confusion about impact of team mentality on passing directness

[Feron]

Hello, I know that the mentality has an impact on most things, but when it comes to passing directness:

Could you generally say that going up from defensive mentality to "very attacking", the passing directness will be longer?
I mean it makes sense in some ways:  taking more risks to get the ball into the opponent's box more quickly.

However I am not sure because stronger and more confident teams would use their technique to do shorter passes and stay on the ball whereas very defensive teams would park the bus and then try their luck with very long passes rather than endangering their own box by doing Tiki Taka passes.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Feron

[The3points]

In my opinion:

Very Attacking: More Direct

Attacking: Direct

Positive: Standard

Balanced Standard

Cautious: Just less than Standard (but more eager to go long under pressure)

Defensive: Shorter (but under pressure will hoof, so proxy Direct

Very Defensive: Much Shorter (but any sort of pressure will cause hoofing, so proxy More Direct)

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

If anything, it should be the other way around if we are talking about real life?

 

Teams that ATTACK would be likely to play many more short passes, theyre attacking as a unit.

 

Defensive teams would be likely to play more long passes in real life......ie crosses into the box into a big forward, defensive clearances, diagonal balls into channels to relieve pressure etc.

 

I dont think the intepretation of this on the game makes a lot of sense to be honest. I would genuinely suggest they have passing directness the wrong way around, in the same way they used to use "Counter" as a menality, and it actually gave you MORE possession.

 

Should just make passing tempo and directness independent from team mentality.

[Rashidi]

Basically when you change mentality you are increasing or decreasing risk. Depending on the role and duty a player could play it short or long depending on the mentality and the team passing slider. A wingback on high mentality and on attack duty could try a cross field diagonal on higher mentalities and lower mentalities, but he may try riskier ones on higher mentalities. Mentality changes the behaviour of players by affording them the luxury or lack of choice depending on the mentality you have chosen.

[Rashidi]

For example now on FM23 I can have players playing longer passes on very defensive mentality too, if I chose the right roles and duties but created low risk passing options for them. In that case I have seen 3 pass moves from defense to attack to score goals. 

 

In fact sometimes central defenders can make some terrible passing options on higher mentalities as opposed to lower ones because they are willing to try riskier options.
 

I will be doing a video on this soon, things have changed between FM22 and FM23. People need to try the game out on different mentalities with different role and duty options. 
 

 

[Tsuru]

On FM 21 I normally play a fast, quick-transition game using Positive mentality. On FM 23 demo this was not possible (at least until now), because Positive mentality has changed. 

I am almost sure that on FM 21 the Positive mentality has "Slightly More Direct" passing as standard, on 23 the standard for Positive is "Shorter" pass. My quick transition game looks to be more efficient on Cautious/Balanced mentality using TIs. So you better check out in the game and during matches to confirm this

[寸身辛木]

That's why I am never a fan of the mentalities in this game. Yes they have reworked mentalities this year but it doesn’t make it less confusing and counterintuitive.
 

And I don’t think mentalities relate to risk/reward that well this game, because it’s more of a style of play or football philosophy type of thing. If you want to play the Barcelona style you use the positive; if you want to play like Ancelotti you use the cautious; Like Mourinho probably use the defensive and like Klopp or some German-influenced football you use attacking. I really want to see the mentalities as the ‘risk gauge’ but it’s not. Because in real life the risk is at least divided into two parts: offensive and defensive risks. Risks in football is never a single package. Coaches should be able to set their own offensive and defensive risks. For example, if I want my team to go as aggressive in the attack and as conservative defensively, I should be able to do that. But in this game it’s more like I need to use attacking when I attack and defensive when I defend, which is not possible. The separation of offensive and defensive mentalities might be the least SI could do to make this game more ‘realistic’ if the separation of offensive and defensive formations is too complex technically to achieve.

Edited November 10, 2022 by 寸身辛木

[Feron]

the thing is, the game says in the description of "passing directness" that the settings are "compared to the style generally adopted by the team's current mentality" ("shorter", "more direct", etc. they all are relative to the mentality)

So it seems that this whole thing completely evolves around the team mentality - and the mentality isn't just one of many factors, it is the central point.

So it is a little frustrating that it is so hard to interpret it clearly - even here in this forum with people who know much more about this game than the average player.

For example, I was hoping to find out things like the following:      Let's say my selected mentality is "attacking" which means that if I now put the passing directness on "shorter", it still will be much more direct than if the mentality was set to "defensive" and "shorter"   (= the more offensive mentality, the more direct the passing)

But apparently it even might just as well be the opposite... who knows.

