When they zig, this is how you zag

[superdave]

I wanted to start a thread about countertactics.  Not tactics for counter attacking, but how to tweak your system based on what the other team is doing.

Here is one example.  Whenever I have reason to believe the other team got chewed out at the halftime team talk, when the other team is underachieving, I always check their players' emotions.  If they're fired up, I play 6-8 minutes with retain possession.  If we manage to hold them scoreless, their players invariably become frustrated.

my defending has improved once I adopted the following policy...I tightly mark goal scorers, and close down high assist and high dribble players.  I check the stats every 15 minutes or so, and if an opponent has many key passes or successsful crosses and isn't being closed down, I close them down.

 

Etc.

[craigd84]

I like this, I see how MY team are doing. IE i set out to play fast attacking football, but sometimes i notice the ball is played past my Shadow Striker as the passes are too quick for his movement, as he links play too because of his PPM's. So while he starts the moves he rarely gets on the end of it. Whereas is i play normal speed he more often reaches everything.

[phnompenhandy]

I like your attitude too. I'll use some of this. One thing I do is when an oppo has been booked, if it doesn't disrupt my team shape too much I'll tight mark him in the hope that he'll concede another foul and get a red card.

[facman]

On 12/2/2016 at 14:13, superdave said:

Here is one example.  Whenever I have reason to believe the other team got chewed out at the halftime team talk, when the other team is underachieving, I always check their players' emotions.  If they're fired up, I play 6-8 minutes with retain possession.  If we manage to hold them scoreless, their players invariably become frustrated.

Great idea, I'm going to try it!

[superdave]

17 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I like your attitude too. I'll use some of this. One thing I do is when an oppo has been booked, if it doesn't disrupt my team shape too much I'll tight mark him in the hope that he'll concede another foul and get a red card.

Does it work?

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, superdave said:

Does it work?

Sometimes! Also when one of mine gets a yellow I immediately use the touchline shout "calm down!" Never had one of those players get a red.

[ozilthegunner]

Not quite a response to an opponents action but I was having issues with my team conceding right after scoring.

I started assertively telling my team to concentrate right after scoring and since then have seemed to have better luck. I'd need to analyze it a bit more to be sure, but it certainly hasn't hurt.

I also often tell my team to concentrate in the last 10 minutes of the game if we can't afford to concede

[Lobaeux4]

When an opponent gets an injury, but is still on the field, I will usually set opposition instructions to tackle "hard".  

[Overmars]

My main one is the "Exploit Flanks" shout when my opponent switches to a narrow formation.

I also keep an eye on the physical attributes of my opponents' forwards and defenders. Against a team with poor jumping/heading defenders I will hit early crosses and use a multiple striker formation. Against a team with fast/agile forwards, I will be more conservative with my defenders/midfielders to keep people behind the ball. Against slower teams, I'll press forward with less fear of counters.

Having players with multiple position familiarity really helps with tinkering.

[phnompenhandy]

3 hours ago, Lobaeux4 said:

When an opponent gets an injury, but is still on the field, I will usually set opposition instructions to tackle "hard".  

I do that if he's a  key player or they've used all their subs, but other times I'd prefer a limping oppo to a fresh substitute.

[borivoje213]

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I do that if he's a  key player or they've used all their subs, but other times I'd prefer a limping oppo to a fresh substitute.

Same.  A weakened opponent is always better than a fresh replacement unless it's a god of a player.

[suncrush]

(I'm playing an asymmetric 4-4-2, for context.  LCM is in the DM stratum, and I have a RAM instead of a RM.)

 

I like to regain possession high up the pitch.  I'll start the game with instructions to show their outside backs onto the weak foot to encourage them to make bad clearances, and whichever center back is the weaker ball-player, I'll close down, to get him to make panic passes.

 

If one of their back four starts making a bunch of mistakes, I'll close him down too.

 

If they are playing a DM in a deep role, or with what appears to be a defensive duty, I'll often close him down too.  This has really helped me create more turnovers with my forwards high up the pitch, while still maintaining an overall counterattacking strategy where, if they do successfully clear the ball, my banks of defenders don't get caught out.

[TottenhamBoi90]

I like the idea of this thread. I believe counter tactics are the best way to play football manager, i mainly play a 4231 system but only when it allows so i constantly have the opposition formation on screen and change my formation accordingly.

