9.3.0 has ruined an already frustrating game for me.

[Richie Brill]

For some reason I keep double posting, despite only clicking post once!

[Macflyer]

Interesting to hear that all from experienced players.

I could somewhat tweak FM08 tactics to work satisfactorily and build up a lower league team that would success after some seasons, whereas in FM09 I'm always tied up in relegation battle and team doesn't seem to gel at all, etc.

I do believe in FM09 as an improvement in several areas, but it's hard to enjoy for me as much as I'm enjoying again FM08 right now.

[pires29]

The biggest inconsistency i have noticed since patch 9.3.0 is just how many times team A will completely dominate one half and team B will completely dominate another, this is noticeable in AI v's AI games as well?

Got to agree with you there, quite a few games in my last season i've stormed into the lead in the 1st half then at half time go more defensive, ( I still don't agree with this as big teams only attack less they don't adopt a defensive mentality, especially against teams in the bottom half and when playing at home) play narrower so that we are more solid and drop the tempo to try and control possesion but nearly everytime we get battered in the second half and I feel like we have been lucky to come away with a win.

[Rupal]

Rupal:

Chopper's original test was in a match where one team were clear favourites, if I recall. There's obviously going to be more variation in the outcome of any fixture where teams are more equally matched, so I don't think the above results show that anything's changed in 9.3.

Secondly, the sheer number of confounding variables mean that these kind of tests prove very little about how 'random' the game is. In this case, with one team controlled by the AI, you've no idea what aspects of their tactics they change, what their team talks are, etc. Even if the human user uses the same half-time team talk each time, the outcome is totally different depending on the context of the game.

Football games change completely depending on match events - who scores first, injuries, bookings, sendings offs, etc. It's not like you can get a reliable baseline for the consistency of the same game replayed in real-life, so I'm not sure what people are trying to measure it against.

I understand the number of variables thing OK. Indeed, one of the gripes some of us have is that the more new things that that SI put in, the greater lack of control one feels. It may be more 'realistic' (though that's open to debate) but also detract from the game as a game.

As far as I remember, Chopper's results were between two teams where one was a slight rather than a clear favourite (although I may have misremembered that). And could be a fair difference between a side lying 8th and one lying 14th (we don't know the points gap of course). But you may well be right. Anyway, Chopper is the one who has the info.

[Hammer1000]

Got to agree with you there, quite a few games in my last season i've stormed into the lead in the 1st half then at half time go more defensive, ( I still don't agree with this as big teams only attack less they don't adopt a defensive mentality, especially against teams in the bottom half and when playing at home) play narrower so that we are more solid and drop the tempo to try and control possesion but nearly everytime we get battered in the second half and I feel like we have been lucky to come away with a win.

Glad i'm not the only one :o

[RT--]

I'm not sure a decent football management sim is ever going to offer you the degree of 'control' you want, because the world it's trying to simulate is notoriously unpredictable. The best you can ever hope for is try and tip the odds in your favour with your decisions and input, but there are bound to be times where you lose games despite doing very little wrong. Whether that lack of control detracts from it's enjoyability as a computer game is open to debate, I guess.

[pires29]

Glad i'm not the only one :o

I'm quite sure it's been raised before and all anyone said was the usual "it's your tactics" but i'm no idiot and I always change my tactics at half time at the latest but it never seems to make any difference what I do apart from a few occassions when I get a last minute goal after the AI goes 4-2-4.

[DanGLiverpool]

A rule I stick by with any game that involves DRM is never to buy it within the first couple of weeks, then get it, because by then any issues with DRM should be sorted. Steam has been nothing but easy for me, does the updating by itself, and it was easy to download the demo with.

As for tactics, I just rotate between the standard ones there, and I feel that I don't do terribly badly.

[Hammer1000]

I'm quite sure it's been raised before and all anyone said was the usual "it's your tactics" but i'm no idiot and I always change my tactics at half time at the latest but it never seems to make any difference what I do apart from a few occassions when I get a last minute goal after the AI goes 4-2-4.

