Help with Barcelona's Tiki Taka

[Gorstak79]

Hi lads. I have created, what I beleive to be an exact copy of Barcelona's Tiki Taka tactic, but for some reason, Barcelona doesn't play well with it or have even close to possession it is supposed to achieve. I don't know if the game is bugged or am I doing something wrong, so If someone could take a look at it, I'd be gratefull.

This are the player roles and duties and formation:

These are the team settings:

And these are the shouts used:

Almost every slider is moved by tactic creator. The only thing I changed manually, is set defending corners, and offside trap.

And here is the tactic for download:

http://www.mediafire.com/download/hhoj01ecc1uuk8d/FC_Barcelona(2).tac

Someone please tell me what am I doing wrong or if I should post at the bugs section.

[Steve Odom]

I would consider dropping your forward players to more supporting roles. This involves them more in the game. The reall tike-taka is played at a high tempo; short passing, neutral-attacking style. it really isn't easy to accomplish.

Also, more disciplined? If you are playing tiki-taka, your team should be accomplished enough to make good decisions on their own. Why would you want to control their behaviour that much?

[justdoit94]

Didn't d/l the tactic but having 3 deep lying playmakers is never a good idea. If u havent edited their individual settings then i'd say all 3 have RFD rarely. That's just not going to work. You need some movement in ur midfield and DLP won't give u that. That's not to say that u should remove them altogether. Just change one or two to a DLP and Adv. playmaker partnership.

Ofcourse this wont gurantee that u get 60% possession +, it will just solve the problem of linking up the play.

Another thing, having wingers on attack usually means RFD often. That means that they will take up aggressive positions on the pitch. As far as possession tactics work, you need atleast two outlets for the ball carrier and attacking wingers will provide you with more direct threats rather than passing and probing for a gap patiently.

Your team instructions are fine but i have a feeling u edited them without really knowing the effect on ur players.

I just suggest you drop ur strategy to counter/ fluid and edit the team instructions via the TC rather than manually changing them.

Maybe you could remove long shots from all players manually and drop their passing lengths to short.

[Cleon]

Have you read this?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/275877-The-Barcelona-Style-My-Interpretation

[Bluebird123]

Untick all the sliders because it overrides your shouts. Also, Busquets is more of an Anchor Man.

[Gorstak79]

I would consider dropping your forward players to more supporting roles. This involves them more in the game. The reall tike-taka is played at a high tempo; short passing, neutral-attacking style. it really isn't easy to accomplish. Also, more disciplined? If you are playing tiki-taka, your team should be accomplished enough to make good decisions on their own. Why would you want to control their behaviour that much?

Their creativity is set pretty high anyway because of very fluid philosophy, and I have been trying with more expressive, with some amazing results. Tnx.

Didn't d/l the tactic but having 3 deep lying playmakers is never a good idea. If u havent edited their individual settings then i'd say all 3 have RFD rarely. That's just not going to work. You need some movement in ur midfield and DLP won't give u that. That's not to say that u should remove them altogether. Just change one or two to a DLP and Adv. playmaker partnership.

Ofcourse this wont gurantee that u get 60% possession +, it will just solve the problem of linking up the play.

Another thing, having wingers on attack usually means RFD often. That means that they will take up aggressive positions on the pitch. As far as possession tactics work, you need atleast two outlets for the ball carrier and attacking wingers will provide you with more direct threats rather than passing and probing for a gap patiently.

Your team instructions are fine but i have a feeling u edited them without really knowing the effect on ur players.

I just suggest you drop ur strategy to counter/ fluid and edit the team instructions via the TC rather than manually changing them.

Maybe you could remove long shots from all players manually and drop their passing lengths to short.

You havent tried my tactic I see. Long shots are at minimum to all players. I have set up player roles as the asisstant suggested what those players are best at. If I wanted to create a perfect 4-5-1 formation, my two MC's would be box to box midfielders, but that is not what barca has at it's disposal. Unless, of course, they are playing something they are not trained to do. Wingers and inside forwards are exactly what Barcelona has at it's disposal, and they need to be on attacking duty, because of run from deep often, which is needed for the deep lying forward to work properly He is on attack duty, because he doesn't have strength, which is needed for support duty.

