Why I bought a 33 year old Miroslav Klose...

[ZdlR]

Over the last few versions of FM, the things I look for in a player have changed beyond recognition. I've had a number of 'favourite attributes' over the years - work-rate, determination, stamina, anticipation...

Nowadays, however, I look at the whole package and consider the best instructions to give to the player in order to get them to perform to their best and also how they can fit into my team and what other option they can offer. Enter, Miroslav Klose:

In a sort of echo of SFraser's Meet The Striker thread, the screenshot shows the most important parts of Klose's in-game representation. What I am looking at specifically, is his ability to find space (Off The Ball 20), his selfless devotion to the team cause (Teamwork 20), his ability to read the game better than the vast majority of defenders he will come up against (19), his ability to spot a variety of passes (16) and his ability to execute some of those passes (technique 14, passing 15). His heading is a bit of a red herring because he lacks the aggression, bravery and jumping to effectively challenge in the air. However, it is nice to know that I have the option of using the crossing of some of the wingers that I have inherited.

Now, the stats that Klose has are brilliantly matched to his PPMs -

• Moves Into Channels: allows him to find space laterally between centrebacks and fullbacks. His Off The Ball is complemented here.
  
• Comes Deep To Get The Ball: allows him to drop off his defender and find holes inside between defence and midfield. This will be heavily influenced by his teamwork - I'd expect him to show for the ball and act as an outlet.
  
• Looks For Pass Rather Than Attempting To Score: another perfect complement to his teamwork. The first thing that I want him to do is to look for a pass. Ideally, this will be an incisive forward pass - probably even the last pass before a goal.
  

So, that explains a little about what I expect to see given the right instructions. And here are those instructions:

He has a low mentality so that he drops off and so that he is thoughtful in possession. I don't want him to be gung-ho, I want him to be measured. He has bags of creative freedom here. Not wholly for his passes, but because I want him to be unexpected and to be imaginative. His passing style is last notch of mixed. I do generally want forward passes from him, but I don't mind him recycling possession as he sees fit. Closing down is high because his workrate and aggression are low and I'm hoping he won't be entirely lazy when the opposition have possession. His individual instructions are fairly self-explanatory. I do not want him to make any surging runs from deep. This would move him away from the danger that he poses - in the hole. I want the first thing that he looks to do to be to make an incisive pass. The other options I leave up to his discretion so that he is not one-dimensional. Aside from that, I want him to move into channels and I want him to roam from position. Roaming is interesting - I expect to see him generally find space and be a passing outlet for the team.

So, that's what I hope to see. For completeness, before showing how this played out in a match, I will explain the team that he will be part of and the opposition he will face.

I'm on a good run in the league and this is the first FA Cup game of the season, at home to 9-points clear Championship leaders, Stoke. I want to rest a few key players in this game because I haven't got the deepest of squads - I'm not in any European competition (part of Hodgson's legacy). Klose's partner will be David N'Gog, the pauper's Fernando Torres... N'Gog excels only at his top speed. He is very much average - poor, even - in a lot of important attributes for a striker. However, rather than sell him, I decided I would get him a partner that he could play off. N'Gog can't really flourish as the spearhead in my default 4411, not like Torres. He can't create something from nothing and will probably never finish a half-chance in his life. He needs to be put clean through on goal or given a simple finish. Preferably both!

The rest of the team is set up to give these two centre stage - Lucas is a creative midfielder who can defend and Vidal is a defensive midfielder who can create, a lovely partnership. Joe Cole can be a bit of a livewire and Molina is technically strong, mentally average and physically poor. These wide men are decoys if nothing else.

[ZdlR]

To the goals:

[video=youtube;2WO6WUS1u6w]

Licht loses out to N'Gog in an aerial battle and Klose, having moved into some space, receives the knock down. Despite Stoke's formation (a 442 with two DMCs), Klose has somehow found acres of space in the centre. This is because Lucas and Vidal are not making any forward runs and are holding relatively deep positions. They are both being tightly marshaled by their opposite numbers, leaving Klose free to drop off the defence into space - exactly as I had hoped and planned. The decoy wingers keep Stoke's fullbacks pinned wide and Shawcross is forced to step out of defence to deal with the threat of Klose. However, Higginbotham is now exposed and, with N'Gog out wide and ready to make a run into the open channel. With good composure, Klose ignores Shawcross to slide an absolutely delightful pass into N'Gog's path. With no-one marking him, N'Gog manages to score a relatively simple goal.