My TI's Lower Tempo, Play Narrower, Slightly Deeper line, Close down more, Exploit left and right, play out of defense, Retain possession and look for overlaps. My philosophy.

Out wide i play full backs with wingers and wing backs with inside forwards and always if 1 supports the other attacks and vice versa depending on what players i have for example at Tottenham, Walker is better full back attack so i would play Sissoko as Winger support, If i play Trippier though as a wing back attack then Lamela would be inside forward support but if i want Lamela or Sissoko to attack Walker or Trippier will be support. I take this approach to every team that i manage.
Central defense i have a ball playing defender if i have the right player to do so if not then both are Central defenders and My goalkeeper always has a PI to distribute to the right and left back.
In the engine room of midfield i play a sitter/runner/creator combo and always use my strikers best role.

All formations i won't change my TI's (My Philosophy) unless i need 3 center backs then overlapping isn't gonna happen OR they have 2 strikers and so i close down less but basically i just look at their attack and ask myself 3/4 questions.

How many strikers?

If its 1 then don't worry. 

If its 2 then close down less.

How high are their wide men?

AMR/AML - Change my formation so my wide men are sitting closer together to help defend.

MR/ML - Leave my wide men high and focus on the numbers in the middle of the pitch.

WBR/WBL - Change my formation so my wide men are sitting closer together to help defend as often in this situation i will be outnumbered in the middle of the pitch.

DR/DL ONLY - Play 3 at the back with WBs or MR/ML, No point playing 2v1s when your being out numbered centrally.

Are they playing a number 10?

Yes - Play an anchorman unless they have MR/ML system

No - Happy days, focus on the players out wide.

Do i need to play 3 center backs?

Yes - Game on!

No - Don't look for overlaps!

[puffascruffowitz]

If I notice the other team has significantly more possession than me and I can see in game that they're pinning me in my own half I'll switch to counter and use pass into space.

Idk why but it took me a long time to be able to do this. I'd get so stubborn with my tactic even with equal or better opposition I wanted to still try to retain possession, which all teams except maybe Barca struggle to do away against better teams.

The best one I've used for this was a 4-3-3 narrow. It seemed to move seamlessly back and forth between a possession tactic and a lightning quick counter attacking one.

[superdave]

11 hours ago, ozilthegunner said:

Not quite a response to an opponents action but I was having issues with my team conceding right after scoring.

I started assertively telling my team to concentrate right after scoring and since then have seemed to have better luck. I'd need to analyze it a bit more to be sure, but it certainly hasn't hurt.

I also often tell my team to concentrate in the last 10 minutes of the game if we can't afford to concede

I'll try that.  I had that trouble, but it noticeably lessened when I upped my pressing for 3-4 minutes after I scored.  Your idea sounds good too.

9 hours ago, Lobaeux4 said:

When an opponent gets an injury, but is still on the field, I will usually set opposition instructions to tackle "hard".  

Nasty!

 

8 hours ago, Overmars said:

I also keep an eye on the physical attributes of my opponents' forwards and defenders.

One thing I asked them to add to the game like a decade ago was to be able to look at the opposition formation and pick an attribute, or at least a physical attribute, and it would display that for every opposition player.  In my heart I know I should do that myself, but I'm too lazy.  I know I miss out because sometimes a team has a short LB you can exploit, or the right side of their formation is noticeably slower than the left side, etc.  But who wants to click through every player looking for that?

[superdave]

Sometimes my team seems to be in too much of a hurry to get the ball up the field, trying high risk passes.  The way I'd like my team to play is with more diagonal passes.  One way I get this is to look for overlap, but other than that, what can I do when my team is playing too vertical?

[..Valhalla..]

On 12/5/2016 at 02:25, phnompenhandy said:

I like your attitude too. I'll use some of this. One thing I do is when an oppo has been booked, if it doesn't disrupt my team shape too much I'll tight mark him in the hope that he'll concede another foul and get a red card.

This is what I do too - I always target booked or injured players. Tight marking them both (and hard tackling the booked player to wind him up a l'il more).

[johnnyyakuza78]

Interesting thread idea. Funnily after reading articles from Cleon etc I try to avoid looking at the opponents shape too much and concentrate on my own. 