I just wonder if its going to get looked at as some kind of issue?

Dont get me wrong, it works in my favour too(well the Ass Mans, as i'm only playing in Holiday mode at the moment) but its nevertheless a very extreme turnabout.

[Rupal]

I'm not sure a decent football management sim is ever going to offer you the degree of 'control' you want, because the world it's trying to simulate is notoriously unpredictable. The best you can ever hope for is try and tip the odds in your favour with your decisions and input, but there are bound to be times where you lose games despite doing very little wrong. Whether that lack of control detracts from it's enjoyability as a computer game is open to debate, I guess.

Yes, I think that's at the heart of the 'realism versus fun' debate, really.

FM is a computer game at the end of the day, though, so it ignores the fun element at its peril.

[Mitja]

That’s right; patch 9.3.0 has made FM09 unplayable for me. Before you dismiss this as just another rant please consider my post history. I’ve always been constructive in any criticism I’ve had for the game, and have always been a supporter on the forums of all FM games up to this point. On top of that I feel that in years gone by I’ve helped many people on here who’ve had problems or issues with the game. But since FM09 was released it’s caused me nothing but frustration, and I’ll explain why below.

sorry to hear that mate! SI should get worried when chopper's starting threads like this one

but at least you'll get the picture how i feel for years now for other reasons than you but still..

[RT--]

Yes, I think that's at the heart of the 'realism versus fun' debate, really.

FM is a computer game at the end of the day, though, so it ignores the fun element at its peril.

Ah, but a lot of the fun derives from the realism in a sim, doesn't it? They're not two ends of a scale.

I can't see any way that FM can offer a really high level of input>output control that some people seem to want, without sacrificing the realism. As I say, it's just simulating a sport that's hugely unpredictable and that feeling of not having complete control is to be expected.

[Jimmyt]

My experience of this so far is that the tactics remain far too powerful.

I've got experience from both ends of the pitch at both ends of the football spectrum.

At Macclesfield Town, my two central defenders would be beaten every time by ball over the top. Whilst the opposition strikers would have started their runs, my defenders would stand still, take a step in the wrong direction, then chase after them.

Total lack of any commonsense from the AI.

I ditched that game and now I'm playing as Man City. My forward line consists of Arshavin, Robinho and Aguero. I'm well aware that height might be an issue there, but that's not why I'm frustrated by them.

The fact is that three of the best players in the world are totally incapable of passing a football. They pass straight to the opposition time and again. I get the ball out wide, Shaun Wright-Phillips sends Robinho through, who gets to the lne, looks up, sees Arshavin, and Aguero in front of him, then opts to pass it to Rory Delap or whoever instead.

There should be some areas of the game where the players don't stick RIGIDLY to your tactics, because no matter where I've got a certain slider or something, the essential of things is that I want them to pass to players in the same shirt as them!

[Jimmyt]

Ah, but a lot of the fun derives from the realism in a sim, doesn't it? They're not two ends of a scale.

I can't see any way that FM can offer a really high level of input>output control that some people seem to want, without sacrificing the realism. As I say, it's just simulating a sport that's hugely unpredictable and that feeling of not having complete control is to be expected.

But it's NOT realistic.

I often wonder how much live football some players of this game ever avtually see.

Real managers don't have to tell central defenders exactly where to stand and exactly how to play to this extent. A central defender who has played 200 games already knows how to watch the flight of the ball and to not let the defender just run off. The fact you've set your defensive line to a little bit too high shouldn't come into it.

Players need to be micromanaged.

The manager doesn't give vastly detailed directions to players from the touchline.

[Nomis07]

But it's NOT realistic.

I often wonder how much live football some players of this game ever avtually see.

