Why is the AI so much better at finishing?

[bullybeef]

Can someone pls tell me the game CCC conversion rate, cheers?

[Smurf]

You should really post in the tactics section to get help with your system.

You're leaking goals, and not taking chances. Something is off. It might be something simple. Are you playing a high defensive line?

I play with a very high defensive line. Which pushes the defenders near the half way line. This means the AI has to pay through balls or long balls over the top. It also means I really need some FAST defenders, who are naturally fit. I switched my goalkeeper to be Sweeper Keeper, which has really helps.

With the sweeper keeper he does two things - the normal goalkeeping and a sweeper role. He'll pick up balls on the edge of the area and quickly initiate a counter-attack move. Having him as Defend will mean he'll do the counter-attack if it's definitely on. Support - he'll wander out of the box looking for that counter move (could get caught out though), and with Attack he'll come way out of the goal with the ball at his feet.

It could be as simple as dropping your defensive line back or pushing them up and re-roleing your goalkeepers/defenders/mid/st

This is interesting.

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2012-players/83246-player-roles-duties-explained-fm12-updated.html

[THOG]

I think what is being misinterpreted is, in my case, not only is my usually sound defence is being exploited (using the same defensive structure as I used previously), but my usually prolific forwards are missing sitters. A perfect storm of events are making my system look fallible.

Well, you're not going to win every game because mental states matter too. You may not want to believe the "pressure" explanation, but when a balanced tactic backed by a strong team does lose, I find that's typically the reason. In my last season, I conceded 6 goals until the last 5 games when my team collapsed into a losing streak and gave up the title on the last day. My tactic didn't stop being a balanced tactic suitable for my players in their normal state; my players just lost their nerve (much like what we're seeing with Man City IRL) and made a lot of stupid decisions with the options that I gave them (culminating with the blown penalty that cost us the title).

The way to address these problems are to get players with better personalities and better handle media (which I'm still learning to do after the major changes to the morale system in 12.1).

As for your previous statement regarding pressure:

"So when a player is getting ready to score, what is going through his head? When I played football, and I was in front of goal, I always knew or thought I was going to score, and if I did fluffed it, not once did I think, "god I was under pressure then." Does a player on FM have time to realise how big the game is before he shoots? Clearly he does. And in this case we are only at fault for not knowing he couldn't handle the pressure and playing him in the first place.

No, but in real life (and what's modeled in FM), "this is a big game" will be going through a player's head constantly in the build-up to the match and that will influence his mental and physiological state in the match. He may not process "this is a big game" as he runs towards goal (and it doesn't in FM), but if he was edgy and excitable walking out onto the pitch, it's going to compromise his reflexes for a variety of physical and psychological reasons.

As for small players in cup matches, I disagree that they are under as much or more pressure. What FM assumes (rightly, IMO) is that no one expects the Stevenage players to do well against Tottenham. Their baseline expectation is to get destroyed, and while they might not look forward to it (and there is the potential in FM for smaller club players to be "overawed"), they're not worried that a poor result against a Top 4 club in the FA Cup will see them transfer listed and mercilessly criticized in the national press.

[bullybeef]

As I have mentioned, I play a deep CA with usually high att mentalities for my DLPM/APM and forwards, which I have discussed on the T&TT page:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/302415-Want-to-play-defensive-football

https://rapidshare.com/files/2484957508/433count.tac

I understand now that a lower mentality to my forwards may improve goals to shots, but I seem to create fewer chances than I'm normally did, and I rarely created many anyway. But it doesn't explain why teams seem to score against me even though I am restricting their chances, and closing down space in front of my pen area. The frustration lies in seeing your team persistently miss, whilst you're opponents are banging them in from anywhere.

And I also understand that there could also be a million other reasons, but if players took their CCC, I sure there would be less griping, and in the same sense, if your opponents outplayed you and beat you based upon finishing their CCC, they'd be little room for complaint. I guess this would add to the realism and more importantly, it would create fairness, understanding, and the acceptance of loosing.

Anyways, I've just managed another clean sheet away, and nicked a couple of goals in my usual fashion. Fingers crossed.

[themadsheep2001]

As I have mentioned, I play a deep CA with usually high att mentalities for my DLPM/APM and forwards, which I have discussed on the T&TT page:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/302415-Want-to-play-defensive-football

https://rapidshare.com/files/2484957508/433count.tac

I understand now that a lower mentality to my forwards may improve goals to shots, but I seem to create fewer chances than I'm normally did, and I rarely created many anyway. But it doesn't explain why teams seem to score against me even though I am restricting their chances, and closing down space in front of my pen area. The frustration lies in seeing your team persistently miss, whilst you're opponents are banging them in from anywhere.

And I also understand that there could also be a million other reasons, but if players took their CCC, I sure there would be less griping, and in the same sense, if your opponents outplayed you and beat you based upon finishing their CCC, they'd be little room for complaint. I guess this would add to the realism and more importantly, it would create fairness, understanding, and the acceptance of loosing.

Anyways, I've just managed another clean sheet away, and nicked a couple of goals in my usual fashion. Fingers crossed.

Couple of things on CCC, the definition in game is so liberal as to render it it useless. And the conversion rate for CCC is somewhere between 25% and 35% IRL, so i assume that is how it will be modelled in game, best off asking wwfan though.

