[FM42] A brave new world - Historical divergence

[Golden Gordon]

I'm in Australia and have also messed around with alternate history scenarios. I'd be happy to help out if I can.

[Wolf_pd]

I have loaded my HD file into the FM24 editor tonight. No issue to report, except that I do need to do some cleaning up for the new items in the game. I am running a test with the FM24 file before cleanup in the game to see if there are any crashes (various have been reported for mainly competition files) and it has run smoothly into 2026 until now.

There are a few challenges though as nation short names can't be edited in the FM24 editor at the moment. That's an issue for this project..... I can obviously edit and test with the old nation names, but it's not pretty.

[Wolf_pd]

Before anyone thinks this is going to be an 18 year project, it is just 24 reversed

[Vakama2619]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Before anyone thinks this is going to be an 18 year project, it is just 24 reversed

Heres me who missed that entire reference last year

[Wolf_pd]

5 hours ago, Vakama2619 said:

Heres me who missed that entire reference last year

No, I only changed it from to 42 yesterday. You didn't miss anything

[Jorgen]

I think he means that before yesterday 23 was 32

[Wolf_pd]

33 minutes ago, Jorgen said:

I think he means that before yesterday 23 was 32

Lol, that is a coincidence you thought of, not me

42 is just the perfect number, so that's why I changed it.

[Jorgen]

2 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Lol, that is a coincidence you thought of, not me

42 is just the perfect number, so that's why I changed it.

😊😊

[Wolf_pd]

While working through the Iron Curtain, I am happy to see I am having all kind of new ideas for this project.

Europe and Asia are slowly taking shape, although I need to finalize and work all intertwined history stuff. Some of the proposed football competitions in Europe are getting a place, so the European Cup might turn up earlier than the 50s. I am not going to split Europe like I did with the Americas though. The split in Asia as it is now, I have some ideas for that, but it depends on how many nations in which regions I end up. Oceania planningwise looks to be solid, but will get a major twist where I need some changes to the editor for (yeah, I know, unlikely). There is one thing in the editor I am thinking of if it would work, but it depends how FM25 works with women football and nations/countries and stuff.

 

[Fire0Fart]

56 minutes ago, Wolf_pd said:

While working through the Iron Curtain, I am happy to see I am having all kind of new ideas for this project.

Europe and Asia are slowly taking shape, although I need to finalize and work all intertwined history stuff. Some of the proposed football competitions in Europe are getting a place, so the European Cup might turn up earlier than the 50s. I am not going to split Europe like I did with the Americas though. The split in Asia as it is now, I have some ideas for that, but it depends on how many nations in which regions I end up. Oceania planningwise looks to be solid, but will get a major twist where I need some changes to the editor for (yeah, I know, unlikely). There is one thing in the editor I am thinking of if it would work, but it depends how FM25 works with women football and nations/countries and stuff.

 

What do you mean by split exactly? I think I understand but if you would how would you split Europe? And asia into east and west confederations?

[Wolf_pd]

On 22/11/2023 at 13:45, Fire0Fart said:

What do you mean by split exactly? I think I understand but if you would how would you split Europe? And asia into east and west confederations?

I split up the American continental club cups into level 1 which is all over the Americas, while at level 2 is regional.

In Europe every European continental club cup will be played by each European nation.

In Asia I have to pick whether all nations deliver teams for the level 1 Asian continenal club cup, but based on financials and distances I will likely put in the east/west split that is in real life as well.

[Wolf_pd]

On an international level i am contemplating minimising the qualification by having the continental competition qualify teams for the World Cup. Not sure if I want to have that, but on some continents it already happens anyway, so it's not unrealistic. Another options I am considering is more of Nations League style qualification with different levels, but in that case not the groups of 4, but rather 8 or 10, similar to what South America is using.

[MRC]

Would creating Europe as if WW1 and WW2 never happened fit with your vision of the file?
The Austro-Hungarian dual-monarchy where football was already a big thing (which eventually culminated in the austrian "Wunderteam" being the first team from continental europe to beat Scotland in the 1930s further down the line), Prussia/The german monarchy, subsequent different borders for France and Italy, polish territory being part of either Germany or Russia/Soviet Union and so on.

