ArsenalFan7

Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

600 posts in this topic

Yeah, one of mine recently suffered a strained neck while simply standing in the centre circle with no-one near him. The match report claimed it was a result of an aerial challenge yet the statistics showed him having 0 headers attempted. Go figure..

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Has anyone ever noticed the 1-on-1 scenario, were the player is clean through on their GK, he sidesteps him to create an empty goal shooting angle, but then kicks it back towards the GK. Bizarre isn't the word.

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[quote name='wwfan']Best advice I can give is the same as the advice I've already given. Stop fiddling around with individual sliders in the mistaken belief that they'll make a significant difference, sort your mentality structure out, and think about how the formation you are employing should create goals. As soon as you start thinking slider numbers, you are going into a world of pain. Think about how the formation you wish to employ should play. For example, a 4-2-4 needs to be direct and high tempo enough to feed its front players when they are in space whereas a 4-2-3-1 Deep should keep possession deep on the pitch and attack on the counter. That is the most basic thing to thing about.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the reply, wwfan, it is appreciated. I can imagine it is frustrating for you guys when you try to advise and it seems we are set in our ways so much we don't take it.


As you may recall, I do play a deep, defensive 42121 system (2 def mids (1 Achman, 1DLPM,); 1 CM (APM); 2 AIF; 1 GP). Are you saying to stick with the pre-set default mental settings for my CA tactic, rather than manually set them? And as much as I have tried toggling CA to on, I don't seem to notice if it makes any difference other than I keep the ball better. Would you suggest beginning the game with CA ticked, and maybe un-toggle it once I am winning to maybe keep the ball better?

Cheers!

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Yes the AI also have match prep. ( you can see it if you use FMRTE) so they would suffer similar penalities. Think it was pointed out on another thread that they didnt seem to be ulitising it as well as human players.

Though I dislike match prep entirely to be honest.

It may [I]seem[/I] like there is bias, but the FACT is that is no bias in the ME, or in how the AI reacts you on the pitch, or your injuries in relation to AI injuries.[/QUOTE]

You can see it where? On the team data? Because if it is on the team then it means absolutely nothing and the AI doesn't suffer from match preparation.

Why? Because match preparation has been proven plenty of time to be tied with the manager and not the team. Don't believe me? Do this: Take a team and pick a tactic,anything, then holiday 3-4 months and return(have the ass.manager to use that tactic). Retire,add new manager and try getting the players to play the exact same tactic,with zero changes.Bizzare how they will have forgot everything within a single day,right?

In the meantime, manager changes don't affect AI teams as much. Their tactics won't be crap on their first games after a new manager signing as long as the players are good,so it is unlikely that AI is affected at all by match preparation.

Even their motivation is dubious. Like I said on my previous reply,I find it extremelly hard to believe that every team of the league that has abysmal morale,bad players and a streak of 10 loses in a row somehow got to find their lust for football against the very same team every single season. It doesn't matter of what team it is anymore really,if I see a streak of LLLLLL I know what's my next game's outcome will be. Their first W of the season.

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[quote name='Apos']You can see it where? On the team data? Because if it is on the team then it means absolutely nothing and the AI doesn't suffer from match preparation.

Why? Because match preparation has been proven plenty of time to be tied with the manager and not the team. Don't believe me? Do this: Take a team and pick a tactic,anything, then holiday 3-4 months and return(have the ass.manager to use that tactic). Retire,add new manager and try getting the players to play the exact same tactic,with zero changes.Bizzare how they will have forgot everything within a single day,right?

In the meantime, manager changes don't affect AI teams as much. Their tactics won't be crap on their first games after a new manager signing as long as the players are good,so it is unlikely that AI is affected at all by match preparation.

Even their motivation is dubious. Like I said on my previous reply,I find it extremelly hard to believe that every team of the league that has abysmal morale,bad players and a streak of 10 loses in a row somehow got to find their lust for football against the very same team every single season. It doesn't matter of what team it is anymore really,if I see a streak of LLLLLL I know what's my next game's outcome will be. Their first W of the season.[/QUOTE]

Really? proven where? The AI do use from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Really? proven where? The AI do suffer from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.[/QUOTE]

Well said that man.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Well said that man.[/QUOTE]

There are plenty of flaws in FM12, some have been there far too long, but some of the misinformation that gets spun out is actually ridiculous. I don't think some of the inherent flaws in the ME and lack of feedback help combat this, but its the same people being told over and over. They cant seem to accept they might not be as good as they think, and that their preconceptions are holding them back. More important, it sidetracks the debate about the real issues in the game, such as the limitation of the AI, where the TC can be expanded, the areas the new ME fix/focus on.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Really? proven where? The AI do suffer from match prep, you should ask Riz of SI. And how do you know that their tactic wont be as good, maybe they are just better at compensating that you? But there isn't much point going on with this, I've tried to give you advice before, as did several others, even though you decided to be pretty rude to people. But it seems its wasted. You've already decided that game is is stacked against you (which isnt true), and anyone who says otherwise (even those who actually work on the game) is lying.

Everything the AI can do, you can do better.

If I see a streak of LLLL coming, i know what the outcome its, usually a 4-0 win for me.[/QUOTE]

Ye,if you are managing milan or barca maybe. Try some other team and leagues and you might see some different results.

And it seems you fail at reading as well,because I didn't say that the game is stacked against me. I said it "seems", want me to expand on that word so that you understand it better?

If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.