[Koki]

To lighten up this heated discussion. Sometimes the problem sits in front of the screen. I wondered why they managed to score from their first shot. If you see it... I won anyway^^

[themadsheep2001]

To lighten up this heated discussion. Sometimes the problem sits in front of the screen. I wondered why they managed to score from their first shot. If you see it... I won anyway^^

Haha, you shut them down well. What stands out for me is the total lack of long shots. Did they choose not to take any, or was that a result of you denying them space?

[milnerpoint]

Hahaha ive done that before!

Thats a weird formation as well, kinda looks like a 5-0-5 to my eyes

[Koki]

They were favourites to win, I'm not sure why they weren't able to score more. Probably because I use to close down high off the pitch and the AI does not realise that there is a defender in goal. But who can blame the AI, if even the own manager only realises it after already having subbed 3 players

Yeah, the formation is weird but it actually suits my player material and the results are pretty decent for a team considered for relegation. I even topped this achievement in FM11 when I had a keeper and a striker of the same name and I switched them by mistake and my keeper scored the winning goal^^

[Äktsjon Männ]

Yeah, starting an outfield player in goal accidentally is something I've done as well. Wish the game would warn you if this happens, I'm pretty sure no-one does it on purpose anyway!

[Smurf]

You should only be able to put a Goalkeeper in the Goalkeeper position. It shouldn't allow you to put an outfield player there.

In the case where you don't have a Keeper in the squad (why???) then one of those temporary player goalkeepers should show up.

[milnerpoint]

What if you have no sub keeper and yours gets sent off or goes off injured?

[x42bn6]

I agree that people shouldn't need to read a small book to play the game, but to be fair those threads are referred to when there appears to be a lack of tactical insight, either in spotting what's going wrong or taking the right approach to fixing it, which they help provide. The game can't teach the user football tactics. Expecting it to is unreasonable. Not requiring any wouldn't make it much of an FM game. As long as you can fail there will be frustration but with no room to fail there's no challenge. I really wish tools like the assistant feedback widget were better; I think that's the sort of thing that could potentially bridge the gap here between users with different expectations/preexisting knowledge.

I don't actually see why it shouldn't to a certain degree, in the same way that people learn things from Football Manager (i.e. the next overhyped wonderkids, the wonders of Italian co-ownership, and so on). Or even staff advice, that suggests things like certain PPMs for certain players that have certain characteristics.

Something basic like your assistant stating: "We are trying to press high against a team that is parking the bus, resulting in no space whatsoever. Consider dropping back a little to create more space." might be a good idea, for example.

Yet people will spend hours moaning and posting threads about the same subject rather than taking 5 minutes to learn. It would take people a lot quicker to read a thread than post in the same one moaning all day long.

Occam's Razor suggests if they are reading it and coming back with more questions, they don't understand. Not that they like to complain a lot.

And if they don't understand... Well, that's the result of putting the game's documentation in the hands of fans. It shouldn't happen.

Then they are playing the wrong game. Learning how to play Civ is a chore unless your really into the game, has that also failed its customer base?

Civilization can be played by newcomers to the series with an easier difficulty level. It also has a lot of tutorials and an entire Civilization encyclopedia built-in. Civilization IV even does things like suggest tasks for workers.

It certainly has a steep learning curve... But that's the nature of the game. FM is not as deep. If Cleon claims it takes 5 minutes to read a thread and fix your issues, then clearly, that's not a deep issue, but an issue of basic understanding. It would take you hours to read about Civilization IV, and you would never even scratch the surface when it comes to grand strategy. FM is really easy compared with that. It has a bunch of sliders - that's really all it is.

[Overmars]

Not going to go into detail but we all know this is the case, we see it all the time, the AI with barely any shots and scoring whereas we take 20 and don't score.

Here's just one very recent example, I had been 16 or 17 unbeaten before this game, scoring for fun and players feeling confident and brilliant. However for some reason the 7th place Sevilla side with players morale ranging from very poor to just one very good in the starting line up pull through and get that one goal? Why are my players so poor in front of the net? Home advantage, better finishers and everything.

I bolded/underlined the part that stood out to me. I think losing unexpectedly is far more realistic than completing an unbeaten season. Even the best team will eventually lose, and not because they were outplayed, but because games are 90 minutes and don't always prove which team is "better". I hate it when it happens because it seems so unfair, but it's the nature of the sport.

[bullybeef]

Like I said, a simple fix is if CCC went in for both AI and human teams, there'd be no complaints, and you'd accept it more. The difficulty should be creating such a chance, especially against stubborn teams, and scoring the chance should be a rewarded, not punished.

I really feel sometimes that I am being punished for creating great moves and chances.

[milnerpoint]

Civilization can be played by newcomers to the series with an easier difficulty level. It also has a lot of tutorials and an entire Civilization encyclopedia built-in. Civilization IV even does things like suggest tasks for workers.

It certainly has a steep learning curve... But that's the nature of the game. FM is not as deep. If Cleon claims it takes 5 minutes to read a thread and fix your issues, then clearly, that's not a deep issue, but an issue of basic understanding. It would take you hours to read about Civilization IV, and you would never even scratch the surface when it comes to grand strategy. FM is really easy compared with that. It has a bunch of sliders - that's really all it is.

