Introducing Mr. underrated:Jupp Heynckes

[SherringFord]

Every school has them.Boys(or girls)who have talent but just can't seem to be able to impress teachers with it, this is usually owing to shyness or simply just a lack of interest in glory or credit, they have great and innovative ideas for projects, but their presentation fails them.

Meet Jupp Heynckes, the epitome of underrated.Someone whose career of goal-scoring brilliance was eclipsed by Gerd Muller, he won the Champions League with Real Madrid, only to be sacked for finishing in 4th in La Liga.Since then, he went under the radar for a while, taking low key jobs at Schalke and Borussia M'gladbach.Then he burst onto the scene for one last bang, coming out of retirement to take the post of caretaker at Bayern Munich and helped Bayern achieve Champions League qualification by winning 4 of the last 5 matches and drew the last one.He then signed a two year contract with Leverkusen who he led to record season start of 24 games unbeaten, only for it to fall apart Arsenal style, a title challenge petering out to a 4th place finish.The second season however, was more consistent, a 2nd place finish behind champions Dortmund.Even after such and impressive run in the league, Heynckes was not even an option to be considered for the so-called big clubs.But Bayern, as they always have an eye out for a good deal, swooped in and snapped him up.

In his 1st season at Bayern, Heynckes ended 2nd best to Dortmund's Jurgen Klopp, losing the league and Dfb Pokal final to him.But there were signs of improvement at Bayern, the defence was much tighter and the attack hadn't been blunted at all.The second season will always be remembered for the Neverkusen curse or the 'Treble Horror', Heynckes' Bayern finished 2nd best in all competitions, famously losing the CL final at the Allianz to Roberto di Matteo's Chelsea 4-3 on penalties after controlling the game for most of the match and going up in the 83rd minute only for Chelsea to equalise and break Bayern hearts on penalties

But it was what he did in his 3rd season that was truly great, in fact it was so great that even today, 3 years later we are scratching our heads and trying to replicate how his team played.Heynckes' Bayern didn't play the Tiki-taka football of Barca, nor did they play with the airtight defense of Mourinho's Inter.They played a perfect blend of the two, with Klopp's counter-pressing acting as the glue, it was tactics at it's finest.They were not the 1st team to win the treble but they were definitely the first ones to do it without playing just one way, that was the beauty of Heynckes' Bayern, they didn't say 'This is how we play, if we win, we win, if we lose, the others played dirty.'They said 'Throw whatever you want to throw at us, we're still gonna win'.And win they did, destroying Tito Vilanova's Barcelona 7-0 on aggregate in the champions league semis and going on to win all three main titles in a season full of tactical tweaks and changes.

And now, the job at hand for us, unfortunately is to replicate the brilliance of this team.While I know a fair bit about Heynckes and his Bayern, knowledge gained by watching a team at the stadium or watching a team for an entire season always remains unprecedented, so I'm always open to your suggestions, feel free to point out mistakes that you think I have made.For starters, could anyone who owns FM14(or whichever one was released afterthe treble winning season)post or PM me a list of the PPMs for all of the players who were in Bayern's main starting XI(Neuer, Alaba, Boateng, Dante, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Muller, Ribery, Robben and Mandzukic)

This project will be divided into 3 parts.Bayern's proactive pressing strategy vs big teams, Bayern's more defensive strategy vs big teams and Bayern's strategy vs small teams.For now, we'll be trying to replicate Bayern's proactive attacking strategy vs big teams.(See 3-0 Victory vs Barcelona in the 2nd leg).

I know that I haven't put in anything tactical yet, I'll put up a detailed player analysis and a tactic when I return later, PPMs included if I get them in time.Meanwhile, you could pitch ideas about Team shape, Mentality and what TIs/PIs to use.

Note:My current interpretation of Bayern's proactive attacking tactic is very closed to Ozil's interpretation of the The Invincibles(another team to successfully blend possession and attacking football)so I may make references to it from time to time.So, if you want to, you can read up on it here http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/458881-Arsene-Wenger-s-Invincibles . Owing to this, @Ozil I expect you to be much more than 'a keen follower' for us

[Torminator]

Can't wait to see where this goes. I loved the way bayern performed under Heynkes. As you said it was the perfect mix of all these great individual tactics.

Good luck!

[Oppiiz]

Looking forward to this!

Good luck!

[JWVG]

Oh yes, a great team and a great manager! Their wingplay with the Alaba/Ribery and Lahm/Robben combination was exceptional!

