One of the biggest problem I have with this game

[DarJ]

 

The team you need to pay attention to is the red team and the player you need to pay attention to is the right back no 3. 

My question is why on earth would he leave his position to move to the centre of the pitch to challenge for a header when he has a player to keep an eye on and more importantly I have 2 centrebacks there against the 1 striker? obviously we concede a goal because the player he left free got the ball and played the pass forward which led to a goal. 

You see things like this a lot in FM, for example when playing with 3 at the back and the middle defender you have on cover decides its a good idea to step up to the DM position to win a ball when you have a DM already there or when you right centre back decides to go to the left to win a ball when you already have your left centre back in a good position to deal with the ball,

[Libertine13]

Looks to me like he's closed the winger down, then got drawn into following the long ball and then he's closed the winger down again after his team mate has won the header. Without knowing his decision making attribute amongst others it's hard to say it's unusual behaviour for a player.

[XaW]

I agree he made a poor decision in this example, but it could also be a mistake due to him making the wrong choice. Since we have very little knowledge of your tactic and the player, it can't be ruled out. That said, this is a prime example of what I wish people would report as potential bugs in the ME (before that part of the forum was closed for the version, of course). Because it might be an error in the ME, but it could also be the player who made a mistake. Personal opinion, if the player made a mistake, it should be reflected in the game somehow (perhaps assistant feedback or something) to make it easier for us as managers to know.

[DarJ]

 

8 minutes ago, XaW said:

I agree he made a poor decision in this example

I would agree with this if it happened once in a while but the gif above is from the next game and you can see the same on the left but it didn't result in an opportunity for the AI in this one.

10 minutes ago, XaW said:

this is a prime example of what I wish people would report as potential bugs in the ME

I agree with this and I've not really played FM23 that much this year. I think I've played only 4 seasons in total including the beta period 

[kayyuenchinup]

Have you use any opposition instruction on their ST? Or apply the personal instruction the right back (close down more)?

Looks like he is stepping forward to close down the ST.  

I made a similar post but do not receive solution. 3 at the back is worse, one of the left, right CD always leave their positions and lead to two CD marking the ST, giving space to AML or AMR to score.  

I tried to use mark specific players e.g.

left CD on their AMR

Center CD on their ST

Right CD on their AMR

FM on their AMC

They would stick to the specific players tighter, not following them the whole pitch though.  However, the defensive line would be very high, they almost start marking them near the halfway line.  Also, if their player is quick, once they play a through ball, you can see the CD chasing him back all the way back to the final third.    

 

[DarJ]

2 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

Have you use any opposition instruction on their ST? Or apply the personal instruction the right back (close down more)?

I don't have any of that

[kayyuenchinup]

I have tried again 3 at the back against 4231, with no specific player marking and no opposition instructions, except shown weaker foot on wingers, wing back and full back plus only close down on their AMC

I am not sure if it's the weaker opposite side but it seems to work well, all CDs maintain the zonal marking and no stepping out. 

[Rashidi]

Gotta have more information. I have been playing 3 at the back for a while now and only switched to other systems out of boredom. And I have to add, that hasn’t happened as far as I remember and if it were to happen I would be livid. I do know why that could happen.

I usually have the defender with the best mentals and physical attributes playing in the centre. If he has good decisions, anticipation, jumping reach concentration and decisions then it should not happen. If he has all these and it happened I would report it as a bug.

[Daniel Evensen]

As others have said, it might be a match engine error — but, then again, it also might be a player who has certain attribute weaknesses, or even something as simple as being inconsistent or disliking big matches.

You've got to be careful with this kind of stuff.  Football Manager is more complex than you think.  There are a lot of different variables moving at the same time, and we can't really come to a conclusion about the match engine based on a single highlight with no other context.

[Draakon]

On 08/05/2023 at 14:50, XaW said:

I agree he made a poor decision in this example, but it could also be a mistake due to him making the wrong choice. Since we have very little knowledge of your tactic and the player, it can't be ruled out. That said, this is a prime example of what I wish people would report as potential bugs in the ME (before that part of the forum was closed for the version, of course). Because it might be an error in the ME, but it could also be the player who made a mistake. Personal opinion, if the player made a mistake, it should be reflected in the game somehow (perhaps assistant feedback or something) to make it easier for us as managers to know.