It still requires hours and hours of playing, restarting, playing again until you begin to learn how to play the game, i gave up after about 30 hours as i still didnt feel i was getting anywhere. But thats part of the game, its not designed to be a pick up and master kinda game, FM is the same but in a different genre, its not suppose to be an easy pick up and play game, you have to think more about it.

FM's problem is a lot of people like, watch and enjoy football, but have very little knowledge of tactics or anything other than terrace talk that goes about. SI cannot be helped for that, they make a game based on football management, your expected to have at least basic knowledge when it comes to tactics and other things if your going to tackle this game. The ME is certainly a lot more than just a "bunch of sliders" as you put it, anyway your talking about controls not mechanics. Civ is just a bunch of menu's if you want to look at it that way.

[marty78]

Like I said, a simple fix is if CCC went in for both AI and human teams, there'd be no complaints, and you'd accept it more. The difficulty should be creating such a chance, especially against stubborn teams, and scoring the chance should be a rewarded, not punished.

I really feel sometimes that I am being punished for creating great moves and chances.

Not every easy chance is scored from and not every difficult chance is missed. The better team doesn't always win either and if they did football wouldn't be worth watching.

[x42bn6]

It still requires hours and hours of playing, restarting, playing again until you begin to learn how to play the game, i gave up after about 30 hours as i still didnt feel i was getting anywhere. But thats part of the game, its not designed to be a pick up and master kinda game, FM is the same but in a different genre, its not suppose to be an easy pick up and play game, you have to think more about it.

FM's problem is a lot of people like, watch and enjoy football, but have very little knowledge of tactics or anything other than terrace talk that goes about. SI cannot be helped for that, they make a game based on football management, your expected to have at least basic knowledge when it comes to tactics and other things if your going to tackle this game. The ME is certainly a lot more than just a "bunch of sliders" as you put it, anyway your talking about controls not mechanics. Civ is just a bunch of menu's if you want to look at it that way.

I'd argue the game failed you too, at least initially. 30 hours to pick up the game? That's fairly obscene.

In terms of actual mechanics... Civilization IV is miles more complex. Culture, research, micromanaging tens of individual cities and hundreds of units, diplomacy... The number of variables that can be changed is huge. Not to mention that Civilization IV can feature more than two opponents on one single map.

My concern is that if, as Cleon says, it will take you 5 minutes to read a thread to understand a specific point, then that is not going to take you 30 hours to learn, and therefore since it is so short and simple, it is beneficial to place some form of notification in the game. It then becomes a skill whether you follow that idea (or not, or do something entirely different). Take the pressing high vs. bus parking scenario - the assistant might suggest dropping deeper. One user might drop the defensive line, one might play wider, one might tell everyone to start shooting like crazy and take advantage of the deflections through set-pieces, and another might change the formation altogether.

It is teaching the user tactics? To a certain degree, yes. However, most importantly, it has told the user why they "might" be getting it wrong, has left it an open question on what might be done, has given a suggestion on what might be a good idea, and as a result, increases the user's experience and allows them to explore the game further. It is not telling the user to drop the depth down to 8, and width up to 16, and by increasing one winger's mentality by 4 - which would essentially be teaching them how to play the game.

It is like backroom staff advice - the staff give their thoughts and it is up to you to either agree, disagree or even do something different.

But struggling for 30 hours is not everyone's idea of fun. Believe it or not, other people play the game differently to you, and not everyone plays the game at the same pace. Not everyone wants to slug through pages and pages of threads. Not everyone wants to spend 30 hours reloading games. I'd think that most users will want to pick up the game and play the game to a solid degree almost immediately, simply based on some basic hints in the game. Then, any external knowledge can be incorporated into the game and there will be a 1-1 correspondence between game and reality.

Look at the tactics creator. It essentially dumbed-down tactics into a simpler framework, while retaining the possibility for even further depth via the sliders should a user wish to explore. It had a wizard to aid newcomers to the series, as well as provide experienced users with a more flexible set of templates to base their initial tactics on. More guidance in-game is essentially that - more hints and advice, less misleading labels, with the option to ignore and go your own way.

[Scab]

I don't actually see why it shouldn't to a certain degree, in the same way that people learn things from Football Manager (i.e. the next overhyped wonderkids, the wonders of Italian co-ownership, and so on). Or even staff advice, that suggests things like certain PPMs for certain players that have certain characteristics.

Something basic like your assistant stating: "We are trying to press high against a team that is parking the bus, resulting in no space whatsoever. Consider dropping back a little to create more space." might be a good idea, for example.

Fair enough. You're bound to learn a decent amount just by playing, though I doubt the game will ever communicate broader concepts the way the guides do. We seem to be in agreement that better assistance from your backroom staff would be one way to alleviate this player frustration that seems to stem from not understanding what's going wrong, or how to adjust.

[bullybeef]

Not every easy chance is scored from and not every difficult chance is missed. The better team doesn't always win either and if they did football wouldn't be worth watching.

All I am saying is, I would prefer to be rewarded if I created a real scoring opportunity, rather than punished. And I am sure an opponent would say exactly the same thing.

If a better player has a CCC, what's the harm in him scoring? The art would then be to reduce you opponents CCCs. But it still doesn't mean a half chance, set piece, or corner can't go in. There should be no guarantee that preventing CCC would keep a scoreline down. A weaker side that 'parks the bus' could still triumph if they create other chances.