And unless you can prove otherwise yourself,there is not much truth in your words either. There is no feedback provided that proves that the AI is affected by the same parameters as the player. And ask Riz of SI? You mean ask the same people that said that the greek and turkish leagues were fixed in 12.2 even though absolutely nothing was taken care of? Erm...no thanks,I prefer to trust what I see myself and complaints of other players that have the same experiences as mine.

"Everything the AI can do,you can do better"

Ok then,I'd like to see you take over a squad of bad players,none of them professional,all of them on abysmall morale,on a streak of 10+ loses, and win against a superior team that has suberb morale and much better players on every single stats,technical,physical and mental.

And did I mention that their managers have a motivating of 8-10 most of the time? And yet they manage to motivate their players to do the impossible every time? To put it bluntly: "Slim ******* chances!"

I've tried all the advice that was given to me,from you and everyone else. The outcome is the same, outcomes that seem unbelievable, streaks that can't be stopped for anything (wasn't this "supposedly" fixed in 12.2 as well? Go figure!) and generally stupid football from my players. The only thing that was fixed was my injuries for 2 seasons. But that's just like I said before. You either have no injuries or end up renting a hospital floor just for your squad. Start of the next season and 4 injuries on the first friendly. 2 on the second. One of them being 9 months long.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']There are plenty of flaws in FM12, some have been there far too long, but some of the misinformation that gets spun out is actually ridiculous. I don't think some of the inherent flaws in the ME and lack of feedback help combat this, but its the same people being told over and over. They cant seem to accept they might not be as good as they think, and that their preconceptions are holding them back. More important, it sidetracks the debate about the real issues in the game, such as the limitation of the AI, where the TC can be expanded, the areas the new ME fix/focus on.[/QUOTE]

Again spot on. The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses buts its not a disaster zone like it gets made out to be. I dont frequent any other FM forums but the biggest issue i see every day is as you say, the amount of mis-information, usually spread in threads like this, usually by the same 10-15 posters. They drop into every thread you can find making basically the same post each time and point blank refuse to accept it any other way, and your right it takes the focus away from the actual issues, like the lack of ingame feedback on your tactics and such like.

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[quote name='Apos']Ye,if you are managing milan or barca maybe. Try some other team and leagues and you might see some different results.

And it seems you fail at reading as well,because I didn't say that the game is stacked against me. I said it "seems", want me to expand on that word so that you understand it better?

If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.

And unless you can prove otherwise yourself,there is not much truth in your words either. There is no feedback provided that proves that the AI is affected by the same parameters as the player. And ask Riz of SI? You mean ask the same people that said that the greek and turkish leagues were fixed in 12.2 even though absolutely nothing was taken care of? Erm...no thanks,I prefer to trust what I see myself and complaints of other players that have the same experiences as mine.

"Everything the AI can do,you can do better"

Ok then,I'd like to see you take over a squad of bad players,none of them professional,all of them on abysmall morale,on a streak of 10+ loses, and win against a superior team that has suberb morale and much better players on every single stats,technical,physical and mental.

And did I mention that their managers have a motivating of 8-10 most of the time? And yet they manage to motivate their players to do the impossible every time? To put it bluntly: "Slim ******* chances!"

I've tried all the advice that was given to me,from you and everyone else. The outcome is the same, outcomes that seem unbelievable, streaks that can't be stopped for anything (wasn't this "supposedly" fixed in 12.2 as well? Go figure!) and generally stupid football from my players. The only thing that was fixed was my injuries for 2 seasons. But that's just like I said before. You either have no injuries or end up renting a hospital floor just for your squad. Start of the next season and 4 injuries on the first friendly. 2 on the second. One of them being 9 months long.[/QUOTE]

You've just proved my point. Both with the insults and with your attitude, as i said to bullybeef, it may seem like it's stacked against you, but it isn't. You think you somehow know the game better than the creators and the people who work there. I've played from United, to Alaves, to Real Union, to Maccelsfield, to Hayes and Yeading, and dozens of teams in between. Some saves a harder than others, but you are far better equipped than AI. Which is why I can take Doncaster to the CL in 6 seasons and the AI can't. Which is why I can do a backs to the wall job as Torquay against Man City (depsite having lost my previous 4 games in a row) and win 2-0.

We play the same game, if you are getting humped by poor morale sides constantly, you're doing something/somethings wrong.

Trying to create a strawman argument that because an issue wasnt dealt everything SI say is wrong doesn't wash. If you put as much work into trying to take in what people say and dropping your misconceptions as you did making jibes at people who have done nothing but try to help you, you might be less frustrated.

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Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?


If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.


I just wanted to question about the AI tactics, each individual AI manager has a specific tactical preference on their profile, yet they are adept at numerous tactics. Could this also be a questionable advantage?

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Again spot on. The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses buts its not a disaster zone like it gets made out to be. I dont frequent any other FM forums but the biggest issue i see every day is as you say, the amount of mis-information, usually spread in threads like this, usually by the same 10-15 posters. They drop into every thread you can find making basically the same post each time and point blank refuse to accept it any other way, and your right it takes the focus away from the actual issues, like the lack of ingame feedback on your tactics and such like.[/QUOTE]

Lack of feedback is the cause of both sides. And until we actually get that feedback,neither side is correct. Sorry to burst your bubble of being the good and saint forum member. It's not the same 10-15 posters either, I'm the only poster pretty much that has a continuous grudge with the game,pretty much because nothing changes no matter what I try. And that includes advices from anyone here. But I guess people are too cocky of themselves,aren't they? How could my game not improve with their advices,right?

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.

