Tactic Collapsing in Fifth Season- Suggestions Needed

[oriole01]

Hi guys,

I've been running a Borussia Dortmund save on FM17 since August of last year, and have recently entered my fifth season. I've been using the same 4-2-3-1 formation as the main tactic throughout the save, and it's provided some decent results, albeit with some inconsistencies. The results can be seen in closer detail in this thread on FMCU, but here's a quick rundown of the first four seasons.

2016/17- 3rd in league with 68 points, 3 points behind runners-up Leverkusen and 14 points behind champions Bayern. Eliminated by Arsenal in UCL Round of 16.
2017/18- 3rd in league with 66 points, 3 points behind runners-up Bayern and 4 points behind champions Leverkusen. Finished 3rd in UCL group, eliminated by Benfica in UEL semi-finals.
2018/19- 2nd in league with 63 points, 19 points behind champions Bayern. Eliminated by CSKA Moscow in UCL playoffs, eliminated by Celtic in UEL Round of 16.
2019/20- 2nd in league with 66 points, 3 points behind champions Bayern. Finished 4th in UCL group.

So there has been general progression in the league, but regression in Europe. I would only expect things to go up from here though, as our young prospects continue to improve and work towards reaching their high potential. However, in the early stages of this fifth season, our form has looked like this:

It's taken a complete and utter nosedive, and I'm short of answers to explain why. My players have the attributes necessary to compete at the highest level, and since I've hardly changed the squad from last season, I would expect them to carry on in the same fashion as they did previous, if not better (as we have a core of young players who can only go up in ability). Pretty much everyone's form has imploded, although morale is surprisingly okay for a team who has won just one competitive match in nine attempts. So I'm starting to think the problem lies tactically. As I said, I have been using my 4-2-3-1 for the entire save, and it is almost solely responsible for the results seen above, so I'm pretty shocked that it has gone so rotten so fast this season. I've always aimed to play an attacking style of football, while still keeping balanced at the back, so that's why this formation was fitting my needs and providing the results until now. Here is my best XI, if they were actually fit/on form:

Have a look at the roles/duties there, and see if there's anything glaring.

I play with the following TIs checked, so again, please point out if there's anything that looks wrong or conflicting with the formation. The Standard-Flexible is just default- normally I play Control-Fluid at home and Standard-Structured or Standard-Flexible away from home with this formation, depending on the strength of the opposition. I do use OIs for every match, with tight marking on all attackers and midfielders, closing down on all attackers and wingers, hard tackling on all attackers and wingers, and show weaker foot on all attackers and wingers. I only use a few PIs, and I doubt those alone would be responsible for the sort of results we've been getting.

As for a second formation, I haven't kept one consistently on the save, as nothing I've tried as far as a defensive/counter formation has had much success. I have taken a look at this formation though:

I've only used this in friendlies and in that most recent match against Liverpool, which resulted in some very free-flowing, end-to-end football, which I liked, but we still ended up losing the match after scoring first. I'd like to know how this formation could potentially be improved, as although it has little wing presence apart from the WBs, it looks like it could work with my squad, especially the more creative players. I would need to buy a natural libero, as I only have one guy who can play there at all. Keep in mind that this formation hasn't reached full familiarity with the players yet, and I haven't assigned any TIs or PIs to it.

Lastly, here's a quick overview of my squad, sorted by position:

(Lerche, Decio, Bay, and Scaramuzzino are newgens)
There's plenty of potential here, but quite simply no one has found form this season. Money isn't a problem for us, as we have over 150 million to spend, so I'd also take some suggestions on players to sign to replace some of the older guys here.

Normally, I wouldn't take to the tactics forum for help in these sorts of situations; I'd just work through it myself. However, I've been playing the save for five seasons in-game and for nearly eleven months IRL, and I have written a boatload of narrative on it on FMCU, so it's a save that I hold pretty close to my heart, and one that I do not want to see end without it being on my terms. I'd really appreciate if someone could either address the issues I've been having directly, or by pointing me to another thread that would help me either develop the formations I've been using or how best to build and balance a squad at a higher level. Feel free to ask me for any more screenshots that may be needed to evaluate the squad, though I think the ones I've already provided should be enough to get a good idea of what I'm working with. Cheers.