Have you read this?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/275877-The-Barcelona-Style-My-Interpretation

No, I haven't but I will. I have however read articles all over the net about barcelona.

Untick all the sliders because it overrides your shouts. Also, Busquets is more of an Anchor Man.

Busquets doesn't play every game, but I guess I could change that role to anchor man. It doesn't seem to make much difference on the pitch though, and I wanted creative players. And the sliders have been ticked after the shouts where used, so no need to use shouts at every game.

[alinp]

always amazes me when people ask for help - get given advice and then basically ignore it... Hmm - are you Hodgson in disguise?? :-)

[däkkä]

Although you didn't specify which Barcelona team you want to be an "exact copy" of, I'm confident enough to say there should be no Limited Defenders in defence and your midfield roles look horrendous quite frankly. Iniesta's game is totally unlike a DLPsup, he links the midfield with the attack with his running with the ball and deserves an attack duty.

Those are the most glaring mistakes. There's other stuff I might change but the other roles are more debatable and we've been over that topic one too many times already.

[Gorstak79]

always amazes me when people ask for help - get given advice and then basically ignore it... Hmm - are you Hodgson in disguise?? :-)

No, but I know a few things about this game aswell.

Although you didn't specify which Barcelona team you want to be an "exact copy" of, I'm confident enough to say there should be no Limited Defenders in defence and your midfield roles look horrendous quite frankly. Iniesta's game is totally unlike a DLPsup, he links the midfield with the attack with his running with the ball and deserves an attack duty.

Those are the most glaring mistakes. There's other stuff I might change but the other roles are more debatable and we've been over that topic one too many times already.

You are correct. I have set up anchor man with adv.playmaker support and other attack (xavi and iniesta). I have also made a few changes to shouts, like allowing attackers to run with ball, as dribbling is their primary stat, and have also changed the passing to feet, as my team seems to create enough chances through creativity and movement, and it helps retaining possession.

[ham_aka_stam]

You havent tried my tactic I see. Long shots are at minimum to all players. I have set up player roles as the asisstant suggested what those players are best at. If I wanted to create a perfect 4-5-1 formation, my two MC's would be box to box midfielders, but that is not what barca has at it's disposal. Unless, of course, they are playing something they are not trained to do. Wingers and inside forwards are exactly what Barcelona has at it's disposal, and they need to be on attacking duty, because of run from deep often, which is needed for the deep lying forward to work properly He is on attack duty, because he doesn't have strength, which is needed for support duty.

The bold bits are where you're going wrong.

Do you want to recreate the way Barcelona play, or do you want to just put players into the roles you/the assistant think they fit in best.

[Gorstak79]

The bold bits are where you're going wrong.

Do you want to recreate the way Barcelona play, or do you want to just put players into the roles you/the assistant think they fit in best.

The first. How would you set it up?

[Cleon]

The first. How would you set it up?

You should think about how you want to play then fit the roles around bringing all of this together to work as a unit. Think about it all logically and how you see it working and then the role choice is easier to make.

For example if you want to retain the ball in the middle of the pitch then who in the side is going to be doing this? Then have a think about who he will be passing too and his options and make sure he can do the types of passes you require him to do and so on. Do the same for all the key things you need from the tactics. Another example is if you want your IF's to cut inside and score goals then ask yourself how he is going to get the ball to be able to do that and who will create him space in the oppositions defence? So then you know you'd need a striker who drops deep to pull the oppositions defence out of position to create the space needed to do this and so on.

A lot of users tend to throw roles/duties around without really understanding how they all fit together and how it makes the team play. It ends up with a tactic full on individuals rather than a unit when people do it that way which leads to inconsistencies and lack of options.

[ham_aka_stam]

Personally? I'm not altogether sure, it's very difficult to do.

-------------Treq--------------

IF (A)------------------APM (A)

-------------------------------

-------APM (A)-APM (S)-------

-------------A (D)-------------

-------------------------------

WB (A)-BPD ©-BPD (S)-WB (S)

But I've never actually tried it, so I've no idea how well it'd work, and I'd want a year to tinker.

[Cleon]

The post I linked further up is how wwfan thinks Barca played. The settings he used would be a good starting point for anyone trying to recreate Barca's real life tactic. That should give you a good starting point Gorstak.