I'm perfectly happy with explanation that players make mistakes, but part of me wants me to be those mistakes represented in player rating or assistant feedback or by performance analyst.

Perfect example is that you can count some sort of mistakes (like lost tackle, lost header, missed interception, poor pass) in the match and it's more evident, but other shortcomings are not. For example if you concede because defender's positioning wasn't the best when opponents attacking move unfolded. Or he was just too slow, or hesitated to make a tackle. At the moment ME rating system punishes players for certain mistakes, but overlooks others. Lost challenges are counted, but wrong decision (not making a challenge) is overlooked.

If a defender loses a lot of headers, it's reflected in his match rating, but if you at least challenge for a header and bother attacker enough his headers are far less dangerous. However, leaving an attacker unmarked and allowing a free header doesn't reflect in statistics, but it's a far more serious crime on the pitch.

It makes sense in some way - you can't describe 100% of the football match in numbers and a lot of it remains for the manager to see and intercept, but on the other hand if you manage a big club that has a lot of backroom staff, pretty much responsible for providing all sorts of analysis you'd expect them to come up with data like "hey, we've conceded five chances in the last three games because our centre-back X is too slow and we play with a high defensive line" or "our fullback Y fails in one-on-one situations against technical wingers, you should changes his PI-s"

Edited May 15, 2023 by Draakon

[Daniel Evensen]

4 hours ago, Draakon said:

It makes sense in some way - you can't describe 100% of the football match in numbers and a lot of it remains for the manager to see and intercept, but on the other hand if you manage a big club that has a lot of backroom staff, pretty much responsible for providing all sorts of analysis you'd expect them to come up with data like "hey, we've conceded five chances in the last three games because our centre-back X is too slow and we play with a high defensive line" or "our fullback Y fails in one-on-one situations against technical wingers, you should changes his PI-s"

I'm 100% with you on this point.  It would be great if my data people could tell me something along these lines.

Unfortunately, most of the information I get from the data center is only marginally useful.  I feel like the seeds have been planted for a great system, but that it's just not quite there yet.

[Sunstrikuuu]

I'll also say: if you watch matches in full detail, weird player movements happen so frequently that it requires a spreadsheet and a second screen to keep track of them for a bug report.  In my brief time with FM23, players moved so oddly and robotically so often that I couldn't actually track them all.  I had to watch individual players, positions and units rather than the whole team, and even keeping it confined to 'the right midfielder in a 3, the right back and the right AM' I'd see fifteen or twenty moments a game on Comprehensive highlights where a player started closing down someone on the other side of the pitch, or marked the wrong side of a player, or stood in place while their man did something else.  Sometimes those are tactical or personal things and you can change them, like swapping a defensive fullback in for an attacking one to negate a winger or changing a player role to something more aggressive.  But often they're just so weird and illogical that it's difficult to say they're caused by tactics at all; they just happen, infuriatingly.

[Left right out]

Coaching my son's U8 team, this behavior seems pretty normal.

[DarJ]

3 hours ago, Left right out said:

Coaching my son's U8 team, this behavior seems pretty normal.

But I’m not managing a U8 team. I remember the first football game I played around that age. I was a center back but I was running all over the pitch and it’s no surprise we lost the game 10-0( thankfully it was a friendly) but by the second game I already learnt my position and what I was supposed to do and we went unbeaten in the tournament.

The players I’m managing are semi pro players so they should know not to do that 

 

[wazzaflow10]

On 08/05/2023 at 07:12, DarJ said:

 

The team you need to pay attention to is the red team and the player you need to pay attention to is the right back no 3. 

My question is why on earth would he leave his position to move to the centre of the pitch to challenge for a header when he has a player to keep an eye on and more importantly I have 2 centrebacks there against the 1 striker? obviously we concede a goal because the player he left free got the ball and played the pass forward which led to a goal. 

You see things like this a lot in FM, for example when playing with 3 at the back and the middle defender you have on cover decides its a good idea to step up to the DM position to win a ball when you have a DM already there or when you right centre back decides to go to the left to win a ball when you already have your left centre back in a good position to deal with the ball,

Things like these make it hard for me to get into the game anymore. I took a long, long absence from playing the game just out of frustration of watching away teams get nerfed and top levels players forgetting basic skills. Just tried playing a game last night. The thing that made just turn it off and really just not want to play again was watching my right back close a player down after a cleared corner but then immediately retreating to his right back position letting the opposition walk right in on goal since every other player on my team decided it was prudent to just ignore the man with the ball.