[westy8chimp]

Victoria concordia crescit! 

The Arsenal motto - victory comes with harmony.

Considering youve used the tactic with a modicum of success for 4 years... Why would you put a temporary loss of form down to the tactic? 

To me it sounds more of a harmony issue/team dynamic. Morale could certainly be better in terms of face value of what we can see.

Did you sell an influential player in the window? Have you refused to sell your key players during the summer when big clubs came? 

[oriole01]

18 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

Considering you've used the tactic with a modicum of success for 4 years... Why would you put a temporary loss of form down to the tactic? 

The tactic has to be some part of it- it has always been prone to the sort of results that I've been getting this season, except now that is happening on a week in, week out basis. I would think that there's at least something I could do tactically to give us a better chance at getting the results we want.

27 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

To me it sounds more of a harmony issue/team dynamic. Morale could certainly be better in terms of face value of what we can see.

 Did you sell an influential player in the window? Have you refused to sell your key players during the summer when big clubs came? 

I did sell Ousmane Dembele and Julian Weigl during the window. Dembele was very good for us, but had been trying to leave throughout the entire save and I feared that refusing to sell him would cause (ironically) squad disharmony. My players tend to get pissed off more when I refuse to sell someone, rather than selling them. No one's come to me expressing discontent at his sale, so I don't think that's the problem, at least in regards to harmony/dynamics. I will say that selling him has weakened us tactically, as Reus has been on very poor form and I mistakenly thought that our young winger Hasan Bay was ready to make the step up; he has been better than Reus, but unable to fill Dembele's boots completely. I'm reluctant about selling Weigl as well, but again, that hasn't caused any issues with the squad. Keep in mind that I'm on 17, so dynamics play a significantly lesser role in the game than on 18.

Morale was fine before the season started; it has only decreased because of the results. So that's why I think the cause problem lies tactically. I'll agree that morale and harmony is not good, and that is at least partly contributing to why we've been unable to break the poor form, but as for the reason for why that poor form started, and the primary reason for why it is continuing, I think it is a tactical issue.

[Robson 07]

Hi.  To me it looks like a basketball fast break tactic.  Smash it to the wings where you have had, and have, great players to hit teams with pace.  Nothing wrong with that only maybe a bit one dimensional.  If they AI latches onto a method of defending such as not getting their fullbacks caught too high...then what?  That shadow striker is probably just bombing into the box to be a recipient of a chance or get a 2nd ball.  Probably not much of creator in his own right.  I reckon this tactic will work a lot, and it clearly does, just not every time.  Maybe see what sort of sides (or situations) are vulnerable to it, use it then to your advantage.  Maybe have something else that's a similar setup e.g. 4231, that just has different roles and instructions allowing you to have another style of play to mix it up on other occasions, perhaps something a little bit slower tempo that waits for an opening.

[Uncle_Sam]

Off the top of my head I'm guessing that teams are playing differently against you. My evaluation of the situation would be that your opponents are now sitting back because they see you as a superior team. Defensively, they're probably playing with a deep line and your Team Instructions show that you are launching hopeful long balls and that is playing right into their hands since they are just waiting for that. Then, in attack, they are patiently knocking the ball around and finding the spaces to score on the counter because you are closing down enough.

I would probably at the very least go with Control or Attacking mentality against the lower-reputation opponents. Then maybe lower tempo a notch. Instead of raising your mentality you could raise your closing down, and that would still provide some balance.

[wynter]

7 hours ago, oriole01 said:

 

Have a look at the roles/duties there, and see if there's anything glaring.


I've only used this in friendlies and in that most recent match against Liverpool, which resulted in some very free-flowing, end-to-end football, which I liked, but we still ended up losing the match after scoring first. I'd like to know how this formation could potentially be improved, as although it has little wing presence apart from the WBs, it looks like it could work with my squad, especially the more creative players. I would need to buy a natural libero, as I only have one guy who can play there at all. Keep in mind that this formation hasn't reached full familiarity with the players yet, and I haven't assigned any TIs or PIs to it.