The game is about "here's a random outcome,either you like it or not". The information around that is minimal and also hard to approach as well. (analysis panel,etc) And even if someone checks the analysis panel,the information is still not enough to make a good decision on what to fix, chances are the player might end up making things worse as well.

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[quote name='bullybeef']Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?


If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.[/QUOTE]

Not to "keep within the rule" as such, but simply based on the all the variables in the game, that its usually 1 in 3. You could easily take all 3 chances, or none.

But I would write off half the "CCC" i create as not being CCCs. Its a small issue but one with big ramifications if people are using it as a guide to how well their play is going.

If you create 10 CCC, you would hope (all things being equal) to put away 3-4 of them. But the problem is 4-5 of this may not actually be CCC's ( this is averaging for the sake of the argument, of course they could all be actual CCC's or they could be badly interpreted ones). Now if you put away one or none from 10, you're going to be livid as a manager. Especially if you feel its happening toooften ( and the AI hits a 25 yarder).

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[quote name='Apos']Lack of feedback is the cause of both sides. And until we actually get that feedback,neither side is correct. Sorry to burst your bubble of being the good and saint forum member. It's not the same 10-15 posters either, I'm the only poster pretty much that has a continuous grudge with the game,pretty much because nothing changes no matter what I try. And that includes advices from anyone here. But I guess people are too cocky of themselves,aren't they? How could my game not improve with their advices,right?

If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.

The game is about "here's a random outcome,either you like it or not". The information around that is minimal and also hard to approach as well. (analysis panel,etc) And even if someone checks the analysis panel,the information is still not enough to make a good decision on what to fix, chances are the player might end up making things worse as well.[/QUOTE]

Point proven twice with your post. No one in here is being cocky, especially not anyone who has tried to help, and your not the only poster who does what i described, not at all, but until you accept you are doing something wrong, no one will ever be able to help you.

I frequent other forums, one a music forum with a fantastic FM thread going, these guys can accept when they are wrong and are open to advice, even if the game is letting them down slightly, they dont rant on and on about every minor detail, and guess what, they love the game. One of FM's biggest problems is the mis-information that comes out from the GD forum.

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[quote name='bullybeef']Can someone pls explain how the goal conversion rate works? If the CCC conversion is 1 in 3 (and I understand now that some CCC are exaggerated on the game), could this explain why some CCC are missed, to keep within this rule?


If I recall correctly, I score more half chances than CCC.


I just wanted to question about the AI tactics, each individual AI manager has a specific tactical preference on their profile, yet they are adept at numerous tactics. Could this also be a questionable advantage?[/QUOTE]

There isnt really a rule as such because until recently no body kept a record of CCC's because they are too subjective and can depend on the player as much as the chance. If your scoring around half your doing well but i wouldnt read too much into them, you can win without creating any or lose creating 50.

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[quote name='Apos']
If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.[/QUOTE]

No, you'll never know because you refuse to accept it. I don't suffer from the problems you seem to. And I've played FM 2012 as Enköpings SK, Hannover 96, Chelsea, Notts County and now Truro City over three different save games adding up to around 20 seasons so I doubt it's anything to do with the teams I choose.

There's plenty wrong with the ME in its current state. But there's no such area in the game where the AI gets an advantage over a clued up human manager. If you want to stop getting beat by teams on long losing runs and be more efficient yourself then give people details about your tactics, upload pkms and there will be plenty of people willing to help you. If you stop your ranting and insulting people of course.

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In this version i have played as Aberdeen, a poor team in a poor league, so i dont listen to any of this nonsense that the people who are not struggling are playing with the worlds best teams and players and i dont experience the problems being described in this thread.

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My last match being a case in point. Form of my opponent:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/zaWWG.jpg[/IMG]

Match stats:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Lmip8.jpg[/IMG]

By no means an efficient shooting night for my team really. But the opponent shot 6 times so by that 'every shot goes in' theory must have scored 6 right? Or at least once? Well no. The result:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/rNPk9.jpg[/IMG]

Couldn't have been more comfortable. And that's the norm, not an exception. Could have gone for more if I felt like it but I like to keep things tight throughout and not take unnecessary risks.

Now either I'm playing a different game to those that lose every game against an opponent on poor form - or it's something they're doing that's causing this to happen.

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Exactly! Anyway moral is only a part of the overall picture!! Always has and always will be.

Last night i was playing the end of a season, lost my last 5 league games and lost the league on the last day of the season to Celtic, moral was all on very poor or below, had the champs league final to look forward to as well, so i changed my approach for the game to suit how my team was playing and feeling, tightened things up a bit and changed a few bits and pieces to make the team solid first and foremost and able to score second, encouraged the players a bit, got through the first half 0-0, moral went up a bit because we had played well, so gave them a bit of praise and a bit more attacking freedom and won the game 2-0 despite both strikers playing without confidence for the first 60 minutes, but because my team made 4 very very good chances and kept things tight at the back we won the game, was it luck or because of the changes i made? I know which one ill go with.

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[quote name='milnerpoint']Point proven twice with your post. No one in here is being cocky, especially not anyone who has tried to help, and your not the only poster who does what i described, not at all, but until you accept you are doing something wrong, no one will ever be able to help you.

I frequent other forums, one a music forum with a fantastic FM thread going, these guys can accept when they are wrong and are open to advice, even if the game is letting them down slightly, they dont rant on and on about every minor detail, and guess what, they love the game. One of FM's biggest problems is the mis-information that comes out from the GD forum.[/QUOTE]

Yes,indeed,you have proven twice that these forums are divived with blind fan boys and unsatisfied customers.

