9.3.0 has ruined an already frustrating game for me.

[Nomis07]

To be fair though, I could probably manage Celtic and win against most of the other teams in the SPL. As long as the players know where they are meant to be playing and you don't get them doing something stupid then you should be fine most of the time.

Precisely. Here's a quote from Steve Coppell re: his start to football management.

"It was the blind leading the blind, I didn't know what I was doing. I just wasn't prepared for it. It was a very lonely job."

[pires29]

But it's NOT realistic.

I often wonder how much live football some players of this game ever avtually see.

Real managers don't have to tell central defenders exactly where to stand and exactly how to play to this extent. A central defender who has played 200 games already knows how to watch the flight of the ball and to not let the defender just run off. The fact you've set your defensive line to a little bit too high shouldn't come into it.

Players need to be micromanaged.

The manager doesn't give vastly detailed directions to players from the touchline.

I'm taking a stab in the dark at this but I imagine it would be incredibly hard for the programmers to code something like that into the game.

[Nomis07]

I'm taking a stab in the dark at this but I imagine it would be incredibly hard for the programmers to code something like that into the game.

That's my opinion of it too. Of course the suggestion is the ideal situation, i'd love to see a SI response to this.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

But it's NOT realistic.

I often wonder how much live football some players of this game ever avtually see.

I'm afraid i have to ask this question of the SI programmers.

Perhaps not a constructive comment on my behalf but when they are blinded to some pretty obvious flaws...

The best description of this game for me is disappointing rather than poor and has me hoping CM is as good as the reviews say it is. If nothing else than for some serious competition.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that due to most people working a high percentage of players are actually casual gamers who don't have time to do the number crunching required by FM09 to get the best out of their teams.

[Mitja]

i agree with Jimmyt here that player ability should count a little more but defenetly not by dumbing down tactics. what he's trying to say (if i'm not wrong) is that players should behave more like humans not robots, as weird as it sounds (having in mind we're talking about computor game)..we should influence our team's style with tactics not program it?

[Jimmyt]

Sorry, but you're making the tactics far too simple again. Plus the whole "manager x wouldn't have to say...." argument means nothing, most managers don't eat curly wurlys as they watch the match, but I can.

Yes it does. It means everything because it means that all the talk of how much more 'realistic' the game is, is absolute rubish, because REAL football management is NOTHING like this.

Make the tactics simpler, with fewer options, fewer sliders and various things that can conflict, and the game will be far more realistic.

[Jimmyt]

i agree with Jimmyt here that player ability should count a little more but defenetly not by dumbing down tactics. what he's trying to say (if i'm not wrong) is that players should behave more like humans not robots, as weird as it sounds (having in mind we're talking about computor game)..we should influence our team's style with tactics not program it?

It's not dumbing down to make it more realistic.

Even making it more text based would help people make sense of it. After all, real managers tell players what they want, not give them lists of numbers.

How about this then.

As it stands, if you set the sliders too far away from the player' abilities, natural preferences and the way they like to play the game, then you will get slaughtered.

How about having an option to have a pre-set set of player instructions which is based on their abilities and position. At least it would give you a starting point.

[HL7]

To be fair though, I could probably manage Celtic and win against most of the other teams in the SPL. As long as the players know where they are meant to be playing and you don't get them doing something stupid then you should be fine most of the time.

I don't doubt that. Most of us could also manage Man Utd and win the EPL as well. Depending on how you look at this you could argue that this actually supports my point. If the manager picks the right style and right shape for his side and has the right players then he will win more than he loses. That transfers to any team in any league around the world.

[HL7]

I can't remember saying that. :confused: Any chance of a link to that post?

FWIW I dislike sliders as much as the next gamer, however i'm yet to see a viable alternative, or at least an alternative that doesn't involve taking the game backwards. Hope that clears things up, you must have misinterpreted what I was saying earlier, no biggy though.

If you notice I never quoted you

So you must've thought that I meant you said something you didn't say when I didn't

Anyways, as I said earlier, I'd love to see SI look at what BGS are trying to do with CM and remove some tactical complexity and make training more prominent. Imo, SI had the perfect tactical interface with the wibble/wobble but dumped it after they got a match engine that could allow most people to make sense of it.

