The Brazil Thread

[PMLF]

The confidence of Brazilian fans on the national team winning the WC, and on Dunga's work has decreased since December (according to a Datafolha survey):

Will Brazil win the WC:

December - 73% yes

April - 64% yes

Is Dunga doing a good or very good job:

December: 64% yes

April: 57%

[G-Man11]

Doni is crap . How is he your second choice with all your decent keepers?

[PMLF]

Doni is crap . How is he our second choice with all your decent keepers?

Ask Dunga.

But based on his previous performances for Brazil I think he would perform more or less as well as Júlio César, or any other goalie. JC is hyped a lot, but for Brazil Doni (despite being an awful goalie) was fairly decent, especially in Copa América 2007.

[G-Man11]

Just noticed I put 'our' by accident . I don't support Brazil and meant to put your!

[PMLF]

I didn't even notice, I am also trying to avoid using "our" or "us" or "we" when referring to Brazil's national team, as Brazil are nowadays just the national team I follow, not exactly the national team I support (as it's too non-national for my taste, as discussed a million times before).

[samba23]

I heard that Dunga confirmed recently that Neymar wouldn't be in his world cup squad is that true?

[PMLF]

He didn't exactly say he won't call up Neymar, but he has said there won't be surprises, which pretty much rules out any player that was not called up by him in recent times (such as Neymar).

No doubt the absence of Neymar, Paulo Henrique, Ronaldinho and other players will haunt him when/if Brazil lose the WC.

[Helarxe]

Now I wish he took Ganso, Neymar and the rest of Santos. Then when we lose it will burn them as players and discourage home based players from being called up in the future

[gaga_4_parma]

I didn't even notice, I am also trying to avoid using "our" or "us" or "we" when referring to Brazil's national team, as Brazil are nowadays just the national team I follow, not exactly the national team I support (as it's too non-national for my taste, as discussed a million times before).

I don't understand...

non-national...meaning not enough players who play in Brazil? Too many foreign based players?

[Guest roberto922]

You got it first time.

[docklanders]

Paulo

I've sent an email to gonch, with the overall world cup preview. Could you send me your 23 man squad and reasons and we'll debate on the different players we have via chat on gmail tonight or whenever you're available. Also, i can ask gonch if he wants to make us both co-writers if you like, or we can continue working through my authorship with mentions of your name. Your call.

Cheers

Jon

[PMLF]

I don't understand...

non-national...meaning not enough players who play in Brazil? Too many foreign based players?

Yes, Brazil looks like a European team in disguise, not Brazil. If Brazil lose, it won't be too different for me than if say Spain or Slovenia lose.

Paulo

I've sent an email to gonch, with the overall world cup preview. Could you send me your 23 man squad and reasons and we'll debate on the different players we have via chat on gmail tonight or whenever you're available. Also, i can ask gonch if he wants to make us both co-writers if you like, or we can continue working through my authorship with mentions of your name. Your call.

Cheers

Jon

I would prefer as co-writers, I'll take a look on this after the ECL game.

[docklanders]

I would prefer as co-writers, I'll check a look on this after the ECL game.

Check a look on this?

[PMLF]

I am writing something right now and I'll send it to you soon.

[docklanders]

I am writing something right now and I'll send it to you soon.

Looking forward to it. I'm off to bed now but will have my ipod with me for around about an hour so will take a look, wont be able to reply until tomorrow however, if you can access your email at work i can reply to you at about 10AM your time (got a designated clock for Rio now, makes me feel businessy ).

[PMLF]

By the way, I meant to say "check" or "take a look" there, I don't know why I mixed the expressions.

Brazil is back to the first position on FIFA's ranking:

1 - Brasil - 1.611 pontos

2 - Espanha - 1.565 pontos

3- Portugal - 1.249 pontos

4- Holanda -1.221 pontos

5 - Itália - 1.184 pontos

6- Alemanha - 1.107 pontos

7 - Argentina - 1.084 pontos

8 - Inglaterra- 1.068 pontos

9 - Croácia - 1.052 pontos

10 - França 1.044 pontos

--------

27 - Costa do Marfim - 846 pontos

107 - Coreia do Norte - 292 pontos

[gaga_4_parma]

Yes, Brazil looks like a European team in disguise, not Brazil. If Brazil lose, it won't be too different for me than if say Spain or Slovenia lose.