 

First system you have no genuine playmaker. DLP sits deeper and that's fine but he's just feeding a ball forward to 4 people all trying to score and no-one actually working to create a great attacking chance. I'd personally shift the SS to an AP, Enganche, AM (A) or a Trequartista if you still want that goal scorer aspect. Working an SS with a CF though just makes two strikers who can pass, but neither are looking to carve out great chances for the other, the interplay isn't ideal. Also if you're sitting both your FBs deep, you may as well transition your IF and Winger to full attacking. IF won't get support from his wingback, or what he does will be marginal. So you're better off letting him run riot.

 

2nd System you're going to lose the midfield battle over the course of the game simply due to the lack of an honest ball winner. Libero brings it out of Defence and becomes a quasi-BWM/Playmaker, but only when you've been attacked. Lack of a BWM/Carrilero or similar role means you're just losing the midfield battle, inviting pressure and conceding. Also think SS/AF/CF might be too many players trying to do too many things in the box at once. I love Shadow Strikers, but they're not really necessary in a 2 striker set-up and they need a playmaker with them to shine. Neither of your tactics really bring out their full potential. 

Added addendum: Higher Tempo, Direct Passing and then telling your team to Work the Ball into the box is contradictory. You're demanding your team force the ball forward at a quick pace, yet want patience in the final 3rd. You've thrown it forward before your players get a chance to work their positioning/move off the ball into prime scoring positions. 

[westy8chimp]

10 hours ago, oriole01 said:

The tactic has to be some part of it- it has always been prone to the sort of results that I've been getting this season, except now that is happening on a week in, week out basis. I would think that there's at least something I could do tactically to give us a better chance at getting the results we want

Fair enough.

Personally I don't like having 2 attack duties in direct line of each other such as your SS and CF, I suspect you are somewhat hindering the SS full capability and also a bit one dimensional. I'd make one of the wide men more attacking and change the SS - or make the CF support and offset him from the SS (have one right centre the other left centre)

I like your TI -> they tie in with your formation. You have players in advanced position so direct and high tempo is good (get it forward to your attackers before the opponent can transition to a good defensive shape)... you have width so exploit flank is fine.

I question the work ball into box as you don't have an AP to consistently probe? I think the intention was because you have attack duties getting into the box.. and maybe you thought work ball in would help direct the ball to them? You don't need it, the winger on support will already look for early cross to the box, and as the strikers are on attack duty they should be positioned for the early ball (rather than patient probing). I'd drop the TI 'work ball into box' -> it's better used when you have a high positioned playmaker with runners coming from deep such as BBM or CMa or even SV.

 

 

[noikeee]

I never quite cracked FM17 (and if you remember I had similar struggles in the Bundesliga, ****ing Tinajero! ) so take it with a huge grain of salt but the vibe I get from your tactic is slightly contradictory, or at least misfitting for a team of the massive quality of Dortmund (and therefore the expectation of favouritism which probably makes the AI sit back most matches, and not gift you space to attack in).

You're playing a very direct 4-2-3-1 that's almost a 4-2-4 with the AMC basically being another striker, the two wingers advanced on AMR/L positions, the "clear ball to flanks" instruction and the "more direct" instruction. The 2 midfielders stay back, the fullbacks stay back, so you've got a team that's almost completely split between front 4 and back 6 and the task of creating chances is entirely on the 2 wingers or hoping one of the hoofed balls makes it to one of the front 2.

Now think about this for a moment, you're a big team in your league (in fact one of the biggest in the world), the other teams are gonna park the bus against you. You try to hoof it up the wings... but their defence is in place. Now what? You're gonna rely 100% on Pulisic and Reus trying to pull something out of their hats. They are very very good so I guess that sometimes this does happen, but it's not enough IMO. I presume the ball gets circulated a lot back to Cyprien (DLP in your screenie) but it's very pass side-to-side with little penetration or movement. The only runner in your team is the SS. It all sounds easy to defend against.

