Keeping Games Tight: Too Difficult?

[Haribo1681]

32 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

Stuff about AF fascinating. How on earth were we meant to know that?

I also read somewhere you press useless players not talented players. So someone like Kevin de Bruyne who I always pressed (never man mark as hell draw my players out of position) I’m meant to ignore! 
 

it’s just so badly explained 

Instructions like this do make some sense to me - for instance, I try to use opposition instructions to use harder tackling on players with low bravery or increased pressing intensity on players with low composure; conversely, I avoid pressing players with high dribbling ability for fear of my players being skinned!

[FulchesterFred]

1 hour ago, Haribo1681 said:

Instructions like this do make some sense to me - for instance, I try to use opposition instructions to use harder tackling on players with low bravery or increased pressing intensity on players with low composure; conversely, I avoid pressing players with high dribbling ability for fear of my players being skinned!

I get not man marking players with high dribbling but not closing them down? So you leave them alone?

Don’t you think it’s more sensible to give their leaden footed CB the ball by never pressing them so they get the ball most of the time. 
 

I just don’t think there’s any transparency here. 

[Haribo1681]

16 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

I get not man marking players with high dribbling but not closing them down? So you leave them alone?

Don’t you think it’s more sensible to give their leaden footed CB the ball by never pressing them so they get the ball most of the time. 
 

I just don’t think there’s any transparency here. 

I think things like this are ambiguous - personally, it makes more sense to me to close down an attacking player with good distribution to stop them crossing or playing a defence-splitting pass, whereas a strong dribbler I'd prefer to show into a cul-de-sac or any area where we have greater defensive strength so they can't do any damage. Closing them down with intensity - in my opinion - would allow them to beat the defender and use the space created, potentially.

In the example of a clumsy defender, I'd want to close off passing channels so that they become the only available option, at which point we then instigate the intense press and force an error, rather than press hard across the board and create gaps elsewhere for more technical players to exploit - something I'm not sure how to do in FM (but I'm sure is possible with the right instructions). I'm also not sure scout reports in FM currently give you this kind of information as all I ever see is that the opposition has a group of goalkeepers who have a tendency to punch the ball a lot (for example).

Edited September 1, 2021 by Haribo1681

[herne79]

4 hours ago, Haribo1681 said:

so we accidentally issue conflicting instructions which cause problems and don't reflect what we actually want. For example - I was told earlier in this thread that using an Advanced Forward contradicts Play Out of Defence, because this makes my team string a couple of aimless passes together, then get frustrated and try to launch it in behind for the forward to chase, which then allows the opposition to counter.

 

2 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

Stuff about AF fascinating. How on earth were we meant to know that?

I agree that some more information in game could be useful, however I'm also going to play devil's advocate here and suggest us users don't always read things properly either, which can then snowball a myth into reality.

Example - nobody in this thread has said that playing an AF contradicts PooD, yet hairbo says someone did which fred then accepts as reality.  This is what was actually said about the AF and Play out of Defence:

Quote

May I know what is the logic behind playing out of defence and shorter passing when you are clearly looking to hit the advanced forward with a pass and break with it? What I suspect happened is you ended up with lots of meaningless passing and the opposition simply just waits for you to make a mistake (and you definitely will with this 4411 formation) and destroyed you from transitions.

What's being said there has got nothing to do with the use of an Advanced Forward.  The person who made the comment (correctly) pointed out that you are using shorter passing / PooD which perhaps conflicts with the desired intention of getting the ball up to your striker quickly in order to make a break (aka fast transition front to back).  So PooD / shorter passing is the possible conflict with quick transitions - nothing to do with the striker's role.

[Haribo1681]

59 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

I agree that some more information in game could be useful, however I'm also going to play devil's advocate here and suggest us users don't always read things properly either, which can then snowball a myth into reality.

