Roles, Mentality and Positioning

[thejay]

I have a problem which has been there for a couple of FM versions now, its about support vs attack mentality and offensive vs defensive movement. 

Usually in fm21 i play some version of 433 like this for example.

 

Now I usually use short passing and balanced or positive mentality to keep possession and try to create chances while in possession.

This works reasonable well but the movement from the forward players when they are in support duty just is very bad, the striker does not make typical striker runs and just drops to receive the ball but does not attack the space without the ball , the wide forwards similarly do not aggressively attack the space when the striker drops for example or after one twos, general offensive movement is just bad in support duty .

But the problem I have when I put them on attack mentality is the wide players don't track back enough on the flanks which leaves me exposed defensively . When I put the central striker on attack duty he also just stays up when the team is defending which isolates him in the buildup and this also means the buildup from the back misses one player and is harder against a press. 

Is there any solution to this ? Have the players come deep but also attack the space properly in attack ?

I don't think in real life having a striker come deep in possession means he does not make striker runs anymore

[herne79]

You also need to pay attention to player attributes and Traits, especially ones such as Work Rate, Determination and "gets forward often".  Players with high levels of work rate and determination will be more likely to work hard for the team, including in the defensive phase, whereas "gets forward often" can leave players out of position if caught in possession.

Also don't forget you are telling your players to engage the opposition high up the pitch due to "higher line of engagement", so your AML/R for example are looking to press high (which is fine) but may then find themselves caught out high up the pitch if the opposition plays around their press.  Which then takes me back to their work rate and so on.

With the right players I'm quite happy to give at least one of my wide players an attack duty - even a player with the Trequartista role will track back.

Tactics and players are two sides of the same coin .

Having said all of that, do remember that the more often a player tracks back the more often he may be in a poor position when you want to attack.

[thejay]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb herne79:

 .

Having said all of that, do remember that the more often a player tracks back the more often he may be in a poor position when you want to attack.

Sorry but this only matters when you attack in transitions, not when you build up slow from the back which what i  am trying, the players has plenty of time to get back forward because the buildup is methodical . 

 

What about the central striker movement, regardless of attributes and traits, on attack duty he just stays forward when the team defends, leaving a large gap between him and the rest of the team 

[zabyl]

Regardless of player attributes and traits; i would change IFs to IFa or PFs to DLFa. One potential goal scorer is always helpful to beat the opposition.

There is no need to use a CWB when you have another player on that side. A WBs will be less risky behind and IF.

You prefer a balanced mentaliy so; it has an optimum tempo level. I don't understand why you use a lower tempo + much shorter passing + work ball into box combo. That is an overkill for me. That is too much.

Besides there are 2 players on the rigth flank, do they create enough width to widen the play?

 

edit: Players with attack duty or forward runs on deeper positions tend to come deep and also attack the space like ML/MR positions instead of AML/AMR.

Edited August 28, 2021 by zabyl

[thejay]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb zabyl:

; i would change IFs to IFa or PFs to DLFa. One potential goal scorer is always helpful to beat the opposition.

But when i do that the wide players stay up and create two vs one on the flanks and the forwards also stays up which is bad for the buildup , this was the reason for this whole post. 

 

 

[zabyl]

5 dakika önce, thejay said:

But when i do that the wide players stay up and create two vs one on the flanks and the forwards also stays up which is bad for the buildup , this was the reason for this whole post. 

 

 

That is because it is a risk/reward approach. Try to use your wide attackers on deeper positions with attack duty or forward runs.

Edited August 28, 2021 by zabyl

[thejay]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb zabyl:

 

edit: Players with attack duty or forward runs on deeper positions tend to come deep and also attack the space like ML/MR positions instead of AML/AMR.

In the ml mr position i dont have roles like inside forward and also their positioning when not having the ball is way too deep in the buildup, also this still does not solve the striker issue  

[zabyl]

15 dakika önce, thejay said:

In the ml mr position i dont have roles like inside forward and also their positioning when not having the ball is way too deep in the buildup, also this still does not solve the striker issue  

I think you have definite biases instead of trying to solve the problem. Players with attack duty and noncontradictory player traits on ML/MR positions and a DLFa can help to satisfy your demands. 

You want your wide forwards with attack duties to drop deep while your team lost the ball, or attack space with a support duty like an attack duty. Those are conflicting thoughts.

Edited August 28, 2021 by zabyl

[herne79]

16 minutes ago, thejay said:

also this still does not solve the striker issue

How is your team performing compared to Board expectations; how many goals are you scoring; how many are you conceding; and who is your top goal scorer?  Some context might help.

[thejay]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb zabyl:

I think you have definite biases instead of trying to solve the problem. Players with attack duty and noncontradictory player traits on ML/MR positions and a DLFa can help to satisfy your demands. 

You want your wide forwards with attack duties to drop deep while your team lost the ball, or attack space with a support duty like an attack duty. Those are conflicting thoughts.

Its just about the movement of the player which i explained in detail , where they are when the ball is at a certain position during the  possession phase .

 

On ml mr in a slow buildup when the ball is in the central midfield without the ball they position themselves too deep to receive the ball in the optimal position compared to aml amr.

 

This is on aml amr

 

This on ml mr on attack duty 

Their initial position is just deeper and they rush forward but start at a lower position , this is even more drastic when the opponent presses and you want to build from the back , they stay too deep which kills passing options and only rush forward in the final third. 

Then there is the added problem of the limited roles . no inside forward and lots of wide midfielder roles vs winger roles .

 

[thejay]

vor 37 Minuten schrieb herne79:

How is your team performing compared to Board expectations; how many goals are you scoring; how many are you conceding; and who is your top goal scorer?  Some context might help.