There's no reason for that and I can't believe SI aren't aware of it because it happens constantly. There's too many of these out of position/wacky decision "mistakes". Maybe I'll try again next year maybe not. But the last 2 years I've been completely unable to get into any save due to some of these glaring errors in logic.

[dzek]

 

Another example here with 4 at the back. This is very disgusting! Did you find any solution to this?

 

The rest of the video is conceding goal obviously…

Edited May 29, 2023 by dzek

[kayyuenchinup]

3 小时前, dzek说:

 

Another example here with 4 at the back. This is very disgusting! Did you find any solution to this?

 

The rest of the video is conceding goal obviously…

Can you try with no settings like team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions to see which trigger this?

[kayyuenchinup]

I am trying to achieve Zonal marking by setting opposition instructions - never tight mark and close down on opponent ST, AMC, AML AMR or ML MR.  That way the defender would not be stepping out that often.  

[dzek]

10 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

Can you try with no settings like team instructions, player instructions and opposition instructions to see which trigger this?

5 hours ago, kayyuenchinup said:

I am trying to achieve Zonal marking by setting opposition instructions - never tight mark and close down on opponent ST, AMC, AML AMR or ML MR.  That way the defender would not be stepping out that often.  

Brother, in that match I didn't use any opposition instructions or mark tighter. In my TIs I have Trigger Press in "Much More Often" and on my full backs’ PIs I have "Close Down Less", but none of that explains this behaviour. Also, my full backs’ decision is 13 which I think is a very good number.

 

If you can see clearly my DR left his position when he had a player to watch to come into my DCL's position(almost on the other side of my defence) to chase a header that was clear for my DCL player

Edited May 30, 2023 by dzek

[kayyuenchinup]

Yes I can understand the frustration.  I have been trying different marking method and r -watched the same match many times to find out what is wrong.  

Maybe the "trigger press" much more often caused this behaviour?  

[dzek]

If trigger press on much more often caused this behaviour then it would happen with every player at least most of them.

Its disgusting to try to build a system and when everything work like they should you see and you concede goal like this..

I have many more videos when my defenders do stuff like this and i don't know what to say..

Edited May 30, 2023 by dzek

[dzek]

Look this one. (Sorry for bad quality)

[dzek]

What about this one?? My GK forget that he is a GK actually.

[dzek]

Watch for my defense behaviors. I didn't use any Drop Off More or Step Up more.. and I'm really sure that has nothing to do with Attributes of my players etc.

 

 

 

There are many examples of these behaviors in the game. We concede goals like this one and we cannot do anything about this.

[wazzaflow10]

2 hours ago, dzek said:

Watch for my defense behaviors. I didn't use any Drop Off More or Step Up more.. and I'm really sure that has nothing to do with Attributes of my players etc.

 

 

 

There are many examples of these behaviors in the game. We concede goals like this one and we cannot do anything about this.

This one you got overloaded and caught in no man's land on the right hand side after a few of your attacking players lost focus. I don't see much wrong here from a match engine perspective. Definitely frustrating but you can't expect perfection in defense.  

[dzek]

3 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

This one you got overloaded and caught in no man's land on the right hand side after a few of your attacking players lost focus. I don't see much wrong here from a match engine perspective. Definitely frustrating but you can't expect perfection in defense.  

It's okay for players to make mistakes but this behavior of my defense doesn't feel like defense in general. How can the two downs cover the offside and the other two see the guy with the ball and do absolutely nothing? They neither pressed for the ball, closed off the space for the pass nor returned in time to fill the gap left.

Also the centre back should have held his line and followed the more forward player since my midfielder is already there to press.

I've seen a lot of weird/childish mistakes happen in defence including the goalkeeper.

[wazzaflow10]

1 hour ago, dzek said:

It's okay for players to make mistakes but this behavior of my defense doesn't feel like defense in general. How can the two downs cover the offside and the other two see the guy with the ball and do absolutely nothing? They neither pressed for the ball, closed off the space for the pass nor returned in time to fill the gap left.