If you were better at reading you'd notice that I did not claim that I do everything correct.I have really often admit that I'm doing something wrong and I'm asking for advice. Guess what,[B]that advice doesn't help either.[/B] The same crap keeps happening,I don't care if it happens to you or not,it happens to me and that's what I care about. You know,enjoying the game,like for instance...before FM11 appeared.

But since you are so eager to defend your "perfect game" , then so be it. You keep supporting it,I won't. I already feel robbed for 2 years in a row and a game that is being developed according to the standards similar to yours is not a game I will support. Keep the crap defence,the mass of injuries and the players that are ready to collapse mentally as soon as a butterfly dies next to them to yourself,I'm full.

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[quote name='Apos']Yes,indeed,you have proven twice that these forums are divived with blind fan boys and unsatisfied customers.

[B]If you were better at reading[/B] you'd notice that I did not claim that I do everything correct.I have really often admit that I'm doing something wrong and I'm asking for advice. Guess what,[B]that advice doesn't help either.[/B] The same crap keeps happening,I don't care if it happens to you or not,it happens to me and that's what I care about. You know,enjoying the game,like for instance...before FM11 appeared.

[B]But since you are so eager to defend your "perfect game"[/B] , then so be it. You keep supporting it,I won't. I already feel robbed for 2 years in a row and a game that is being developed according to the standards similar to yours is not a game I will support. Keep the crap defence,the mass of injuries and the players that are ready to collapse mentally as soon as a butterfly dies next to them to yourself,I'm full.[/QUOTE]

Its ironic you say the two bits in bold and yet further up the page i said,

[QUOTE]The ME and game in general has its problems and weaknesses[/QUOTE]

But since you have said your done, then there is no point in anyone offering any more advice to you, i dont make any standards for SI in anyway, i buy, play and enjoy a game, nothing more.

Hopefully you find a game that ties more into what you enjoy and you can leave us to enjoy FM.

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[quote name='wwfan']For Pete's sake! How on earth is a 4-1-1-4 formation going to work? Stop looking for gamey solutions and you might begin to find the answer.[/QUOTE]
why use it? because works well againt Barcelona the best team in the game, need more reasons? so it works against big teams, might not work against small however why do players from big teams miss so many chances against smaller teams? why should we play defensive when most teams in RL play offensive against small teams and only a small percentage are able to score on CA while on FM12 all small teams are good at it? seems to me SI ain't watching football.
and as for 4-2-4 (two MCs) being too risky, well i don't see that problem when AI goes with it and their MCs are everywhere in the field...i guess they must all have 20 pace and 20 speed...
and from what i see in FM the logic is: score 2 goals before players go ****** and you get 1 goal inside your net from a super AI play or player stupid mistake

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OK, so a formation works against Barca. Conclusion: use it against Barca!

Where you are deciding that its a good formation for small teams that play deep, and counter you, I don't know. If it beats Barca, use it against Barca! Come up with something different for the smaller teams! A more patient approach, another player in midfield... You have to remember that just because players get up for a big game it doesn't mean they will feel the same way about facing Real Zaragoza! Once you realize you can score goals using a counterattacking mentality, standard mentality, AND Control mentality, not just attacking or overload it can make a BIG difference.

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[quote name='achilles-the-victorious']OK, so a formation works against Barca. Conclusion: use it against Barca!

Where you are deciding that its a good formation for small teams that play deep, and counter you, I don't know. If it beats Barca, use it against Barca! Come up with something different for the smaller teams! A more patient approach, another player in midfield... You have to remember that just because players get up for a big game it doesn't mean they will feel the same way about facing Real Zaragoza! Once you realize you can score goals using a counterattacking mentality, standard mentality, AND Control mentality, not just attacking or overload it can make a BIG difference.[/QUOTE]
and how many big teams do you see in RL not playing offensive football against small teams? how many small teams succeed winning in CA compared to those who don't? wanna know what happens when i use a defensive approach against small teams? strikers still go ****** on 1 vs 1 and AI still manages to score from a freekick or a corner because AI super freekick player can score from 1/4 of the field but willian,ronaldo,xabi alonso,douglas costas can't or because shako or hummels just won't mark their player because they aren't giving a **** about the match. you can go all defensive you want but if players aren't giving a **** about the match you won't win unless you get lucky.
and how many tactics do teams play through a season? i see AI constantly changing then through the season depending on the match but when i go watch my league RL i see teams using 1 or 2 tactics. if FM12 is a simulator then start going by the basics and not start with real numbers on an unreal engine.
btw funny thing i found in ME, AI can have 1 total shot and have 0 shots on target and 0 shot not on target. clear example on how number are made up on ME.
everytime i check a big team in RL they play 4-4-2 with 1 MC as defensive and 1 as support/attacking, 4-1-3-2 with 1 MC on defensive duty and 3 AM, 2 strikers and i don't see them having problems against small teams. maybe they have super players, or super coaches, or maybe they are repeating the game until they win, or maybe they're super psychologists that always find the perfect team talk

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[quote name='deathspawn666']why use it? because works well againt Barcelona the best team in the game, need more reasons? so it works against big teams, might not work against small however why do players from big teams miss so many chances against smaller teams? why should we play defensive when most teams in RL play offensive against small teams and only a small percentage are able to score on CA while on FM12 all small teams are good at it? seems to me SI ain't watching football.
and as for 4-2-4 (two MCs) being too risky, well i don't see that problem when AI goes with it and their MCs are everywhere in the field...i guess they must all have 20 pace and 20 speed...
and from what i see in FM the logic is: score 2 goals before players go ****** and you get 1 goal inside your net from a super AI play or player stupid mistake[/QUOTE]


The problem is no team in the world uses that formation in real life.