[ham_aka_stam]

And if it's between listening to me or wwfan, I know who I'd choose (it's not me).

Although I'm pleased I'm on similar lines.

[Cleon]

And if it's between listening to me or wwfan, I know who I'd choose (it's not me).

Although I'm pleased I'm on similar lines.

I played similar settings you posted with Ajax with the exception one MC was just a CM support. Worked great and the IF scored bucket loads of goals.

[s1111]

I started a game with Barca recently for fun and to try to recreate their style. I set it up simply, and have won 12 of 14 with 2 draws with some beautiful football. I average 65% possesion, Xavi completes 70-80 passes per game and Messi has 10 goals in 10.

I play:

----------------- Messi - DLF (S)

-----------Villa IF (A) Pedro - DW (S)

-------------Iniesta CM (S) Xavi AP (S)

------------------Busquets DM (D)

Alba WB (S) Puyol CD (D) Pique CD © Alves WB (S)

-----------------Valdes SK (D)

Very Fluid

Standard/Control

Short Passing

Press More

Drill Crosses

Zonal Marking

Everything else left alone. Sometimes I use Push Higher Up and Work Ball in to Box if I need to. With players as good as Barca's and Very Fluid, you don't need all the specialist roles and lots of fiddling. Just set the system up simply and logically and let the players attributes and PPMs take care of the rest

[Gorstak79]

You should think about how you want to play then fit the roles around bringing all of this together to work as a unit. Think about it all logically and how you see it working and then the role choice is easier to make.

For example if you want to retain the ball in the middle of the pitch then who in the side is going to be doing this? Then have a think about who he will be passing too and his options and make sure he can do the types of passes you require him to do and so on. Do the same for all the key things you need from the tactics. Another example is if you want your IF's to cut inside and score goals then ask yourself how he is going to get the ball to be able to do that and who will create him space in the oppositions defence? So then you know you'd need a striker who drops deep to pull the oppositions defence out of position to create the space needed to do this and so on.

A lot of users tend to throw roles/duties around without really understanding how they all fit together and how it makes the team play. It ends up with a tactic full on individuals rather than a unit when people do it that way which leads to inconsistencies and lack of options.

Personally? I'm not altogether sure, it's very difficult to do.

-------------Treq--------------

IF (A)------------------APM (A)

-------------------------------

-------APM (A)-APM (S)-------

-------------A (D)-------------

-------------------------------

WB (A)-BPD ©-BPD (S)-WB (S)

But I've never actually tried it, so I've no idea how well it'd work, and I'd want a year to tinker.

The post I linked further up is how wwfan thinks Barca played. The settings he used would be a good starting point for anyone trying to recreate Barca's real life tactic. That should give you a good starting point Gorstak.

I think I have gone through the thinking part and set things up nicely. I beleive I was wrong at setting the amr to winger, he should be an inside forward, because he has a wing back with attack duty behind him that bombs forward and gives width. And I have read that post from wwfan, and I found a lot of flaws in it. For example, he thinks barcelona plays zonal marking, which should be true in rl, but he uses hassle opponents shout that sets the players to man marking. Then he uses default tackling, in combination with stay on feet shout which actually lowers everyones tackling to minimum. Next, if barca plays zonal marking with all players at it, then how do they implement offside trap effectively? They dont mark posts at defending corners, and pique and puyol arent marking anyone specifically, they just stick to the zone, which means they are all at zonal marking, and they dont have anyone marking posts so they can push up and use offside trap asap. But to my knowledge, offside trap is played effectively only with two CB's at man marking. Furthermore, shouldn't both cb's be with stopper duties? So they can close wide the gap left by attacking fullback and wingback? Assistant suggests they are both stoppers, and wwfan used a stoper cover combo (which also shouldn't be used with offside trap).

[KevMaaan]

The thing with your original idea is that you have FAR too many specialist roles to be using "very fluid". This is a very common mistake.