Just one thing:

And win they did, destroying Pep's Barcelona 7-0 on aggregate in the champions league semis and going on to win all three main titles in a season full of tactical tweaks and changes.

It was Tito Vilanovas Barca 2012-13.

[SherringFord]

Oh yes, a great team and a great manager! Their wingplay with the Alaba/Ribery and Lahm/Robben combination was exceptional!

Just one thing:

It was Tito Vilanovas Barca 2012-13.

Oops.Sorry for the mistake.They were so similar in the way they played, got them confused.Not doing very well with the proactive pressing tactic, so I decided that I'd do the Counter-attacking one first, expect a post in about 18 hours time.Btw, is there a way to encourage strikers to play through balls while the other moves into a channel?Whenever one of my front two(Muller and Lewa)moves into a channel while the other is in possession, the other one doesn't play the ball into the channel, missing an opportunity, on other times, the ball is played into a channel without the other striker not moving into it, please help me here(Lewa is a CF(S)with movie into channels and Muller and AM(A) with move into channels and close down more; Mentality is control and shape is fluid with Pass into space, high line, Closing down more, Prevent GK distribution and Play out of defense)

Edit:Got the defence right, now to get the attacking clicking...

[TheJanitor]

Really like this opening post, looking forward to see how you fare as Jupp's Bayern of 2012/2013 was one of the best teams I remember.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Duplicate.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I think this is going to be interesting

You've clearly got some sound knowledge of the playing style, which is a good start. My advice would be to start by boiling that down into 5-6 key traits that you can implement using the tactics creator and then watch in the match engine.

If you look at any of my threads, I start with the theory and conclude the theory with the 5-6 points I am trying to create.

This looks like you may use one formation with two different playing styles depending on the opponent, which I think would be common for many modern managers.

[SherringFord]

Thanks for the good wishes, Ozil, your advice and pointers are always appreciated, how would you play your wingers here?Both of them would sit narrow and occupy half spaces when defending and then surge wide to facilitate counters.Ribery played as a wide player who would sometimes cut inside but usually dealt in low crosses from the left.Robben on the other hand would sit narrow, surge wide on counters, then cut inside to cause havoc and then shot or cross.For Robben I'm pretty sure I can achieve this by playing him as a W(A) and having the width on narrow, because he has cuts inside from right wing PPM.Should I do the same for Ribery(He has a cuts inside from left PPM).

I'll post the write up when I am back from my class, so keep an eye out for it

[Jambo98]

Yup look forward to reading about this. Will be interesting to see how you set it up. My memory is that it was quite rigid in midfield, to great effect. Basti and Javi Martinez holding, although Javi was very much defensive and Basti much more of an all round play maker, but they defended quite close to the Dline. The wide men definitely shuttled and had to contribute a lot to defence. I think from your last post, you might want to look at the WM role rather than W, purely because it allows a bit more customisation with the PI's. You can create better hybrid roles with the WM.

Up front Lewandowski should be well suited to the Manduzic role, defensively at least. One of the biggest feature of the Heynckes system was the relentless pressing by the 2 forwards, which allowed the midfield to keep its shape.

If i had to show it in FM formation terms, i would say it was 4 2 2 1 1 with 2 x DM, ML / MR and AMC / ST. I would also not say they defended high at all. They defended much deeper than under Pep (i recall reading some of the player, i think in one of Peps books, talking about the challenges of learning the much higher line).

The pressing will be interesting, from what i recall and the odd clips i have had a quick look at, Bayern operated quite a split model at times. The 2 strikers aggresive high press, whilst the wide men often did the opposite and dropped off deep, only perssing as play moved into their own half.

For a brilliant detail article on Bayerns pressing that season - http://spielverlagerung.com/2013/03/08/english-bayern-munichs-pressing-201213/

Meanwhile in terms of FM, FM14 was released just shortly before the end of the treble season (Game came out in mid April). I will fire it up and get you the PPMs if you like?

[Jambo98]

PPM taken from FM14 (database 14.3.0).

Neuer - None

Lahm - Plays short simple passes, stops play, tries to play way out of trouble, dives into tackles

Boateng - Dives into tackles, likes to switch the ball to the other flank

Dante - Marks Opponent Tightly, Tries to play way out of trouble, Dives into tackles

Alaba - Knocks ball past opponent

Schweinsteiger - Dictates Tempo, Stops Play, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

Javi Martinez - Plays Short Simple Passes, Tries to play way out of trouble

Robben - Curls ball, cuts inside, avoids using weaker foot

Ribery - Places shots, Cuts inside, knocks ball past opponent

Muller - Moves into channels, Places shots, Likes to round keeper, Plays one-two's

Mandzukic - Places shots, argues with officials, plays with back to goal

(NB - Looks like 14.3.0 came out after the following summer transfer window, as Thiago is at Bayern and he was a Pep signing).