So it works in FM in specific circumstances but as wwfan has pointed out its a "gamey" solution - You are basically trying to exploit the ME which is why you are having problems in other matches. If you concentrated your efforts into building solid footballing tactics that we see in real life you would get less random results from the FM ME and be happier as a result.

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What team in the WORLD hasn't had trouble with small teams in the last year? Inter lost against Novara, Barcelona have dropped points many times, Man U lost against Blackburn (guess what, the keeper played a shocker). Thats real life from what I have seen. Yeah, the big teams win almost 70% of those games, but I think you are somehow forgetting those other 30%. Like I have said before, I play FM11, haven't tried FM12 because FM11 is great and I love it, and I have seen games NOT improve year over year, it happens, so when you find a good, well-balanced, FUN game, you stick with it, IMO.

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[quote name='achilles-the-victorious']What team in the WORLD hasn't had trouble with small teams in the last year? Inter lost against Novara, Barcelona have dropped points many times, Man U lost against Blackburn (guess what, the keeper played a shocker). Thats real life from what I have seen. Yeah, the big teams win almost 70% of those games, but I think you are somehow forgetting those other 30%. Like I have said before, I play FM11, haven't tried FM12 because FM11 is great and I love it, and I have seen games NOT improve year over year, it happens, so when you find a good, well-balanced, FUN game, you stick with it, IMO.[/QUOTE]
and where did i say big teams never loose against small ones?? i pretty much said what you did: big teams vs small teams usually big team wins. however in FM12 it's the opposite, you can easily get nailed by a small team playing in CA if you don't play defensive. however those teams lost those 30%, as you said, because they didn't go defensive. try not going defensive against small team in FM and watch that 30% go to 70%...

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[quote name='Cougar2010']The problem is no team in the world uses that formation in real life.

So it works in FM in specific circumstances but as wwfan has pointed out its a "gamey" solution - You are basically trying to exploit the ME which is why you are having problems in other matches. If you concentrated your efforts into building solid footballing tactics that we see in real life you would get less random results from the FM ME and be happier as a result.[/QUOTE]
so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL

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[quote name='deathspawn666']and where did i say big teams never loose against small ones?? i pretty much said what you did: big teams vs small teams usually big team wins. however in FM12 it's the opposite, you can easily get nailed by a small team playing in CA if you don't play defensive. however those teams lost those 30%, as you said, because they didn't go defensive. try not going defensive against small team in FM and watch that 30% go to 70%...[/QUOTE]

I dont go "defensive" against any small teams, don't use counter attacking either, that 30% loss rate is more like 5%. There has been a wealth of advice in this thread and others. It isn't the opposite in FM12 and its very much achievable.

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[quote name='deathspawn666']so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL[/QUOTE]

No, if you think logically and set up with a coherent strategy, and ready to change an approach if needed, you can consistently beat both small and big teams. Not random, but logical. But that doesnt mean you will never lose ever. Neither football or FM works like that

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Not to "keep within the rule" as such, but simply based on the all the variables in the game, that its usually 1 in 3. You could easily take all 3 chances, or none.

But I would write off half the "CCC" i create as not being CCCs. Its a small issue but one with big ramifications if people are using it as a guide to how well their play is going.

If you create 10 CCC, you would hope (all things being equal) to put away 3-4 of them. But the problem is 4-5 of this may not actually be CCC's ( this is averaging for the sake of the argument, of course they could all be actual CCC's or they could be badly interpreted ones). Now if you put away one or none from 10, you're going to be livid as a manager. Especially if you feel its happening toooften ( and the AI hits a 25 yarder).[/QUOTE]


Thanks for the explanation, themadsheep2001, it maybe a case that SI need to think about how "CCC" are registered. Even since FM11 I took a CCC as red and was naturally disappointed and confused why I kept missing so many.


I just had an interesting home game against mid table opposition. I have been winning lately, but not emphatically, so I decided to undo some manual individual player instructions back to default, and I had [U][B]eight[/B][/U] SOT and [U][B]eight[/B][/U] "CCC", and scored 3 goals! Before you explained the how to understand "CCC", I would have been left scratching my head why I couldn't score more, even after a reasonably decent home win.


It is difficult not to feel sympathy for the disillusioned, because I know how much time and effort I can put into trying to understand the game. Maybe we're just not meant to understand everything about it. I would be fascinated to have a long term FM gamer, whom knows the game inside and out, to sit down with me and show me exactly what they mean when they explain things.


I think for the time being, it just comes back to how much you can personally accept out of the game, especially when you lose, draw after dominating, or miss umpteen chances, and have no idea what you did wrong. Hopefully, SI can help the ignorant (like myself) to better understand future versions of the game with better improved tactical advice from coaching staff etc. Personally I thought the tactical advice from FM11 was more informed, albeit not entirely accurate. Pre-match advice on FM12 tends to come across incredibly vague now.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']I dont go "defensive" against any small teams, don't use counter attacking either, that 30% loss rate is more like 5%. There has been a wealth of advice in this thread and others. It isn't the opposite in FM12 and its very much achievable.[/QUOTE]
i still haven't seen any tactical advice to make Casillas win 1 vs 1 against small team players meanwhile Ronaldo, Benzema, Higuain and Neymar are missing them...

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[quote name='deathspawn666']so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL[/QUOTE]

How is that in any way random?

You would expect to do well against smaller teams and you would expect a tougher match against bigger teams in real life.