Hmm...interesting...

So if you were a player you wouldn't be attracted by all the money, glitz and glamour that european football clubs have...?

I think it's just natural now for players to migrate to who ever will pay them more and offer them things you can only dream or imagine of...

I wonder sometimes if football hadn't become a business whether players would migrate...

I think the best option is a wage cap across all top-flight football leagues. Then we would be able to see the true motivation behind moves to clubs.

[PMLF]

Hmm...interesting...

So if you were a player you wouldn't be attracted by all the money, glitz and glamour that european football clubs have...?

I think it's just natural now for players to migrate to who ever will pay them more and offer them things you can only dream or imagine of...

I wonder sometimes if football hadn't become a business whether players would migrate...

I think the best option is a wage cap across all top-flight football leagues. Then we would be able to see the true motivation behind moves to clubs.

What attracts players to Europe (or Mideast or Asia, or other SA players coming to Brazil, etc...) is the money, but I don't care if they have good or bad reasons to play abroad as in the end of the day it still means these players aren't representatives of Brazilian football anymore. The team is a travesty, as many of the players played only a few games in Brazil, and many are barely known here. They just happen to have Brazilian citizenship (and other foreign national teams are full of Brazilian players who are just like those who play for Brazil) but have done very little for football here.

It's also very hard to even discuss with other people here (I mean in real life, not on boards like this one) about the national team as most couldn't care less about how this or that guy is doing in some foreign league. And they are right in feeling that way, why should they care about leagues that have no effect on them?

I really wouldn't mind if it was only a couple of foreign-based ones, but the way it is now I find it very hard to feel any connection with the team, as much as I love the national team as an institution.

And I doubt any system limiting the wages would work, as clubs will always find ways to circumvent the rule.

[Astafjevs]

Everytime I see the FIFA rankings, I get more irritated. Once again, I cannot hold back.

How on earth are Portugal in 3rd place? Such a joke.

[PMLF]

Everytime I see the FIFA rankings, I get more irritated. Once again, I cannot hold back.

How on earth are Portugal in 3rd place? Such a joke.

It would be good if they showed how exactly each point was earned, as Portugal's position is indeed beyond absurd. Brazil's is a bit weird too, but at least Brazil did get many good results in this period, especially in key games like the WC Quals and the Conf Cup. And Spain's points in the EC are losing strength too. So it's easier to find a reasonable explanation for that.

Croatia's position is weird too, by the way.

[Helarxe]

We suck, no doubt about it, but the rankings reflect no one has taken us to task and beaten us properly during this period, as no doubt Spain, Holland or Argentina (under a proper manager) could, on a good day.

[PMLF]

"Brazil suck" is probably harsh as many other teams suck even more (although Brazil suck is spot on in a historical context). It's in general a good team despite the fact most of the players aren't that great. Anyway, being in top 2 is fair even though I'll be surprised if Brazil win (but I wouldn't rule Brazil out as the tradition alone should help Brazil have a chance of going far).

A good question is how the ECL final will affect JC, Lúcio and Maicon in the WC, as they will miss the first day (s) of training for the WC (as those start before the ECL final) and the extra game (which should be a tough one too) will affect their physical condition. Ideally they should be rested in most of the remaining league games, but I don't know if that will happen.

[Astafjevs]

They won't be rested with Inter still going for the Scudetto. If they wrap it up before the last game (which would need Roma to drop points in the next two games), expect to see the entire team rested.

[Crazy_T]

stole this, but it's accurate and clearly shows how brazil line up

[PMLF]

They won't be rested with Inter still going for the Scudetto. If they wrap it up before the last game (which would need Roma to drop points in the next two games), expect to see the entire team rested.