Real managers don't have to tell central defenders exactly where to stand and exactly how to play to this extent. A central defender who has played 200 games already knows how to watch the flight of the ball and to not let the defender just run off. The fact you've set your defensive line to a little bit too high shouldn't come into it.

Players need to be micromanaged.

The manager doesn't give vastly detailed directions to players from the touchline.

What's your suggestion for an alternative?

[Jimmyt]

Make it simpler.

Ditch the sliders. Keep player instructions down to the bare minimum of who they are marking etc.

Offer the option to let the assistant manager take over the individual player instructions (As it stands I can go on holiday, come back to see the assistant manager has won three games, and then not be able to ask him what he did differently.)

Make sure you can clearly see what effect the sliders have rather than force people to creat 'theories' on it.

But it's not my job to work out how to make the game work best. all I know is that right now, you can have the absolute best players in the world, but they will play like Sunday footballers with not a clue why.

[Nomis07]

Make sure you can clearly see what effect the sliders have rather than force people to creat 'theories' on it.

That's fair enough, the rest of that just sounded like a step backwards and giving us even less control over tactics than we currently have.

There should be some areas of the game where the players don't stick RIGIDLY to your tactics,

My problem with your quotes isn't the sentiment, but the reasoning. I've discussed it many tmes before, but what you appear to be asking for is the game to be programmed so that tactics work sometimes and ar eignored at other times. There's no way on earth that would ever work.

[Rupal]

Ah, but a lot of the fun derives from the realism in a sim, doesn't it? They're not two ends of a scale.

I can't see any way that FM can offer a really high level of input>output control that some people seem to want, without sacrificing the realism. As I say, it's just simulating a sport that's hugely unpredictable and that feeling of not having complete control is to be expected.

Yes but there is a trade off here. What's the point of having a high degree of realism if it begins to detract from the fun? Press conferences are a good example IMO. They are frankly little more than a repetitive chore. They may add realism but they certainly don't add anything to playability for me - indeed, they are basically just a pain in the posterior!

[Nomis07]

Press conferences are a bad example, they are a new feature and as with every new feature they will take time to perfect. 2D was roundly criticised on CM4, by 08 it had been perfected and the majority enjoyed it.

[RT--]

Yes but there is a trade off here. What's the point of having a high degree of realism if it begins to detract from the fun? Press conferences are a good example IMO. They are frankly little more than a repetitive chore. They may add realism but they certainly don't add anything to playability for me - indeed, they are basically just a pain in the posterior!

Well on press conferences, I'd be inclined to agree with you

[Jimmyt]

That's fair enough, the rest of that just sounded like a step backwards and giving us even less control over tactics than we currently have.

not really. Just a control over tactics that are more like real life. (I'd love to see a 'set piece' creation tool as well. That's reality and isn't in the game)

In real life, managers manage to get their instructions out to players who all speak different languages. There's no way they are being as detailed as this game wants you to be. A REAL life manager doesn't sit down with each member of his team before the game and give them a list of exact, precise instructions on 'mentality' etc.

Perhaps it would be a slight step backwards, but perhaps the game has gone too far that way anyway. The individual player instructions should be there to finesse the overall tactics, not make or break them and not cause players to just do totally idiotic things. Give the players some AI to make the right desicions. Not make them screw up because they have been told to stand higher up the pitch.

My problem with your quotes isn't the sentiment, but the reasoning. I've discussed it many tmes before, but what you appear to be asking for is the game to be programmed so that tactics work sometimes and ar eignored at other times. There's no way on earth that would ever work.

Of course it can work. The players should play broadly in the way you tell them but, for an extreme example, when Robinho has the ball at his feet in the six yard box, I don't want him thinking about what I said to him befre the game, I want his instincts to kick in and him make the right pass/shot.

Look at my point about the central defenders. It seemed to me that they were letting the strikers get past them time and again because they'd been told to push up. that's fine. But don't push up whilst the ball is sailing over your head and you're meant to be marking the striker who is now 10 yards goalside of you.