[video=youtube;SsB0lZum04w]

Sometime after half time I decided I'd make a change which proved absolutely key in this next goal. I decided that Klose should be the nominated playmaker. Ordinarily, I shy away from this option, but I notice that Klose was being bypassed for a lot of passes and N'Gog was receiving the ball directly. This is useless because N'Gog is much less likely to score from skinning an opposition defender than he is when put through on goal. As a result, this uncharacteristically direct goal was spawned. Danny Wilson receives the ball from Reina, he takes a couple of touches before aiming a direct pass up to Klose, who has moved across to show for the ball. Insanely, the entire Stoke defence drop off Klose giving him even more space. When their right-back eventually does make an effort to tackle Klose, it is too late, N'Gog has already spotted the simple run into space. The pass, however, shows just how much mental stats are more important that technical. This isn't a player gifted with incredible technique or passing, it is just a player who is able to spot a killer pass earlier than any of the defenders and has the selfless goodwill to execute it. This goal is the precise reason I bought Klose.

[video=youtube;xSfoe6Qh4H8]

For the hatrick of assists, Klose sets up my decoy winger, Molina, to score a relative simple finish. By this point, Torres has come on for N'Gog who had lost his only weapon to injury. Torres has already fluffed a CCC laid to him on a plate by Klose, but it was his first touch so it can be forgiven. Torres starts a dribble from deep and cuts inside. Rather than make a direct run for goal, Klose hangs back and moves infield to offer Torres a passing option. Torres is instructed to pass only short. Again, the Stoke defence back off giving us acres of space, and my MCds occupy their DMCs. Klose passes to Molina but Gera tracks back to tackle. The ball spills loose and Klose's second pass is not to feet. Oh no. It's between centreback and fullback into prime territory for Moilna to attack. Molina's lack of pace and acceleration is rendered irrelevant considering he is facing the right way and Shawcross isn't.

This completed an absolutely beautiful full debut for Klose. He truly is a revelation and is already worth the pittance I paid for him.

[sweep17]

Nice post who needs bags of pace when you can use space intelligently.

I think you make a good point though mental attributes are key for the deep lying forward type roles. I used to just buy physically fast/strong forwards but recently i've begun to appreciating the mental attributes much more, particularly for more creative roles.

[Frank327]

Don't forget that Klose also has great first touch (14) and balance (16) which allows him to pass the ball half a second earlier than a lot of other other strikers would. In acres of space that doesn't really matter, but against better defenses it can be crucial.

Also, do you manage to let him score headed goals now and then too? He won't win many direct aerial battles, but he'll probably be smart enough to find enough space to head in unchallenged.

I'd play him like a deep lying striker - attack.

[millwallrules]

Brilliant Post, found it very interesting

[Cleon]

A very good post ZDLR

Don't forget that Klose also has great first touch (14) and balance (16) which allows him to pass the ball half a second earlier than a lot of other other strikers would

14 is hardly great, it's kind of low. And because he has 16 balance would not give him that extra split second. Sorry to nit pick but it seems like your either confused about what the attributes do and their values or you've not explained what you mean properly.

[ZdlR]

Similarly, I don't think I'm going to get him to win many headers in a crowded box. What I do have the option for, though, is to have Reina punt the ball long for Klose to win knock-downs. That is more likely to be a good use of his heading.

Decided to play much the same team in my next game at home to struggling Leicester. Whereas Stoke gave us a lot of space, Leicester are not. Coupled with N'Gog's niggling injury, I'm facing a bit of a struggle to score the first goal.

[jaycar]

very good thread, the instructions look very much like klose is playing as a trequartista would...hence the 3 assists. Ngog is set up more as a poacher I take it?

How are the Cm's set up? Are they both CMd?

[Tidd19]

Brilliant post, this blending of transfer market/tactics is something I'm hoping to work towards myself.

I'm curious, how effective is this partnership when playing against a five man midfield? I would imagine that the oppositions extra man in midfield would vastly reduce the space in which Klose works. Do you find that he struggles against such formations or do his immense attributes (Anticipation 19 & Off the Ball 20) allow him to find space in even the tightest of defensive triangles?

[footballmanager84]

Good work! Klose is no Messi, but this just shows how effective a player can be if you use him right.