I can tell you this, if more CCCs are converted, by both AI and human, you'd hear less disillusionment. There wouldn't be any room for argument.

And if you watch football, especially the EPL, were there are many world class players, yet there are very few CCC, because many goals come from other opportunities, but I bet many CCC are converted, especially by the better players. Yeah, there are some missed CCC I grant you, but these are obviously televised more often because they are odd and humorous. You never see a player repeated shown scoring an easy chance because they are expected to.

Even the average players on FM can score CCC, and it is that imbalance that is being accused as poor tactical knowledge. I am sure Fernando Torres recent misses aren't because his manager(s) told him to attack more, or be a little more creative. He misses because he's suffered a bad injured, a much publicised divorce from LFC, and a huge transfer fee. His problem's are psychological, not tactical. The same could be said for Carol too.

What I have noticed is, GKs and defenders on FM have better attributes on average than strikers/forwards, maybe to keep scoreline down, but also playing under pressure seems to affect forwards more than defenders. But Strikers don't miss because his manager made a positive or attacking tactical error.

Fair enough. You're bound to learn a decent amount just by playing, though I doubt the game will ever communicate broader concepts the way the guides do. We seem to be in agreement that better assistance from your backroom staff would be one way to alleviate this player frustration that seems to stem from not understanding what's going wrong, or how to adjust.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Your opponent AI has all the information at their fingertips, based upon their tactical knowledge, whereas a novice, or even in my case, a long term player, whom is still learning, some much needed help and advice. Obviously, if your AssMan had a decent level of TK, he could even suggest a tactical approach to a game from the TC screen (he could literally show you how he would prepare his tactics), which may also please the casual gamer too, whom doesn't wish to go too deeply into the TT&T guide.

Obviously, there maybe no guarantee this would win every game, but it would a great aid to add to the TC.

[Äktsjon Männ]

Fair enough. You're bound to learn a decent amount just by playing, though I doubt the game will ever communicate broader concepts the way the guides do. We seem to be in agreement that better assistance from your backroom staff would be one way to alleviate this player frustration that seems to stem from not understanding what's going wrong, or how to adjust.

They need to start by making the staff competent in the first place. I ignore almost every bit of advice from my staff when it comes to tactics or squad management because I know that most of it is pure rubbish. Not only that but if you go by their advice they come back and give contradicting advice in the very next meeting. A newcomer to the game expects his backroom staff to know what they're saying so having a system that requires you to filter the tiny amount of useful information out of a large content of unhelpful nonsense will leave the player scratching his head.

[Scab]

They need to start by making the staff competent in the first place. I ignore almost every bit of advice from my staff when it comes to tactics or squad management because I know that most of it is pure rubbish. Not only that but if you go by their advice they come back and give contradicting advice in the very next meeting. A newcomer to the game expects his backroom staff to know what they're saying so having a system that requires you to filter the tiny amount of useful information out of a large content of unhelpful nonsense will leave the player scratching his head.

Yeah I agree, these features need more work before they're genuinely trustworthy.

On a slightly lighter note, my goals from my last game:

[video=youtube;jHyg8dDcIGg]

The AI is clearly not the only one who can score fortuitous long shots.

[bullybeef]

Oh this version is a bugger.... just when you think you're learning something....BANG!! Away at unbeaten Chelsea, again I wasn't expecting anything out of this game, and a I would have been happy to take a point.

Anyways, we were playing great, defending really well, keeping things really tight, not creating a lot ourselves, but pushing them back enough to give them something to think about. Then in the second half, a great through ball from my AM to my STR, one on one on his good foot, their GK rushes out, blocks the first shot, and what I can only describes as an animation blip (it looked like he tried a lying down overhead kick of some sorts), the ball deflects to safety.

Then the usual occurs, something which I see regularly in big games: I suffer two injuries, both FBs, one stretched off, the other subbed. With only one FB on the bench, my CM (Gerrard) was forcibly switched to RB. 83rd min, they immediately break down the right wing, and with their first shot on target, they score (my keeper didn't even move)! Having decided to watch this game in full view, this game was the perfect example of being led into a false sense of security. The game systematically change my players to gain an advantage, and if this wasn't scripted, I don't know what is.

So having played almost all my games in full view, and witnessing the change in fortune I am suffering in my second season, I'm afraid games are fixed. The fix may not come at the beginning of the game, but it definitely precipitates as it goes on. And this can act in our favour, but if it isn't your day, they game makes absolutely sure of it.

Needless to say, I gave the desk one hell of a crack (and I am paying for it now), and the game crashed.....shame!

I plead with anyone whom is yet to play FM12....DON'T DO IT!!!!

[THOG]

As I have mentioned, I play a deep CA with usually high att mentalities for my DLPM/APM and forwards, which I have discussed on the T&TT page:

Your tactic is very similar to the way Liverpool actually play under Dalglish, and as you may know, Liverpool under Dalglish have the worst chance conversion ratio and most number of shots hitting the woodwork of any team in the EPL.

The real life explanation for this is as follows:

1) Liverpool play very deep and relatively defensively. They commit, at most, about three players into the penalty box, however...

