I have never had a good youth player

[Euskadi]

This strikes me as rather odd. In my many, many years playing FM I have never once had a youth regen that was any good. I thought this may just be me writing them off too soon so I started using Genie Scout to check their potential but I was right - they're all crap. Every year.

To give you an idea of what I mean by crap, my first team is rated at around 74%. The highest potential of my latest intake is 61%. That's barely good enough to make the first team of the worst clubs in my division.

I am Celtic btw and my youth facilities are 19.

Every other AI controlled club gets absolute gems coming through, in the past couple of seasons I've snapped up some excellent Scottish talent from West Brom whose Youth Facilities are 18, lower than mine.

Is there a reason for this or is it just another example of the game cheating to provide difficulty?

[Ackter]

Rather than look at the percentages, which translate to absolutely nothing tangiable whatsoever, try looking at attributes and performance after you've developed them.

90% of your players will be below the level you need them to be. 8% of them will be able to do some sort of job for your team. 2% will be first team players.

[Euskadi]

I knew somebody would say that. I only mentioned them as it was easier than listing out all the attributes for the players. The percentages are calculated from the key attributes for each position anyway, so dismissing them is silly.

No player I've had has ever been good enough for the first team. At most they've filled in for injuries or cup games but they inevitably end up being released come the end of their contract.

[scott MUFC]

It is luck, on my united save the best English talents have come through places like Watford, Crewe (twice) and Braintree(?), on anoyhter i got a superb 199PA defender from Ross county, they will come, be patient, one of my youth players is good enough for the premier league on my United save, because they are on Loan there.

the percentages? don't worry about those, I have seen them increase.

[Simply Perfect]

To be honest, it seems a little random. For example, I spent years at Chester. I had one player, who is probably a good Championship player, who I relied upon to get to the Championship. I left that season. The following March they had two players come through who, if they reach their potential, will be beyond world class.

I had left for Tottenham, and in that time I've had one youth team player of a similar level. Chester's facilities aren't close to Tottenham's (I've maxed out youth recruitment network, youth and training facilities with 4.5 - 5* coaches throughout). So there's a touch of luck to it.

[haunted1234]

you do know that the % you are using are very dynamic?

if you have a player with say 80 CA = 50% PA 60%, and a PA of 150, you could skyrocket him to 70%++ with good coaches and the right training

[SpartyOn]

In real life, Celtic produces very few youth players that are good enough to crack its first-team squad. And if you're halfway decent at FM, you'll raise the first-team standard significantly as you play.

[Lawlore]

Well, to put it in perspective, none of the latest real-life England squad came through the ranks at Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea or Liverpool.

I haven't compared their FM ratings, but I'd imagine off-hand that all of those clubs have youth facilities that would trump those of some of the clubs who did have players in that squad, such as Shrewsbury, Wolves and Sheffield United.

[Euskadi]

they will come, be patient

I've played FM since the CM days, hundreds and hundreds of hours into hundreds of saves.

In real life, Celtic produces very few youth players that are good enough to crack its first-team squad. And if you're halfway decent at FM, you'll raise the first-team standard significantly as you play.

In real life Celtic don't win the Europa, Champions League etc...

And besides, James Forrest is one of the best young talents in Scottish football. McManus and McGeady also came through the ranks, as did Mulgrew, Maloney, McGeouch not to mention all the players at other SPL clubs who started at Celtic.

[darthrodent]

Try starting a game with Southampton, mate. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Unknown Hacker]

Strange, after maxing out the facilities and recruitment I tend to average 1 first team player and 1 jobber a year. I'll admit that they rarely get games because my first team squad is so strong, but I reckon we've produced about 5/6 players who are doing a job at the top level plus 1 player who is world class.

[Jibby123]

Try starting a game with Southampton, mate. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

They are a hot prospect production line in-game. If I'm at a club who can, their yth team is my first hoover down.

People get too hung up on CA/PA I think, using 3rd party or the editor, I've had PA 150 who I hate, PA 90 who nail it for me. And working on developing a youth player is an art in itself, so put the effort in and be patient?

[Richard76]

I've had very very few ever.

I had an Arsenal save a few months ago and seemed I had a ton of great players coming through the ranks.

Suggests to me that is does depend which team you are.

My first save is always with Leicester. Never ever had a top quality player come through the ranks in any of the FM games.

[Rotterdam]

I'm in my 7th season with my barca save, and I get atleast one 4-4,5* player each year. At the moment my entire midfield consists of regens that came through my own ranks, all at least 4 stars. Have a bunch of strikers aswell, but only 1 striker position which Messi still owns. I have gotten zero decent defenders though.

I have noticed in past games, when looking though the barca youth teams, that they ALWAYS get decent/good strikers and midfielders but never any defenders. Is this hardcoded in the game or purely random, or does it have something to do with the head of youth department?

[Euskadi]

I think I might test my theory re. the game cheating by resigning just before the youth intake and seeing if the intake is much better when it's AI controlled.