Its really very simple you can continue trying to beat the "coding", achieving frustrating results and whining on the forums about it or you can do some reading in the tactics forum, apply the knowledge you gain and achieve less random results.

Which would you prefer to do?

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[quote name='deathspawn666']i still haven't seen any tactical advice to make Casillas win 1 vs 1 against small team players meanwhile Ronaldo, Benzema, Higuain and Neymar are missing them...[/QUOTE]

Start by throwing out your 4-2-4/4-1-1-4 formation. wwfan has just been pointing out the flaws in it. Start by creating something that doesnt leave your defence badly exposed half time time.

re strikers, use the advice wwfan gave arsenalfan7:

[I]Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?[/I]

Beyond that there are plenty of much more detailed pieces of help in the tactical section. You'll soon find your strikers scoring and your keeper hard to beat on the few chances you have to deal with.

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[quote name='themadsheep2001']Start by throwing out your 4-2-4/4-1-1-4 formation. wwfan has just been pointing out the flaws in it. Start by creating something that doesnt leave your defence badly exposed half time time.

re strikers, use the advice wwfan gave arsenalfan7:

[I]Detail your thoughts on how you should be creating chances.

Who should the main goalscorers be?
How are you getting the ball to them?
Where is the support coming from?
How are you trying to open space?
Are you playing patiently or driving forward at tempo?[/I]

Beyond that there are plenty of much more detailed pieces of help in the tactical section. You'll soon find your strikers scoring and your keeper hard to beat on the few chances you have to deal with.[/QUOTE]
wwfan advised me on how not to conceed goals. my tactic makes me sometimes loose against small team because of CA but my attackers are still creating the same amount of goal chances but are wasting them, specially 1 vs 1. if i follow the posters advice then i would probably not be loosing but still would not score because strikers went on dumb mode and can't score 1 vs 1. so in best case i would be drawing and not loosing which still gives the feeling that i was not supposed to win the match... ppl can give all the advices they won't but no tactic will sort out the % that AI small teams scores on 1vs1 and the % our strikers score in 1vs1 against small teams. and in case some ppl start saying something about pressure on 1vs1, when i say 1vs1 i mean strikers in middle of penalty area against GK with no defenders near and with good morale...

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[quote name='deathspawn666']wwfan advised me on how not to conceed goals. my tactic makes me sometimes loose against small team because of CA but my attackers are still creating the same amount of goal chances but are wasting them, specially 1 vs 1. if i follow the posters advice then i would probably not be loosing but still would not score because strikers went on dumb mode and can't score 1 vs 1. so in best case i would be drawing and not loosing which still gives the feeling that i was not supposed to win the match... ppl can give all the advices they won't but no tactic will sort out the % that AI small teams scores on 1vs1 and the % our strikers score in 1vs1 against small teams. and in case some ppl start saying something about pressure on 1vs1, when i say 1vs1 i mean strikers in middle of penalty area against GK with no defenders near and with good morale...[/QUOTE]

It would. The game isnt biased, the ME isnt biased. You can be just as lethal, in fact more lethal, than the AI. My side has the best conversion rate of any team in the top 5 leagues and by some way. I dont get humped by small teams, they dont score with their only/first attack. I do score with my first attack.

I just showed a small piece about your strikers. There is far more than that floating around.

Anything the AI can do, we can do better. Until you accept the above you will always struggle.

The information and help is there. Use it or don't use it, at the end of the day we all have the same game, and the people giving advice are not having the problems you are having. Upto you to use that advice or keep struggling. Either way, I'm off for a drink.

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I think you've earned a big one! hahaha :)

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[quote name='bullybeef']Thanks for the reply, wwfan, it is appreciated. I can imagine it is frustrating for you guys when you try to advise and it seems we are set in our ways so much we don't take it.


As you may recall, I do play a deep, defensive 42121 system (2 def mids (1 Achman, 1DLPM,); 1 CM (APM); 2 AIF; 1 GP). Are you saying to stick with the pre-set default mental settings for my CA tactic, rather than manually set them? And as much as I have tried toggling CA to on, I don't seem to notice if it makes any difference other than I keep the ball better. Would you suggest beginning the game with CA ticked, and maybe un-toggle it once I am winning to maybe keep the ball better?

Cheers![/QUOTE]

I'd advise you use a TC mentality structure as I think your manual mentality tweaks are the main cause of your problems. As for CA, I'd also leave that on default.

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[quote name='Apos']If the AI suffers from match prep then how can they change so many tactics throughtout matches without any effect on their performance? Last time I checked there is a limit of 3 tactics on preparation,yet they can change from 4-4-2 to 4-5-1,then 4-2-4,and then whatever and get away with it with no performance penalty? And I'm talking about the same penalty the player has when doing something like that,aka absolutely ******** football from their players.[/quote]

They don't. I've rarely seen the current AI shift tactical shape more than once in a match. The commentary tells you it is happening a lot, but that is a bug in the commentary (perhaps overkill on letting the user manager know that the AI has changed shape). In previous FMs, I'd agree that the AI did change formations too often and too easily, but not any more.


[quote]If "it's my tactics", like the saying goes around these parts by what I call fan-boys, I'll never know thanks to no feedback.

If I'm right though and those who defend the game just happen to be lucky on the right times, once again we can't tell, thanks to close to no feedback.[/quote]

You are just being ridiculous here. If you constantly do well or badly, there's a reason for it. Likewise, if you suffer random results, there's a reason for that as well. I might even agree that the in-game feedback could be better if you could accept that you might be doing something wrong, even after trying to incorporate the advice you've been given.