2) Liverpool has a very slow squad. Their fastest and most athletic player is a 32 year-old with failing knees (Bellamy), thus...

3) Liverpool can't mount rapid counterattacks. Instead, they slowly build up with passing play up the flanks with the intent of rapidly passing the ball into the box in the final third. The problem is...

4) The combination of lots of depth and short-passing build-up gives the opposition plenty of time to reposition themselves defensively which is particularly problematic since...

5) Smaller clubs generally park the bus against them anyway, meaning Liverpool also have produced the fewest chances from outright breakaways of any team in the league and...

6) Their main striker is not a natural goalscorer but a support striker who lacks the physicality, composure and temperament to calmly work through well-positioned, physically imposing defenses; additionally...

7) None of the Liverpool players are greater passers and the first touch of their attacking players range from a tad heavy for a top 4 striker (Suarez, Kuyt) to something comparable to the first touch of a rampaging cow (Carroll). They are good and many of their players are highly intelligent and creative, but they ultimately lack the technical quality to really play like Barcelona in the final third (as Dalglish wants to do). Thus, relying on fast, short passes in the final third...

8) A given attacker will often find himself receiving less-than-perfectly placed passes in the box at difficult, tightly covered angles with maybe about half a second to take a single (relatively heavy) touch and shoot before he's muscled off the ball by the two players dual-marking him.

With that said, the alternative approach (direct passing counterattacks) aren't viable because the team is slow, so Liverpool does present something of an interesting problem for managers inclined to work with the original team.

As far as how to deal with it... first, I would focus on getting the ball out of your half as quickly as possible. Setting your fullbacks to very direct passing will discourage the sort of tippy-tap passes between your defenders and holding midfielders that give the opposition time to track back... though you don't necessarily want them launching through balls, you just want to get the ball to your forward wingers as soon as possible.

Second, you want to get more players forward so your attackers aren't effectively double-marked... that means taking more defensive risks by increasing the mentality of either your fullbacks or defensive midfielders.

Third, you want to create space in the penalty box, so don't have everyone to just rush into the middle of the box and stand there waiting for support or you will just end up with terrible, desperate crosses and strikers running into cul-de-sacs. You will want to either pull the defenders forward or out wide and then rely on midfielders making late runs to move into the space that the movement of your more attacking players will create. Like Barca, you can't rely on a traditional centre forward to do all the goalscoring for you as they will be heavily marked by defenders (potentially multiple defenders) at all times. If you have your AML/AMR set to cut inside, change it to "Normal" and consider setting their forward runs to "Sometimes." They will still make inward runs at goal, but they will do it more prudently rather than just rushing at the goal in a clean angle at the first opportunity.

Finally, the AML/AMR positions are broken. They never track back. ML/MR with medium-high mentality will do all the same things as an AML/AMR while still providing decent defensive cover. By the sound of your latest post, you are probably conceding late goals from the AI switching to an ultra-attacking style in the last minute and then overloading your flanks. I have the same problem whenever I use a formation that relies on AML/AMR.

In terms of actual mechanics... Civilization IV is miles more complex. Culture, research, micromanaging tens of individual cities and hundreds of units, diplomacy... The number of variables that can be changed is huge. Not to mention that Civilization IV can feature more than two opponents on one single map.

In regards to Civ4, while there's certainly more stuff to click on, everything operates rather uniformly and units/buildings only have about two or so attributes that you really need to take into account. With FM12, every player is an individual with a unique personality who will react differently to any of numerous possible situations that can emerge over the course of a season and has a huge set of attributes that need to be carefully analyzed and balanced with the tactical system you put in place.

In Civ4, it's all about building a functioning system with uniformly predictable variables and reactions in steady, predictable steps. The AI, additionally, isn't made more intelligent or less predictable with higher difficulty levels, it just gets less special bonuses (i.e., cheats) to use against you.

I'm not saying FM12 is the most complex game out there. Games like Victoria II make FM look like Tetris by comparison, but I do think it's more complex than Civ4. With Civ4, you never really have to react to something unexpected at a moment's notice (unlike say, an injury or an upset player). It's all about long-term planning and maintaining a steady progression at a pace quicker than what the AI at the given difficulty level can manage.

[milnerpoint]

to something comparable to the first touch of a rampaging cow (Carroll).

The best part of any post GD has seen for a long time, i properly lol'd

As you were.

[THOG]

1 shot 1 goal http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/1.png

9 shots, 7 on target 3 clear chances http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/2.png

Low number of shots but all quality http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/3.png

Same as above http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/4.png

http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/5.png

I'm the AI in your game http://www.fmpundit.com/cleon/GD/6.png

As you can see we can easily do what the AI does.

It's quality what counts not how many.

And comparing these screens to bully's, you can see that a better way to get a sense of the quality of your chances is to look at your CCC ratio, not the actual number of CCCs. As others have said, many chances identified as CCCs aren't really clear cut, but if you're creating a lot of bad chances, you can be certain that you will also get a lot of chances identified as "half chances" and "other chances" as well.

In my experience, the team with the higher ratio of CCCs to half-chances and other chances will often end up the winner in addition to being "better at finishing." Why? Because that CCC ratio gives you a much better sense of how many genuinely quality chances you created.