Example - nobody in this thread has said that playing an AF contradicts PooD, yet hairbo says someone did which fred then accepts as reality.  This is what was actually said about the AF and Play out of Defence:

What's being said there has got nothing to do with the use of an Advanced Forward.  The person who made the comment (correctly) pointed out that you are using shorter passing / PooD which perhaps conflicts with the desired intention of getting the ball up to your striker quickly in order to make a break (aka fast transition front to back).  So PooD / shorter passing is the possible conflict with quick transitions - nothing to do with the striker's role.

I had a long-ish post responding to this and trying to explain my point of view, but there's no need really, so I've just edited it away to avoid confrontation.

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Haribo1681
arguments are pointless.

[FulchesterFred]

41 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

I agree that some more information in game could be useful, however I'm also going to play devil's advocate here and suggest us users don't always read things properly either, which can then snowball a myth into reality.

Example - nobody in this thread has said that playing an AF contradicts PooD, yet hairbo says someone did which fred then accepts as reality.  This is what was actually said about the AF and Play out of Defence:

What's being said there has got nothing to do with the use of an Advanced Forward.  The person who made the comment (correctly) pointed out that you are using shorter passing / PooD which perhaps conflicts with the desired intention of getting the ball up to your striker quickly in order to make a break (aka fast transition front to back).  So PooD / shorter passing is the possible conflict with quick transitions - nothing to do with the striker's role.

Fair comment.

so quick forward transitions can’t happen with short passing? Isn’t that exactly what Liverpool do IRL? The fluid counter attack preset uses shorter passing and play out of defence. Win the ball, short pass to creative mf, high tempo run up pitch, short pass to striker. Liverpool rarely knock it long to Salah but we’re described  as best counter attacking team in world. I’m in danger here of doing exactly what did before 😂 and reading too much into a comment. 

someone laughed at my tactics on the tactics forum which was very high press and counter. They said you’ve got no space to counter into cos you’re winning the ball so high up the pitch. Again surely that’s exactly what Liverpool do. Counter means get the ball to the opposition goal as quickly as you can. 

the ambiguity is doing my head in. I’ve head Trent Alexander Arnold and Andy Robertson with Kane up front for 6 months without one headed goal from a cross. I’m really struggling to get my head round this game. I’ve been playing for 20 years!!!

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[Johnny Ace]

@FulchesterFred don't confuse shorter passing with short passing

I can't remember the mentalities of the presets, but shorter passing with a Positive/Attacking team mentality, doesn't mean short passing

Higher up the mentalities, the more direct the team passing. This goes back to the slider days, think of Balanced with default passing, that's like the middle of a 1-20 scale, so 10. Positive on default passing is say a 12 (I can't remember), Positive with shorter passing just brings your passing down to 10, so the same passing directness as Balanced 

It's something like that anyway, sure someone will tell me it's wrong    

Something else that could be made clearer in game 

[herne79]

24 minutes ago, Haribo1681 said:

That's not quite true, because the desired intention of using an Advanced Forward was for him to play on the shoulder of the defender, ready to receive through balls from the midfield after patiently controlling possession, hence using PooD and shorter passing. There was never an intention to play on the break or utilise fast transitions, otherwise I would have switched counter attacks on and maybe more direct passing and higher tempo.

The suggestion was that using Advanced Forward 'clearly showed' that I was looking to play on the break which was never the case.

The words "Advanced Forward" were merely used to describe your striker.  If you had been using a Complete Forward or Poacher or Pressing Forward then those words would have used instead.  Perhaps it would have been better to just use the word "striker".  So no, the suggestion was never that you using an AF clearly showed you wanted to play on the break.  It was always about your use of TIs vs you (apparently) wanting to play on the break.  However as you say that assumed style of play was incorrect anyway .

23 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

so quick forward transitions can’t happen with short passing? Isn’t that exactly what Liverpool do IRL?

It can yes.  Adjusting Tempo would be one way.  However, when you adjust passing length it doesn't mean short passes or long passes, it means shorter or longer.

