Filter for male/female Staff?

[Judy Alvarez]

Hello i have a small question for the forum,

Why is there no female/male filter for the staff? The female/male Tag is already existing in the game but no ption to filter it. Maybe it is in the game but i dont see it, if not i would request it for the next game.

 

I would appreciate the help

 

 

Edited February 17 by Judy Alvarez

[jyny]

16 hours ago, Judy Alvarez said:

Why is there no female/male filter for the staff?

Do you mean when searching for staff? You can't search by sex, and I very much doubt it would be added even if requested as it seems a bit sexist. 

[turnip]

Maybe once SI implement female staff for other roles, I could see it working.

I can't really see the point while it's just Physiotherapists.

[Judy Alvarez]

Why is everything sexist? Its a normal thing. If i need to register myself, i need to choose male or female too. And the company can then filter how many are male or female. Its so normal and not sexist... and if anybody feels offended by just adding a searchfilter to the game for the "sex", just dont use it.

 

It's more than just Physiotherapists, way more.

[turnip]

I hadn't actually realised that there were female staff for other job roles.

Just eyeballing the lists, though, there's hardly a lot of women in the game as scouts, coaches or analysts (and I play with fake players). If it's more than 0.5%, I'd be surprised. 

[Judy Alvarez]

All good, i was just asking because it would be so easy to add this into the game.

[CAE82]

One of my best coaches is female (I'm using a 3rd party update so she may not appear on the original database).

SI are clearly a very progressive organisation; sexist football phrases like 'target man' and 'man marking' have been replaced by more inclusive phrases like 'target forward' and 'player marking' ahead of the introduction of female/women's football.

I would imagine a search filter as you suggest will be introduced in FM25 (obviously including a non-binary option as well as male/female)

[phnompenhandy]

Emma Hayes would not be impressed with the sexist ignorance on display here. The filter is in the pre-game editor; it ought to be in the game. I also use FMRTE for that facility.

[NineCloudNine]

6 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Emma Hayes would not be impressed with the sexist ignorance on display here. The filter is in the pre-game editor; it ought to be in the game. I also use FMRTE for that facility.

I agree with you, though in fact 'female' is not available as a filter in the pre-game editor. To get female staff you have to select 'is not' and 'male' for gender. Which is a bit weird.

[jyny]

12 hours ago, Judy Alvarez said:

Why is everything sexist?

Let me just clarify what I meant. If you have a filter for male and female staff, you are signaling out one sex over the other. For example, I want a female so and so or a male so and so. There are female staff in the game, but I don't go through the list of staff and choose who I want based on sex. I chose the ones with the best attributes. 

IRL you can't filter candidates between sex so adding it to the game would cause a lot of kick back, I think. It would be like adding a filter based on skin colour which would be unacceptable.  

[Smiggs]

I would guess that in game they have designed the game to be blind to gender so there is no need for a filter male/female as their effectiveness will be the same.

[turnip]

It's probably the opposite, to be honest, given how long SI have been developing the database.

I assume the first female people in the database were board members (Karren Brady and the like), so SI had to put in the 'male' and 'non-male' identifier (pretty easy; just batch-assign everyone 'male' and manually change the ones who aren't). Then as new people are added to the database, the researcher chooses the relevant flag. 

You do need the flag, because the game has to generate portraits for anyone who doesn't have a photo, and female staff members get assigned the 'female' options. 

 

I'd be interested to know if SI are exploring how to implement non-binary identification into the game, as that seems like something that'll be more of a mainstream thing in gaming over the next few years. And is also the right thing to do in general.

[CLS]

On 19/02/2024 at 20:06, turnip said:

It's probably the opposite, to be honest, given how long SI have been developing the database.

I assume the first female people in the database were board members (Karren Brady and the like), so SI had to put in the 'male' and 'non-male' identifier (pretty easy; just batch-assign everyone 'male' and manually change the ones who aren't). Then as new people are added to the database, the researcher chooses the relevant flag. 

You do need the flag, because the game has to generate portraits for anyone who doesn't have a photo, and female staff members get assigned the 'female' options. 

 

I'd be interested to know if SI are exploring how to implement non-binary identification into the game, as that seems like something that'll be more of a mainstream thing in gaming over the next few years. And is also the right thing to do in general.

I'm non-binary and would really like this. But I don't expect it to happen, because translation would make it a monumental task. English is relatively simple with the ability to use "they" pronouns instead of "he" or "she", but in other languages with more grammatical gender for every noun etc, it might be much more difficult.

[Meanonsunday]

On 18/02/2024 at 20:34, jyny said:

Let me just clarify what I meant. If you have a filter for male and female staff, you are signaling out one sex over the other. For example, I want a female so and so or a male so and so. There are female staff in the game, but I don't go through the list of staff and choose who I want based on sex. I chose the ones with the best attributes. 

IRL you can't filter candidates between sex so adding it to the game would cause a lot of kick back, I think. It would be like adding a filter based on skin colour which would be unacceptable.  