[Rupal]

Press conferences are a bad example, they are a new feature and as with every new feature they will take time to perfect. 2D was roundly criticised on CM4, by 08 it had been perfected and the majority enjoyed it.

I will await the new, exciting, perfect press conferences with bated breath....

[Nomis07]

I will await the new, exciting, perfect press conferences with bated breath....

So, you're not only saying the feature is crap, but you're rolling your eyes at it possibly taking a while to perfect. Don't mean to be rude, but with that attitude, your unlikely to ever be satisfied with the game, as it constantly changes.

Jimmt,

I've had this discussion time and again, i'm in the process of finding the most recent thread so as I can link it rather than cover old ground.

[Jimmyt]

Do the additional comments you can make in press conferences actually do anything?

[Stevicus]

Do the additional comments you can make in press conferences actually do anything?

You can swear your breasts off;)

[ChAnCeR]

Not sure why so many people are having issues with the game & tactics? I have got myself a cracking tactic that I have designed & scoring bucketloads. Just finished my 3rd season with Man City, finished with 156 goals for & 38 against. Only lost 4 games all season in the prem league, won fa & league cups, runner up in the Champions league & won supercup as won UEFA the season before.

Sorry for everyone who is having issues, but its a case of keep trying until you succeed. In my opinion great game & great patch.

Well done SI, not many people seem to say this enough!!

[Jimmyt]

'its a case of keep trying until you succeed'

Which is fine until you're bottom of the League by christmas, find a decent tactic eventually and then win three before it stops working.

I'd imagine that there are significantly more people having problems with it than who aren't.

[Rupal]

So, you're not only saying the feature is crap, but you're rolling your eyes at it possibly taking a while to perfect. Don't mean to be rude, but with that attitude, your unlikely to ever be satisfied with the game, as it constantly changes.

No, I'm just very doubtful about how exciting it's ever going to be, to be frank !

Unless you have loads and loads of alternatives to choose from, it's bound to become repetitive very quickly. There have been replies from SI to threads grumbling about these press conferences before pointing out the amount of work which would be involved to make the feature significantly more comprehensive. A few extra questions and replies wouldn't make very much difference IMO because we'd very rapidly get used to them and I don't reckon we're ever likely to get much more than that, if truth be known.

[Rupal]

Not sure why so many people are having issues with the game & tactics? I have got myself a cracking tactic that I have designed & scoring bucketloads. Just finished my 3rd season with Man City, finished with 156 goals for & 38 against. Only lost 4 games all season in the prem league, won fa & league cups, runner up in the Champions league & won supercup as won UEFA the season before.

Sorry for everyone who is having issues, but its a case of keep trying until you succeed. In my opinion great game & great patch.

Well done SI, not many people seem to say this enough!!

Hasn't some of your success been due to the fact that Man City are very rich and can get lots of extremely good players?

If you decide to manage a lower league club with no money and bad players, it's not so easy.

[Nomis07]

No, I'm just very doubtful about how exciting it's ever going to be, to be frank !

Unless you have loads and loads of alternatives to choose from, it's bound to become repetitive very quickly. There have been replies from SI to threads grumbling about these press conferences before pointing out the amount of work which would be involved to make the feature significantly more comprehensive. A few extra questions and replies wouldn't make very much difference IMO because we'd very rapidly get used to them and I don't reckon we're ever likely to get much more than that, if truth be known.

It's not a matter of making it more comprehensive, because, as you say, no matter how comprehensive it is it will get boring. Greater variation and a lesser frwquency would make it far more appealing IMO.

[Rupal]

It's not a matter of making it more comprehensive, because, as you say, no matter how comprehensive it is it will get boring. Greater variation and a lesser frwquency would make it far more appealing IMO.

That would be better - as it stands at the moment it's too much like a chore. I tend to end up saying as little as possible in them because half the time if you make any positive statement some wally in your team gets his knickers in a twist about it.