I win just fine most of the time because the high pressing is so strong in this game that i eventually grind down most teams, this post wasnt about not being able to win, just about the details of mentality and movement and how to possible optimize it. 

[zabyl]

21 dakika önce, thejay said:

Then there is the added problem of the limited roles . no inside forward and lots of wide midfielder roles vs winger roles .

WM is less limited than an IF. Because it has no default PI. The main offensive weakness between them is; WM starts attacking from a deeper position.

 

One thing to reconsider maybe increasing team mentality without changing anything to increase front players' risk taking and attacking intent. That seems the only choice with support duty wide attackers and a support duty forward. But that modification will affect everything and increase risks teamwise. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by zabyl

[herne79]

5 hours ago, thejay said:

I win just fine most of the time because the high pressing is so strong in this game that i eventually grind down most teams, this post wasnt about not being able to win, just about the details of mentality and movement and how to possible optimize it. 

I know what it's about, as advised what's missing is context.  We can't see what you do so we need more info to help.  Can you answer the questions please, here they are again (with a small addendum):

How is your team performing compared to Board expectations; how many goals are you scoring; how many are you conceding; and who is your top goal scorer / how many has he scored?

[Hilly1979]

Not quite sure the point of this thread…. Lots of great advice given yet non taken….

[CARRERA]

8 hours ago, thejay said:

the striker does not make typical striker runs and just drops to receive the ball but does not attack the space without the ball , the wide forwards similarly do not aggressively attack the space when the striker drops for example or after one twos, general offensive movement is just bad in support duty .

Well why do you expect you players to make aggressive runs if you are on the other looking for a much shorter passing game? To attack the space, players demand vertical or diagonal passes. Your players are doing exactly what you've asked them for. They offer safe and close passing options.

[glengarry224]

Yes, the game has limitations.  You are correct that in FM21, you cannot give the complexity of instructions that a manager can give IRL.  For example, you cannot instruct specific triggers or tell your striker:  half the time, drop into the hole, the other half try to beat the offside trap; let alone:  if the LCB brings the ball out of defense, drift right, keep the RCB off your left side, and look for a through ball towards that edge of the box.  Perhaps SI will include that but the game is already very complex.

Another idea:  use man marking for 1-2 forwards.  So put your AML on IF(a) but tell him to man mark the opposition DR; or put your striker on PF(a) and instruct him to man mark the opposition DM.  Yes, on attack duty, when you lose possession, they will not be in good position to man mark, and during the match, your assistant will warn you that the man marking is taking them out of position, but that'd happen IRL too if you wanted a player to do both roles.

Also, as I understand it, you want your striker to drop deeper in buildup, but when you get into the final third, you want him to make striker-attack runs.  That is harder to accomplish but as others have written, if you have the right players -- who have good ant/otb/acc/agi/flair/dec -- they will do it when the situation arises.  DLF(a) is much more likely to do it than F9.

[thejay]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb glengarry224:

 

Also, as I understand it, you want your striker to drop deeper in buildup, but when you get into the final third, you want him to make striker-attack runs.  That is harder to accomplish but as others have written, if you have the right players -- who have good ant/otb/acc/agi/flair/dec -- they will do it when the situation arises.  DLF(a) is much more likely to do it than F9.

Yes especially the main striker role is the biggest problem for me, if they are not on attack duty regardless of role they rarely if ever make striker runs but on attack they dont stay with the team in the buildup an especially when the team is defending  , they stay up and are disconnected from the rest of the team. 

But if you watch modern teams in general the isolated stay alone up top striker role does not really exist anymore , instead  almost all strikers defend with the team, press or occupy specific plays like the opposition dm . They still play like strikers in attack . 

I will try man marking to see if it helps 

Edited August 29, 2021 by thejay

[Rashidi]

How that striker moves is a function of his role. You chose a PF, that roles presses the backline when you have position of the ball. How well he moves between the channels is a function of his attributes.  I don't see how that PF wont attack the box. Your whole tactic has plenty of players on support duty and even on higher mentalities I will expect the PF to move around. Now he wont go to the channels because thats not a PF on support will do but he work the pockets of space and put the defenders under pressure.

[Johnny Ace]

On 28/08/2021 at 09:06, thejay said:

Is there any solution to this ? Have the players come deep but also attack the space properly in attack ?

I don't think in real life having a striker come deep in possession means he does not make striker runs anymore

Surely that's what a DLF(A) is? They drop deep, lay the ball off & make a forward run 

[zabyl]

15 saat önce, thejay said:

Yes especially the main striker role is the biggest problem for me, if they are not on attack duty regardless of role they rarely if ever make striker runs but on attack they dont stay with the team in the buildup an especially when the team is defending  , they stay up and are disconnected from the rest of the team. 

But if you watch modern teams in general the isolated stay alone up top striker role does not really exist anymore , instead  almost all strikers defend with the team, press or occupy specific plays like the opposition dm . They still play like strikers in attack . 

I will try man marking to see if it helps 

Have you tried a strikerless formation?

Drop the striker position to AMC and use an SS for main attacker. Let me know if it mimics your idea. Because i want to use it on my counter-attacking save.

[DarJ]

On 28/08/2021 at 09:06, thejay said:

But the problem I have when I put them on attack mentality is the wide players don't track back enough on the flanks which leaves me exposed defensively . When I put the central striker on attack duty he also just stays up when the team is defending which isolates him in the buildup and this also means the buildup from the back misses one player and is harder against a press. 

That is the game of football in a nutshell, it's all about trying to find balance if you have one of your wingers on attack duty and you know he's not going to track back, it's probably a good idea to have a more defense minded midfielder and fullback on that side of the pitch to keep the balance