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4-1-2-3 Struggles - My team can only score one type of goal

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Posted (edited)

Hi tacticians. I'm currently playing a Spurs save on FM19, and I've been scoring a decent amount over the first fourteen games of the season. The only problem is - it's been the same goal, repeated about fifteen times. Eriksen or Davies receive the ball in the left half-space and pick out Son's run at the back post. As you can see, Son has scored sixteen goals, most of them this way; Moura has scored four times and Dele once when played in that role. Eriksen and Davies have combined for ten assists, and they'd have more if Son didn't keep playing a one-two with the keeper before scoring.

Kane has no goals from open play. Fernandes only has two. Dele only has one from central midfield. Eriksen's only managed one. This is a problem.

I was expecting interplay out towards the left to see Fernandes and Dele getting chances to break into the box and score. I was expecting Kane to be banging them in, as Kane is wont to do. And I was expecting Aurier/Trippier to be getting chances to cross after a switch of play, but they've combined for one assist.

What's going wrong? 

Son Only.png

EDIT: Update, I took six points from nine games, including one goal in six games, and got sacked.

Edited by Sophos

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I wouldn't say its going wrong if you are performing well. Your tactic is setup well to have Son as the main goal threat, with the overload on the left hand side creating the space at the back post. You could remove the focus play down the left instruction since you already have a playmaker on the left hand side which will draw the ball there. 

Kane is going to be dropping deep into the AMC strata and DLF(s) has hold up the ball hard coded so its unlikely he's going to be banging them in. Maybe changing him to DLF(a) or CF(s) will make him more of a goal threat. 

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Posted (edited)

I think your tactic is actually wonderfully designed to get the most out of the Raumdeuter on the right hand side, as Lj says above. You have really nice movement to create space. Your DLF will drop off the defenders into the DMC area, and the AP on the left will also drift into this region. The opposition will have to commit men to deal with those threats. At the same time you are creating an overload on the left hand side with the CWB and the Mez(A). This movement will cause all kinds of problems for the defending side. They have to commit men to deal with the threats of the DLF and AP, and at the same time will drift players to their right flank to deal with your threats on the left. This will likely have the knock on effect that there is space both centrally and on your right hand side. The RMD will exploit this, and clearly is doing so. Honestly, this tactic is a perfect example of how to create a system based around the RMD scoring a lot of goals. So well done for that, people could use this as a good example of building around one position. I bet this tactic would be awesome for Juventus with Ronaldo as the RMD.

In terms of what you actually want to see also. A DLF is never going to be a main goal threat. They are a player who will drop off the defenders to create space. They are going to help other people score. If you want more goals from Kane, you will want him in a more advanced role. I use the DLF in exactly the same manner as you, to create space for other players (in my case a CM(A) and a IF(A), who are my dual main goal threats). However, you are putting another player into the space between midfield and defense; the AP on the left wing. He may well do enough of a job by himself in creating space by dragging players with him (especially if he drags their right full back with him). You could try some more attacking roles for Kane to see if he gets into better goal scoring positions. But be aware you will likely decrease the danger the RMD poses by doing this. Maybe a DLF(A) to start with, just to see if he scores more goals. Just keep thinking in terms of where the space will be. He will be able to receive the through balls from the AP too.

For the midfield. The Mez(A) is always going to go forward and wide, not so much forward and straight. I'd be reluctant to change this, because I think your left hand side is very well designed to cause the AI big problems and to feed your RMD (and maybe striker if he is more advanced). I do not use the BBM role often, so you would have to tell me exactly what sort of position he takes up when you have the ball. How advanced is he. If you are going to leave the striker further forward, it would be nice to have this player operate between CM and AMC for the most part, to complement the AP. Or use him as a passing option to recycle the ball. I'm not sure you are going to be able to make this player a big goalscorer though. You already have one runner from midfield. You need one player to hold position a little. Both to be in the middle if you lose the ball, and to be a pivot around which you can switch play. The HB will drop deeper when you have the ball, so maybe does not do this so well. Plus he is attacking the same space as the RMD, who will be in a better position to score most times anyway.

I would try something like a standard CM(S) to start (or leave the BBM if he does what I described). You could also be a little more adventurous with the DMC against smaller sides who are quite defensive. Give him a role like DM(s) so he is able to support your attack and act as a passing outlet (this is how I use my DM in most matches). You can then try different things with the BBM then, to see what you like.