[AmA Deo]

Not sure why so many people are having issues with the game & tactics? I have got myself a cracking tactic that I have designed & scoring bucketloads. Just finished my 3rd season with Man City, finished with 156 goals for & 38 against. Only lost 4 games all season in the prem league, won fa & league cups, runner up in the Champions league & won supercup as won UEFA the season before.

Sorry for everyone who is having issues, but its a case of keep trying until you succeed. In my opinion great game & great patch.

Well done SI, not many people seem to say this enough!!

It's easy for you to say that. I want to enjoy this game as much as possible (by winning of course), but unfortunately I don't have hours and hours of time to experiment with tactics. Roughly I only have time in the weekends until November (!). I do, of course, experiment, but it's not fun playing this game without knowing what to do !! I feel like I only can manage to make a tactical set if I let me be inspired by online tactical guides.. :-/

[Jimmyt]

Hasn't some of your success been due to the fact that Man City are very rich and can get lots of extremely good players?

If you decide to manage a lower league club with no money and bad players, it's not so easy.

Read my posts. I'm currently managing as Man City but for some reason my attack, which contains Robinho, Aguero and Arshavin are incapable of passing to a blue shirt.

The players getting the very basics right shouldn't be relient on your tactics.

Robinho can't beat a man, he can't pass two yards and he keeps running away from passes.

I just went two games without a single shot on or off target. With Robinho and Aguero up front?

Come off it!

[Nomis07]

Jimmyt, hope this doesn't seem too lazy, but here's a thread with my position on what your were discussing earlier.

[Jimmyt]

H's right about the number of silly mistakes though. My tactical instructions shouldn't play any part in a player doing things that schoolkids can do.

[Jimmyt]

Jimmyt, hope this doesn't seem too lazy, but here's a thread with my position on what your were discussing earlier.

One quote from you on that thread sums up what I'm trying to say here.

'Conversion of chances, is dependent on player, but equally dependent on tactics.'

It shouldn't be.

Creating chances is from tctics, CONVERTING them should just be down to the player.

[Nomis07]

Of course, but in a similar vein, creation of chance to pass or tackle should be generated by tactics, completion should be down to the player. If we take it what you're saying, to the n'th degree, we would have a ganme that was skipping back and forth from tactics to player mentality and asking it to recognise situation in which the player should make decisions and ignore tactics.

[Rupal]

Read my posts. I'm currently managing as Man City but for some reason my attack, which contains Robinho, Aguero and Arshavin are incapable of passing to a blue shirt.

The players getting the very basics right shouldn't be relient on your tactics.

Robinho can't beat a man, he can't pass two yards and he keeps running away from passes.

I just went two games without a single shot on or off target. With Robinho and Aguero up front?

Come off it!

Well, I dunno. Maybe ChAnCeR has, indeed, got the tactics sussed out properly.

I agree that players ought to be able to do the basics even if your tactics aren't spot on. But an awful lot of goals in this game come from bad play rather than good anyway (simple missed interceptions and the like) so it's not that much of a surprise if they muck things up. It's because of the way the ME works, I should think.

[Nomis07]

A majority of goals in real life come from mistakes. How often do you see a really good team goal, that couldn't have been avoided?

[joshuam]

i actually lost 9 games on the trot right after the update. I was in playoff position with preston, by the time i had stopp ed losing, i was second bottom!

[Jimmyt]

Of course, but in a similar vein, creation of chance to pass or tackle should be generated by tactics, completion should be down to the player. If we take it what you're saying, to the n'th degree, we would have a ganme that was skipping back and forth from tactics to player mentality and asking it to recognise situation in which the player should make decisions and ignore tactics.

Or, have it more realistic, in that the tctics themselves are a broader idea of how you want to have the team play without all the micromanagement.

There's no need for the depth in the individual player instructions. No need at all. Because it ISN'T actually realistic.

In real life, youve got Robinho, you know he's an AMC/FC. So you tell him where to play and you tell other players how to get the ball to him.