It's perhaps a minor point, but irl you can in fact select candidates based on sex in situations that would apply to staff of a football team.  You could select female candidates to a womens team on the basis that the players would be more comfortable with a woman (wouldn't work for all positions but imagine saying that women couldnt choose a female doctor, physio or trainer).  And for a mens team you'd be allowed to select women on the basis that they are under-represented in pretty much every position (the law specifically allows for favouring the under-represented sex).  I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that is what the law is in UK and EU.

[jyny]

6 hours ago, Meanonsunday said:

It's perhaps a minor point, but irl you can in fact select candidates based on sex in situations that would apply to staff of a football team.  You could select female candidates to a womens team on the basis that the players would be more comfortable with a woman (wouldn't work for all positions but imagine saying that women couldnt choose a female doctor, physio or trainer).  And for a mens team you'd be allowed to select women on the basis that they are under-represented in pretty much every position (the law specifically allows for favouring the under-represented sex).  I'm not saying its right or wrong, just that is what the law is in UK and EU.

Good points. I think when we are talking about doctors, trainers, etc of course you would want someone of the same sex. 

I didn't know that the law allows for favouring those who are underrepresented. I'm originally from the UK but emigrated to Japan over a decade ago, I had no idea that came into effect.

[MontyOnTheRun]

Why shouldn't we be allowed to filter out what sex we want? When I go to the doctor I can request if I want a female or male doctor. I am sure some footballers are also weary of what sex they want. Just imagine if the player got accidentally kicked in the groin during a match and had to be examined. Would you want a male or female poking around down there? SI already introduced "sexual orientation" in the game by letting some newgens come out as "openly gay", and that seems way more controversial than some innocent little filter.

[turnip]

There are already plenty of women physios working in men's football, and plenty of men physios working in women's football.

If you're a footballer and you just got punted in the balls, I'm not sure you care who's got the magic spray as long as someone's got THAT ****ING MAGIC SPRAY RIGHT NOW

[phd_angel]

Not sexist at all.  I currently try to hire as many female staff as possible, and it would be a nice challenge or goal to try to have a staff that is at least 50% female.

Thus, I'd like to have a staff filter for sex or gender (they are different):

- Sex is the biological marker at birth and has only two options (male or female)

- Gender is the self identification by the individual and has at least three options (male, female, non-binary, etc.).
 

[NineCloudNine]

On 23/02/2024 at 00:29, jyny said:

I didn't know that the law allows for favouring those who are underrepresented. I'm originally from the UK but emigrated to Japan over a decade ago, I had no idea that came into effect.

It’s a bit more complicated than that. An employer is allowed to use an under-represented characteristic to select a candidate from among those who are otherwise equally qualified for the job, and can encourage or enable applications from under-represented groups. All-female shortlists (for example) are illegal. The Govt of the time gave themselves an explicit exception to the law to allow for all-female Parliamentary candidate shortlists.

[DominicForza]

On 17/02/2024 at 11:20, Judy Alvarez said:

Hello i have a small question for the forum,

Why is there no female/male filter for the staff? The female/male Tag is already existing in the game but no ption to filter it. Maybe it is in the game but i dont see it, if not i would request it for the next game.

 

I would appreciate the help

 

 

There are some female short lists on FM24 Steam Workshop that you can load into your game. 

 

[Junkhead]

On 26/02/2024 at 11:03, NineCloudNine said:

It’s a bit more complicated than that. An employer is allowed to use an under-represented characteristic to select a candidate from among those who are otherwise equally qualified for the job, and can encourage or enable applications from under-represented groups. All-female shortlists (for example) are illegal. The Govt of the time gave themselves an explicit exception to the law to allow for all-female Parliamentary candidate shortlists.

There are a few other jobs which are exempt, for example bra-fitters

[CLS]

1 hour ago, Junkhead said:

There are a few other jobs which are exempt, for example bra-fitters

Yep. Legally, direct discrimination has to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. It's fine e.g. to only consider women to provide intimate care to other women, or to only consider a Black actor to play the role of Malcom X, or to require that a Preist be a practicing Christian. Football physios would be an interesting case. I think you could definitely e.g. argue that it's legitimate to want woman physios for a women's football team, especially because sadly it's a statistical near-certainty that some number of women in every squad will have been sexually assaulted by men and may carry trauma around that.

[Wolphox]

Just would like to point out that if anyone uses NEWGAN manager to add AI generated faces to newgens for realism, this in-game filter under staff search would have been extremely useful this year. Without this filter, you end up having to generate male-presenting faces for all staff regardless of gender (unless you've got hours to burn manually filtering the staff). I absolutely hope it's added when they introduce women's leagues because this filter will be essential for player search too with this tool.

I don't buy the argument that adding a simple filter like this is inherently sexist, though people may seek to do weird things with it in their fantasy save. But there are real practical applications for it.