I agree that he won't win too many headers in the box. Jumping and strength is a bit low. As you say, he might have an advantage winning knockdowns from the GK because he'll more than likely come up against a DM where he should win it in the air.

[ZdlR]

very good thread, the instructions look very much like klose is playing as a trequartista would...hence the 3 assists. Ngog is set up more as a poacher I take it?

How are the Cm's set up? Are they both CMd?

N'Gog was pretty much a poacher, yes. High mentality, lots of rwb and rfd.

Lucas was kind of a DLP and Vidal a simple MCd. Don't use the TC tho so it's likely there were subtle differences tailored to these players and what I wanted them to do.

[Jenko_EFC]

Funny enough, in a past save this year, I bought Klose.

Mainly because of his Mental attributes, I wanted a closer look at Teamwork (specifically) and Off The Ball and he obviously is awesome at both of them. Good post ZdlR.

[Pipson]

Very interesting post

[ZdlR]

Update

Klose didn't really hit the same heights again, but it was a 9.1 on his full debut, so hard to live up to. He has made 12 appearances in total and I have only four games left of the season - one is the FA Cup final and, in the league, a point is sufficient to secure me an unlikely title. However, he did score in a mental 3v3 draw against my closest title rivals Arsenal at home. It was a very simple tap-in. He has only twice completed a full 90 minutes but whenever he plays he makes N'Gog look much, much better. Klose has 1 goal, 6 assists, 2 motm awards, a 7.20 rating from 6 starts, 6 sub appearances. All-in-all, he has been a successful bargain signing.

The main benefit that he has given the team is a lower reliance on an ageing Steven Gerrard, who has played 31 games with 3 sub appearances, scored 12, made 14 assists and has an average rating of 7.38. Without Klose, I imagine he would be feeling jaded just when I need him to be on top form.

[Neil Train]

sorry, it's late at night and i just fancied reading the recent posts on the tactical forum to take a little break from the game. i'm amazed no-one has talked about Dario Conca on these forums. possibly the best option as an AMC/trequatista i've ever seen. Discuss.

[ZdlR]

Not sure about your game, alan, but on mine Dario Conca has 13 for anticipation. This is nowhere near enough for a top playmaker.

[Neil Train]

Not sure about your game, alan, but on mine Dario Conca has 13 for anticipation. This is nowhere near enough for a top playmaker.

interesting to read your comment. never really considered anticipation as a key attribute for a playmaker. i'm only going on what i see on the pitch but off the ball/creativity/technique always seems to me to be more important. Conca has scored and created soooo many that i'll let him off having 13 antic.

[ZdlR]

Well, it's all relative, isn't it. If you are playing him in the Champions League then I'd be quite surprised if he looks world class. But if you are playing him in the Portuguese league, for example, then I'm sure he will look like a worldbeater given the rest of his attributes. 13 means that, at the highest level, his anticipation is not really a weakness, but it isn't a strength. He just won't see events unfolding until they've almost happened.

[Neil Train]

having had all day to think about this (oh, the joys of not working for now) i still dont see anticipation as a major attribute. i have a solid 3 man midfield set to ballwinners who simply make a short pass to conca. he doesnt need anticipation to be in space (off the ball). it's what he can do, in space, on the ball that seems to count.

[ZdlR]

Spotting an incisive run is impossible without anticipation. If you have players making incisive runs, it is likely that Conca will not see the move unfold until - at worst - the defenders have read it and moved to eliminate the threat.

[Cleon]

having had all day to think about this (oh, the joys of not working for now) i still dont see anticipation as a major attribute. i have a solid 3 man midfield set to ballwinners who simply make a short pass to conca. he doesnt need anticipation to be in space (off the ball). it's what he can do, in space, on the ball that seems to count.