[x42bn6]

In regards to Civ4, while there's certainly more stuff to click on, everything operates rather uniformly and units/buildings only have about two or so attributes that you really need to take into account. With FM12, every player is an individual with a unique personality who will react differently to any of numerous possible situations that can emerge over the course of a season and has a huge set of attributes that need to be carefully analyzed and balanced with the tactical system you put in place.

You don't have to take care of every single player during the match, though. It's mostly the team strategy that matters, just as Civilization is about long-term and grand strategy at the end of the day.

I'm not saying FM12 is the most complex game out there. Games like Victoria II make FM look like Tetris by comparison, but I do think it's more complex than Civ4. With Civ4, you never really have to react to something unexpected at a moment's notice (unlike say, an injury or an upset player). It's all about long-term planning and maintaining a steady progression at a pace quicker than what the AI at the given difficulty level can manage.

In terms of the number of things you can tweak with in the mid-game in Civilization IV - maybe 10 cities, each with their own culture, research, great people, 1-2 workers per city, and choosing what to do next - that's easily 10 degrees of freedom per city, which would clearly make Civilization IV more complex in that sense. The need to think against multiple opponents matters as well, unlike a match where there are only two sides, and each match is largely independent of another.

You have to react to the unexpected at times in Civilization IV as well, such as two allies declaring war on each other or a raging barbarian appearing in the early stages of the game. While it's true that Civilization IV is turn-based, you still largely have to react to it before the unit of time advances.

The AI is a different story but I don't think it really matters when it comes to the actual "complexity" (but it does when it comes to "difficulty") of the game. The mid-game in Civilization IV can require you to perform actions per turn in the region of 10s, while you may only change your tactics or shouts a few times per game. Which makes it more complex, surely.

[wwfan]

It depends on the application. If you are playing a rigid, counterattacking system where defenders clear the ball and your attackers are ordered to take whatever chances they get, you'll want big mentality gaps. Of course, rigid, counterattacking systems are typically limited to very, very small teams playing very, very big teams and their downfall as a tactic for mid-to-top table clubs is the story of modern English football... and the general counterattacking mechanism (which maxes out mentalities) is active for all tactics anyway.

There's always the risk of incoherence with big mentality gaps. If you have one, you risk all your attacks being counter-attacks through a breaking FC and reduce the possibility of any other chance type being created.

And the conversion rate for CCC is somewhere between 25% and 35% IRL, so i assume that is how it will be modelled in game, best off asking wwfan though.

The OPTA CCC stat is newer than FMs. However, 1 in 3 is about right.

[wwfan]

Your opponent AI has all the information at their fingertips, based upon their tactical knowledge, whereas a novice, or even in my case, a long term player, whom is still learning, some much needed help and advice. Obviously, if your AssMan had a decent level of TK, he could even suggest a tactical approach to a game from the TC screen (he could literally show you how he would prepare his tactics), which may also please the casual gamer too, whom doesn't wish to go too deeply into the TT&T guide.

I'll give you two pieces of simple advice that will really help.

1: Get rid of all your manually tweaked individual and team instructions.

2: Don't simply have Attacking Duties for forwards, Support Duties for midfielders and Defend Duties for defenders. Think about which players you want moving between the lines and give them the relevant duty. For defenders and midfielders, that would be Attack or Support Duties (which will encourage them to push into the strata ahead). For forwards, Support Duties encourage them to drop deeper (as does the TQ role).

[wwfan]

The AI is a different story but I don't think it really matters when it comes to the actual "complexity" (but it does when it comes to "difficulty") of the game. The mid-game in Civilization IV can require you to perform actions per turn in the region of 10s, while you may only change your tactics or shouts a few times per game. Which makes it more complex, surely.

I personally struggle with the concept of a game basically based on a board game being more complex than one that is trying to simulate real life human behaviours, but each to his own I suppose.

[av3ry]

You sure the AI is better at finishing???...

[scott MUFC]

are you REALLY sure?

i'm man utd

but really it does happen often, and that one shot on target is either a corner, from a kick off (happens FAR too much imo) or from that one time my defenders dont bother to tackle.

[VonBlade]

There are two obvious things here.

1) Generally most of us agree that in FM12 the 'woodwork' has a much greater impact that real life. Partially because it's so bias towards attacking play that we create more than realistic amounts of chances.

2) Everyone who disagrees believes it's 'our tactics'. Which is fine if someone will happily tell me where the "stop shooting from outside the box ALL the time" option is. Because it's not the 'long shots' slider, or the 'direct passing' slider, or the formation, or the 'work it into the box' shout.

Simply put if there was an option in the tactics to force my team to never take on the 25 yard option and always look for a man in the box, then the "it's your tactics" brigade would have some merit. As it is our tactics are vague hints and mere suggestions at best.

[scott MUFC]

i think the problem is much simpler, counter attacking football, these team shut up shop, i did it there against city and just used counter attacking, and won the game with minimal chances.

[Bebetu]

Sometimes Ai is too diabolic(it exploits much better the tactical part than most of normal/casual players) and can be same with the user if he knows exactly whats hes doing or if hes lucky.For example last game i as Norwich lost vs Everton with 2:3 while AI had 3 shots on targets,1 screamer from fellaini 1 header from corner and 1 penalty,so fair enough except with the screamer being in the same game with other 2/2 to give a final 3/3 ratio.http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2530/deletemeypl.png

So the real question ,is this realistic enough as it happends so offen doesnt matter wich side if ai or user (more the ai cause he exploits better).As fm2012 tends after whats real ,this diabolic ratio of shots/goals from 1 side while other side has execrables ratios of missing sitters from 6 meters must be somehow "normalized" to be realistic and not some parody IMO.