23 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

someone laughed at my tactics on the tactics forum which was very high press and counter. They said you’ve got no space to counter into cos you’re winning the ball so high up the pitch. Again surely that’s exactly what Liverpool do

That's a Counter Press (aka Gegenpress) which is very different from Counter Attacking football.  With a counter press you do indeed aim to win the ball high up the pitch, preferably in the opposition's half, and immediately attack from there.  With a counter attack you aim to drop deep, invite the opposition to over commit players forward before winning the ball back deep in your own half and breaking quickly from there.  This is why we have the "Counter" instruction separated from the "Counter Press" TI.

[FulchesterFred]

12 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The words "Advanced Forward" were merely used to describe your striker.  If you had been using a Complete Forward or Poacher or Pressing Forward then those words would have used instead.  Perhaps it would have been better to just use the word "striker".  So no, the suggestion was never that you using an AF clearly showed you wanted to play on the break.  It was always about your use of TIs vs you (apparently) wanting to play on the break.  However as you say that assumed style of play was incorrect anyway .

It can yes.  Adjusting Tempo would be one way.  However, when you adjust passing length it doesn't mean short passes or long passes, it means shorter or longer.

That's a Counter Press (aka Gegenpress) which is very different from Counter Attacking football.  With a counter press you do indeed aim to win the ball high up the pitch, preferably in the opposition's half, and immediately attack from there.  With a counter attack you aim to drop deep, invite the opposition to over commit players forward before winning the ball back deep in your own half and breaking quickly from there.  This is why we have the "Counter" instruction separated from the "Counter Press" TI.

So counter and counter press don’t necessarily work together?  I have a mid block in my save right now. With both counter and counter press. I assume that IS compatible 

sorry to be so persistent. It’s just you’re very helpful!

Edited September 1, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[HUNT3R]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

So counter and counter press don’t necessarily work together?  I have a mid block in my save right now. With both counter and counter press. I assume that IS compatible 

sorry to be so persistent. It’s just you’re very helpful!

"Classic" Barcelona did almost the opposite. Crazy counter pressing (using up most of their energy) and then taking it more easy on the ball with the tiki-taka endless passing.  

In FM, I don't usually counter press at all, but if I do and it's against someone fairly defensive, I don't have Counter on. They're already defensive. The minute I win the ball back, they all swarm back to defend, while my front 2/3 (depending on how the pressing went on, it might only be 1 or 2 players in reality) is up against double that amount of players. In that situation, it obviously doesn't make sense to counter attack, so I don't.

I'm not saying it's always wrong - as you said it's just a case of it's not necessarily a given that a combination of counter pressing and counter will/won't work.

Always pay attention to what's happening in your match, is the best advice I can give. 

[Haribo1681]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

1 hour ago, Haribo1681 said:

That's not quite true, because the desired intention of using an Advanced Forward was for him to play on the shoulder of the defender, ready to receive through balls from the midfield after patiently controlling possession, hence using PooD and shorter passing. There was never an intention to play on the break or utilise fast transitions, otherwise I would have switched counter attacks on and maybe more direct passing and higher tempo.

The suggestion was that using Advanced Forward 'clearly showed' that I was looking to play on the break which was never the case.

The words "Advanced Forward" were merely used to describe your striker.  If you had been using a Complete Forward or Poacher or Pressing Forward then those words would have used instead.  Perhaps it would have been better to just use the word "striker".  So no, the suggestion was never that you using an AF clearly showed you wanted to play on the break.  It was always about your use of TIs vs you (apparently) wanting to play on the break.  However as you say that assumed style of play was incorrect anyway .

I guess this just shows why those of us who aren't so experienced get confused when we receive guidance like this and then perpetuate myths around tactics. In any case, it's no big deal.