It's no good creating the space and not having the anticipation to receive the ball or read the next move though. Especially if he has players running off around him. He will miss a lot of the play happening around him. Anticipation is very important across all areas of the pitch. I mention anticipation in detail in some of the broken down moves in this thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238682-Explanation-of-the-Impact-of-Player-Attributes-During-Match-Play-*Updated-for-FM11*

However the player you mentioned is still good because he has enough other attributes to slightly off set his weakness. However anticipation is still important and he's missing a lot of stuff he should be getting right. Imagine how awesome he'd be with a high attribute for that

[Rio_V]

This was a really interesting read. Once again has me thinking about a lot of new things. ty, ZdlR

[Neil Train]

i'd read that thread before with some interest. none of my preferred players have great anticipation so i'll just live with it. dario conca ticks all the other boxes for me so i'll stick with him. i read a very interesting thread here about the trequartista in a 4-3-1-2 system saying the treq. should be head and shoulders technically superior to his team mates. cant find a decent AMC on my budget and reputation with much greater than 13 anticipation but my system allows for this. he's in space and i have 3xballwinners in the central midfield. their only role is to get the ball to him after regaining possession, i've skimped on creativity to provide a sound defensive base, and for now it's working

[SFraser]

Nice read. Never really thought of Klose as a playmaker before.

I like the look of him. Great spread of playmaker attributes and a touch of the flamboyant too. I'm guessing a lot of his play is based around clever little lay-offs and keeping the ball moving. With that in mind I would probably go hunting for an inside forward for your left flank, someone with bags of Off The Ball movement.

It's great to see more people looking at the mental side of the game because in my opinion the football you play on the pitch is much, much better looking. It looks clever and creative and that is always nice to watch.

[ZdlR]

With that in mind I would probably go hunting for an inside forward for your left flank, someone with bags of Off The Ball movement.

I bought Iker Muniain at the end of the season and trained him up to a natural AML. He hasn't got bags of off the ball movement (yet) but he is a very good young player. He has his 'quickness' attributes the right way round compared to N'Gog. While N'Gog has 14 acceleration and 17 pace, Muniain has 17 acceleration and 14 pace. This is far more desirable when threading balls through a back line for someone to run on to.

I have a theory - formulated purely through observation - that the attributes you see on a youth player are sometimes vastly lower than their ability in the match engine shows. I say this merely because I see a few of my younger prospects, whose attributes are still very poor in key positional areas, perform well above their apparent capacity.

With Gerrard out for 4 months due to Everton's horrific tactic of kicking lumps out of their more successful rivals - and new arrival Hamsik cup tied - I think Klose will be playing in quite a few of my Champions League group matches. Hopefully he will still perform even at 34. His natural fitness means that his physical stats are dropping and I can't really slow it down much. He will last this season and then his contract is up so I'm hoping for a decent swansong. His game isn't, thankfully, based on physicality so I'm sure he'll be ok for a while longer. If nothing else, he adds much needed experience to an otherwise overly youthful squad.

[Mike_Cardinal]

I wouldn't say that they are worse than their attributes imply, but rather, your young players often play like they have a point to prove, and go all out to impress you in the hopes of becoming a fixture in the first team. This freshness is definitely a big factor in why some managers like to work with young players in real life, too, I think.

[ZdlR]

Perhaps, but sometimes they aren't "looking fired up" or even "looking motivated" at these times. Muniain, for example, has 11 for long shots, finishing and composure. For a player that purports to be a striker, this is a definite weakness. However, the goal he scored against Stoke implied that he had all of these in abundance. Agreed, this is one incident in isolation, but I see it with a lot of my young players.

[NakS]

Maybe young players are less marked and marshalled by the AI because of lower ability than your shining and "I am dangerous" striker. It would make sense in AI logic I think, same process than match odds, you have team relative reputation (local, regional or more depending of the context), home or away and maybe things like away or home form, though I am not sure about the latter. Then AI manager look at this "figure" in a more or less agressive way according to his attacking stats and choose a starting strategy. I think the same process goes for players, well almost the same.

I read in wwfan thread that AI only use OI to negate players strenghts, not weakness. So it would make sense that the AI is more likely to use OI (marking for example) to cope with the more obvious threat tactically speaking, so your young player is more likely to have space to operate into and so, is more likely to be succesfull in long shot for example even if attributes are not that great, just because of the little more space allowed that will make him shot "better".

[ZdlR]

Just to get back on the topic of Miroslav Klose. I just played him in his first game of the season away at Basel in the champions league group stages. I have been playing a rather young squad in the league so far and wanted to go with more experienced heads in the CL.

I played this team:

The aim was to make Torres the focal point of attacks and try to break his duck for the season (he seems a bit jaded from the Euro 2012 Championships). In defence I wanted to drop back and form two walls that Basel would - hopefully - be unable to break down, possibly breaking at pace if the opportunity arose but certainly holding onto possession otherwise.