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[quote name='deathspawn666']so let me get this straight, if i think like real life football i can win against small teams but have hard time against big teams/rivals, if i think in FM ME i can win big teams/rivals but have hard time against small teams? sounds like FM is getting random...
it's funny to see ppl saying: it's like in real life for 1 situation and then on another situation ppl say it's just a game with flaws and therefore can't be like RL[/QUOTE]

How would teams in real life adapt their play against stronger and weaker teams? How might you translate that into the FM tactical module?

If you haven't even started to think this through, then it is no surprise your results are relatively random.

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I'll just chip in here with a recent personal experience of mine. I am playing as Tenerife and I've brought the club from Segunda Division B1 to the top flight with back to back promotions. I've spent two full seasons now at the top flight, finishing 10th and then 3rd. 10 games into this season I am top of the table and looking set to qualify out of my CL group. I then come across an away fixture vs Granada. This has always been a very bad fixture, only the one draw from 3 tries and last time out I got stuffed 4-0 in the last game of last season. They are 16th in the table with pretty poor morale, not much different to when I had my last two defeats there.

So instead of playing my normal game and getting beat again I decided against the Standard/Control strategy with aggressive shouts and went with a Counter strategy with shouts that would normally be used with a counter attacking play. I knew that if I gave them room to work, it would go wide, get swung in and headed home. That's how they beat me last time so I had to address that.

I decided that I would try and keep things really tight and burst on the break. That's exactly what happened. I had 4 shots on target, 3 were scored and they barely looked like scoring themselves despite having more shots. I have played both Barca and Real this season and in both games I played very aggressively, lots of pressing and ball retention. I got 2 1-1 draws from those games and if my players took their chances better I may have scored winners in both but the high tempo didn't help create clear quality chances. The slower play vs Granada did and I got a lingering monkey off my back.

So to cut a long-ish story short, what works against a Manchester United or a Barcelona or a Bayern Munich might not work against a Novara, a Getafe or a Wolves. No 2 games are the same and you have to adapt, exploit opposition weaknesses and shut down their strengths. The AI is still fairly limited as has been mentioned. So use your brain, think like a manager, and you should see your conversion rates improve.

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[quote name='deathspawn666']CCC is the worst stat you can use to analyse a match because the CCC in FM12 is just absurd and many IRL CCC aren't counted as CCC ingame. You should use check shots on target + morale/motivation.[/QUOTE]

Honestly then, what is the point of it being in the game? Surely the game knows what a CCC chance is, within it's own engine. None of this "in real life it's not a CCC" tripe. If the game counts it as a CCC, then that is what it is. Which leads to the absurdity when you create 3 a game and continually miss, yet the CPU gets 2 and scores.

[quote name='marty78']I think the biggest problem is people expecting to win just because they are the better team or on better form.[/QUOTE]

No, the problem is people seeing their team create chance after chance, only for the striker to inexplicably miss time after time.

It's totally understandable why people get so frustrated. Have a quick look at 1 month of league fixtures.

[URL]http://i44.tinypic.com/732wkk.jpg[/URL]

[URL]http://oi39.tinypic.com/2lvn4eq.jpg[/URL]

[URL]http://oi39.tinypic.com/e8o5ts.jpg[/URL]

Sitter after sitter goes begging. What on earth are you supposed to do?

According to the game:

Link 1 - 2 CCC, 7 Half chances (Hartlepool had 0 CCC and 3 half chances; 2 went in.)

Link 2 - 3 CCC, 7 Half chances (Rotherham had 2 CCC and 2 half chances)

Link 3 - 3 CCC, 3 Half chances (Rochdale had 5 CCC and 2 half chances)

My players get into poisition...BAM! Row z. Their striker gets into (arguably worse) positions, 0-1.

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The interpretation of CCCs in FM is hugely liberal. Basically, a chance is a CCC if the player is in a position from which, should he do everything right, he will score. However, doing everything right still means he often has to:

Dribble at pace with defenders breathing down his neck
Get the ball on his stronger foot
Miss the keeper
Hit the target
Stay composed

We've long argued for a more precise interpretation involving distance from goal, space around the player, angle of shot, touches taken, angle of the supply pass etc. With the current interpretation, the user requires a very subjective eye to determine between genuinely good chances and those that the player will do well to convert. Long term, I'd expect the interpretation to get better and more useful, but until it does, it is a very flawed stat.

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[quote name='wwfan']How would teams in real life adapt their play against stronger and weaker teams? How might you translate that into the FM tactical module?

If you haven't even started to think this through, then it is no surprise your results are relatively random.[/QUOTE]
how teams do it in real life? with a player personal instruction which is something you can't do in FM and those instructions are also based on players characteristics. in FM you can't save instruction for 1 player, you give instructions for position. In real life players also have free will to choose in those critical moments, in FM if you give an instruction to a position the player will always do the same thing if the situation repeats itself... how can i do it in FM? in real life players learn with their mistakes, in FM they do the same **** up over and over, wanna example? Ramos has easy tackling and keeps getting yeallow cards in totally non dangerous situations and i keep taking him 1 week salary and every month he still does the same thing...maybe i should just stop using a world class player right??
and i'm still waiting for a mod to show tactics,instructions, whatever it is, to make my strikers not miss ridiculous 1vs1 and also make Casillas actually save 1vs1 because after 3 seasons he still hasn't done 1

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[quote name='deathspawn666']how teams do it in real life? with a player personal instruction which is something you can't do in FM and those instructions are also based on players characteristics. in FM you can't save instruction for 1 player, you give instructions for position. In real life players also have free will to choose in those critical moments, in FM if you give an instruction to a position the player will always do the same thing if the situation repeats itself... how can i do it in FM? no freaking clue, there is no way i can save instructions for 25 players...and game only allows 3 tactics for match preparation...[/QUOTE]

1: You can give every player a set of individual instructions without affecting match prep at all. Match prep only influences team instructions. If you want one AMR option to play as a defensive forward supporting the attack, whereas the other option as a traditional attacking winger, you can do so with no hit at all.