[Mitja]

It's not dumbing down to make it more realistic.

Even making it more text based would help people make sense of it. After all, real managers tell players what they want, not give them lists of numbers.

How about this then.

As it stands, if you set the sliders too far away from the player' abilities, natural preferences and the way they like to play the game, then you will get slaughtered.

How about having an option to have a pre-set set of player instructions which is based on their abilities and position. At least it would give you a starting point.

i agree with a lot you're saying, i just think instructions should be clearer and there should be more of them (mostly personal instructions).

SI already said they won't consider number of notches unfortunatly as it would ruin their system.

there are two active threads where these things are discussed:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=108695

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111618

[Jimmyt]

Which is my point. How can a strikeforce of Robinho and Aguero playing in front of a midfield inclding Kompany, SWP, Arshavin and Petrov manage to go two games without registering a single shot.

Which tiny, petty little slider do I have one notch too far left or right for it to be not working?

What tactic slider do I change to stop three of my defenders standing and watching as one opposition player scores unchallenged from the edge of the area.

Frankly, it's been becoming more and more bollocks.

[Jimmyt]

i agree with a lot you're saying, i just think instructions should be clearer and there should be more of them (mostly personal instructions).

SI already said they won't consider number of notches unfortunatly as it would ruin their system.

there are two active threads where these things are discussed:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=108695

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=111618

They need to either ditch the sliders completely for the personal instructions and make it text based, or allow you to ask your assistant to do them.

Individual player instructions should be the icing on the cake of your tctics. You shouldn't get dicked every game because you don't quite know how 'mentality' relates to 'tempo'.

[Ceching You Out]

To be fair though, I could probably manage Celtic and win against most of the other teams in the SPL. As long as the players know where they are meant to be playing and you don't get them doing something stupid then you should be fine most of the time.

Unless you try something drastic like a 1-8-1. Which segues nicely with my point: I think there are two real root issues with the current tactical system.

(1) The ME is too sensitive to the input from the sliders. Sometimes making the slightest tweak can "break" an otherwise brilliant tactic. Granted, there are occasions in real football where moving a CM back to DM can suddenly change a team's dynamic; but every change shouldn't feel this way. There should be a certain element of robustness to the ME that allows the dedicated player to fine tune a tactic to get that extra pence out of his players but still allows the lazy player to still get reasonable play from being in the ballpark.

(2) The tactics are extremely vague. I would recommend that there be an additional view from the tactics screen that has a dropdown menu. You would be able to choose items like "Positioning" which would display a brief description such as "This screen shows roughly where your players will be positioned based on your Formation, Mentality, Width, and Defensive Line." Below you would get an image that shows your players micro-positioned on a field from a certain instance of play -- whether the positioning is shown for a goal kick, kick-off, etc. wouldn't matter because it mainly serves as a point of reference for any tweaks you make. Similarly, you would get dropdown items such as "Defensive Duties" which shows closing down range, man-marking vs. zonal marking, and tackling. Give the user a graphical interface for these instructions and suddenly the view of what their tactics actually do becomes so much more lucid.

Personally, I still love FM09 and don't really have much of a legitimate gripe. But at the same time, I see half a dozen small interfaces like this which allow the user to truly enjoy the power of the underlying engine. I think of it this way -- it takes a true enthusiast to enjoy a Porsche engine tucked into a 1980s station wagon; but if you put it in the proper body and give it intuitive controls, even a bum off the street can take a whirl and enjoy it while the enthusiast will still be able to enjoy the intricacies.

[pires29]

Which is my point. How can a strikeforce of Robinho and Aguero playing in front of a midfield inclding Kompany, SWP, Arshavin and Petrov manage to go two games without registering a single shot.

Which tiny, petty little slider do I have one notch too far left or right for it to be not working?

What tactic slider do I change to stop three of my defenders standing and watching as one opposition player scores unchallenged from the edge of the area.

Frankly, it's been becoming more and more bollocks.

No the game isn't perfect, far from it but all the game does is take your data(tactics/players) which are calculated and then the result comes out in the form of a match in the ME. What you have been asking is for in earlier posts is for the game to have actual artificial intelligence. That isn't going to happen anytime soon.