It might certainly be controversial to some, but as someone with an interest in history it would be a dream come true for me to see this in FM. Depending on how far you go this could tie into your point about colonialism as well, although I don't mind going either way with that one between entirely omitting it and keeping it as if it was still in place today.

Seeing how you were thinking 1800s, you could go even further back (although it makes what is now Germany quite a bit more complicated), with Prussia, the small german state-states, the Habsburg monarchy, the Ottoman empire, France, a not yet united Italy with the kingdom of naples or the Kingdom of the two Sicilies

Edited December 4, 2023 by MRC

[Wolf_pd]

4 hours ago, MRC said:

Would creating Europe as if WW1 and WW2 never happened fit with your vision of the file?
The Austro-Hungarian dual-monarchy where football was already a big thing (which eventually culminated in the austrian "Wunderteam" being the first team from continental europe to beat Scotland in the 1930s further down the line), Prussia/The german monarchy, subsequent different borders for France and Italy, polish territory being part of either Germany or Russia/Soviet Union and so on.

It might certainly be controversial to some, but as someone with an interest in history it would be a dream come true for me to see this in FM. Depending on how far you go this could tie into your point about colonialism as well, although I don't mind going either way with that one between entirely omitting it and keeping it as if it was still in place today.

Seeing how you were thinking 1800s, you could go even further back (although it makes what is now Germany quite a bit more complicated), with Prussia, the small german state-states, the Habsburg monarchy, the Ottoman empire, France, a not yet united Italy with the kingdom of naples or the Kingdom of the two Sicilies

WW1 and WW2 will take place and have repercussions.

On the rest? No spoilers

[Golden Gordon]

This is getting increasingly more interesting. I'm looking forward to how Europe pans out and what happens re the two world wars. Are there different trigger points at different times to our time line? Then there are the different alliances and pacts and the geopolitical ramifications of that. 

Add in how different the Americas are, and a much reduced USA, this will also have its effect. What follows WW1 will effect events leading to WW2, and it will presumably have an impact on Africa, Asia, Australia and the Pacific.

Can't wait to see where and when the divergences occur and where they lead. Endless possibilities. 

[Samuel77]

Le 04/12/2023 à 07:44, MRC a dit :

Would creating Europe as if WW1 and WW2 never happened fit with your vision of the file?
The Austro-Hungarian dual-monarchy where football was already a big thing (which eventually culminated in the austrian "Wunderteam" being the first team from continental europe to beat Scotland in the 1930s further down the line), Prussia/The german monarchy, subsequent different borders for France and Italy, polish territory being part of either Germany or Russia/Soviet Union and so on.

It might certainly be controversial to some, but as someone with an interest in history it would be a dream come true for me to see this in FM. Depending on how far you go this could tie into your point about colonialism as well, although I don't mind going either way with that one between entirely omitting it and keeping it as if it was still in place today.

Seeing how you were thinking 1800s, you could go even further back (although it makes what is now Germany quite a bit more complicated), with Prussia, the small german state-states, the Habsburg monarchy, the Ottoman empire, France, a not yet united Italy with the kingdom of naples or the Kingdom of the two Sicilies

I think in Super League style it would be something different from anything else out there and it would be really interesting to set up and play!

[MRC]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Golden Gordon:

(...)
Then there are the different alliances and pacts and the geopolitical ramifications of that. 
(...)
Can't wait to see where and when the divergences occur and where they lead. Endless possibilities. 

I agree, getting more excited by the minute! Good point you're making as well. When the WWs happen, the Entente might not buy players from the central powers/the Allied might not do business with the Axis. Then again, the US were very keen to help rebuilding after the war was over, so perhaps this doesn't happen and there's gonna be increased business between the states and Germany in the end.
As you say, endless possibilities, and I am all here for it!

[Wolf_pd]

I wonder if I can still surprise you

[Golden Gordon]

With so many avenues this could end up taking, I'm sure there will be plenty of the unexpected, or at least your timeline taking a different turn from others would think. If Europe gets rearranged through differing events occurring during the 1800s then that could flow on to alter the empire building that happened during the 19th century. All very interesting. I am a sucker for alternate histories.

