-life football.

But never mind, I am glad that your Lage "replication" is working wonders  

Your Lage replication is as good as mine. Get out of here.

[herne79]

Keep things civil and respectful please.

Remember that when using the word "recreation" it is often open to interpretation and different people will have different views of things.

[andre62]

@kurupted

 

Can you share your recreation to give a try?

 

thanks

[kurupted]

14 horas atrás, andre62 disse:

@kurupted

 

Can you share your recreation to give a try?

 

thanks

Theres 1 thing people here don't understand. Rafa can play WP-A while playing as an "IW" kind of. Rafa Traits makes him hugh the line and cut inside, just like he does irl.

I will try to upload the tactic, just give me a minute.

[kurupted]

15 horas atrás, andre62 disse:

@kurupted

 

Can you share your recreation to give a try?

 

thanks

Try this link

http://www.mediafire.com/file/xquh1252a77mudz/SLB.fmf/file

[andre62]

any change for away games or against big or strong teams?

[kurupted]

14 horas atrás, andre62 disse:

any change for away games or against big or strong teams?

It really depends. You can drop "play from defence" or "work ball into box", lowering mentality, using a BWM with defense duty, it really depends on your opponent

[alex_SLB]

Hi @kurupted

As a big fan of Benfica I am very interested in your tactical recreaction. Bruno lage's football is really enjoyable to watch (despite the poor match against FCP...) and I would be glad to use it in FM 19.
I saw that you shared a few ideas on the Arrigo Sacchi's thread about Benfica's tactic, have you made any changes to the tactic?

By the way, do you have any results to show with this tactic?

Thanks a lot!