[CaptCanuck]

On 31/08/2021 at 08:01, zyfon5 said:

I played with defensive tactics for two seasons and was equally effective on both not sure if you have read the whole thread. If you want to see how a top team can play counter attacking football and excel with it I can share my recent save with Chelsea which broke all kinds of premier league records while having less than 50% possession while only having the 3rd best squad in the league but that would be boring compared to an underdog team which is the first two seasons when I managed West Brom. And the keeper that you mentioned immediately failed to perform elsewhere when I left the club so I am not sure how much he mattered. 

And these are quotes taken directly 'defending is failing', 'defending is almost impossible because when you are the weaker team...' and it is clear my tactics disagrees with their quotes. Whether the ME favours which type of playstyle is not what I replied and I respect your opinion on it.

Simeone and Mou do not play with defensive tactics all the time. They like any sensible coaches know that they have to be on the offensive end on some matches and vice versa is true. Playing with defensive tactics for the whole season will not get them anywhere and the FM world is also not exempted from this. At the same time I have also seen a fair share of people who played with ultra offensive tactics and failed with it.

Fair enough and thanks for the reply :-)

When I see a counter-attacking system such as yours or one that I used back in FM20, with Nuno's Wolves at the time as inspiration, while 'defensive' in the sense of sitting back and looking to counter with a quality QB style passer and quick transitions (effectively not being on the front foot so to speak), I guess I still don't necessarily equate them to the same type of 'defensiveness' the OP was initially talking about. That killing off of the game and knowing that 1-nil, 2-nil lead is ironclad and you will see out the last 20 mins of the match. I may need to go reread the earlier posts, but I was thinking of it in that sense.

[Haribo1681]

3 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Fair enough and thanks for the reply :-)

When I see a counter-attacking system such as yours or one that I used back in FM20, with Nuno's Wolves at the time as inspiration, while 'defensive' in the sense of sitting back and looking to counter with a quality QB style passer and quick transitions (effectively not being on the front foot so to speak), I guess I still don't necessarily equate them to the same type of 'defensiveness' the OP was initially talking about. That killing off of the game and knowing that 1-nil, 2-nil lead is ironclad and you will see out the last 20 mins of the match. I may need to go reread the earlier posts, but I was thinking of it in that sense.

That's it - my original feeling and inspiration for this thread was/is a feeling that it's more difficult to make a game tight and cagey, reducing the opposition's ability to create a host of chances, in FM than it is in real life. Playing counter-attacking football and exploiting fast transitions is a different conversation entirely.

[CaptCanuck]

3 hours ago, Haribo1681 said:

That's it - my original feeling and inspiration for this thread was/is a feeling that it's more difficult to make a game tight and cagey, reducing the opposition's ability to create a host of chances, in FM than it is in real life. Playing counter-attacking football and exploiting fast transitions is a different conversation entirely.

To the point of reducing opponent's chances - after using a back 3/5 for all of FM21, the past 1.5 seasons I switched to a 4-1-3-2 and have led/am leading the league in goals conceded/shots against, while also being top 3 in possession stats and at/near the top is goals for. Granted I have the 7th highest wage bill and a very good, deliberately constructed Brighton side in 2027/28, that could contend and win things with a myriad of tactics.

Anyhoo, for some food for thought, this is my current tactic. I normally concern myself with the attacking movement and having something that will create chances; however, in regards to keeping it tight:

• 'Regroup' along with being 'Narrow' to begin with helps keep us more compact and helps eliminate giving the opposition gaps they haven't earned through their play by having players chase after lost causes trying to regain possession
• Everyone bar the AF (as expected) contributes defensively. PF will drop into midfield and even though the IW is on attack, he's at the midfield level instead of the attacking level. It can almost turn us into a 4-5-1 defensively
• The anchorman as a general sweeper-upper and recycler helps prevent things before they start and can help clog things up, passing lane wise.
• My back 4 are all excellent, maybe I will run this with default 2020/21 Brighton and see how it goes, but really as Herne mentions above having the right players genuinely helps.
• General 'Balanced' mentality helps keep everyone from being too rash. I will drop to 'Cautious' now and again, but does that actually help us stifling the opponents attack... IDK