Dunga must be hoping Internazionale win quickly then.

stole this, but it's accurate and clearly shows how brazil line up

This is more or less all right, although Elano should be the first teamer instead of Ramires and Robinho is much less of a winger than that pic makes it look like.

And the arrow on Michel Bastos could be shorter as he won't advance as much/as often as Maicon.

Where did you steal it from?

I wonder why is "Melo" for FM while the others have their correct names (accent marks aside).

[Crazy_T]

yeah I was thinking more position-wise than personnel-wise, although it's still accurate.

it's from zonalmarking, there's like an in-depth look at brazil's style there.

[PMLF]

yeah I was thinking more position-wise than personnel-wise, although it's still accurate.

it's from zonalmarking, there's like an in-depth look at brazil's style there.

Could you post a linkage here?

They talk about the other teams too, don't they?

[Crazy_T]

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/03/analysing-brazils-fluid-system-at-close-quarters/

yeah usually covers big games

[PMLF]

Thanks!

I like to read this kind of stuff.

That article shows well why using labels like 4-2-3-1 or whatever for a tactic is silly.

[Astafjevs]

[u]Portugal[/u]

Bosnia  (H)   1-0   (42nd)
Bosnia  (A)   1-0   (42nd)
China   (H)   2-0   (87th)


[u]Argentina

[/u]Spain      (A)   1-2  (2nd)
Germany    (A)   1-0  (6th)


[u]Germany[/u]

Ivory Coast  (H)  2-2   (19th)
Argentina    (H)  0-1   (8th)


[u]Italy

[/u]Holland   (H)   0-0   (3rd)
Sweden    (H)   1-0   (41st)
Cameroon  (N)   0-0   (20th)


[u]Holland

[/u]Italy     (A)   0-0   (4th)
Paraguay  (H)   0-0   (21st)
USA       (H)   2-1   (14th)


[u]Spain

[/u]Argentina   (H)   2-1   (6th)
Austria     (A)   5-1   (58th)
France      (A)   2-0   (7th)


[u]Brazil

[/u]England                (N)   1-0  (7th)
Oman                   (A)   2-0  (79th)
Republic of Ireland    (N)   2-0  (37th)

The above shows the games played since 16th October, 2009. At that point, the FIFA rankings looked like this:

1. Brazil

2. Spain

3. Holland

4. Italy

5. Germany

6. Argentina

7. England

8. Croatia

9. France

10. Portgual

Next to the matches above, I have listed in brackets the ranking of the opponent at the time of the fixture.

Two points arise from this:

How does beating three weak teams, as Portugal have done (twice at home) move you up 7 places? Especially when you move above teams like Italy, who were unbeaten against three opponents higher ranked; Argentina, who played top-10 opponents, and won once; and Holland, who like Italy were unbeaten, except this time against higher ranked opposition. This FIFA ranking rewards beating minnows, as opposed to playing good teams.

How are Spain - who have won all three games, two against teams in the top-10 - still in 2nd place when Brazil have played rubbish teams other than England?

[PMLF]

Two points arise from this:

How does beating three weak teams, as Portugal have done (twice at home) move you up 7 places? Especially when you move above teams like Italy, who were unbeaten against three opponents higher ranked; Argentina, who played top-10 opponents, and won once; and Holland, who like Italy were unbeaten, except this time against higher ranked opposition. This FIFA ranking rewards beating minnows, as opposed to playing good teams.

How are Spain - who have won all three games, two against teams in the top-10 - still in 2nd place when Brazil have played rubbish teams other than England?

You also have to remove the points from what is now before the 4-year period (but that were still counted back in October) and take into account that older points lose value over time.

In theory matches against weaker teams and teams from weaker confs and in weaker comps are worth less points too. In Brazil's case I think the main factor is that Brazil won the Conf Cup and had a decent record in that period in the WC Quals.

Portugal's case is still hard to explain though. They did improve in more recent times, but hardly that much to be in the top 3.

[docklanders]

Cheers for that link Crazy_T .

[docklanders]

Any response from gonch Paulo?

[PMLF]

Any response from gonch Paulo?

Not yet. I hope he answers soon enough.

[docklanders]

Not yet. I hope he answers soon enough.