However, the most fun I've had playing the game has been when I felt I made changes which nullified the opposition and gave me an advantage. It makes you feel more like a football manager and less like someone playing a spreadsheet game. I've also had reasonable success doing this but again the variables for what you are doing are many and by messing about with your team you can screw the balance up so you have to have a good idea how your basic tactic works before you can amend it.

So imagining I'm playing a Counter 442 tactic as my standard way of playing. I ask myself these questions when examing the opposition:

- Where is the oppositions main threat (looking at their formation + best players)? 
If I see they are playing a formation that relies heavily on wing play (say 442) and their wingers are lined up with their feet on right side (left footers on the left for example) or say I'm playing against chelsea and Hazard is there on the left. Then I know that my wings need to be secure. So any attacking fullbacks are changed to support. Potentially any wingers are changed to something more defensive, possibly they will double mark the danger man. The other way to go is to emphasise my right winger and get him to exploit the space behind hazard cos I know he won't defend it. More direct passing and attack duty on my winger. 

If they are playing a central midfield heavy formation with lots of creative players then I shore up my midfield by either going 451 or 4411, add hold position or defend duty to one more central mid. This seems to be quite important because a 442 gets massively over run in midfield if you let it happen. 

- Are the opposition going to attack me or sit back?

Usually you can tell from the match odds or even their starting formation. A deep 442 from then usually means they will try and hit me on the counter. In this case I tend to go a bit wider and deeper, have my fullbacks push up to support wingers, stretch the defence a bit but don't leave space behind me. Possibly turn one of my CMs into a B2B to add some unpredictablity to my central mid. 

In the opposite occasion where I think they are going to batter me I might turn one of my strikers into a DLF-A (usually I use defensive forwards) so that he can run onto long balls behind or push their defenders back. I also like to push up my d-line (counterintuitive) because otherwise I give them too much room. I like a 4411 formation here to break up their midfield, I might play a more defensive midfielder further forward as well.

- What are the oppositions strikers like?

If they are pacey poachers then I need to sit back more, if they are big target men then I need to push up more. It might even affect my player choice in order to counteract them. 

- Any opposition body language issues I can exploit

Very rarely do this, but say one of their defenders i looking nervous or frustrated and I have a tricky winger.. I will get him to dribble more around him. Hopefully attracting a rash tackle. Works occasionally. 

 

[superdave]

OK, here's one that I highly recommend.

I check out the other team's striker(s) and see what their best roles are.  TIGHTLY MARK TARGET MEN.

You won't be sorry.

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 22:17, ozilthegunner said:

Not quite a response to an opponents action but I was having issues with my team conceding right after scoring.

I started assertively telling my team to concentrate right after scoring and since then have seemed to have better luck. I'd need to analyze it a bit more to be sure, but it certainly hasn't hurt.

I also often tell my team to concentrate in the last 10 minutes of the game if we can't afford to concede

I can vouch for this.  It works better in conjunction with upping your pressing by one notch for about 5 minutes.

[phnompenhandy]

8 hours ago, superdave said:

OK, here's one that I highly recommend.

I check out the other team's striker(s) and see what their best roles are.  TIGHTLY MARK TARGET MEN.

You won't be sorry.

I can vouch for this.  It works better in conjunction with upping your pressing by one notch for about 5 minutes.

You will be sorry if they're significantly quicker than your markers. Otherwise, yes, especially if they have good heading ability.

[superdave]

On 12/10/2016 at 22:07, superdave said:

Sometimes my team seems to be in too much of a hurry to get the ball up the field, trying high risk passes.  The way I'd like my team to play is with more diagonal passes.  One way I get this is to look for overlap, but other than that, what can I do when my team is playing too vertical?

I found the answer.  It was usually players in the AM stratum.  The solution is to change the, from attacking to support.

heres another one...I'm not one for pressing.  But when the other team looks like why're trying to counter me, I go to close down more.  This has been a big big help in helping me stop goals.

[superdave]

Here's a good one.