Hope this helps

[SherringFord]

PPM taken from FM14 (database 14.3.0).

Neuer - None

Lahm - Plays short simple passes, stops play, tries to play way out of trouble, dives into tackles

Boateng - Dives into tackles, likes to switch the ball to the other flank

Dante - Marks Opponent Tightly, Tries to play way out of trouble, Dives into tackles

Alaba - Knocks ball past opponent

Schweinsteiger - Dictates Tempo, Stops Play, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

Javi Martinez - Plays Short Simple Passes, Tries to play way out of trouble

Robben - Curls ball, cuts inside, avoids using weaker foot

Ribery - Places shots, Cuts inside, knocks ball past opponent

Muller - Moves into channels, Places shots, Likes to round keeper, Plays one-two's

Mandzukic - Places shots, argues with officials, plays with back to goal

(NB - Looks like 14.3.0 came out after the following summer transfer window, as Thiago is at Bayern and he was a Pep signing).

Hope this helps

Thanks!

Here I go

Since the intro is done, I'll jump right into the tactic

Jupp Heynckes Defensive Big Game Tactic

Resources

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2013/04/24/bayern-munich-4-0-barcelona-bayern-produce-an-astonishingly-dominant-performance/

http://spielverlagerung.com/2013/04/27/bayern-munich-fc-barcelona-in-depth/

http://spielverlagerung.com/2013/03/08/english-bayern-munichs-pressing-201213/

Theory

Formation

A Simple 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 by the way you look at it.But since we want Muller to have more more space to roam around in and do his raumdeuter duties, we set it up in a stunted 4-4-1-1(AMLC)(I always like my deeper forwards cutting in on their stronger foot).

So, from these analyses, I surmise the tactic as follows.

- 2 Narrow banks of four in defense.

- Low Block, High Pressing(explained later)

- Free flowing football on the ball through the wings

- Double pivot with more physical midfielder sitting deep and more dynamic midfielder moving around dictating tempo.

- No offside trap.

- Zonal Marking + situational man marking(how do we do this?)

Jose Mourinho:Low Block, High Pressing

'We want to play with a low block and press high'

- Jose Mourinho

When Jose Mourinho uttered these words, half the world's pundits were laughing at how such a paradox was possible, but Jose showed us the way and Heynckes was one of the wise few who understood what Jose's words truly meant.

Heynckes' Bayern Counter pressed high as soon as it lost the ball(high pressing), but, when their press was bypassed, they dropped deep into 2 Banks of four(low block).

According to me, their sequence of play after losing the ball was simple

Counter press(success)-->Win Ball-->Counter

Counter Press(failure)-->Drop into Low block-->Win Ball-->Counter

So, to summarise

- High Pressing when GK/CBs are in possession

- Hassling by Strikers

- Expansive football on the ball

- Concession of the wings, narrow play to facilitate quick counters on the break through wide areas(little to no cover on the wings due to the opposition having come narrow).

- Build up from defense if a counter is not on

So, how does all this translate into FM?

Playing Style(Mentality, Shape and Team Instructions)

Mentality:Attacking( with control + the pressing wasn't going very well, it was too Conservative)

Shape: Fluid(Divided into Attacking and Defensive units, Allows seamless movements of banks of four across the pitch alongside allowing Creative freedom on the ball)

Team instructions:

- Drop Slightly Deeper(Low Block)

- More Closing Down(High Pressing)

- Play Narrow(Decreasing the space we have to defend, conceding the wings- Atletico style)

- Prevent Short GK Distribution(To facilitate pressing teams when GK and CBs are in possession, then dropping back)

- Pass into Space(For Counter Attacks)

- Play Out Of Defense(Iffy, Bayern surely played out of defence when the counter was not on, but seems to hamper counters when they are on, so I'm on the fence with this one.

That's all for now, folks tune in tomorrow for a player analysis for this tactic.

@Ozil, could I please use your beautiful format for my player analysis?

For anyone looking for a good read: http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/01/09/atletico-madrid-the-secret-behind-europes-most-solid-defence/

[Cam8]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops, as I absolutely loved that Bayern team.