A word of caution too here. I would not try to change everything at once. Make one change at a time to see if you are seeing more like the behaviour you want. You are performing well, based on the stats you have. So there are no need for drastic changes. Play around a little with some different ideas a little at a time until you find something you like.

Edited by sporadicsmiles
early use of the return key to post, oops!

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As the guys above said your tactic is designed this was and if you perform well then you dont have to change it. But if you re willing to experiment and making Kane score more is your priority Id do two things:

Remove focus play on the left

Change dlfs role to either pressing forward support or complete forward support. Im really not a fan of having a lone striker on attack mentality therefore those two choices I proposed. By changing the role to pressing forward you eliminate hard coded moves knto channels of dlfs which means that kane most of the time will be sittong in the middle of the box ready to finish any passes from rdta or playmaker. I actually used similar tactic in fm18 (with defensive forward on support) and my striker scored sth like 30 goals in Bundesliga. Unfortunately there s a risk that the quality of your buildup might suffer from that change. The other option is to change dlfs to cfs and ask him to do even more.

Best of luck with experimenting!!!

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Well, I've tried tinkering with the roles of the MCR and STC - and now I'm not really scoring any goals at all, even when I go back to the original setup. It's like it's just... stopped working.

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This tactic is designed for Son to be the star its all about creating the space for the goals, I had a similar strategy in FM17, Red pharaoh was also set up to do  the same thing in FM18. The AP/Mez (A) has been a fantastic combo since it was introduced. So its doing exactly what its supposed to do. Don't be surprised if Son scores 70 goals in a season. :-) Very nice system, why change it :-)

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@Rashidi could I ask you about your opinion why AP/MEZ (A) combination works so well?

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Both do well with ball control, if you choose the right players, both players have the potential for unlocking defences and when you play them close together you have two players who can keep the ball very well. If either one of them has switch ball to other flank then they can create overloads by drawing more opposition players to them, this creates spaces around the pitch, which is why the RMD is scoring so many goals.

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I’d try giving Alli the get further forward PI, there’s probably a lot of space for him to arrive into 

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6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Both do well with ball control, if you choose the right players, both players have the potential for unlocking defences and when you play them close together you have two players who can keep the ball very well. If either one of them has switch ball to other flank then they can create overloads by drawing more opposition players to them, this creates spaces around the pitch, which is why the RMD is scoring so many goals.

Without reading this thread, I'd have instinctively thought the AP and MEZ would have tried to occupy the same space and it wouldn't have worked that well. That's the trouble I have, my "logic" is limited by my knowledge and I end up making bad decisions. 

 

For this particular point, why do they work well? Don't they end up occupying the same space if the AP drifts inside from wide and the MEZ drifts wide from a central position? 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, DamianJMcGrath said:

I'd have instinctively thought the AP and MEZ would have tried to occupy the same space and it wouldn't have worked that well

But there is nothing inherently wrong in 2 players "occupying the same space" in the sense that they operate close to each other, especially if your intention is to dominate the game and camp in the opposition half/final third. They can create some very nice interplay btw.

Edited by Experienced Defender

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This is a beaut, it reminds of an asymmetrical system I had in about 14 or 15, it was before they introduced the raumdauter but after the inside forward which is what I had to use. My AMR was European golden boot winner every year, the left was heavily over loaded and he just ran riot in space. 

I'm really glad everyone else has answered as they have because I looked at your screenshot and had to re-read your post because I just thought... its working as intended? 

You'd need Kane in a much more advanced role and your crossing targeted specifically to the centre to get something closer to your vision but, as others have said, Son will suffer to the extent it may even be redundant having him as a RMD. 

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On 08/05/2019 at 09:36, Rashidi said:

Both do well with ball control, if you choose the right players, both players have the potential for unlocking defences and when you play them close together you have two players who can keep the ball very well. If either one of them has switch ball to other flank then they can create overloads by drawing more opposition players to them, this creates spaces around the pitch, which is why the RMD is scoring so many goals.

Thank you so much for taking time to reply. I'll definitely give this setup a try.

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On 07/05/2019 at 00:54, Sophos said:

Hi tacticians. I'm currently playing a Spurs save on FM19, and I've been scoring a decent amount over the first fourteen games of the season. The only problem is - it's been the same goal, repeated about fifteen times. Eriksen or Davies receive the ball in the left half-space and pick out Son's run at the back post. As you can see, Son has scored sixteen goals, most of them this way; Moura has scored four times and Dele once when played in that role. Eriksen and Davies have combined for ten assists, and they'd have more if Son didn't keep playing a one-two with the keeper before scoring.