Moreover I imagine you don't keep the ball much, the sideways pass-to-pass between the 2 wingers and 2 MCs only lasts until something's suddenly artificially rushed by the more direct/higher tempo/clear to flanks instructions. This gifts the ball away to the opposition, more time for them to plan their own attacks. Defensive-wise you're not using any TI and you're on Standard, so apart from the BWM whose role is very aggressive, you're not doing any pressing that would've been a natural fit and benefit from such an advanced formation as a 4-2-3-1. Now, everything's got advantages and drawbacks and by choosing not to press on a neutral mentality, with cautious fullbacks, I imagine your back 4 rarely gets pulled out of position which is a good thing defensively, you're probably not giving away through balls very easily for example. BUT given the high-up formation they're not getting enough help from the AMR/L/C and ST, that's too little cover from midfield to properly perform a low block, so a patient team will still create danger, create lots of low quality chances, and with the ball constantly given to them, they will kill you by a thousand papercuts. A long shot here, a corner there, a little lapse of concentration etc. I imagine this is why you're never ever getting smashed 4-0, your solid stance on your back 4 will prevent total collapses from happening........but you're conceding so many low quality chances you are losing every match 1-0 2-0 2-1.

You need to have a little re-think of how do you want to play IMO. I think you need more attacking options, more angles of attack, something else to break the opposition when they don't give you space to run into and nullify the 2 wingers. Perhaps an attacking fullback, a higher up playmaker, a runner from deeper in midfield, maybe all of it, maybe even completely re-think the whole "direct side" approach to it. But every choice has negative consequences as well and it's not as easy as add more attackers = win, there's drawbacks in defense as well etc. It's not easy to find a perfect balance but you can find a better balance than this IMO.

[kidthekid]

based on the results, scoring goals is the main issue. Is your striker missing chances or is he not getting any good chances? If it's the latter then the combination of the front 4 might be something you need consider tweaking. Either make the shadow striker more of a playmaker like others have suggested, or make the striker more of a supporting striker, where he can drop deeper and bring other players into the game.

I like my fullbacks being involved in the play, so if your fullbacks are good crossers or good on the ball, you may be limiting them by having them sit deep and not being involved in the attack.

 

[summatsupeer]

I disagree with the poster above who says you need a AP/TREQ/ENG due to lacking a "genuine playmaker".  If you have the right kind of players in the DLP-S + IF-S roles they can create a lot of goals and could be much more offensive than standard if they have traits like Tries Through Balls Often.

Higher Tempo + More Direct Passing + Clear Ball To Flanks looks like your trying to play counter attacking even if there isn't space/number difference to counter attack.  Plus your using a top heavy formation that isn't naturally going to defend deep and create space behind opponents.  As your reputation increases opponents are going to take fewer risks against you, giving you less space to use behind them.

I think your OI strategy is also a bit strange.  You have lots of players defending high up the pitch, but your pressing strategy is to press+mark the opponents midfield+forwards.  Why have so many of your own players positioned so high and in areas more for pressing there deep players?

[BoxToBox]

More direct passing and work ball into box as a combo could be an issue here. You're pretty much asking them to bomb the ball forward as quick as possible then stop dead on the edge of the box.

On a personal level, I'd not use a shadow striker in this shape unless my striker was a DLF, F9 or Treq, but that's just taste, similarly, with the SK(a), I don't see any need for it when you have a BPD, and aren't playing a high line anyway.

[oriole01]

Hello again. In case any of you were wondering how this went, I adjusted my tactic to fit many of your suggestions (while still sticking with the 4-2-3-1 formation). I got rid of Work Ball into Box, stopped closing down on OIs, changed some roles, made new PIs, and generally made a lot more changes before matches to try and counter the specific strengths and weaknesses of each opponent. Form improved, but unfortunately I was still sacked just before the winter break. The early downhill slide had already done its damage, and I still wasn't being consistent enough for the board to keep me. Thanks for all your suggestions, they were really appreciated and I surely would have done worse had I not tried them.