By the way, it's also been an education as I was very sketchy about the colonisation of South and Central America and this project has given me some background and reason to explore that further.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Golden Gordon
grammatical error

[Wolf_pd]

23 hours ago, Golden Gordon said:

By the way, it's also been an education as I was very sketchy about the colonisation of South and Central America and this project has given me some background and reason to explore that further.

You are not the only one. I had a general idea of what happened through the years, but when researching and putting the puzzle together I found a lot of details I didn't realise. It does explain for instance some of the odd (in my eyes) city and club names in South America. I only realised then that most of those nations have a much more mixed background than the Spanish 'base layer' that you see from the outside.

[sherwinriga]

This is interesting! I can't wait to see what East Asia and Southeast Asia would be like this universe. I'm thinking that Japan would stay united, but the Philippines may be balkanized a little bit.

[themodelcitizen]

May have been inspired in this line of thinking by @phnompenhandy's career thread, but what about moving Orkney (back) to Norway? Throw in some of the other Isles too (Anglesey was Norse for a couple of years a millennium or so ago IIRC ). Always have a good chuckle when stories like this come up https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/orkney-and-norway-relationship-explained-4214819

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, themodelcitizen said:

May have been inspired in this line of thinking by @phnompenhandy's career thread, but what about moving Orkney (back) to Norway? Throw in some of the other Isles too (Anglesey was Norse for a couple of years a millennium or so ago IIRC ). Always have a good chuckle when stories like this come up https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/orkney-and-norway-relationship-explained-4214819

The UK was bound to end up on the chopping board anyway

Will take it on board. Was considering a free Orkney but it is too small to create something from.

[phnompenhandy]

2 hours ago, themodelcitizen said:

May have been inspired in this line of thinking by @phnompenhandy's career thread, but what about moving Orkney (back) to Norway? Throw in some of the other Isles too (Anglesey was Norse for a couple of years a millennium or so ago IIRC ). Always have a good chuckle when stories like this come up https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/orkney-and-norway-relationship-explained-4214819

Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides), Isle of Man. 'Sutherland' = Southern Land - which it only is from a Norse perspective.

Faroes, Iceland, Greenland, Vinland, dammit, they named Russia!

[Wolf_pd]

21 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

Shetland, Orkney, the Western Isles (Outer Hebrides), Isle of Man. 'Sutherland' = Southern Land - which it only is from a Norse perspective.

Faroes, Iceland, Greenland, Vinland, dammit, they named Russia!

They won't get that far south in my case, but Orkney has expressed a wish to return home before.

I have a general idea for Europe which I am slowly building out, but history wise it is a bit more complex to put the puzzle together.

And then I am ignoring my Iron Curtain project.

[Wolf_pd]

Since I am working mostly on the Iron Curtain at the moment, I am thinking of adding the Oceania history first. Editing the Historical Divergence is being slowed because of some of the issues I am noticing in the Iron Curtain as well.

Some changes have been made to the editor which muck up my IC24 files and my HD42 files and fixing Historical Divergence has less priority than Iron Curtain right now.

[MRC]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Wolf_pd:

Since I am working mostly on the Iron Curtain at the moment, I am thinking of adding the Oceania history first. Editing the Historical Divergence is being slowed because of some of the issues I am noticing in the Iron Curtain as well.

Some changes have been made to the editor which muck up my IC24 files and my HD42 files and fixing Historical Divergence has less priority than Iron Curtain right now.

I see! Hoping fixing the issues isn't gonna turn out too tedious for you. Tremendously looking forward to both files, it's been a while since I've been this excited!

Some potential changes for Austria could be adding back South Tyrol (to make a combined Tyrol) and/or Trieste which used to be the most important harbor of the empire or to add Győr-Moson-Sopron County and Vas County which were intially meant to go to Austria alongside Burgenland after WW1(Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye) but ended up going to Hungary (Burgenland went to Austria).
There could also be a case for an independent Salzburg, but it's quite a small area and the times of it's independence are far back.

Alternatively there could be an independent South Tyrol as there have been people trying to initiate just that.

[Wolf_pd]

On 23/12/2023 at 22:01, MRC said:

I see! Hoping fixing the issues isn't gonna turn out too tedious for you. Tremendously looking forward to both files, it's been a while since I've been this excited!