A couple of comments from me:

- I don't think the Barcelona game does justice to how they really played. For me they're a possession team, albeit a more direct one. They averaged 58% possession in the Bundesliga, and apparently only Barcelona had higher possession and passing stats that season (See Jonathan Wilson: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/28/tactical-trends-2012-13)

- It's worth paying attention to how Heynckes used the N.10 role. Kroos enabled Bayern to dictate the game due to his passing prowess and movement off the ball (dropping deep and moving laterally), while Muller was a defensive workhorse who provided the penetrating runs from deep

- The Juventus game in the CL Quarter final was a good example of how Heynckes used the N.10 to mark out deep lying playmakers such as Pirlo

- When considering roles for the double pivot, I'd be careful labelling Javi Martinez as a pure holding midfielder. If you watch some clips closely, he did tend to venture into the opposition box a fair bit.

This is also a useful article showing aspects of their play:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1656404-how-bayern-munichs-success-might-change-tactics-across-europe-next-season

[SherringFord]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops, as I absolutely loved that Bayern team.

A couple of comments from me:

- I don't think the Barcelona game does justice to how they really played. For me they're a possession team, albeit a more direct one. They averaged 58% possession in the Bundesliga, and apparently only Barcelona had higher possession and passing stats that season (See Jonathan Wilson: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/28/tactical-trends-2012-13)

- It's worth paying attention to how Heynckes used the N.10 role. Kroos enabled Bayern to dictate the game due to his passing prowess and movement off the ball (dropping deep and moving laterally), while Muller was a defensive workhorse who provided the penetrating runs from deep

- The Juventus game in the CL Quarter final was a good example of how Heynckes used the N.10 to mark out deep lying playmakers such as Pirlo

- When considering roles for the double pivot, I'd be careful labelling Javi Martinez as a pure holding midfielder. If you watch some clips closely, he did tend to venture into the opposition box a fair bit.

This is also a useful article showing aspects of their play:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1656404-how-bayern-munichs-success-might-change-tactics-across-europe-next-season

I agree with all you said.Kroos' role is difficult to replicate, so I am letting it be for the time being.This tactic is just a replication of how they played against big teams in Europe, their most defensive tactic, there is more to come, replicating their high pressing tactic(Juve/Arsenal) and their tactics vs small teams

[SherringFord]

I'm looking forward to seeing how this develops, as I absolutely loved that Bayern team.

A couple of comments from me:

- I don't think the Barcelona game does justice to how they really played. For me they're a possession team, albeit a more direct one. They averaged 58% possession in the Bundesliga, and apparently only Barcelona had higher possession and passing stats that season (See Jonathan Wilson: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/may/28/tactical-trends-2012-13)

- It's worth paying attention to how Heynckes used the N.10 role. Kroos enabled Bayern to dictate the game due to his passing prowess and movement off the ball (dropping deep and moving laterally), while Muller was a defensive workhorse who provided the penetrating runs from deep

- The Juventus game in the CL Quarter final was a good example of how Heynckes used the N.10 to mark out deep lying playmakers such as Pirlo

- When considering roles for the double pivot, I'd be careful labelling Javi Martinez as a pure holding midfielder. If you watch some clips closely, he did tend to venture into the opposition box a fair bit.

This is also a useful article showing aspects of their play:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1656404-how-bayern-munichs-success-might-change-tactics-across-europe-next-season

I agree with all you said.Kroos' role is difficult to replicate, so I am letting it be for the time being.This tactic is just a replication of how they played against big teams in Europe, their most defensive tactic, there is more to come, replicating their high pressing tactic(Juve/Arsenal) and their tactics vs small teams

[Jambo98]

Hmmm.......their most defensive tactic, with a mentality of "attack"......

Be great to see some of it in action. I was almost tempted to start a save in FM14 at the same time when i fired it up to get you the PPMs......but i cant even recall what the ME was like that far back!

[SherringFord]

Hmmm.......their most defensive tactic, with a mentality of "attack"......

Be great to see some of it in action. I was almost tempted to start a save in FM14 at the same time when i fired it up to get you the PPMs......but i cant even recall what the ME was like that far back!

Yea, it's funny, what's even more funny though is that the next tactic(more attacking is actually on Control!)

[poobington]

Any updates on this Sherring?

[Limmy]

Good start mate will definitely keeping a keen eye on this thread. That Bayern team of 12/13 is the most complete team I've ever seen and without doubt the most aesthetically pleasing from a personal point of view.