Kane has no goals from open play. Fernandes only has two. Dele only has one from central midfield. Eriksen's only managed one. This is a problem.

I was expecting interplay out towards the left to see Fernandes and Dele getting chances to break into the box and score. I was expecting Kane to be banging them in, as Kane is wont to do. And I was expecting Aurier/Trippier to be getting chances to cross after a switch of play, but they've combined for one assist.

What's going wrong? 

Son Only.png

I think you've actually set-up in a pretty decent and solid way. I see the complaint, but the set-up is designed to get the best out of your RMD. 

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To be honest, & i know this is a stretch, but if you want Kane to be top player, play him as the RMD.

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1 hour ago, denen123 said:

To be honest, & i know this is a stretch, but if you want Kane to be top player, play him as the RMD.

In FM18 I once tried (purely for the sake of experimenting) to play Kane as a RMD in AML, with Dele as the lone striker in TQ role (4231), and it worked pretty well in that particular situation.

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1 hour ago, denen123 said:

To be honest, & i know this is a stretch, but if you want Kane to be top player, play him as the RMD.

He doesn't really have the acceleration to be effective as Raumdeuter. He is way to slow to get into good scoring positions

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17 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

He doesn't really have the acceleration to be effective as Raumdeuter. He is way to slow to get into good scoring positions

 

Yeah a good raumdeuter needs to be absolutely rapid, like that famous sprinter Thomas Muller. 

 

 

... Oh. 

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RMD in the first place need to be intelligent and have good movement OTB. Speed is always welcome for any role, but is not key for a RMD. In addition to off the ball, he needs good anticipation, first touch, composure, finishing, decisions...

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

RMD in the first place need to be intelligent and have good movement OTB. Speed is always welcome for any role, but is not key for a RMD. In addition to off the ball, he needs good anticipation, first touch, composure, finishing, decisions...

Those are all very important very true. But then when you highlight the key (green) attributes for the role, acceleration is among them? This always confused me. I figure that developers suggest you need to have high acceleration similarly to those other ones that you mention 

Edited by crusadertsar

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44 minutes ago, Finners said:

 

Yeah a good raumdeuter needs to be absolutely rapid, like that famous sprinter Thomas Muller. 

 

 

... Oh. 

So why does the game highlight acceleration as very important for the role?

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35 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

So why does the game highlight acceleration as very important for the role?

 

It helps, its nice, but the motion that a player with Harry Kane's mental couldn't be a good raumdeuter because he doesn't have 16+ acceleration is a bit daft. 

It's not like he has 7 or 8 either. 

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

when you highlight the key (green) attributes for the role, acceleration is among them? This always confused me

It's not confusing. Acceleration is welcome, but is not necessary, especially if a player has high ratings for other important attributes. Which Kane obviously does. Furthermore, Kane's acceleration (as well as pace), while not extraordinary, is still pretty decent (13 I think).

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Posted (edited)

That's sounds great actually. Thanks for clearing it up @Finners and @Experienced Defender I was under impression that acceleration was key attribute. And never felt comfortable using players with less than 15 in it. I guess it's a habit from playing older FM games were speed was so important for goal scorerers. That opens a whole range of other players to use. I thought it was the same as with poachers. I could never get a slow poacher firing

Edited by crusadertsar

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Posted (edited)

Unfortunately, Kane's out for a few months with an injury - and now my raumdeuter isn't scoring, either. Son has one in his last nine played out there, while Lucas has one in four. I'm not sure if its related to Kane's injury or not, but it's a big concern. We're knicking 1-0 wins from set pieces at the moment.

I really hate this game sometimes. It's taken me months to create a tactic of my own that works, and then - it just goes to **** out of nowhere?

Edited by Sophos

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1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

That's sounds great actually. Thanks for clearing it up @Finners and @Experienced Defender I was under impression that acceleration was key attribute. And never felt comfortable using players with less than 15 in it. I guess it's a habit from playing older FM games were speed was so important for goal scorerers. That opens a whole range of other players to use. I thought it was the same as with poachers. I could never get a slow poacher firing

Well, a poacher also does not require extreme speed. As with RMD, it's welcome of course, but not necessary. Kane for example can be a great poacher (though he can play any role up front if needed), but for any role to work - it needs to be appropriately integrated into the system. One same player can play great in a certain role in one tactical system, and that same player playing in that same role can prove a failure in a different system.