Also the centre back should have held his line and followed the more forward player since my midfielder is already there to press.

I've seen a lot of weird/childish mistakes happen in defence including the goalkeeper.

Think it has more to do with you were outnumbered and your defense didn't handle it well. Part of the game. I don't disagree that there are many instances where defense looks shambolic. I had an instance where my left back dribbled into my own net! I don't think this was anything more than a momentary defensive lapse.  edit: Your other examples are definitely more compelling evidence of an issue. 

Your centerback stepped up initially to pressure the eventual goal scorer. He was playing in the channel between your midfield and defensive line. Got the ball and ran wide and dragged your players with him. Your centerback got caught out after the initial press there. It's easy to see he should have dropped off from an overhead view because the right side of your defense ran with their marks in behind. But your centerback probably has his back to them so he doesn't see that he needs to drop off. Especially since your left side seemed to be pressing or engaging an offside trap. That's the inherent risk of pressing higher up the pitch, you're going to leave space in behind if you do not win the ball or get dragged out of position. 

The only issue I see is if you're playing here on defensive or lower with low LOE and low pressing intensity and close down never on that particular player. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by wazzaflow10

[SimonHoddle]

I think a lot of these issues come from a poor graphical representation of the situation at hand. Like you say @wazzaflow10, LBs have been seen to do the most ridiculous things. All defenders make absurd mistakes in this game. The ME is trying to say something in your defence isn’t properly aligned but the way it’s represented on screen is ludicrous and looks the opposite of real life.

I think suggesting that a CB has a back to play so can’t see a developing situation is crediting too much granular detail to the ME tbh.

IMO once again this is a failure of communication from SI. By not letting us know where the ME limits are, what outputs happen after various inputs, how defensive fragility is represented etc etc, gamers will (and are) getting very frustrated.

Ofc the ME and graphics (which are worse than 7 years ago) are limited, no blame there. But let your customers know so when a LB dribbles into his own net we understand the WHY of the concept 

 

[Defensive]

Had this issue at first, then made a couple of changes and it stopped. Dont know which of them did it for me but its definetely your tactics. I love FM23, finally defending works for me.

[wazzaflow10]

3 hours ago, SimonHoddle said:

I think a lot of these issues come from a poor graphical representation of the situation at hand. Like you say @wazzaflow10, LBs have been seen to do the most ridiculous things. All defenders make absurd mistakes in this game. The ME is trying to say something in your defence isn’t properly aligned but the way it’s represented on screen is ludicrous and looks the opposite of real life.

I think suggesting that a CB has a back to play so can’t see a developing situation is crediting too much granular detail to the ME tbh.

IMO once again this is a failure of communication from SI. By not letting us know where the ME limits are, what outputs happen after various inputs, how defensive fragility is represented etc etc, gamers will (and are) getting very frustrated.

Ofc the ME and graphics (which are worse than 7 years ago) are limited, no blame there. But let your customers know so when a LB dribbles into his own net we understand the WHY of the concept 

 

For sure there's issues with how many situations get represented or at least described in the match text. It would be incredibly helpful in a situation like this to say "team A has broken the offside trap/press!" or "CB was caught pressing too high up the pitch" or "his CB partner and RB played everyone onside". I know it's a limited space and kind of an hold over from the CM days but its also an opportunity to tell us what's happening under the hood sometimes.

I often boot up fm 2010 and I find that to be much more believable in most situations. Yes there's the odd "why are you heading the ball?" moment and corner kicks are probably too overpowered but I can't think of a time where my right back run across the pitch to deal with a ball my left center back or left back can simply collect. Here I think everyone has experienced that at least once FM23. I can't imagine the monumental task to debug this match engine for something like that. I do wish they'd focus on cleaning up some of the more annoying ME habits instead of creating secondary features. 

 

[Oliver Roland]

19 hours ago, dzek said:

What about this one?? My GK forget that he is a GK actually.

This happens a lot but try to watch this in 3D, it should look quite normal...

[sdx15]

3 hours ago, Oliver Roland said:

This happens a lot but try to watch this in 3D, it should look quite normal...

That looks very normal in 2D, too. Goalie went to collect a (low?) cross, but it was blocked and directed into the goal by the defender. Unlucky but very believable. Stuff like this does happen IRL.