[wwfan]

I think I have gone through the thinking part and set things up nicely. I beleive I was wrong at setting the amr to winger, he should be an inside forward, because he has a wing back with attack duty behind him that bombs forward and gives width. And I have read that post from wwfan, and I found a lot of flaws in it. For example, he thinks barcelona plays zonal marking, which should be true in rl, but he uses hassle opponents shout that sets the players to man marking. Then he uses default tackling, in combination with stay on feet shout which actually lowers everyones tackling to minimum. Next, if barca plays zonal marking with all players at it, then how do they implement offside trap effectively? They dont mark posts at defending corners, and pique and puyol arent marking anyone specifically, they just stick to the zone, which means they are all at zonal marking, and they dont have anyone marking posts so they can push up and use offside trap asap. But to my knowledge, offside trap is played effectively only with two CB's at man marking. Furthermore, shouldn't both cb's be with stopper duties? So they can close wide the gap left by attacking fullback and wingback? Assistant suggests they are both stoppers, and wwfan used a stoper cover combo (which also shouldn't be used with offside trap).

As I said in that post, it is only an interpretation and one that takes consideration of the TC limitations. I wouldn't worry about the man-marking in the hassle shout. There's so little difference between man and zonal marking in FM that you can treat them pretty much synonymously. The light tackling is to encourage a long press with an attempt to win the ball on your feet and immediately make a possession pass, which seems to me to be pure Barca. Although Barca play a high line, they certainly don't play a traditional offside trap. They tend to have a staggered line behind a high pressing attack and midfield.

However, as noted above, the fluid philosophy + multiple specialist roles, no TQ, no movement between the lines between midfield and attack, and multiple manually checked sliders that stop (and contradict) the shouts from having any effect, are the root cause of your problems.

[dooro23]

No, but I know a few things about this game aswell.

I'm sorry, but your posts so far indicate you don't. Stop trying to squeeze your ass.man's role suggestion into your tactic. It doesn't matter at all what a player's supposed "best role" is when building a tactic.

Your criticism of wwfan's post isn't really helping your point of arguing with the advice you get, as you obviously haven't read it with anything but half an eye. The things you mentioned and criticized were mostly already covered by the author himself a few lines above in that very post.

[Gorstak79]

The thing with your original idea is that you have FAR too many specialist roles to be using "very fluid". This is a very common mistake.

The objective was to to squeeze the players into a tight knit unit. Therefore the very fluid, push higher up, and play narrow shouts. I could set this lower, but that would mean gaps between the lines, although quite possibly more angles for passes. Or did you want to suggest changing roles? How would you pick them?

As I said in that post, it is only an interpretation and one that takes consideration of the TC limitations. I wouldn't worry about the man-marking in the hassle shout. There's so little difference between man and zonal marking in FM that you can treat them pretty much synonymously. The light tackling is to encourage a long press with an attempt to win the ball on your feet and immediately make a possession pass, which seems to me to be pure Barca. Although Barca play a high line, they certainly don't play a traditional offside trap. They tend to have a staggered line behind a high pressing attack and midfield.

However, as noted above, the fluid philosophy + multiple specialist roles, no TQ, no movement between the lines between midfield and attack, and multiple manually checked sliders that stop (and contradict) the shouts from having any effect, are the root cause of your problems.

The shouts have been used in match, and I have saved the tactic in match, and after match loaded it up and ticked the checkboxes, so the shouts are actually already there, whithout need to use same shouts every game. Trequarista has different mentality then rest of the team, therefore he doesnt switch positions with rest of the team. It is my knowledge that at least three attacking barca players exchange positions, so they must be at same mentality. That means using balanced fluid or very fluid philosophy, and if wanting to use trequarista, means using adv playmakers at amr/l positions, so mentality is the same. They also cut inside, but all three don't have dribling as primary stat, so if using that combo, play through defence shout would be more appropriate.

I'm sorry, but your posts so far indicate you don't. Stop trying to squeeze your ass.man's role suggestion into your tactic. It doesn't matter at all what a player's supposed "best role" is when building a tactic.

Your criticism of wwfan's post isn't really helping your point of arguing with the advice you get, as you obviously haven't read it with anything but half an eye. The things you mentioned and criticized were mostly already covered by the author himself a few lines above in that very post.

I never said i want to squeeze anything. I want exact barcelona tactic. And I wasn't crtisicing anything, I just noticed the flaws. Perhaps some of you still have a thing or two to learn? Possibly, before giving advice?

[Cleon]

Maybe you need to take a step back and look at your own approach before pulling others up. Maybe you've got stuff to learn still too.

