Overcome Teams that sit Deep Against you

[ta11zx]

Im currently using this set up - thanks to @Cult of Football Manager for creating a 2013 Ateltico Madrid tactic.   This is for FM21.



I am now facing teams that stay deeper and hit us on the counter attack - i have no idea how to combat this.  i moved the defensive line line to high while leaving the LOE to lower (so we have space to counter attack).

Can anyone provide me tips on how to tweak this to overcome teams that sit deep and counter me? 

Conversely - I'm also looking for ways to make this tactic more attacking for when i really need some gols.  would love help on this department also.

[ta11zx]

Even though the tactic is defensivly solid enough.  I'd love advise on making this even more defensivly solid to close out games where we are leading. 

[kingjericho]

Are you getting good results overall?

Sometimes there are tactics which I don't understand that work very well... I can't see in this setup who attacks the box. The only midfielder with an attack duty is a playmaker, CM/d and BWM/s are more conservative roles, and the WM/d too.

[crusadertsar]

@ta11zx

Your choice of roles makes no sense to me. Who is actually supposed to be scoring goals? Your WP who is on attack duty? Your Targetman? Or your BWM who seems to be your only runner from midfield. None of those are ideal choices in this kind of set-up.

Rework your midfield roles to give better balance and penetration to your tactic. Otherwise it will continue to struggle against determined sides that sit deep. 

Edited January 13, 2022 by crusadertsar

[ta11zx]

This is the tactic i am following created by @Cult of Football Manager .  In the video he mentioned you can turn the BWM to CMs - would that help in penetrating role? 

[crusadertsar]

1 hour ago, ta11zx said:

This is the tactic i am following created by @Cult of Football Manager .  In the video he mentioned you can turn the BWM to CMs - would that help in penetrating role? 

Maybe. But why use BWM, a midfield destroyer role, when there are other roles that will perform the task better without too much custom instructions. Making BWM into your midfield runner sounds overly complicated. Why not just play CM (s) with instruction to get forward or BBM. Or even CM (a).

[ta11zx]

1 hour ago, crusadertsar said:

Maybe. But why use BWM, a midfield destroyer role, when there are other roles that will perform the task better without too much custom instructions. Making BWM into your midfield runner sounds overly complicated. Why not just play CM (s) with instruction to get forward or BBM. Or even CM (a).

This sounds like an idea.  I will give both a shot.  

 

Any other advice on breaking teams down that defend deep or to make it even more attacking when I need some gols?

[Jack722]

23 minutes ago, ta11zx said:

This sounds like an idea.  I will give both a shot.  

 

Any other advice on breaking teams down that defend deep or to make it even more attacking when I need some gols?

not trying to be funny, but you know you're playing with a defensive player on the wing (very rare) and only on a positive mentality while sitting fairly deep?

It's really not as hard as you think it is. Try move up to an attacking mentality on the easier home games, while pressing higher and having a more attacking role on your right wing.

[ta11zx]

5 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

not trying to be funny, but you know you're playing with a defensive player on the wing (very rare) and only on a positive mentality while sitting fairly deep?

It's really not as hard as you think it is. Try move up to an attacking mentality on the easier home games, while pressing higher and having a more attacking role on your right wing.

Yeah I'm just a novice at this lol   just trying to get ppls input so I can learn.  

 

But if a team is sitting deep against me and I move my LOE or up. Then won't I have even less space to attack since their end is already congested?  What role would you recommend to change the RM that would still provide some defensive solidarity?

[glengarry224]

In addition to the very good advice others wrote, narrow attacking is tough against teams that sit deep.  You might want to try standard or wide.  

Agree that lower LOE can open up some space to counter, but then you might still want to increase pressing a little to win the ball back and block passing lanes.  Also, perhaps more direct passing to move the ball forwards more before they retreat into their shell.

Extremely high tempo is hard to pull off.  Do you have the players with excellent decision making, anticipation and vision?  Do you lose the ball a lot?  Might work great but you might need to be a little more patient.  Yes, this is contradictory to what I wrote earlier about winning the ball back and getting it forwards before they retreat but you might need some balance.  Takes trial and error.

[Jack722]

59 minutes ago, ta11zx said:

Yeah I'm just a novice at this lol   just trying to get ppls input so I can learn.  

 

But if a team is sitting deep against me and I move my LOE or up. Then won't I have even less space to attack since their end is already congested?  What role would you recommend to change the RM that would still provide some defensive solidarity?

This is a myth.

Loe doesn't really relate to counter attacks or space to attack as much as you think. Take gegenpressing for example, it's a whole style of play based on high pressing and counter attacks

[DarJ]

49 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

This is a myth.

Loe doesn't really relate to counter attacks or space to attack as much as you think. Take gegenpressing for example, it's a whole style of play based on high pressing and counter attacks

Both things can be true. The real definition of counter attacking to me is winning the ball back from the opposition and attacking them right away and that can happen anywhere on the pitch, it just happens that the gegenpress style is based on doing that high up the pitch.

What @ta11zx meant was by lowering you line of engagement, the opposing team will have to bring the ball out because you're not putting pressure on them. If you lower the pressing as well it will work great then you might use OIs to tight mark the wide players and tackle hard the central players 

[ta11zx]

39 minutes ago, DarJ said:

Both things can be true. The real definition of counter attacking to me is winning the ball back from the opposition and attacking them right away and that can happen anywhere on the pitch, it just happens that the gegenpress style is based on doing that high up the pitch.

What @ta11zx meant was by lowering you line of engagement, the opposing team will have to bring the ball out because you're not putting pressure on them. If you lower the pressing as well it will work great then you might use OIs to tight mark the wide players and tackle hard the central players 

But if their on cautious mentality and "waste time often" and I drop my pressing intensity and my loe - doesn't that mean all their gonna do is "play out of drfensr" with very low tempo and short passing and just keep passing to their own players in an effort to waste time?

[kingjericho]

2 hours ago, ta11zx said:

But if their on cautious mentality and "waste time often" and I drop my pressing intensity and my loe - doesn't that mean all their gonna do is "play out of drfensr" with very low tempo and short passing and just keep passing to their own players in an effort to waste time?

They may prefer to hoof the ball directly to the striker, who knows. Naturally if you set a lower LoE and less Pressing you will be positioned further back on the pitch but the opposition may still keep a direct passing game, not everyone likes to play out of defence.

Also, don't always link a mentality to a specific play style. Think of mentality as a level of risk, if a team is on 'cautious' it means they will not try too many risky actions (through balls, long shots, 1v1, etc), and it doesn't always mean they have a low defensive block.

[CARRERA]

Becoming more passive and dropping lines against a team that doesn’t want to attack and just tries to waste time with low tempo and short passes is definitely not the way to go. It will just limit your own time on the ball and your chances to score. 

I agree, that counter attacks can happen anywhere on the pitch as it’s simply about the speed of the transition from defense to offense. 
however, breaking down defensive teams on the break can be very difficult to pull off as you will find your attackers most likely be outnumbered by the defenders. 

the easiest way to adjust the tactic to a more attacking / defensive one is to shift around the number of attack or defend duties without affecting the overall structure of your team. 

Disband one or two defend duties to make those (or other) players attack and you will find your team in a whole different position.