I'm playing a 4th place Liverpool team in the 26-27 season.  The game is at Anfield, they're in 4th, so they're good.  We're in 2nd.  They run a 4-4-2.  I check their players' stats, and their 2 strikers are beasts...each have at least 20 goals, and it's early February.  Their 4 wide players have a low number of assists.  So I figure my best bet is to abandon my 4-2-3-1 and pull my 4-1-4-1 out of the mothballs.

I first play the match in my 4-2-3-1, how I'd normally approach such a game.  They win 3-0.  I had predetermined that I wouldn't save this result, so maybe subconsciously I wasn't managing my best.  But CONSCIOUSLY, I really was, because an experiment has to have proper variables.

My theory was that in order to beat them, I had to prevent their central midfield from getting the ball to their strikers, who are both great.  So I played the 4-1-4-1 with a little extra pressing.  The match ended 0-0, but we were the better side.  A 1-0 win for us or a 0-0 would each have been fair results.

Here's what I learned.  Generally, with this match engine, the wide players are the dangerous playmakers.  But if you happen to run up against a team where the wide players are the weak point, you can shut down a team my clogging the middle.  In my experience, that doesn't work because the wings and fullbacks end up killing you.

[HUNT3R]

I'm usually very comfortable using my tactic in every match and seeing how it unfolds, rather than making changes based on assumptions before the match. There are exceptions to that and that's what the thread is about, but there are plenty of views on this already in the thread. I want to offer another point of view as my usual zig zagging is different to what as been mentioned so far.

I try and concentrate on potential match ups. I know the very likely starting line-up based on total appearances and I can see who's fit enough to play. I don't do it for everyone, but I look at players who stand out to me and what they bring to the table. Then I consider my own players (first choice for the position and anyone else almost as good, capable of playing there) who will constantly face him and how the two of them match up. I'll use a simple 4-4-2 vs 4-4-2 to give a few quick examples:

 

MR vs DL

My MR is a Winger/Attack, so he will constantly run at their DL. I'll then look at the DL's pace and tackling mainly to see if I can find any weaknesses. If I have the luxury, compare the 2 or 3 players capable of being Wingers for me and see if they can outpace the DL or if their dribbling is much better than his tackling.

ML vs DR

My ML is a Wide Midfielder/Support. I have given him licence to cut inside with the ball. So I'll pay attention to the DR's Acceleration, Positioning, Agility and Tackling to see if I have a player that can take advantage of that match up. If I have a player who is faster and more agile, their DR won't be able to keep up, so dribbling vs his tackling won't even come into it. Otherwise, maybe I have a player with a better Off the Ball compared to his Positioning, I know he'll be able to get into space more to receive the ball, so then he also ideally needs a Dribbling vs Tackling advantage.

----

It's a similar case for Strikers, although I don't change my Support striker too much as he will be quite key to the team and how I play. He drops off anyway, so should be in space, however I decide to find him. The other striker, the biggest goal threat, is more flexible.

STCL vs DCR

I create tactics that are balanced. By that, I mean they can create a variety of goals rather than relying on a single way of scoring. That's why I can be flexible here. If I relied almost completely on crosses and my striker being able to get on the end of those crosses, what happens when he's up against a huge, aerially dominant defender? This is where you either need a plan B or a balanced tactic.

Our (users in general) teams usually have a few strikers to choose from so often, I'll base the player selection on the opposition defender, but keep the role the same, most of the time. So the tactic will still function the same way, I'm just giving some of the ways of scoring goals a better chance. That's true for any of the other selections too.

Is he tall (high Jumping Reach) but slow? My faster Poacher-type should get the better of him then. Is he fast, but short? The taller forward (with better JR) should beat him in the air. The others are Tackling vs Dribbling, Off the Ball vs Positioning and Marking.

---

The same goes for the defensive side of things. I may not know the roles the players will play in, but I can see their attributes. So I'll make sure I have a good tackler against that good, dribbling winger who gets most of their assists.

Their top scorer is a giant and profiting from crosses from that winger. I'll put my best jumper up against him to hopefully keep him quiet.

Or if there's a key playmaker in at CM, I'll make sure at the very least, I put an aggressive tackling machine up against him, even if I don't change the role. OIs can be your friend to take care of this too.

The other attributes can't be forgotten though. It's no good putting your best tackling fullback to take care of the winger's dribbling, but he's so slow compared to the winger that you've plugged one mis-match but created another.