I suspect it is the case, the same way the AI will buy and sell players between teams for far more money than they ever offer you - and players will reject your 45k a week contract and then sign for another club for 15k.

[dooro23]

Let the conspiracies begin...! Because of Genie scout percentages? Seriously?

I'm in my 2nd year in the Bundesliga with Hansa Rostock in my current save and am fielding 11 players of Germany's U19, 6 players of the U21 and have 1 Senior International, despite the real players still running the show (3-4 regens made it into German squad so far). All bar 2 (1 U21, 1 U19) are from my youth intakes (Above average youth recruitment ever since).

5 of those 18 players are in the Senior Squad, so there's no artificial CA pushing, just careful development like it's suggested in the various threads about Youth Development.

Not all will end up as star players, far from it, but there's more to your youth players than some abstract numbers or percentages you use to judge them, before they had the chance to develop.

edit: I see you think that youth facilities are responsible for the quality of your youth intake. It's youth recruitment and country dependant.

[Euskadi]

Let the conspiracies begin...! Because of Genie scout percentages? Seriously?

No, because of actual attributes and match performances as already stated in this thread.

It's not really a conspiracy. The game quite obviously treats human controlled clubs differently, I gave two examples in my post.

Not all will end up as star players, far from it

I don't expect them to, I do however expect to maybe have....one star player in my many years playing FM. Or even a handful of players good enough for even the worst teams in my league.

but there's more to your youth players than some abstract numbers or percentages you use to judge them, before they had the chance to develop.

I'm including players I have developed. None of them develop to a level good enough for my team.

edit: I see you think that youth facilities are responsible for the quality of your youth intake. It's youth recruitment and country dependant.

So youth facilities have no bearing on the youth players your club develops? I find that strange. My youth recruitment is also 'maxed out' and I find it strange that you would assume this wasn't the case for me to be making this observation in the first place. Country dependent I understand but it's not as if Scotland doesn't produce any good young talent, even these days, and on my game there are quite a few very good Scottish regens appearing.... at English Championship clubs...

[Ackter]

The youth facilities affect how they develop, sure, but not how they're created.

Ignore the percentages, which are quite frankly awful representations of player ability, and what are the player PAs compared to your club and the rest of the league?

I could fill threads with the great players I've had through the game using the last few versions alone. If it was all time I could fill forums. Scotland (IRL) just doesn't produce great players any more. It produces a few good ones every now and again.

[Ackter]

Here's a few of them with Newcastle:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/7911_10152881509800268_192811320_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/971250_10152881510535268_2129820481_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/282995_10152330947505268_180939679_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/148663_10152330948140268_1997848118_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/303602_10151830713850268_1815390472_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/228041_10150610652460268_4036524_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/227521_10150610652505268_876023_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/230426_10150610712355268_4859449_n.jpg

[gmcker]

I've long given up expecting good players for my team I get the odd playerbut mostly don't. But I take great pleasure in, seeing a newgen being spoken of as good enough for say League 1, training him up and then finding him a career somewhere.

[aderow]

Ackter that last player you have there holy crap. I wish I was that lucky

I have to agree with those that have said to ignore the percentages and actually focus more on their attributes and more importantly how they play. In my last save, the biggest surprise was a right back I and my coaches had written off since day one. 3 seasons and 2 loan spells later, he was making his England debut and pushing for a spot in the starting lineup.

And yeah I think that player development is quite random. I remember finding a quality lad playing for Bury in League 2. How quality? Well I took him to the world cup and he finished joint top scorer. Even scored in the semi final. Was pleasantly surprised by his performances.

What surprised me even more was the fact that no one signed him after his amazing performance in the world cup. It wasn't until 3 seasons later that he got picked up by Stoke and helped them get promoted. He then started scoring for fun in the premiership. And then my hard drive died and I lost that save

I regret not signing that lad...

I've long given up expecting good players for my team I get the odd playerbut mostly don't. But I take great pleasure in, seeing a newgen being spoken of as good enough for say League 1, training him up and then finding him a career somewhere.

I've tried being the same way in the past. I don't get rid of low potential players right away; I'd rather they develop a bit because their best chance of making it anywhere is usually here as I have the best coaches and facilities in my game.

[Ackter]

The potential rating of youngsters is mostly determined by their current ability and their age btw.

Player A: CA85, PA200, 18 years old

Player B: CA120, PA125, 18 years old

Player B would have the higher potential rating in-game because he stands out for ability for his age.

[Herbert Fandel]

The potential rating of youngsters is mostly determined by their current ability and their age btw.

Player A: CA85, PA200, 18 years old

Player B: CA120, PA125, 18 years old

Player B would have the higher potential rating in-game because he stands out for ability for his age.

What? Are you sure about this? This partly comes under what we have all been asking for all this time, and yet noone has ever told us it is already the case?

[Ackter]

What? Are you sure about this? This partly comes under what we have all been asking for all this time, and yet noone has ever told us it is already the case?