 

By the way, the description of the "attacking mentality" says "employing a fast tempo and more direct passing". However, the other mentalities' texts are not that clear, making it impossible to establish a clear statement like "the more attacking, the more direct".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Feron

[bosque]

The best thing to do is starting on balanced with minimal instructions and observing what iinstruction during the game when you add an instrucion or change the mentality. What your players are doing differently

[CARRERA]

On 10/11/2022 at 15:57, Lesterfan_Cambiasso said:

I dont think the intepretation of this on the game makes a lot of sense to be honest. I would genuinely suggest they have passing directness the wrong way around,

I think you might just misunderstand passing directness. It is short vs direct, not short vs long.

Its about how quickly you are looking to move the ball forward by taking more or less risk. On a more direct style, players can use longer passes, as it’s a high risk method of moving the ball, but they are not limited to.

A shorter passing style will move the ball forward more slowly by taking less risks.

So it perfectly fits a more progressive mentality.

You also have to understand that passing length is heavily influenced by your teams set up of roles and duties and how much and where you create depth.

Teams like City or Barca (even in their prime) did and do use high risk direct balls to play the final pass eventhough they might build up rather slow from their own half. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by CARRERA

[Aoyao]

54 minutes ago, CARRERA said:

I think you might just misunderstand passing directness. It is short vs direct, not short vs long.

Its about how quickly you are looking to move the ball forward by taking more or less risk. On a more direct style, players can use longer passes, as it’s a high risk method of moving the ball, but they are not limited to.

A shorter passing style will move the ball forward more slowly by taking less risks.

So it perfectly fits a more progressive mentality.

You also have to understand that passing length is heavily influenced by your teams set up of roles and duties and how much and where you create depth.

Teams like City or Barca (even in their prime) did and do use high risk direct balls to play the final pass eventhough they might build up rather slow from their own half. 

Does it work togther with tempo instruction?

How does the tempo instruction work?

Edited November 11, 2022 by Aoyao

[HUNT3R]

3 hours ago, Aoyao said:

How does the tempo instruction work?

Tempo defines how long a player has the ball before he needs to make a decision to dribble/pass/shoot/cross.

 

Higher tempo is great in theory because it's more difficult to defend against as everything happens quicker. It does also mean that the team in possession needs to stay composed and make quick decisions and have the technical ability to play such a quick game.

Lower tempo is the opposite. More time on the ball to make good decisions and set yourself for the pass/shot/dribble/cross but it's also more time for the defense. Good off the ball movement will help a lot.

So on the topic of passing, tempo will define how quickly they'll pass, but not how short or direct.

[Feron]

I found a German page that basically distinguishes between defensive players and offensive players who then each get an opposite effect from team mentality:

more defensive mentality:

the defensive players will play more vertically to reduce pressure (well played this will open up counter play, in worst case it just carries the ball away for safety reasons).
the offensive players play shorter passes to reduce unnecessary possession losses.

more offensive mentality:

the defensive players circulate the ball more whereas the offensive players will take more risks and play more vertically

 

source:

https://fm.zweierkette.de/taktik/fm-passspiel-kurz-vertikal/

 

[cocoadavid]

FM seems to be changing the effect of mentalities on passing directness/longness from time to time (at leat according to the UI), and this year the effect is not clear to me yet, so if someone from FM could clarify this, it would be very welcome. To me it was clear how it used to work previously, but for FM23, I'm confused.

Older FMs:
In older FMs (around FM17 or something), it worked exactly how @Feron has described it above (you could clearly see this effect when you looked at the player instructions):

more defensive mentalities (counter/cautios and lower):
- defend duty players: more direct passes
- attack duty players: shorter passes

more offensive mentalities (control/positive and higher ):
- defend duty players: shorter passes
- attack players: more direct passes

FM 21
On FM21 the UI suggests that it it has an effect on the 'In Possession' TI:

more defensive mentalities (cautios and lower):
- shorter passes

more offensive mentalities (positive and higher ):
- more direct passes

So, for example, according to the UI:
- Defensive mentality: the default passing directness for the whole team is "Slightly Shorter"
- Attacking mentality: the default passing directness for the whole team is "Slightly More Direct"

FM 23
Now it really is confusing, because, according to the UI:
Defensive mentality: Slightly More Direct
Positive mentality: Slightly Shorter
BUT
on Very Attacking mentality, it is: Slightly More Direct, just like on Defensive mentality.