[drambuie2]

To be fair though, I could probably manage Celtic and win against most of the other teams in the SPL. As long as the players know where they are meant to be playing and you don't get them doing something stupid then you should be fine most of the time.

For me though this is the crux of a lot of current issues - players don't seem to be able to win/play well in this game without the tactical instructions telling them to do everything correctly - there seems too little player 'intelligence' or adaptability in the ME. Good players seem to consistently get outplayed by worse ones because you have the sliders and ticks in the wrong place. The AI on the other hand seems to more often than not get great performances from its players.

I played a pre season game as Newcastle against some unknown foreign team - all with between 4 and 8 passing. Yet they were completing 10 of 12 , 18 of 20 etc passes. How? i watched the game, they weren't in lots of space, weren't all simple passes. Yet there completion rate equalled my players with 13,14,15 whatever passing.

[RT--]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but...

Isn't it possible that the importance of tactics needs to be slightly over-represented in FM, because of the difficulty/impossibility of representing other more complex and subtle parts of real-life management?

[Nomis07]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but...

Isn't it possible that the importance of tactics needs to be slightly over-represented in FM, because of the difficulty/impossibility of representing other more complex and subtle parts of real-life management?

Hmmmm, interesting theory. I'd certainly hope not, because that does seem like fun is being shunned, in order to recreate the perception of realism, even if what is done isn't realistic.

[RT--]

Well setting up your tactics and buying/selling/developing players is always going to be the core of the game, isn't it? They're arguably the things people enjoy most when they play a football management sim. In reality, day-to-day man management, communication, motivating players, press conferences and interviews... all these things (and more) are obviously hugely important, but either very difficult to model in a game or not as fun to actually carry out.

I also have a suspicion that people underestimate exactly how badly a team of very talented players could play without any tactical direction whatsoever, but that's a separate point.

[Nomis07]

In reality, day-to-day man management, communication, motivating players, press conferences and interviews... all these things (and more) are obviously hugely important, but either very difficult to model in a game or not as fun to actually carry out.

That's my major issue with the realism/fun debate and oft used "It's called Football Manager...." line. If we were to take this all as seriously as some people wanted and went for extreme simulation, we'd be asking for a game in which we had little influence in training because coaches would do it, Directors of Football who handled transfers, PR teams responsible for club stature etc etc etc.

[jayahr]

Well setting up your tactics and buying/selling/developing players is always going to be the core of the game, isn't it? They're arguably the things people enjoy most when they play a football management sim. In reality, day-to-day man management, communication, motivating players, press conferences and interviews... all these things (and more) are obviously hugely important, but either very difficult to model in a game or not as fun to actually carry out.

I also have a suspicion that people underestimate exactly how badly a team of very talented players could play without any tactical direction whatsoever, but that's a separate point.

Couldn't agree more with everything said in there.

Irl if your players don't trust you to be a true expert, it will all go down the drain inevitably.

[SCIAG]

Happy to report that we've already fixed that issue (on FML and Empire Total War)...

What about Vs and Us?

Great post Ceching You Out

My main gripe is that one of my main "weapons" from older FMs (tempo) is now useless. The passing slider seems to do what both sliders did. If passing is set to short, tempo will be slow regardless.

[peter-evo]

What about Vs and Us?

Great post Ceching You Out

My main gripe is that one of my main "weapons" from older FMs (tempo) is now useless. The passing slider seems to do what both sliders did. If passing is set to short, tempo will be slow regardless.

I am noticing this now. I tried to play a short passing game but at a decent tempo but my players still seemed to dally on the ball and took a while to pick a pass.

[chopper99]

Despite what I said in my opening post it seems I may have been a little hastey after all.

After this thread was started I got kind offers from both wwfan and rashidi, who were willing to look at my tactics to help me identify why they weren't working any more. Being stubborn, I decided that I wanted to have another go myself first. As a last resort I decided to take a step back, and rather than looking at why they had suddenly stopped working since 9.3.0 I looked into why they may have been flawed overall, trying to forget the fact that they worked very well in 9.2.0.