Yup, I'm sure.

I give everyone until they're 20 (and sometimes a little older for central defenders and goalkeepers, depending on their development so far) before deciding to offload.

[Herbert Fandel]

Yup, I'm sure.

I give everyone until they're 20 (and sometimes a little older for central defenders and goalkeepers, depending on their development so far) before deciding to offload.

I'm not so sure, but don't know at all.

I have seen players with 5 star PA yet silver star CA, but this wouldn't make any sense under your system.

I always put the 'false' 5 star ratings by scouts down to players injuries, lack of game time, or lack of mental strength to develop, rather than down to the 5 star not actually being based on PA.

I just really don't get it, there have been so many hundreds of posts asking SI to remove scouts' abilities to instantly rate a players PA, why couldn't someone from SI have simply said it was the case already?

[Ackter]

There's an 'attribute' called PPA which uses a load of factors to influence the actual PA value that the scouts report back to you.

I've had a 130/130 player show the same potential as a 100/170 player etc

You get players with 195 PA showing as only 2 star potential because they only have 120 CA at age 22 etc

SI have said many times that scout reports are not 100% accurate, I guess they've just given up saying it as no-one ever listened any way.

[Herbert Fandel]

SI have said many times that scout reports are not 100% accurate, I guess they've just given up saying it as no-one ever listened any way.

Not 100% accurate is well accepted, but scouts shouldn't have any access to the PA at all.

I've been browsing the forum since before my join date and have never seen PPA mentioned before. Learn something new every day.

[Ackter]

It stands for Perceived Potential Ability, and that's what you see when you see the stars in the game.

[BiggusD]

That might explain why some players have 5-star potential rating and then stagnate as two-star 19-year-olds. Rings true to me. I fear my formerly great goalkeeper has reached his maximum because he only swaps some attributes for others, at the age of 20.

Me and a friend took over Chelsea and Arsenal respectively in 2017 (5-year holiday), and by then Chelsea had a worldclass talent already. Since then the best I have got from my own ranks are 2-star players, but those are of course "good player for most Premier League sides" (so they are quality players, really), and I get a few every year. Since they play both youth and reserve matches I need 30+ players i the youth squad, so I sign everyone one-star and above - and some of them go on to have professional careers. The real talents I pick up from other clubs.

I am afraid that the league standard of Scottish Premier along with the country parameters will prevent you from getting world-class players altogether. The odd gem will be completely random, just like those coming from other small countries around the world once a decade.

Just think of this, in our two-player game, I have 5-6 world-class players and so does he. The other big clubs around the world probably have like 10 more put together, max. So 20 world-class regens in 2021, after 8 batches of academy players in a 50/60 000 player database with all the big leagues loaded. Let's say that a total of 40 came through but only half of them reached their potential (very generous numbers) - what are the odds of one player of such quality being spawned in Celtic?

There are many zeroes in that number and all of them are to the left.

[Herbert Fandel]

It stands for Perceived Potential Ability, and that's what you see when you see the stars in the game.

Well in that case I change my request to SI to for PPA to have minimal relation to PA, rather than some (if I understand you correctly)

If it already has minimal, then perhaps I enjoy FM more than I thought.

Now all we need is for every player to have a wide PA bracket.

[Ackter]

That might explain why some players have 5-star potential rating and then stagnate as two-star 19-year-olds. Rings true to me. I fear my formerly great goalkeeper has reached his maximum because he only swaps some attributes for others, at the age of 20.

Yeah, that tends to happen when a player is within about 5 points of his PA

[Ackter]

Well in that case I change my request to SI to for PPA to have minimal relation to PA, rather than some (if I understand you correctly)

If it already has minimal, then perhaps I enjoy FM more than I thought.

Now all we need is for every player to have a wide PA bracket.

I'd like to see PA removed from the equation entirely - it may already have been for all I know, but it doesn't look like it to me.

[Herbert Fandel]

I'd like to see PA removed from the equation entirely - it may already have been for all I know, but it doesn't look like it to me.

I did type no relation initially, but changed it in anticipation of someone telling me 'PA' isn't an entirely ficticious concept IRL. If it isn't ficticious then it is minimal, so we more or less agree.

[Soccer]

Statistics are just one thing. Have you ever tried playing them and see how they perform?

I occasionally blood youth team players into my first team and they do surprise me - some of them playing even better than those 10 years older!

[I'm Me]

I had this issue for years also, even though the first thing I do is try to improve my youth facilities as I like to see my own players come through (the one true great player I produced became my national team captain and I won the WC with him, then when I quit the England post he never got selected again by the AI manager - why do the AI national mangers insist on picking a 38yr old Wayne Rooney who doesn't play a single game a season over a regen player or a lesser known name averaging 8 per game?)

Anyway, I'm sad to say that I kind of started to every so often cheat in order to get good youth players (not always). I didn't do it every year but I occasionally saved the game before the new batch came through then kept reloading until I had a player above 2 stars in potential ability.