So when someone looks at the UI, it seems like that the mentality does not have a linear effect on passing directness, it goes from More Direct to Slightly Shorter to More Direct again.
Do you see why it is confusing?

So could someone from the FM staff please clarify what is the effect of mentalites on passing directness this year?

Thank you in advance,
David



 

[(sic)]

On 11/11/2022 at 07:42, Feron said:

more defensive mentality:

the defensive players will play more vertically to reduce pressure (well played this will open up counter play, in worst case it just carries the ball away for safety reasons).
the offensive players play shorter passes to reduce unnecessary possession losses.

more offensive mentality:

the defensive players circulate the ball more whereas the offensive players will take more risks and play more vertically

 

This is exactly what I've observed so far.

I wanted to play a possession oriented 4-3-3. I always used positive/attacking in FM22, but decided to use Balanced this time, just to see how it works.

Basically, my defenders were hoofing the ball up the field way too often for my liking. After switching to the Attacking mentality, they were actually more willing to pass around and circulate the ball. Which is what I originally wanted. Great.

But on the other hand, I have to use the Support duty on my AML and AMR if I want them to track back in defense. If they're left on the Attack duty, they would just position themselves far too forward in defense. On Balanced mentality, they would be more willing to track back. 

 

Essentially, I ended up playing with everyone on Support, besides my 2 Central Defenders. And it works really well when it comes to keeping the ball, and even getting the results. 


So more risk doesn't necessarily mean more long balls. I found it's the opposite. Playing out the back and playing shorter passes out of defence is quite risky, especially when under pressure. So if you wanted to play like that, but on Cautious mentality, your players just wouldn't risk it, and would hoof the ball forward.


Imo mentalities are still poorly designed, and they just shouldn't affect everything about your tactics. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by (sic)

[Rashidi]

I’ve found the opposite. I can set up a tactic on very defensive mentality and still produce good attacking football if I’ve set the right team instructions and chosen the right roles and duties.  On FM22 I would see more hoof the ball from the back and sideways passes but on FM23 my attacking duties bust a gut to get up the pitch. If I am playing with max width I can also see quick diagonals if I have Attack duties on either side.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

54 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I’ve found the opposite. I can set up a tactic on very defensive mentality and still produce good attacking football if I’ve set the right team instructions and chosen the right roles and duties.  On FM22 I would see more hoof the ball from the back and sideways passes but on FM23 my attacking duties bust a gut to get up the pitch. If I am playing with max width I can also see quick diagonals if I have Attack duties on either side.

If we had the skill youve got, and put the time into it you have, we would all be geniuses like you.

You "get" the game, in a way a lot of people simply dont.

The mentality wording being an example of this.

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

I’ve found the opposite. I can set up a tactic on very defensive mentality and still produce good attacking football if I’ve set the right team instructions and chosen the right roles and duties.  On FM22 I would see more hoof the ball from the back and sideways passes but on FM23 my attacking duties bust a gut to get up the pitch. If I am playing with max width I can also see quick diagonals if I have Attack duties on either side.

I've inherited a squad with serious weaknesses and set myself a rule that I can't recruit and have to make the most of it. The squad is old with little stamina, can't defend or pass. After a huge amount of trial and error, I've hit on a successful formula, a formation that's 3 (DCs)-2 DMs- 2CMs-1 AMC - 2STRs. I have a low block, low LoE, short passing and TIs set to force the oppo into the crowded centre and OIs to press when they get dangerous. With the whole structure being very defensive, there seems no point in setting the mentality to also be defensive or cautious. I've found a positive mentality over this defensive structure hits the sweet spot for my squad.

[Lesterfan_Cambiasso]

16 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I’ve found the opposite. I can set up a tactic on very defensive mentality and still produce good attacking football if I’ve set the right team instructions and chosen the right roles and duties.  On FM22 I would see more hoof the ball from the back and sideways passes but on FM23 my attacking duties bust a gut to get up the pitch. If I am playing with max width I can also see quick diagonals if I have Attack duties on either side.

Hi there

Surely as I said previously, this is an argument for making mentality seperate from passing directness and tempo?

Why have mentality at all? why not just let passing directness, tempo and roles "define" the mentality? 

If i pick risk averse roles, then im playing in a risk averse style.

If i pick roles that take risks, im playing in a riskier style.

Wouldnt this make sense?

[VeniVV]

It shouldn't really matter that much. So long as your team presses high and frequently, you'll see a lot of what you want to happen actually happen on the pitch. 