As you can see, I was quite successful with that:

I'm very proud of those numbers. 6 of those CCCs came from Torres:

Sadly, despite the great positions that he got into a mixture of profligacy, over-zealous mentality, inspired keeper and luck conspired against him and he only put away one of those chances. On another day he'd have got a double-hatrick.

The role that Klose played in all this was impressive. He finished man of the match completing 38 from 48 passes, 5 of which were key. He also scored a goal with his only shot of the game, which was an unexpected delight.

It's worth noting that I removed Klose's roaming and wideplay instructions for this game and gave them to Torres instead. And gave him a more direct passing style - about 17 or so. I also swapped their positions round for the second half so that Torres was on the left. This was because it appeared that Basel were trying to force Klose onto his left foot and he was finding it difficult to pass to Torres. That explains the spread of shots that Torres took despite being paired up front;.

[ZdlR]

Klose's goal:

[video=youtube;3O8Yh85oit0]

A very simple tap-in that he couldn't miss really. This shows the tail-end of an effective counter attack (I do wish I could upload these videos in 2D classic mode).

[video=youtube;8hTEWJvMZps]

This shows just how well the two strikers with very contrasting mentalities (about 7 and 17, respectively) can link-up if they have the right attributes.

[terrybecker]

posts like this one are what really hurt this video game, irl miroslav klose has cement feet, he wouldn't even be able to pick up his head to spot those passes as he would be struggling to control the ball.

there is a reason only the most technically proficient players play as an amc. this really takes away the validity of this game as a simulation.

[SFraser]

posts like this one are what really hurt this video game, irl miroslav klose has cement feet, he wouldn't even be able to pick up his head to spot those passes as he would be struggling to control the ball.

there is a reason only the most technically proficient players play as an amc. this really takes away the validity of this game as a simulation.

Is your memory so short you can't think back to last summer when he destroyed England with pass-and-move football? Because mine isn't.

The most technically proficient players play wherever technically proficient play is required and in the modern game this is most places on the pitch. I watched the Man United game today and Anderson missed two sitters through the middle while Nani set up both goals running from the flank and another three cutback chances to the edge of the box.

[martinpetrov]

If i remember correctly isnt miroslav klose one of the highest scorers in world cup history? Anyway, i find this topic very informative and its nice to see that managers are looking at getting the most out of there players attributes. Well done.

[ZdlR]

posts like this one are what really hurt this video game, irl miroslav klose has cement feet, he wouldn't even be able to pick up his head to spot those passes as he would be struggling to control the ball.

there is a reason only the most technically proficient players play as an amc. this really takes away the validity of this game as a simulation.

But I'm playing him as a striker, not AMC.

[terrybecker]

fist of all play-makers are notoriously bad finishers, because the attributes needed are different, technical midfielders think too much sometimes and they miss sitters. klose is just a finisher, he has very good off the ball movement and he is a smart player, technically though he is not gifted. irl he would be an inefficient play-maker. England was beaten by ozil and mueller not klose, klose and podolski only support the attacking moves with their movement, however the technical ability and play making ability relies on those two especially ozil.

[J.T]

Great thread, makes you realise how important it is to have the right stats and implement them correctly

[SFraser]

fist of all play-makers are notoriously bad finishers

You mean like Pele, Maradonna, Cruyff, Messi, Bergkamp, Cantona, Zidane, Rivaldo, Paul Scholes, Kaka, Ronaldinho etc? There is a whiff of something rotten about your arguement.

because the attributes needed are different, technical midfielders think too much sometimes and they miss sitters.

A couple of points:

A: You sound like an Arsenal fan.

B: Some of the worlds most technical players are also the most lethal goalscorers. Messi in particular springs to mind, his finishing ability is just about the best I have ever seen.

C: Technique is not the crucial element in a playmaker. The defining element of the playmaker is his appreciation of space and movement not his ability to pull off excellent tricks or curl fancy passes. A playmaker is not premised upon his ability to strike a ball sweetly, he is premised upon his ability to open up defences and keep play moving with his movement and vision in a team context. A playmaker is someone that makes the team play football and the core of that ability is moving into space to offer a passing option and then playing the ball to someone in a good position to then play another pass. That's a playmaker.

klose is just a finisher, he has very good off the ball movement and he is a smart player, technically though he is not gifted. irl he would be an inefficient play-maker. England was beaten by ozil and mueller not klose, klose and podolski only support the attacking moves with their movement, however the technical ability and play making ability relies on those two especially ozil.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. Without creating space and disruption in the oppositions defence there would be nowhere of threat for Ozil and Mueller to move into and exploit with quick link up. Klose's movement off the Centrebacks was the fundamental source of Germany's attacking threat. It was he that created the opportunity for the other players to play effective attacking football.