I'm sure he will i've heard nothing since either but he usually emails back in the early hours of the morning. I'll keep refreshing mail .

Do you want to trim the current squad to a 23 man squad tonight?

[PMLF]

Yes, it can be, send me an email, but the team won't be much different from what I posted in some part of this thread.

[docklanders]

Yes, it can be, send me an email, but the team won't be much different from what I posted in some part of this thread.

You may have to wait a while as i'm extremely busy at the moment (believe it or not! ).

I'll lay it all out and send you a PDF file to view it later on, should have it to you at around 2AM Rio time .

[PMLF]

You may have to wait a while as i'm extremely busy at the moment (believe it or not! ).

I'll lay it all out and send you a PDF file to view it later on, should have it to you at around 2AM Rio time .

That's fine, although I am not 100% sure if I'll be online.

[docklanders]

That's fine, although I am not 100% sure if I'll be online.

How sure are you? I can try and swap a few things around and get it closer to 1AM than 2AM.

[PMLF]

How sure are you? I can try and swap a few things around and get it closer to 1AM than 2AM.

I think it's more likely I am online than I am not at the time. It depends on whether I'll finish some stuff earlier or not.

[docklanders]

I've sent you the email .

[PMLF]

Jorginho (Dunga's assistant manager) visited Flamengo's training today (Saturday), but Adriano wasn't there (he missed due to a supposed problem with his mother), so I think Adriano must have ruined for good his chances to go to the WC (and these chances have been decreasing since he makes one mistake after another, and fail to impress at Flamengo in the current 2010 season), as Jorginho obviously wanted to see how Adriano and Kléberson are.

It also means that Grafite's chances to make it into the WC have increased...

If Adriano indeed misses the WC, I hope Dunga selects anyone but VW player Grafite. Unfortunately though Grafite (followed by Hulk) is probably the logical replacement for Adriano in Dunga's mind.

If Dunga was less stubborn he could also use this as an opportunity to make the Brazilian public happy and so include Neymar in the squad.

[GG17]

Pato......?

[PMLF]

No chance, he was given lots of chances at the senior and Olympic national teams and wasted them all (well, except for his debut, but that was the only highlight of his games for Brazil so far). Besides, he is not showing much professionalism lately, spending too much time having fun on the Milanese nights, along with Ronaldinho.

And finally, even if he was doing great, he would most likely be used as a replacement for Nilmar or Robinho, not for Luís Fabiano or Adriano.

[PMLF]

Apparently there is a very good chance Brazil play a friendly against the host nation South Africa just before the WC starts, the game would take place at some point between June 2nd and June 7th.

[PMLF]

As this is more related to the current WC team (not to the national team in general), I'll post it here. This is the appearance of the two buses the squad will use during the first stage of the preparation, which will take place here in Brazil (the first bus will be based in Rio de Janeiro, and the second one in Curitiba for the first stage of preparation there):

The buses were built in Resende, here in the state of Rio de Janeiro.

I think they look pretty beautiful despite the huge Nazi...er...CBF badge there.

[G-Man11]

Nice vital bit of information there Paulo .

[PMLF]

Nice vital bit of information there Paulo .

The 30-player squad will be announced tomorrow, by the way.

I know it won't happen, but I hope Dunga includes Neymar and Paulo Henrique, both from Santos, and also Victor, Miranda, Gilberto, Kléberson, Adriano and Robinho. And hopefully players like Grafite won't be anywhere near the squad, and someone like Maxwell (who is unproven in Brazilian football, and anyway has just gotten injured and will miss the next 3 weeks) won't be included either, let Spain, Italy or Holland have him...

[Lisandro Lopez]

Brazil needs Grafite. ;o

[Crazy_T]

I am all for paulo henrique if it means no more elano/j.baptista/ramires.

I don't really see the need for neymar (although it seems like he's guaranteed to be there in the near future) though when you have robinho, luís fabiano, nilmar, adriano. would definitely prefer neymar to grafite though

would like to see marcelo/maxwell personally, probably biased about maxwell since his barca move though.