Cut out the sniping will you please or I'll close the thread.

People are trying to help you. Remember you was the one posting seeking advice.

[wwfan]

The shouts have been used in match, and I have saved the tactic in match, and after match loaded it up and ticked the checkboxes, so the shouts are actually already there, whithout need to use same shouts every game. Trequarista has different mentality then rest of the team, therefore he doesnt switch positions with rest of the team. It is my knowledge that at least three attacking barca players exchange positions, so they must be at same mentality. That means using balanced fluid or very fluid philosophy, and if wanting to use trequarista, means using adv playmakers at amr/l positions, so mentality is the same. They also cut inside, but all three don't have dribling as primary stat, so if using that combo, play through defence shout would be more appropriate.

I don't know what any of that means. Shouts and ticked sliders do not work together. They cannot both be active. Your team adjustments also conflict with your slider adjustments. Furthermore, you do realise that mentality in FM is an abstract concept with no actual basis in reality? There's no relationship between having the same mentality and players swapping position. FWRs and higher/lower mentality splits are far more likely to have players move past each other.

I never said i want to squeeze anything. I want exact barcelona tactic. And I wasn't crtisicing anything, I just noticed the flaws. Perhaps some of you still have a thing or two to learn? Possibly, before giving advice?

If you don't want advice, then don't ask for it. If you think I have anything to learn about how the TC works, then this conversation will stop right here.

[Gorstak79]

Wow! I guess I need to look for advice somewhere else. By all means, close the thread, I'll find no usefull info here.

[wwfan]

If you don't think my advice on how the TC works is useful, then I'm not too sure where else you can go. I've told you how things work already. You just don't seem to want to listen.

[wwfan]

Have you read through the 12 Steps Guide stickied at the top of the forum? That will point you very much in the right direction. I suggest you read it as it overviews the basics of tactical settings. You'll need to read through the entire thread to get all the really useful information from it. Once you have, you can look at Cleon's threads, which tend to go into more detail about specifics.

Until you do, you'll find you are talking at cross purposes to many posters here. We simply will not agree with your TC interpretations and you won't get anywhere.

[Uncle_Sam]

Wow! I guess I need to look for advice somewhere else. By all means, close the thread, I'll find no usefull info here.

You do realize that wwfan had significant input into how the tactics creator in FM was designed, don't you?

[ham_aka_stam]

The objective was to to squeeze the players into a tight knit unit. Therefore the very fluid, push higher up, and play narrow shouts. I could set this lower, but that would mean gaps between the lines, although quite possibly more angles for passes. Or did you want to suggest changing roles? How would you pick them?

The shouts have been used in match, and I have saved the tactic in match, and after match loaded it up and ticked the checkboxes, so the shouts are actually already there, whithout need to use same shouts every game. Trequarista has different mentality then rest of the team, therefore he doesnt switch positions with rest of the team. It is my knowledge that at least three attacking barca players exchange positions, so they must be at same mentality. That means using balanced fluid or very fluid philosophy, and if wanting to use trequarista, means using adv playmakers at amr/l positions, so mentality is the same. They also cut inside, but all three don't have dribling as primary stat, so if using that combo, play through defence shout would be more appropriate.

I never said i want to squeeze anything. I want exact barcelona tactic. And I wasn't crtisicing anything, I just noticed the flaws. Perhaps some of you still have a thing or two to learn? Possibly, before giving advice?

Yes, people are suggesting changing roles (slaps forehead) that's what we've been going on about.

When you loaded that tactic out of match, it should not have saved the shouts' actions.

You do not have to be the same mentality to switch positions, whether that's the official dropdown option in game, or the natural movement of players.

Stop worrying about mentality, and stop worrying about dribbling being their primary stat, cut inside doesn't increase the frequency of dribbles, also you can use the "Play through defence" shout if you want to reduce dribbling.

If you want "exact barcelona" then you'd chose a Trequartista, I think the vast majority of people will tell you that. Messi simply cannot be given any other role from the ST position to make him play how he does in RL.

[ham_aka_stam]

Perhaps some of you still have a thing or two to learn? Possibly, before giving advice?

Yeah, wwfan, go learn some more!

Seriously, are you trying to troll T&TF? How sad.