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15 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Well, a poacher also does not require extreme speed. As with RMD, it's welcome of course, but not necessary. Kane for example can be a great poacher (though he can play any role up front if needed), but for any role to work - it needs to be appropriately integrated into the system. One same player can play great in a certain role in one tactical system, and that same player playing in that same role can prove a failure in a different system.

Hmm, so speaking of slow aging poachers or raumdeuters? Theoretically, how would you create a system that would allow them to continue banging goals in? Just curious. I would love to keep my veterans like Gameiro at Valencia past their prime. But find that once their acceleration and pace goes into single digits then so does their output. Do their flourish in slow build up, high line of engagement kind of tactic where they do not need to run far to get into scoring positions? I know this is a sidetrack from the original post so you can respond to this in a PM if you wish. 

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2 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

so speaking of slow aging poachers or raumdeuters? Theoretically, how would you create a system that would allow them to continue banging goals in? Just curious. I would love to keep my veterans like Gameiro at Valencia past their prime. But find that once their acceleration and pace goes into single digits then so does their output. Do their flourish in slow build up, high line of engagement kind of tactic where they do not need to run far to get into scoring positions?

Basically, when their speed starts fading due to their advanced age, they will need more support from creative teammates in the midfield, since they cannot do as much on their own as they once could. 

So yes, you got the point:

7 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Do their flourish in slow build up, high line of engagement kind of tactic where they do not need to run far to get into scoring positions?

:thup:

Build-up does not necessarily have to be too slow though. But a possession-based system is more than welcome (unless the player is paired with a fast, mobile and technically gifted strike partner, so our "old" poacher can use his intelligence and experience to get himself into the right position :brock:

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Hmm, so speaking of slow aging poachers or raumdeuters? Theoretically, how would you create a system that would allow them to continue banging goals in? Just curious. I would love to keep my veterans like Gameiro at Valencia past their prime. But find that once their acceleration and pace goes into single digits then so does their output. Do their flourish in slow build up, high line of engagement kind of tactic where they do not need to run far to get into scoring positions? I know this is a sidetrack from the original post so you can respond to this in a PM if you wish. 

 

Try not to think of singular attributes in football manager as definitive to a situation. 

Passing as an example. So, the passing stat itself is just the BASELINE that the game uses to calculate a pass. There are umpteen modifiers thrown in on top. You have to consider it will be modified by a player's technique, his composure and his bravery versus the context of his situation, his ambition, his Big Games versus the pressure of the situation, the team talk you gave and his morale. 

And before he got to striking the ball, it took vision, decisions, anticipation, maybe flair, more ambition, bravery, etc, to have spotted the pass and decided to play it in the first place. 

So then to transfer that logic to your striker, think about a footballer getting from A to B in the fastest time where A is his starting position and B is where the CCC will be. 

His time of arrival is going to be influenced at its core by his pace and acceleration, yes. They're the baseline stats, like passing. 

But then it's going to be heavily modified by his off the ball movement, his work rate, his condition (hence his stamina), his anticipation not to mention maybe his team work, his determination or his agility depending on the context of the situation. 

I'd back Mauro Icardi, Thomas Muller or Pippo Inzaghi to be in more goal scoring situations than Usain Bolt because of their brains. Their read of the game, their subtle movement, their anticipation of an opportunity will all give them a huge head start regardless that they may be slower. 

It's the same in football manager. Think of your player's time of arrival at B as the sum of all those parts. Sure a player with great movement, anticipation and speed is perfect but then how many of those are there? 

There's many ways to crack an egg. 

I'd personally rather a player with 13 passing and great technique and mentals as listed above than a non league footballer with 20 passing and 8 everything else. 

And Harry Kane with 13 acceleration but sky high mentals is going to get himself in to more dangerous goal scoring positions than a 20 pace sprinter with mush between his ears. 

Keep in mind that this will change the further the ball has to travel though. So, if you're hoofing 40 yard passes over a high defensive line then obviously it'll be more rewarding for a player with high pace and slightly lower off the ball. It doesn't mean a player with 13 pace and 18 movement can't be good behind the defensive line it just means he'll have less edge. 

But the point of a raumdeuter is more about finding space where its limited. It's about being free when it's harder to do so. It's less about those long balls behind which are the territory of a poacher or advanced forward and it's more about the half spaces. Think about the opportunities your tactic creates, a more probing patient build up will create different chances to a more desperate one and make pace more or less significant. 

Edited by Finners

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Posted (edited)

Or put another way. 