One of the key tactical elements in the German perfomance at the World Cup was Klose, Ozil, Mueller, Keita and Lahm all attacking the right flank at pace which caused defences to panic and often left Podolski unmarked at the back post. Klose would pull right and this would leave the channel between the opponents Leftback and Left Centreback completely exposed to attack because Mueller, Keita, Lahm and Ozil would all be working the ball at pace between runners into that area. If the Right Centreback did not follow Klose then the left Centreback could not defend the channel while the midfield and leftback tried to mark the overloading runners. Ozil would exploit this space mercilessly. If the Right Centreback did follow Klose and allowed the Left Centreback to defend the channel then the Rightback was placed into a situation where he could not face play and defend the centre at the same time as facing Podolski. Germany scored a shedload of goals against teams playing this way, how many times did Podolski arrive unmarked at the back post for a tap in, or a rocket as he likes to hit them? They were brutal untill they met Spain and their own wingers were pinned back and had to defend. Then Klose's movement counted for nothing because Germany couldn't get the support to him.

Klose's movement into deep and/or wide areas was crucial in disrupting the back four and overloading the flanks of the opposition, sometimes he even went as far as to play up against the Fullbacks and give Germany a five man to three or four man advantage in those areas.

The ability for Germany to overload one small region of the pitch with huge numbers of players through the movement only of the FC and the penetrating runs of the AMC into the channels, and the ingenuity of Spain literally playing a Striker on the wing to fully exploit this assymetric overload is the reason why I adopted the 4-2-3-1 for my own saves. It's also the reason why I have thread titled "Why Your Playmaker Should Play Upfront". If Spain lacked one thing at the World Cup it was a Centreforward like Klose when Villa was playing Left Wing. That would have been the complete package. Torres is far too much of a pure striker to have genuinely improved the Spanish side playing at Centreforward. And we all saw how poor a World Cup Torres had. Indeed the perfect player for Spain at Centreforward in my opinion would be Berbatov, but that's us into fantasy football now.

[Falahk]

posts like this one are what really hurt this video game, irl miroslav klose has cement feet, he wouldn't even be able to pick up his head to spot those passes as he would be struggling to control the ball.

there is a reason only the most technically proficient players play as an amc. this really takes away the validity of this game as a simulation.

if you have problems with any of Klose's stats then that is a data issue and have no relevance to this thread, you should then post your concerns in the german league thread of the data forum (in the bug section), and provide valid arguments why you think the stats are wrong

oh and Totti just neted one more brace the other day, what SFraser is going on about is not exactly anything new

[terrybecker]

i am a milan fan, wenger is one of the worst tacticians in the world, messi is not a playmaker he just tries to be one, out of the ones you listed i only consider zidane ronaldinho and totti as true playmakers, the rest are forwards with excellent skill in the vein of berbatov. what i meant by bad finishers i meant the ability of finishing sitters, they all score spectacular goals but sometimes miss real simple goals, as they tend to think too much, im talking about real playamakers here like seedorf. rui costa, deco etc.

anyway the point of my argument is that the op chose klose as the pm which means balls were being directed to his feet, and from then he is supposed to create something with his wonderful vision and technique, which is a ridiculous move in real life as he possesses neither.

[SFraser]

i am a milan fan, wenger is one of the worst tacticians in the world

Wenger is an excellent tactician, just not a practical tactician and that prevents him being in the top drawer of winning tacticians like Ancelotti, Mourinho and Ferguson.

Wenger put together a team that went unbeaten in a league season while playing open, attacking, free flowing football which is a truly marvelous achievement. The problem is that this admirable philosophy has also cost Arsenal a lot of trophies. Arsenals style of football under Wenger will be remembered for a long time. It doesn't however sate fans that want trophies today.

messi is not a playmaker he just tries to be one, out of the ones you listed i only consider zidane ronaldinho and totti as true playmakers, the rest are forwards with excellent skill in the vein of berbatov. what i meant by bad finishers i meant the ability of finishing sitters, they all score spectacular goals but sometimes miss real simple goals, as they tend to think too much, im talking about real playamakers here like seedorf. rui costa, deco etc.