[Bebetu]

At distance of 2 games after everton episode where ai had 3 shots to convert all 3,it came my turn to be diabolical.This is funny im Norwich here punishing Arsenal for missing chances like clowns while i convert 1 header from a cross(only one cross succesful was converted : check 4 % )) on counter.Also my goalie Ruddy was on fire he got 9.3.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7031/me11v.png

Like i said in previous post this comic matches happend just to offen this is the issue here.This type of matches can be possible in real life but its impossible to happend so offen where a team is "voodoo cursed" to miss all kind of chances while the other one being blessed to convert 1-2 goals from arround same number of shots on target.

[bullybeef]

Your tactic is very similar to the way Liverpool actually play under Dalglish, and as you may know, Liverpool under Dalglish have the worst chance conversion ratio and most number of shots hitting the woodwork of any team in the EPL.

The real life explanation for this is as follows:

1) Liverpool play very deep and relatively defensively. They commit, at most, about three players into the penalty box, however...

2) Liverpool has a very slow squad. Their fastest and most athletic player is a 32 year-old with failing knees (Bellamy), thus...

3) Liverpool can't mount rapid counterattacks. Instead, they slowly build up with passing play up the flanks with the intent of rapidly passing the ball into the box in the final third. The problem is...

4) The combination of lots of depth and short-passing build-up gives the opposition plenty of time to reposition themselves defensively which is particularly problematic since...

5) Smaller clubs generally park the bus against them anyway, meaning Liverpool also have produced the fewest chances from outright breakaways of any team in the league and...

6) Their main striker is not a natural goalscorer but a support striker who lacks the physicality, composure and temperament to calmly work through well-positioned, physically imposing defenses; additionally...

7) None of the Liverpool players are greater passers and the first touch of their attacking players range from a tad heavy for a top 4 striker (Suarez, Kuyt) to something comparable to the first touch of a rampaging cow (Carroll). They are good and many of their players are highly intelligent and creative, but they ultimately lack the technical quality to really play like Barcelona in the final third (as Dalglish wants to do). Thus, relying on fast, short passes in the final third...

8) A given attacker will often find himself receiving less-than-perfectly placed passes in the box at difficult, tightly covered angles with maybe about half a second to take a single (relatively heavy) touch and shoot before he's muscled off the ball by the two players dual-marking him.

With that said, the alternative approach (direct passing counterattacks) aren't viable because the team is slow, so Liverpool does present something of an interesting problem for managers inclined to work with the original team.

As far as how to deal with it... first, I would focus on getting the ball out of your half as quickly as possible. Setting your fullbacks to very direct passing will discourage the sort of tippy-tap passes between your defenders and holding midfielders that give the opposition time to track back... though you don't necessarily want them launching through balls, you just want to get the ball to your forward wingers as soon as possible.

Second, you want to get more players forward so your attackers aren't effectively double-marked... that means taking more defensive risks by increasing the mentality of either your fullbacks or defensive midfielders.

Third, you want to create space in the penalty box, so don't have everyone to just rush into the middle of the box and stand there waiting for support or you will just end up with terrible, desperate crosses and strikers running into cul-de-sacs. You will want to either pull the defenders forward or out wide and then rely on midfielders making late runs to move into the space that the movement of your more attacking players will create. Like Barca, you can't rely on a traditional centre forward to do all the goalscoring for you as they will be heavily marked by defenders (potentially multiple defenders) at all times. If you have your AML/AMR set to cut inside, change it to "Normal" and consider setting their forward runs to "Sometimes." They will still make inward runs at goal, but they will do it more prudently rather than just rushing at the goal in a clean angle at the first opportunity.

Finally, the AML/AMR positions are broken. They never track back. ML/MR with medium-high mentality will do all the same things as an AML/AMR while still providing decent defensive cover. By the sound of your latest post, you are probably conceding late goals from the AI switching to an ultra-attacking style in the last minute and then overloading your flanks. I have the same problem whenever I use a formation that relies on AML/AMR.

In regards to Civ4, while there's certainly more stuff to click on, everything operates rather uniformly and units/buildings only have about two or so attributes that you really need to take into account. With FM12, every player is an individual with a unique personality who will react differently to any of numerous possible situations that can emerge over the course of a season and has a huge set of attributes that need to be carefully analyzed and balanced with the tactical system you put in place.

In Civ4, it's all about building a functioning system with uniformly predictable variables and reactions in steady, predictable steps. The AI, additionally, isn't made more intelligent or less predictable with higher difficulty levels, it just gets less special bonuses (i.e., cheats) to use against you.

I'm not saying FM12 is the most complex game out there. Games like Victoria II make FM look like Tetris by comparison, but I do think it's more complex than Civ4. With Civ4, you never really have to react to something unexpected at a moment's notice (unlike say, an injury or an upset player). It's all about long-term planning and maintaining a steady progression at a pace quicker than what the AI at the given difficulty level can manage.