I've tried a few times to re-create their style in FM and it's fairly tough. I think Fluid+Attack with the deep line and narrow width nullifies their dominance in the middle of the park and from my experience completely surrenders possession. On the other hand though the counter attacks are absolutely lethal with Robben/Costa and Coman/Ribery causing mayhem cutting inside from the wings when attacking which is very similar to the way they played against Barca in the semi...

Upfront I went with Lewandowski & Muller as a CF (A) & DLF (S) with Muller set to roam to try and reflect his movement IRL and (sort of) redeem a 4-2-3-1 shape.

EDIT: Will post up my attempt of the tactics once I get in from work.

[Jonny2J]

I'd be interested to see how this progresses as I know a few people over the years have mentioned trying to get some kind of Heynckes Bayern thing going.

As well as the version played around the time of the 2013 Champions League Quarters onwards, I seem to remember in games where Heynckes wanted to dominate the ball more before Kroos got injured he would often play as a number 10/advanced playmaker.

[Jean0987654321]

I think this can be done. But you need TWO tactics instead of one: the first one is a normal tactic and the second is a defensive tactic against big teams. Remember what mentalities does to your shape. The higher the mentality, the wider the width of the team is. I recommend to use lower mentalities and then, you can move the d-line up and you can press in a narrow and compact unit. I got a couple of systems already testing. Should have something tomorrow or the day after

[Jonny2J]

Great stuff, looking forward to seeing them in action.

[Jean0987654321]

Alright, here is my interpretation

Bayern plays an asymentric 4231 formation that turns into a 442 in attack. So, I went with this shape. You get wingers tracking back to help form the two banks of four and hopefully the DMs help emulate the defensive shape IRL

I went with Standard because I wanted to keep the players closer to each other when we are defending. As Ozil showed in his Sacchi thread that this works well.

TIs

Pass Into Space

Bayern wasn't afriad of nicking a through ball here and there when they attacked

Play Out of Defense

Bayern had TWO great CBs that were able to bring the ball up to midfield instead of hoofing it away.

Whipped Crosses

Bayern's goals usually came from a cross. Having a big man like MM will do that for ya.

Play Narrower

Once again, keep the players closer to each other at all times

Exploit the Flanks/Run At Defense

Robbery was a sight to see and they were both epic on the break.

Close Down Much More/Stay On Feet/Tighter Marking/Prevent Short GK Distribution/Much Higher Defensive Line

There, we have our pressing system. With this, we'll be able to press high on a low block but stay narrow and compact.

PIs:

The Neuer role is tough to emulate in this game but SK (a) comes the closest

This is the Boateng role. He has great technical ability but he usually provides cover for his partner when defending

The Dante role. His role at Gladbach required him to bring the ball out of defense and stop attacks from happening outside the box...and his role stays the same at Bayern.

x 2

Both Lahm and Alaba tending to overlap or underlap Robbery in attack but they were not bombing up and down the flanks like CWBs

x 2

The Robbery role. I chose the Winger position because I have both players that has the PPM "Cuts Inside from Right or Left". You can debate this but both men were not afraid of whipping a cross in from a wide position but they also cutted inside too.

Schweini dictated the play from deep and was not afraid to nick an occasional through ball.

Javi Martinez is also great on the ball an provided an attacking threat for Bayern. DLP (d) will fit him nicely, IMO.

This is the role I could that could get as close as the Mueller role. He is nicknamed the Raumdeuter, yes. Too bad there is no role like his in the middle of the park. Kroos role is tough, but I think AP (a) is the closest but only by process of elimination.

MM role. Jose Mourinho once said that having Drogba is like having an extra defender. Then Mario might as well be the white Drogba. He was not afraid to drop deep and help out the defense.

[Jean0987654321]

And for the defensive tactic

Mentality

I adjusted the TIs a bit

Push Higher Up instead of Much Higher Defensive Line because I wanted the team to sit deep and counter but to still press high

[Pivot]

Can someone expand and test this tactic?

[cez]

anyone tried to replicate Jupps tactics in fm18?

[tbuxton92]

On 11/18/2017 at 19:05, cez said:

anyone tried to replicate Jupps tactics in fm18?

I am going to try and merge some replications of his tactics throughout the FM editions. What I would say, however, is that this man is a genius. He evolves as a coach even at his ripe old age. A true great.

[milestobudapest]

Bump for FM20. Reckon we could get any closer to this with the current match engine?