2: Each player has personal characteristics (PPMs) plus ability levels (attributes). By analysing what they are and setting relevant Roles/Duties/Sliders, you can get very different behaviours from very different players.

3: Creative Freedom allows players to exercise more or less free will. As does the flair attribute, which will naturally override instructions to any player if it is high.

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[quote name='deathspawn666'] in FM they do the same **** up over and over, wanna example? Ramos has easy tackling and keeps getting yeallow cards in totally non dangerous situations and i keep taking him 1 week salary and every month he still does the same thing...maybe i should just stop using a world class player right??
and i'm still waiting for a mod to show tactics,instructions, whatever it is, to make my strikers not miss ridiculous 1vs1 and also make Casillas actually save 1vs1 because after 3 seasons he still hasn't done 1[/QUOTE]

We have to rely on your read of the game for us to accept the situation isn't dangerous. There might also be a number of player attributes that make Ramos likely to go in a little harder than you'd wish. Either way, fining a player for getting a yellow card is terrible man-management. If you are doing that, I'm not surprised he pays no attention to your tactical instructions. He'd have zero respect for you.

As for the missed chances/converted chances, if you are approaching them in a similar manner to dealing with Ramos then you deserve what you are getting.

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[quote name='wwfan']1: You can give every player a set of individual instructions without affecting match prep at all. Match prep only influences team instructions. If you want one AMR option to play as a defensive forward supporting the attack, whereas the other option as a traditional attacking winger, you can do so with no hit at all.

2: Each player has personal characteristics (PPMs) plus ability levels (attributes). By analysing what they are and setting relevant Roles/Duties/Sliders, you can get very different behaviours from very different players.

3: Creative Freedom allows players to exercise more or less free will. As does the flair attribute, which will naturally override instructions to any player if it is high.[/QUOTE]

1: you already said it up there that AMR/L won't go back to defensive support even though they are instructed for it...also tactic knowledge of team will go down, not very realistic and no 3 tactics training ain't enough.

2: i can't say a player "hey you got a yellow card be careful" or "hey stop getting those stupid yellow cards when there is no need to even tackle the player"". i also don't see anything in Ramos stats or PPMs that would make him take his stupid decisions, his "agression" stat is now 15, have players with more and they don't see yellow cards for stupid reasons

3: and where can we see flair attribute? right we can't...creative freedom on defense? that would be interesting but then if i conceed the answer would be "it's your tactics"

and why is there no answer for strikers missing so many 1vs1 against small teams? all i see is ppl saying go defensive, hell i even tried 4-2-1-2-1 (2DMS and 1 MC) with control mentality and guess what still conceed in a freaking CA because apparently 2 DCs can't mark 1 lonely striker that is between them 2 and 1 meter away from them. also why is every AI crossing in CA so perfect that always goes near the AI striker? i'm yet to see 1 crossing from CA go out,meanwhile dimaria,ozil,douglas costa,william,gaitan keep doing it...i'm starting to abandon wingers tactics, they all made stupid crossing that either go out or straight into keeper

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[quote name='deathspawn666']1: you already said it up there that AMR/L won't go back to defensive support even though they are instructed for it...also tactic knowledge of team will go down, not very realistic and no 3 tactics training ain't enough.

2: i can't say a player "hey you got a yellow card be careful" or "hey stop getting those stupid yellow cards when there is no need to even tackle the player"". i also don't see anything in Ramos stats or PPMs that would make him take his stupid decisions, his "agression" stat is now 15, have players with more and they don't see yellow cards for stupid reasons

3: and where can we see flair attribute? right we can't...creative freedom on defense? that would be interesting but then if i conceed the answer would be "it's your tactics"[/QUOTE]

1: I just told you that the tactic knowledge of the team DOES NOT GO DOWN when you change individual player instructions. It makes no difference to tactical knowledge if you play an AMR as Defensive Forward/Support one week, then as Winger/Attack the next. You also need to take on board that match prep hits are really minimal. It is far better to increase you passing length to deal with a very wet pitch and take the minor hit than it would be not making the change.

2: 15 is high aggression. A defender with that level of aggression will pick up yellows, no matter what.

3: Flair is a player attribute. It is under mental attributes. Some level of CF is useful, even vital, for defenders. Doesn't have to be high, but shouldn't be set to the absolute minimum.

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Just as a bit of back up on the yellow card issue. Sergio Ramos in my Tenerife save has amassed an incredible 11 yellow cards in 10 games with 1 red this season. I also note he has only 11 for decisions, so he's not the most intelligent player either and will make silly decisions, and in his position, he'll make a lot of poor tackle choices

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If I have 20 shots, and they're all crap, yet the opponent has one good shot and scores, I have no complaints.

My complaints come when I have 5 CCC and the opponent has 1 or even 0 yet wins 2-0.

I really can't recall a game in which the AI had more CCC's than me, but I won the game/got a point, even when managing lesser sides.

I remember last year (or two years ago), someone from SI acknowledging that because it is easier to for the User to generate more CCC's, the ratio of CCC's to shots had been toned down. I don't know if this is still the case, but it would not surprise me.

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