Some potential changes for Austria could be adding back South Tyrol (to make a combined Tyrol) and/or Trieste which used to be the most important harbor of the empire or to add Győr-Moson-Sopron County and Vas County which were intially meant to go to Austria alongside Burgenland after WW1(Treaty of Saint-Germain-en-Laye) but ended up going to Hungary (Burgenland went to Austria).
There could also be a case for an independent Salzburg, but it's quite a small area and the times of it's independence are far back.

Alternatively there could be an independent South Tyrol as there have been people trying to initiate just that.

Hmmm, you are Austrian by any chance?

I have some ideas that might surprise you, but I need to see how to weave it into the historical setting.

The Hungary part is something I am going to look at. Considering my plans for Hungary it is an option to move that area to Austria.

[Wolf_pd]

In the Iron Curtain build I found out that all of my secondary nation changes have failed when loading the FM22 file into FM24.

Turns out that even if an extra option is added to the secondary nation part, all changes fail. Damn.... So that also means a change of plans for the player changes at this moment, as I am not interested in having to redo those every time I load up a file in a new FM version. The thing that slightly worries me is when FM25 comes around and changes are made for women football. Right now the nation is both the country and the national team. With women football entering the frame, the nation can no longer be the country, so (I expect) an extra section to turn up (yes, more things to tinker with ). But considering things like cities, local regions and languages are also connected to nation right now, that will likely then be connected to that new section instead. So more options for errors....

[grade]

bummer.

I was wondering about that as well from FM25. As the "eventual" upcoming changes, it is harder to plan anything for FM25, until we have hands-on it.

[Wolf_pd]

20 minutes ago, grade said:

bummer.

I was wondering about that as well from FM25. As the "eventual" upcoming changes, it is harder to plan anything for FM25, until we have hands-on it.

Yep. I did a compare between the XMLs of the FM23 and 24 editor this year to look for differences (which explains why I found so much ). The FM25 checks will probably throw up a lot of surprises.

I would vote for a group of people testing the FM25 editor paid by SI, but that's me

[themodelcitizen]

The extra "international" tab that emerged over the last few editions (where you can, say, give someone caps for another country from earlier in their career) does make it seem like they're moving towards that nationality != national team scenario. But the second nationality box in general is weird, like how you can't mass edit unless they all have the same criterion ("born in nation"/"eligible for nation" etc). And for that matter I'm not sure many of those options work as intended anyway. You'd think that the "...but not eligible for nation" one would mean they still count as domestic in league rules, but no

[Wolf_pd]

1 minute ago, themodelcitizen said:

The extra "international" tab that emerged over the last few editions (where you can, say, give someone caps for another country from earlier in their career) does make it seem like they're moving towards that nationality != national team scenario. But the second nationality box in general is weird, like how you can't mass edit unless they all have the same criterion ("born in nation"/"eligible for nation" etc). And for that matter I'm not sure many of those options work as intended anyway. You'd think that the "...but not eligible for nation" one would mean they still count as domestic in league rules, but no

Those secondary nation things feel like something for the researchers more than for the editor. And yes, not having the same criterion and having to mass edit is major annoying.

[grade]

18 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Yep. I did a compare between the XMLs of the FM23 and 24 editor this year to look for differences (which explains why I found so much ). The FM25 checks will probably throw up a lot of surprises.

I would vote for a group of people testing the FM25 editor paid by SI, but that's me

I wouldn't mind either.

But I would like for the Editor to be more user friendly. Not talking about the advanced Editor as easier to understand, that is daunting task to undertake, but I'm happy with basic editor as I normally do very common league systems (just wish for few incrementals in basic editor). What I'm talking is compatibility of moving existing files to newer versions. My main criticism is each single new version, the IDs of my created teams and leagues always change IDs to higher value. It would be nice to have a unique IDs for created stuff so that we don't have to change logos, kits and faces to new IDs each single version. No doubt in FM25, we are going to new range of ID value when creating club or a player or league, since I deduce that they will be adding quite a lot of stuff to the database due to women's football.

Sorry to hijack your thread for my complains and wants. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by grade

[MRC]

Am 25.12.2023 um 15:04 schrieb Wolf_pd:

Hmmm, you are Austrian by any chance?