Mark Hughes won't be telling him any of the bullcrap that these sliders are supposed to represent.

[Rupal]

A majority of goals in real life come from mistakes. How often do you see a really good team goal, that couldn't have been avoided?

Well it depends who you are watching, I suppose.

In the case of the side I watch (Rushden and Diamonds) I imagine that I see one about every four years or so (probably by the opposition). I'd think I could expect to see rather more if I watched Barcelona.

[Nomis07]

I'd think I could expect to see rather more if I watched Barcelona.

You may think that, but if it were the case pundits would be out of a job. Of course it happens sometimes, but MOTD is proof, IMO, that a majority of goals are the direct result of a mistake.

[Nomis07]

Mark Hughes won't be telling him any of the bullcrap that these sliders are supposed to represent.

Sorry, but you're making the tactics far too simple again. Plus the whole "manager x wouldn't have to say...." argument means nothing, most managers don't eat curly wurlys as they watch the match, but I can.

[HL7]

Sorry, but you're making the tactics far too simple again.

It was only the other day Gordon Strachan was saying the opposite of this! Explaining that tactics are in fact very simple and doesn't take a genius to sort them out. He might be a little ginger ***** but with his level of success in recent years i'd be inclined to think he is better qualified to say how simple it is.

[Rupal]

You may think that, but if it were the case pundits would be out of a job. Of course it happens sometimes, but MOTD is proof, IMO, that a majority of goals are the direct result of a mistake.

Well, all I can say is that I think that good players will make fewer mistakes than bad players and so if a team has a lot of good players it will make fewer mistakes than a team which has a lot of bad ones. If the opposition team has a lot of good players too they will also make fewer mistakes, so it ought to follow that the better the players are on both sides the more likely goals are to come from good play rather than bad.

Of course, you are basically right and a lot of goals at any level come from mistakes. However, I wonder how well the FM ME actually creates 'good' goals. I'd have thought it would be rather easier to program in the sort of stupid mistakes which Jimmyt was talking about.

[Nomis07]

It was only the other day Gordon Strachan was saying the opposite of this! Explaining that tactics are in fact very simple and doesn't take a genius to sort them out. He might be a little ginger ***** but with his level of success in recent years i'd be inclined to think he is better qualified to say how simple it is.

I'll assume that's a joke.

[HL7]

I'll assume that's a joke.

Ok, we'll take a manager with 10+ real experience and disregard everything he says because you like sliders and added complexity?

FM has football management wrong in a few areas. For example, a players positioning on the pitch is a training ground problem for a manager, not a solely a tactical one. Tactics should define your shape and style. Training should cover positioning and everything else. Clearly FM doesn't do this and lumps everything into the tactical interface, leaving training as little more than a means to boost your players fitness and attributes.

Bare in mind this is but one (very rushed) example.

[Nomis07]

Ok, we'll take a manager with 10+ real experience and disregard everything he says because you like sliders and added complexity?

I can't remember saying that. :confused: Any chance of a link to that post?

FWIW I dislike sliders as much as the next gamer, however i'm yet to see a viable alternative, or at least an alternative that doesn't involve taking the game backwards. Hope that clears things up, you must have misinterpreted what I was saying earlier, no biggy though.

[Ter]

Ok, we'll take a manager with 10+ real experience and disregard everything he says because you like sliders and added complexity?

FM has football management wrong in a few areas. For example, a players positioning on the pitch is a training ground problem for a manager, not a solely a tactical one. Tactics should define your shape and style. Training should cover positioning and everything else. Clearly FM doesn't do this and lumps everything into the tactical interface, leaving training as little more than a means to boost your players fitness and attributes.

Bare in mind this is but one (very rushed) example.

To be fair though, I could probably manage Celtic and win against most of the other teams in the SPL. As long as the players know where they are meant to be playing and you don't get them doing something stupid then you should be fine most of the time.