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, VeniVV said:

It shouldn't really matter that much. So long as your team presses high and frequently, you'll see a lot of what you want to happen actually happen on the pitch. 

What good about FM23 is you don't have to go with alleged bias in the ME. My squad are aged with poor stamina. In my initial set-up in pre-season they simply couldn't get through 90 minutes. I've got a tactic set up where they don't run or press that much - low tempo, short passing, no counter - and now we're flying.

[cocoadavid]

Please have a look at the line chart below, it showcases why passing directness on FM23 can cause confusion. It displays how passing directness changed from FM21 to FM23, according to what you can see on the In Possession TI. 

1 = slightly shorter
3 = slightly more direct

 

When you compare the 2 line charts, you can see that there is a significant difference, it is something that can have a big impact on your style of play.

Please don't misunderstand me, if the passing directness on FM23 works like what you can see on the graph, I think it is a good change, because it goes better with the mentality descriptions.
What bothers me is that a change like this should have been mentioned officially.

In case passing directness does not work like this in FM23, then there is a UI bug.

[phnompenhandy]

10 minutes ago, cocoadavid said:

Please have a look at the line chart below, it showcases why passing directness on FM23 can cause confusion. It displays how passing directness changed from FM21 to FM23, according to what you can see on the In Possession TI. 

1 = slightly shorter
3 = slightly more direct

 

When you compare the 2 line charts, you can see that there is a significant difference, it is something that can have a big impact on your style of play.

Please don't misunderstand me, if the passing directness on FM23 works like what you can see on the graph, I think it is a good change, because it goes better with the mentality descriptions.
What bothers me is that a change like this should have been mentioned officially.

In case passing directness does not work like this in FM23, then there is a UI bug.

Seems quite logical to me. Very defensive tells your players not to take risks, so just hoof the ball up the park. Very attacking means attack in very risky ways - hoof the ball or play rapid through balls. The middling mentalities tell your players to use more intelligence in their passing, with each increment upwards suggesting taking slightly braver, riskier approaches.

[(sic)]

6 hours ago, cocoadavid said:

Please have a look at the line chart below, it showcases why passing directness on FM23 can cause confusion. It displays how passing directness changed from FM21 to FM23, according to what you can see on the In Possession TI. 

1 = slightly shorter
3 = slightly more direct

 

When you compare the 2 line charts, you can see that there is a significant difference, it is something that can have a big impact on your style of play.

Please don't misunderstand me, if the passing directness on FM23 works like what you can see on the graph, I think it is a good change, because it goes better with the mentality descriptions.
What bothers me is that a change like this should have been mentioned officially.

In case passing directness does not work like this in FM23, then there is a UI bug.

This does make sense, but where did you get that info from? 

[cocoadavid]

8 hours ago, (sic) said:

This does make sense, but where did you get that info from? 

You can see the defauIt passing directness for each mentality on the In Possession screen - eg. in FM21 on Very Defensive mentality it is 'slightly shorter', while in FM23 it is 'slightly more direct' - , then I put the data into a line chart creator.

Edited November 18, 2022 by cocoadavid

[(sic)]

15 minutes ago, cocoadavid said:

You can see the defauIt passing directness for each mentality on the In Possession screen - eg. in FM21 on Very Defensive mentality it is 'slightly shorter', while in FM23 it is 'slightly more direct' - , then I put the data into a line chart creator.

Hmmm, makes sense if it's true. 

I never believed that text description. For example when you go on player instructions, it would say Trigger press "Less Often" but the green bar would be full. So over the years I just learned to ignore it  

[cocoadavid]

40 minutes ago, (sic) said:

Hmmm, makes sense if it's true. 

I never believed that text description. For example when you go on player instructions, it would say Trigger press "Less Often" but the green bar would be full. So over the years I just learned to ignore it  

On the player instructions screen the pressing/closing down has been buggy for years for some roles, so you are right to have some doubts  But in my experience the team instructions can be trusted more.

[Rashidi]

The passing instructions on team mentality are supposed to be in line with team mentality. So a defensive tactic will have a team passing setting of direct, because we need to get the ball up quick. Positive would see the side willing to take risks to build goal scoring chances so it’s on slightly shorter, or shorter (can’t remember which. And on very attacking mentality the goal is to get the balL up as quickly as we can even if it’s a bad idea hence more direct.

 

Team pressing is also adjusted to reflect this but here I will caution people to pay attention to how this is set up to play with DL and LOE.