Without getting too tactical for this forum I'll just briefly outline the process I went through to get things working again. The first possible issue I noticed was with my target man settings. I had his supply set to head, in the hope that he'd flick balls on for my pacey skillful striker. But, for some reason, I also had him set to 'Hold up ball'. To me this was conflicting, he couldn't really flick the ball on and hold it up at the same time. Because I had more skillful strikers than I did when I first started this save I simply decided to stop using a target man altogether. I removed the 'hold up ball option' from the left hand striker and unticked 'use target man', but kept the rest of the strikers settings the same.

After that I decided I needed more width. I had two excellent young wingers and it was time they were getting more involved, so I upped my width slider two notches and changed the focus of my passing from 'Mixed' to 'Down both flanks'.

And that was it. Three simple changes made all the difference. My strikers started scoring again and were now getting good supply from my wingers who were suddenly much more effective. More suprisingly, the more attacking of my two MC's started playing much better, probably because he now had more space to work with due to the opposition having to focus on my wings more. After plummeting to 14th I dragged the team to an impressive 7th by the end of the season, which I was very peased with, even more so as I managed to figure it out myself (not that I don't appreciate the offers of help that I had).

I think some good points have been raised in this thread, it was quite difficult for me to identify why my tactics had suddenly stopped working and quite difficult to work out what changes I needed to make. Hopefully this will improve in future versions. But, in my case at least, it seems that my original tactic was flawed, and 9.3.0 exposed those flaws in a way that 9.2.0 had not.

Hopefully others who are suffering will stick with it and accept help when it's offered, because I myself am now enjoying 9.3.0 a lot.

[peter-evo]

Despite what I said in my opening post it seems I may have been a little hastey after all.

After this thread was started I got kind offers from both wwfan and rashidi, who were willing to look at my tactics to help me identify why they weren't working any more. Being stubborn, I decided that I wanted to have another go myself first. As a last resort I decided to take a step back, and rather than looking at why they had suddenly stopped working since 9.3.0 I looked into why they may have been flawed overall, trying to forget the fact that they worked very well in 9.2.0.

Without getting too tactical for this forum I'll just briefly outline the process I went through to get things working again. The first possible issue I noticed was with my target man settings. I had his supply set to head, in the hope that he'd flick balls on for my pacey skillful striker. But, for some reason, I also had him set to 'Hold up ball'. To me this was conflicting, he couldn't really flick the ball on and hold it up at the same time. Because I had more skillful strikers than I did when I first started this save I simply decided to stop using a target man altogether. I removed the 'hold up ball option' from the left hand striker and unticked 'use target man', but kept the rest of the strikers settings the same.

After that I decided I needed more width. I had two excellent young wingers and it was time they were getting more involved, so I upped my width slider two notches and changed the focus of my passing from 'Mixed' to 'Down both flanks'.

And that was it. Three simple changes made all the difference. My strikers started scoring again and were now getting good supply from my wingers who were suddenly much more effective. More suprisingly, the more attacking of my two MC's started playing much better, probably because he now had more space to work with due to the opposition having to focus on my wings more. After plummeting to 14th I dragged the team to an impressive 7th by the end of the season, which I was very peased with, even more so as I managed to figure it out myself (not that I don't appreciate the offers of help that I had).

I think some good points have been raised in this thread, it was quite difficult for me to identify why my tactics had suddenly stopped working and quite difficult to work out what changes I needed to make. Hopefully this will improve in future versions. But, in my case at least, it seems that my original tactic was flawed, and 9.3.0 exposed those flaws in a way that 9.2.0 had not.

Hopefully others who are suffering will stick with it and accept help when it's offered, because I myself am now enjoying 9.3.0 a lot.

Fantastic to hear Chopper

I have done a similar thing after expressing my frustration with some aspects of FM09 in my thread and now enjoy the game a lot more. I decided to have a good read through some guides and then used my logic to set up a tactic that has now improved my Marine team substantially. I simply give each of my players individual roles and that has led to them playing a lot better and I am seeing my team play how I want them to play.

Im now enjoying FM09 and I believe it will definitely keep me occupied until 2010 hits the shelves.

If you are struggling, take a step-back and look at why you are failing and that may well prove to be what improves your knowledge and improve your perception