A race between a Ferrari 458 and a Honda Civic, from Brighton to Burnley. 

If they have identical drivers with identical maps and they start at the same time then the ferrari wins, sure. 

But if the Honda has a huge head start (anticipation) and knows where he's going (off the ball, anticipation, team work, whatever else) while the Ferrari has to wait a few hours for his satnav to charge then there's only one winner. 

Especially if the Ferrari driver wants to stop every half hour for a **** (low work rate) or needs to pull in every hour for fuel (low stamina) at which point he won't be moving at all. 

And if he ends up miles behind and just gives up (low determination) then he's really not going to be trying. 

Edited by Finners

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3 hours ago, Finners said:

Or put another way. 

A race between a Ferrari 458 and a Honda Civic, from Brighton to Burnley. 

If they have identical drivers with identical maps and they start at the same time then the ferrari wins, sure. 

But if the Honda has a huge head start (anticipation) and knows where he's going (off the ball, anticipation, team work, whatever else) while the Ferrari has to wait a few hours for his satnav to charge then there's only one winner. 

Especially if the Ferrari driver wants to stop every half hour for a **** (low work rate) or needs to pull in every hour for fuel (low stamina) at which point he won't be moving at all. 

And if he ends up miles behind and just gives up (low determination) then he's really not going to be trying. 

I love it! Couldn't have said it better :)

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Posted (edited)

@Sophos so how is the tactic going now? Were you able to get out of the slump? I am inspired to try something similar with Celta Vigo (I think they have perfect team to create overloads with a playmaker who likes to switch the ball to the other side and Iago Aspas as the Raumdeuter)

Edited by crusadertsar

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On 10/05/2019 at 12:09, crusadertsar said:

@Sophos so how is the tactic going now? Were you able to get out of the slump? I am inspired to try something similar with Celta Vigo (I think they have perfect team to create overloads with a playmaker who likes to switch the ball to the other side and Iago Aspas as the Raumdeuter)

Took six points from nine Premier League games and got sacked.

I just don't understand it... The tactic was working well, and everyone here was saying it was a well set-up tactic - and then it just fell apart. We scored once in my last six games in charge! Sure, Son was on international duty, but Moura has great stats and should be banging them in as that Raumdeuter too... And quite how Kane managed to go twenty-one games without a goal, as the DLF (A), I don't know.

Looking at my form is a joke.

WWWWWDWW, and then, LLLWDWLDWLDL

Why!?

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11 minutes ago, Sophos said:

Moura has great stats and should be banging them in as that Raumdeuter too

Not sure if Moura is optimally suited for a RMD role. Rather an IF on attack on the right, or IF on support on the left.

 

12 minutes ago, Sophos said:

And quite how Kane managed to go twenty-one games without a goal, as the DLF (A), I don't know

A player's performance does not depend only on his role, but on how the tactic as a whole is set up. Btw, wasn't he initially a DLF on support in your tactic?

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2
2 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Not sure if Moura is optimally suited for a RMD role. Rather an IF on attack on the right, or IF on support on the left.

He's not perfectly suited to the role, but I'd say he's got decent ratings for the key attributes - acceleration, anticipation, off the ball, work rate, finishing. I'm not expecting him to play it as well as Son does, but he was scoring fairly freely earlier in the season when Son was rested or subbed off; just not at all in my last ten games or so.

 
 
 
4 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

A player's performance does not depend only on his role, but on how the tactic as a whole is set up. Btw, wasn't he initially a DLF on support in your tactic?

Yeah, I switched him onto (A) when the goals started to dry up.

And I know that the role isn't a goalscoring role, but I don't see why he wasn't scoring any in this tactic. I was expecting both fullbacks to pick him out with crosses, for the Raumdeuter to occasionally play it square to him, and for the AP and MEZ to pick out any late runs into the box.

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Gave the tactic another go in a new save. Got sacked because I was in the relegation zone in November.

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1 minute ago, Sophos said:

Gave the tactic another go in a new save. Got sacked because I was in the relegation zone in November.

I am (by pure coincidence) in the process of writing a thread about a possible tactic for the very Tottenham in FM19 (as the 3rd part of my series on tactics for top EPL teams). It should be finished soon (maybe tomorrow already), so maybe it will give you some useful ideas. The formation is also 4141DM Wide (like yours), though with very different roles, duties and instructions.

Btw, I managed Spurs in FM18, so I am pretty familiar with their squad, which makes it easier for me to understand how they can play and what the team is generally capable of. They are a great team :thup:

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