You seem to have this idea of a "playmaker" being a number ten that sits between the lines and sprays passes around. Very few of that type of player exist at the top levels of the sport any more because tactics have evolved to deal with the Zidanes and Deco's and Rui Costa's of the 90's and 2000's. Today you are far more likely to find your "playmaker" sitting in the holding midfield role (Alonso, Pirlo, Carrick, Scholes, Pizarro, Schweinsteiger, Veron, Wilshire?) or in midfield such as Xavi and Iniesta and Fabregas. Or peeling off into the channels in advanced areas like Van Persie, Ozil, Rooney, Berbatov, Totti.

Infact the last place you are likely to find a playmaker is in the hole because there is no more hole. Instead what we find "in the hole" is pacey, dribbly, tricky to tackle players alot more like the old style winger. Kaka, Ozil, sometimes Messi particularly for Argentina, even Sjnieder. Players that have the ability to wriggle through a clump of three or four opponents in close proximity to each other or make utterly piercing forward runs.

Perhaps the closest thing to a traditional "10" of the 90's and 2000's in World Football today is how Wayne Rooney played against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge in the European Cup. Last seasons top goalscorer in the Premier League playing behind Hernandez and dropping deep into midfield when defending. Dropping ontop of Essien when Chelsea had the ball. Rooney is a far cry from the Zidane's and Deco's and Rui Costa's of the 90's and 2000's, yet is probably the closest thing to a "playmaker" as you describe it in the world at this precise moment in time, particularly after his last match against Chelsea.

Why is Rooney so suited to playing in the hole when managers seem to be dropping their playmakers ever deeper into midfield or pushing them ever further upfront or out wide? Pace, Strength, Workrate plus sublime movement and distribution. Rooney's dribbling skills are close to non-existant but he can dominant DM's and bully holding midfielders, effectively "mark" deep influential midfielders out of the game, while supporting both the attack and the defence in a matter of seconds, and can actually play football in that environment. What would Rui Costa have done up against the 4-2-3-1's of today? Or Deco? Given them free reign to dictate the football match from deep?

To exploit "the hole" in modern football you need one of two things.

1: A player with the power of Gerrard, Rooney, Ronaldo.

2: Or Tiki Taka, the ability to play short passing football between 3-4 players around every player in the opponents team.

The "playmakers" of the 90's are no longer suited to trying to operate in the hole. They now operate as holding midfielders or move high/wide. Iniesta is the perfect case in point, possessing very few of the attributes of a winger and most of the attributes of a playmaker and ripping teams apart as he slowly drifts infield from wide playing slick passing football with his chum Xavi.

And let me point out something else. Although Chelsea narrowly won the league last season they have been very off-boil in the past few seasons and this coincides with a complete lack of playmakers. They lost Deco, they lost Robben. Ancelotti made a signing this season that he said was a a signing with "Tactical Intelligence" Yossi Benayoun, a winger that has all the attributes of the "playmaker" you describe, who subsequently ruptured his achilles and has been out for six months. Ancelotti has been without his "Tactically Intelligent" signing (playmaker) for most of this season and have had a pretty poor season looking devoid of creativity.

anyway the point of my argument is that the op chose klose as the pm which means balls were being directed to his feet, and from then he is supposed to create something with his wonderful vision and technique, which is a ridiculous move in real life as he possesses neither.

A goal can be created with movement as much as with passing. My arguement is that your "playmaker" as you narrowly define it is a very rare breed in football today. Expand your understanding of the term "playmaker" and suddenly they start popping up in a whole range of tactically interesting positions with tactically interesting roles. Above all else though a playmaker needs to be able to create space for himself.

[mingliangzhou]

I become the manager of FC Bayern in may,2012. I am considering wheather I should keep Miroslav Klose in my team. Beacause of his age age salary,I am not going to renewal him. But after I read the passage, I think he can still stay in my team.

[ZdlR]

I become the manager of FC Bayern in may,2012. I am considering wheather I should keep Miroslav Klose in my team. Beacause of his age age salary,I am not going to renewal him. But after I read the passage, I think he can still stay in my team.