[sdx15]

11 minutes ago, fraudiola said:

the commentary says it was a deliberate chip from the attacker. 

Hm, didn't look at the commentary as the 2D animation does look like a deflection rather than a chipshot. Now I'd really like to see the 3D representation.

[dzek]

18 hours ago, wazzaflow10 said:

Think it has more to do with you were outnumbered and your defense didn't handle it well. Part of the game. I don't disagree that there are many instances where defense looks shambolic. I had an instance where my left back dribbled into my own net! I don't think this was anything more than a momentary defensive lapse.  edit: Your other examples are definitely more compelling evidence of an issue. 

Your centerback stepped up initially to pressure the eventual goal scorer. He was playing in the channel between your midfield and defensive line. Got the ball and ran wide and dragged your players with him. Your centerback got caught out after the initial press there. It's easy to see he should have dropped off from an overhead view because the right side of your defense ran with their marks in behind. But your centerback probably has his back to them so he doesn't see that he needs to drop off. Especially since your left side seemed to be pressing or engaging an offside trap. That's the inherent risk of pressing higher up the pitch, you're going to leave space in behind if you do not win the ball or get dragged out of position. 

The only issue I see is if you're playing here on defensive or lower with low LOE and low pressing intensity and close down never on that particular player. 

If you look clearly my DL/DCL did step up(without step up more instruction set btw) and in the end it did nothing there. It just sat there for no reason at all. If you get caught out of position irl you don't stick there and do nothing. He could have at least tried to cut the passing lanes or delayed start dropping deeper to close the gap but nothing at all.

Another approach here is like the offensive phases of the team. Let's say we set some In Possession instructions for our players to follow, but the game never guarantees that our players will only do those on matches in the opposing third. The same could happen on defensive phases too but not. That's not the case.

12 hours ago, Defensive said:

Had this issue at first, then made a couple of changes and it stopped. Dont know which of them did it for me but its definetely your tactics. I love FM23, finally defending works for me.

Please read again your answer and you will find another issue of this game. You don't know which setting fix this problem in your defence.

And so with your saying i have to experiment with different kind of settings and combinations until i fix my problem without even know what I'm doing. Not.

8 hours ago, Oliver Roland said:

This happens a lot but try to watch this in 3D, it should look quite normal...

I do like more 2D representation of the match but with this approach i will have to change every time from 2D to 3D and vice versa to watch which is more normal representation of the highlight. Another issue and this makes UX more complicate and not enjoyable for the users.

5 hours ago, sdx15 said:

That looks very normal in 2D, too. Goalie went to collect a (low?) cross, but it was blocked and directed into the goal by the defender. Unlucky but very believable. Stuff like this does happen IRL.

If it sometimes happened i would accept that but i think its happening every time.

[Oliver Roland]

17 minutes ago, dzek said:

do like more 2D representation of the match but with this approach i will have to change every time from 2D to 3D and vice versa to watch which is more normal representation of the highlight. Another issue and this makes UX more complicate and not enjoyable for the users.

6 hours ago, sdx15 said:

I am hardcore fan od 2d! By accident I found out that in 3D gk doesn't move like in 2D. Anyway I agree it Is bad...

[wazzaflow10]

53 minutes ago, dzek said:

If you look clearly my DL/DCL did step up(without step up more instruction set btw) and in the end it did nothing there. It just sat there for no reason at all. If you get caught out of position irl you don't stick there and do nothing. He could have at least tried to cut the passing lanes or delayed start dropping deeper to close the gap but nothing at all.

Another approach here is like the offensive phases of the team. Let's say we set some In Possession instructions for our players to follow, but the game never guarantees that our players will only do those on matches in the opposing third. The same could happen on defensive phases too but not. That's not the case.

Please read again your answer and you will find another issue of this game. You don't know which setting fix this problem in your defence.

And so with your saying i have to experiment with different kind of settings and combinations until i fix my problem without even know what I'm doing. Not.

I do like more 2D representation of the match but with this approach i will have to change every time from 2D to 3D and vice versa to watch which is more normal representation of the highlight. Another issue and this makes UX more complicate and not enjoyable for the users.

If it sometimes happened i would accept that but i think its happening every time.

You can see Camavigna close down and not recover or do much of anything in the way of cutting off passing lanes and lose track of a runner here. Sometimes you just get lost in defence. 