I might be 

I have thoughts about what could be done with other countries as well, but I feel they are fairly basic and stuff you've certainly considered (regions with ambitions for separation and becoming their own nation or former colonies) so I feel like I can contribute the most when it comes to suggestions about Austria and regions that have been historically associated with us/how things could have turned out in another reality.
I love what you are doing because there are countless imagineable outcomes for Europe alone, especially if we just look at single wars without considering their consequences and are like "what if some of those changes prevailed?" or "What if that war was won rather than lost?" 

I've just been reading about the war of the fifth coalition, for example, where France annexed a bunch of territory up to where Croatia is today.

[Wolf_pd]

I have something in mind where the war of the fifth coalition might come in handy. It would tie things down nicely with some of the territory changes. Napoleon is my go-to for creating a mess on the map anyway

[Wolf_pd]

For deeper information on World War I and things I am reading about, check the Youtube channel The Great War.

[Wolf_pd]

I am working on level 1 competitions for Brazil, Rio de la Plata and Uruguay. Goal is twofold, see what the changes are in terms of teams and see what the international competitins like about it. If things run smoothly, with or without international club competitions I will pick up a few more, depending on which build nations I pick.

[Wolf_pd]

On 31/12/2023 at 15:38, Wolf_pd said:

For deeper information on World War I and things I am reading about, check the Youtube channel The Great War.

This is giving me a deep dive into history to a point that some of the things happening today can be brought back to decision taken in the 1910's, 20's and 30's. Obviously that is a oversimplification, but seeds were sown.

It is also given me plans. Evil plans

[Fire0Fart]

Will you release each continent file as you finish it? If yes when can we expect them? I know it probably won't be so soon but I really look forward to playing this.

[Wolf_pd]

16 minutes ago, Fire0Fart said:

Will you release each continent file as you finish it? If yes when can we expect them? I know it probably won't be so soon but I really look forward to playing this.

Good questions. I haven't thought about that yet since I am working on the Iron Curtain mostly. Probably depends on what happens with FM25 as that will be the time when I am most active with this project.

[Fire0Fart]

3 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Good questions. I haven't thought about that yet since I am working on the Iron Curtain mostly. Probably depends on what happens with FM25 as that will be the time when I am most active with this project.

Yeah it makes sense not to put too much work into something that might not even work in FM25.

[Wolf_pd]

While now editing on the Iron Curtain I am thinking of cleaning up one nation for their nationalities so I have an idea what chaos FM25 brings.

It would likely be a smaller country, but with enough variety to see what the conversion to FM25 brings.

[Wolf_pd]

Have decided on Finland and The Netherlands for the FM25 preparation files.

[Wolf_pd]

On 27/12/2023 at 12:04, grade said:

I wouldn't mind either.

But I would like for the Editor to be more user friendly. Not talking about the advanced Editor as easier to understand, that is daunting task to undertake, but I'm happy with basic editor as I normally do very common league systems (just wish for few incrementals in basic editor). What I'm talking is compatibility of moving existing files to newer versions. My main criticism is each single new version, the IDs of my created teams and leagues always change IDs to higher value. It would be nice to have a unique IDs for created stuff so that we don't have to change logos, kits and faces to new IDs each single version. No doubt in FM25, we are going to new range of ID value when creating club or a player or league, since I deduce that they will be adding quite a lot of stuff to the database due to women's football.

Sorry to hijack your thread for my complains and wants. 

I have a question about this, how much trouble is the renumbering? Is that from a graphics points of view? Since it’s bound to happen to me as well and right now I don’t see it much of an issue for my way of working I wonder if I am missing something.

[Wolf_pd]

After finishing up Italian data last night for the Iron Curtain I have a good overview on about 40% of the person database I think. Italian data is about 10% of that btw… And with Yugoslav and Soviet data you are on to 20% already. Looking at the data I am seeing some trouble for this project. And no, it’s not size. The issue is more about immigration.