It is worth noting that I don't rely on him in anything but simple games. Against the third and fourth seeds in my champions league groups he looks good (9.1 and 7.9, respectively). But, even at home to Leicester in the league he looks off the pace (6.4). It doesn't help that he has lost consistency, too. Perhaps it is because I have signed better backroom staff, or perhaps it is the rigors of age, but he is now listed as 'fairly inconsistent'. He also doesn't have the winning mentality that the vast majority of the rest of my professional, determined squad has. He was signed to be a bit-part player and to support another decent, yet flawed, forward in David N'Gog. I usually let that sort of player leave because he is too average, but pace up top is pace up top and he does have some other useful attributes to support that. By choosing the games in which to play N'Gog wisely, he has an average league rating of 7.36 with 5 goals from 6 starts and 2 further sub appearances. This also takes the weight off Torres who is very prone to taking knocks during games and needs to be handled with a lot of care lest he burn out over a season.

In conclusion, Klose has been a decent signing for me. I've been happy with how he has turned out, but he is definitely in the twilight of his career and his physical stats have irreparably dropped - to the point where he can't really roam any more, he just needs to stand still and keep the ball moving on its journey up the pitch. Over the last few appearances he's made, he has finished the game on ~55% condition, leading to further declines in stamina. The vicious cycle of decline has begun in earnest.

[Bruce Drundrige]

posts like this one are what really hurt this video game, irl miroslav klose has cement feet, he wouldn't even be able to pick up his head to spot those passes as he would be struggling to control the ball.

there is a reason only the most technically proficient players play as an amc. this really takes away the validity of this game as a simulation.

The point of this thread is to show how you can effectively utilise the attributes a player possesses, not claiming that Klose is an amazing playmaker that you should build your team around. You're also being incredibly harsh on Klose...

[mdbussen]

wenger is one of the worst tacticians in the world,

messi is not a playmaker he just tries to be one

Please stop. You're embarrassing yourself.

[ham_aka_stam]

I would also argue that the definition of playmaker is a role someone plays, not how good they are. So terry saying Messi merely tries to be a playmaker, suggests that he thinks he IS a playmaker, and just not a good one. Which not only makes your statement a contradiction, it's still wrong.

[Andy107]

i have a very similar approach using kanu with pompey and believe its a vital idea with experienced players to utilise them to their full potential. world class with the ball at his feet, but the aerobic ability of a toddler means i don't easily have the pleasure of starting king all too often, but his ability to make an impact is still potentially massive. glad people are trying to utilise players or alter players' that are perhaps after their peaks, but if utilised correctly still can produce those moments of magic.

[ZdlR]

i have a very similar approach using kanu with pompey and believe its a vital idea with experienced players to utilise them to their full potential. world class with the ball at his feet, but the aerobic ability of a toddler means i don't easily have the pleasure of starting king all too often, but his ability to make an impact is still potentially massive. glad people are trying to utilise players or alter players' that are perhaps after their peaks, but if utilised correctly still can produce those moments of magic.

Yeah, I'm sure Kanu can tear up the Championship on his day. Klose just scored a brace and set up another in the Champions League. It was a dead rubber at home to Basel, but it's a 7v1 win that means we top the group and I didn't have to play Torres.

[Andy107]

it was interesting to hear you swapped klose's position in the first basel match. did you check the in-game passing stats to come to the conclusion that he was being forced onto his weaker foot or simply observing the ME?

have you identified anyone you hope to replace klose with by chance?

[ZdlR]

Just by watching the full match. I do sometimes look at the analysis if I feel I want backing up with a tactical decision, but it seemed obvious that he was trying to pass with his right foot but being forced onto his left.

No sure who to replace him with. I have Torres as my main front man in a 4231 and then N'Gog really needs a partner - his rating with Klose in a 442 is a full point higher than playing Torres' lone role. But then I have Iker Muniain waiting to make the move from AML to ST. I might sell N'Gog if I can get decent money for him and replace him with someone more capable of covering for Torres alone. Not really sure as yet. Klose, however, will not be being renewed I don't think.

[blurps]

No sure who to replace him with.

Did you have a look at Andre Schürrle ? He starts out on loan at Mainz 05 ( from Bayer Leverkusen ) and while he still needs some work he has many of the right mental stats already in place. I have no idea about his PA though.