Edited June 1, 2023 by wazzaflow10

[dzek]

44 minutes ago, wazzaflow10 said:

You can see Camavigna close down and not recover or do much of anything in the way of cutting off passing lanes and lose track of a runner here. Sometimes you just get lost in defence. 

On this highlight just look Rudiger who is more appropriate for my situation. He stepped up to close down Haaland and then he tried his best to cover the gap behind again. Camavinga in that phase of the game was in DM position which i didn't mention any issue with DM or MC positions, exactly the opposite, my MC in the gif try to press or/and cut the passing lane to the ball carrier as he should. Don't forget that we speak about my defensive line which whatever happens they have to run every where and stop/block any chance by opponents. I understand what you are trying to tell me because i was playing central defender in a 2nd division's local team for 9 years.

 

PS Next time use Man United highlights please and not from our rivals 

Edited June 1, 2023 by dzek

[wazzaflow10]

6 minutes ago, dzek said:

On this highlight just look Rudiger who is more appropriate for my situation. He stepped up to close down Haaland and then he tried his best to cover the gap behind again. Camavinga in that phase of the game was in DM position which i didn't mention any issue with DM or MC positions, exactly the opposite, my MC in the gif try to press or/and cut the passing lane to the ball carrier as he should. Don't forget that we speak about my defensive line which whatever happens they have to run every where and stop/block any chance by opponents. I understand what you are trying to tell me because i was playing central defender in a 2nd division's local team for 9 years.

 

PS Next time use Man United highlights please and not from our rivals 

I'm an equal opportunity highlighter  . 

[Defensive]

Am 30.5.2023 um 18:41 schrieb fraudiola:

similar things have been happening for so many FMs regardless of pressing intensity, mentality, attributes etc. 

similar things have been happening in the PL for so many seasons regardless of pressing intensity, mentality, attributes etc.

 

What you want would be completely unrealistic. A perfect match in which even strong defenders never make the most stupid mistakes in the world. I dont want such an unrealistic game.

[Draakon]

Commentary often describes what actually is prevented on the pitch.

For example commentary says that "player X crosses for the far post" but in reality the cross is blocked by full-back and it goes for a corner. I you read commentary it makes you believe that the cross was actually delivered to that area. Instead, it was mere intention that was prevented by arriving defender. I believe the same goes for the chip in the video. Commentary says it was a chip, the attacker actually tried to pull it off, but instead it got deflected in.

 

I believe we have very different grievances about the game here.

One is that player should not do stupid mistakes and illogical decisions. Well, in fact they do and in real life it happens on the highest level as well. Perhaps not so frequently, but sometimes "too frequently" is also just a matter of perspective. If you sit in front of your PC and play through the whole season in one weekend you see a lot of stuff in two days that seem too frequent. But for the whole season it's actually spread out in real life and if you'd make a highlight reel of some football league now when the season is over (in June) you'd see a lot of stupid goals there as well.

The other is that the game doesn't give feedback about those mistakes. Yes, the players are imperfect. They make mistakes. Obviously if your decision attribute is 10 out of 20, you're bound to make some judgment errors and not to follow instructions 100% through 90 minutes of football. But it should be somewhat more evident to make it clearer for the manager if he can/should do something about player instructions or is it just the quality of the player that has let him down.

My personal take as a football manager in FM is to seek answer to a question: "did I fail as a manager or not?". If my team plays well, creates chances, but in the end loses because of a clear individual mistake or poor finishing, then there's nothing wrong with tactics. Perhaps with squad selection, but not with tactics. No need to rush with changes. But it's more complex when we're shut down well in attack and the other team's game plan seems to work better. Then it's tactical and I need to know what to do. Sadly - no assistant manager or data analyst provides me with decent information what to do.

[Defensive]

Am 8.5.2023 um 17:48 schrieb DarJ:

I don't have any of that

That will be the problem. FM23 is very complex and sometimes you have to mix different things and only one combination finally works. But it does. Feeling sorry for the people who dont find the tactical solution because i just dont have these problems above anymore and im having so much fun with the game.:-) My defence is working great, my players (who are not great generally) dont make any stupid out of position errors and so on. Maybe im a tactical genius but i dont think so, you just have to try enough.