I picked Finland and The Netherlands on purpose. The Netherlands as it has a mix of immigrants and colonial history that makes for a varied palette of people that have the Dutch nationality or second nationality. I picked Finland as its name base is quite specific, so easier to check. Helps that I have some interest in the country and have travelled there up into the North Pole circle. It’s cold there in May…

Looking at the European nations, cultural boundaries (which for my purpose usually end up in language and name based boundaries) are easy to set. In Asia this is less easy in the west and becomes easier going eastwards. Africa is a different story, but colonial language (English, French, Portuguese, etc)and local naming customs help to differentiate, but then you come to the nations that these days contain mostly immigrants, which comes down to pretty much the whole of the Americas (except for the Caribbean), Australia and New Zealand. There are two ways to go about, honour the history and leave it as is, pick a ‘goal’ and clean up everything that is different (which in my case just means those people get a different nationality) or pick a solution in between, which would mean picking a base language/culture and adjust the different ones to a certain extent. This would lead to new made up (but close to realistic) naming conventions for instance.

These are the good thoughts about the project btw, because it appeals to creativity. I have over 700 hours in the editor since release (count out how many hours a day on average that is  ) and sometimes things are just dull data editing. These culture and language things are more interesting.

[Briswall_Gaming]

On 19/12/2023 at 21:51, Wolf_pd said:

They won't get that far south in my case, but Orkney has expressed a wish to return home before.

I have a general idea for Europe which I am slowly building out, but history wise it is a bit more complex to put the puzzle together.

And then I am ignoring my Iron Curtain project.

Hey, why don't you combine Orkney, Shetland, the Western Hebrides & Isle of Man all into one nation?

[MRC]

Am 26.1.2024 um 09:21 schrieb Wolf_pd:

(...)

Looking at the European nations, cultural boundaries (which for my purpose usually end up in language and name based boundaries) are easy to set. In Asia this is less easy in the west and becomes easier going eastwards. Africa is a different story, but colonial language (English, French, Portuguese, etc)and local naming customs help to differentiate, but then you come to the nations that these days contain mostly immigrants, which comes down to pretty much the whole of the Americas (except for the Caribbean), Australia and New Zealand. There are two ways to go about, honour the history and leave it as is, pick a ‘goal’ and clean up everything that is different (which in my case just means those people get a different nationality) or pick a solution in between, which would mean picking a base language/culture and adjust the different ones to a certain extent. This would lead to new made up (but close to realistic) naming conventions for instance.

(...)

Interesting, because there are pros and cons for every approach. In the end it's down to personal preference. It probably would feel most familiar to people if either the history of immigration - which at times has shaped the culture considerably - to be honored or if an in-between approach was picked. With that said, as this is about historical divergence, depending on what path you decide to go the best solution might be a different one. At the end of the day I will be fine with either, whether you keep New Zealand mostly "english" (with a bit of german, italian, polish,.. sprinkled over) or whether you go more polynesian and Maori and omit some of the second nations present due to immigration. But I'm intrigued to see which way you decide in the end.

[Wolf_pd]

1 hour ago, MRC said:

Interesting, because there are pros and cons for every approach. In the end it's down to personal preference. It probably would feel most familiar to people if either the history of immigration - which at times has shaped the culture considerably - to be honored or if an in-between approach was picked. With that said, as this is about historical divergence, depending on what path you decide to go the best solution might be a different one. At the end of the day I will be fine with either, whether you keep New Zealand mostly "english" (with a bit of german, italian, polish,.. sprinkled over) or whether you go more polynesian and Maori and omit some of the second nations present due to immigration. But I'm intrigued to see which way you decide in the end.

Agreed. It's personal preference, but feedback on the subject does help streamline the though process.

[Wolf_pd]

The Iron Curtain is throwing up several curveballs at the moment which are very confusing as the process I follow is pretty much the same as for the FM20 version.

For the Historical Divergence it means I will from now on not re-use competitions from other nations, even if it is the most logical thing to do. You have to create from scratch, because making a duplicate didn't work for me for some reason.

Some testing the last few days has shown that the issue is the competition and not the teams itself. Slovak teams in a Czech competition, no issue. Czech teams in a Czech competition, no issue. Slovak teams in a (formerly) Slovak competition, issue. Slovak teams in a newly created competition, no issue. At least for the builds I have right now, they are first level competition of the nations I am building, so no competitions have been moved to other nations.