I won the league and cup in my 1st season with this system, but used many of my own buys who had more pace - the only player that Dalglish bought which I used regularly was Bellamy. Adam, Downing, Carol, and Henderson rarely played.

I started noticing problems began towards the end of the season, after the 2nd hotfix (as I have mentioned elsewhere on here) and now into my new season, and although I am scraping wins, the chances teams were missing in my previous season, are now going in.

This is showing a stats error that my defence is now leaking goals (corners, freekicks, pens, long shots, or goals bouncing in off my defender's backside), and their moral is up and down like a yo-yo.

I am defending no differently than I did the season before, but because I am now conceding more soft goals, the need for me to finish better has increased, and I am probably noticing the misses more. Especially CC misses as opposed to players scoring from anywhere against me.

And it is this sudden differential which some may say 'I got anyway with' over a 50 or so game program in my previous season, is highlighting a bias between my players missing easy chances and my opponents scoring half chances or other chances, or getting one CCC, and finishing with ease.

I beat Stoke 6-0 away recently, and yet I have no idea why that happened, because I have since used the same playing settings, but I can't repeat the level of finishing I witnessed in that game.

[x42bn6]

I personally struggle with the concept of a game basically based on a board game being more complex than one that is trying to simulate real life human behaviours, but each to his own I suppose.

The number of possible games in Go is estimated to be more than the number of atoms in the universe...

[Ackter]

Please stop talking about things that have nothing to do with this thread. Stop derailing every thread you can with your pointless semantic babble.

Thanks.

[x42bn6]

Please stop talking about things that have nothing to do with this thread. Stop derailing every thread you can with your pointless semantic babble.

Thanks.

I didn't bring up Civilization to begin with.

And it is on-topic when talking about complexity levels, learning curves and how much time you need to invest in a game to immediately "get it" to a sensible degree. Civilization, I'm arguing, is more complex but this is expected, yet offers some more intuitive features that simplify the experience for newcomers, that FM could employ. Also, I'm arguing that while Civilization may take hours and hours to learn the basics, this should not apply to Football Manager, simply because it isn't as difficult in terms of a learning curve, and because Football Manager is difficult for the wrong reasons (i.e. you don't know why you are wrong when you create a billion chances but finish zero, while in Civilization, you know you did something wrong when a barbarian takes over your city and you are stuck).

[Ackter]

Everything that this thread isn't about.

Just like every other thread you bring stuff into, it isn't about what you attempt to make it about.

I've mentioned it enough times, any other warnings will come through the infraction system.

[PinkSpeedos]

I thought that finally i have built a team, formation and tactic to stop this from happening as much to me but alas its started again. Got MK Dons promoted to championship having not conceded a single goal for the last 5 games of the season. New season begins I play Millwall followed by Sheff Utd (who came up with me) between them they had 6 shots on target over the 2 games and they scored 4 goals between them.

I am sorry but this just isn't realistic, i dont care what anyone says, im tired of people saying it is your tactics it is this it is that. I have tried everything sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. Im not saying my tactics or any tactics should work 100% of the time of course not and i am completely expecting a hard season keeping Dons up but im sorry this is just ridiculous. The best strikers in the world do not score every shot they have on target so the likes of Andy Keogh for Milwall definately shouldnt either!

[THOG]

I thought that finally i have built a team, formation and tactic to stop this from happening as much to me but alas its started again. Got MK Dons promoted to championship having not conceded a single goal for the last 5 games of the season. New season begins I play Millwall followed by Sheff Utd (who came up with me) between them they had 6 shots on target over the 2 games and they scored 4 goals between them.

It is realistic. Liverpool recently played QPR followed by Wigan. They lost both games. QPR and Wigan together managed 7 shots on target. They scored 5 goals.

Next, Liverpool played Newcastle. Newcastle got 3 shots on target. They scored 2 goals.

It doesn't happen with every team in every match, but it does happen, often repeatedly to the same team.

[PinkSpeedos]

Liverpool are on an appauling run with low morale and are lost. It is one example.

Even when im winning games say 3-1/4-1 the 1 goal they score usually comes from the only shot my team allows them on target. Its not like they make a few chances and miss a few and then score one, right now the comp is getting a conversion rate of goals from shots on target of like 70/80%.

I'm not moaning cause im doing rubbish, I got MK Dons promoted from league 1 to champ in my first season and i have racked up a few points in Champ already. I just think the conversion rate is far higher than the human user gets

[THOG]

Liverpool are on an appauling run with low morale and are lost. It is one example.

They are now, but when they went into the Wigan game, they had won three straight victories, including a complete demolition of their local rivals.

And yes, it's one example from the past couple of weeks and there are many more examples of the exact same thing every season.

And if this was some uniform rubberband effect giving a special conversion bonus to the AI, everyone would experience it. However, not everyone does, and as several screenshots above demonstrate, many users are able to produce conversion rates superior to that of the AI.

[ArsenalFan7]

Counter attack is superior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure I had many long shots but those I did have a few good opportunities which ended up as nothing.

[ArsenalFan7]

[ArsenalFan7]

This one is rather amusing.

[ArsenalFan7]

This was a bit of an experiment tbh but Barca sure did come out lucky and they ended up going to that Champions League final!

[ArsenalFan7]

Me robbing the AI.