Edited September 1, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[FulchesterFred]

50 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

To the point of reducing opponent's chances - after using a back 3/5 for all of FM21, the past 1.5 seasons I switched to a 4-1-3-2 and have led/am leading the league in goals conceded/shots against, while also being top 3 in possession stats and at/near the top is goals for. Granted I have the 7th highest wage bill and a very good, deliberately constructed Brighton side in 2027/28, that could contend and win things with a myriad of tactics.

Anyhoo, for some food for thought, this is my current tactic. I normally concern myself with the attacking movement and having something that will create chances; however, in regards to keeping it tight:

• 'Regroup' along with being 'Narrow' to begin with helps keep us more compact and helps eliminate giving the opposition gaps they haven't earned through their play by having players chase after lost causes trying to regain possession
• Everyone bar the AF (as expected) contributes defensively. PF will drop into midfield and even though the IW is on attack, he's at the midfield level instead of the attacking level. It can almost turn us into a 4-5-1 defensively
• The anchorman as a general sweeper-upper and recycler helps prevent things before they start and can help clog things up, passing lane wise.
• My back 4 are all excellent, maybe I will run this with default 2020/21 Brighton and see how it goes, but really as Herne mentions above having the right players genuinely helps.
• General 'Balanced' mentality helps keep everyone from being too rash. I will drop to 'Cautious' now and again, but does that actually help us stifling the opponents attack... IDK

Interesting. I do think this version favours 2 up front. So even in a defensive set up it’s wise to have 2 strikers

[darthrodent]

On 30/08/2021 at 18:26, Johnny Ace said:

@darthrodent After many runs with the Blues, I'd love to see your tactic. I did it once, Leko was a god for some reason 

Sorry, mate not trying to be rude ignoring you -- haven't been on much the past few days. I'm happy to discuss or share my tactic with you.

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, darthrodent said:

Sorry, mate not trying to be rude ignoring you -- haven't been on much the past few days. I'm happy to discuss or share my tactic with you.

No worries!! Could you post a screenie up or PM me it, if you wouldn't mind? Be interested to have a look 

[FulchesterFred]

It happens again and again and again. Playing away from home against slightly inferior opponent. Go slightly defensive. Get battered. High class defenders have a nightmare. I ask my team to close down richarlison so obviously he scores twice in first 15 with no one around him in area. If SI created, as they program it, a manual explaining positions, pressing, marking etc this would be less painful. But they rely on goodwill. 

I literally have no idea why this failed so comprehensively. Which is why the game is failing the light user. It’s repetitive and boring.

one thing I’ve noticed is that if an opposition striker scores early he gets a massive boost and often becomes unplayable. That’s ridiculous.

[Pasonen]

45 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

It happens again and again and again. Playing away from home against slightly inferior opponent. Go slightly defensive. Get battered. High class defenders have a nightmare. I ask my team to close down richarlison so obviously he scores twice in first 15 with no one around him in area. If SI created, as they program it, a manual explaining positions, pressing, marking etc this would be less painful. But they rely on goodwill. 

I literally have no idea why this failed so comprehensively. Which is why the game is failing the light user. It’s repetitive and boring.

one thing I’ve noticed is that if an opposition striker scores early he gets a massive boost and often becomes unplayable. That’s ridiculous.

Hey could you upload .pkm  of this game. I would like to watch it. Not to analyze what you're doing wrong but out of interest see how ME represents this kind of match.

[zyfon5]

59 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

It happens again and again and again. Playing away from home against slightly inferior opponent. Go slightly defensive. Get battered. High class defenders have a nightmare. I ask my team to close down richarlison so obviously he scores twice in first 15 with no one around him in area. If SI created, as they program it, a manual explaining positions, pressing, marking etc this would be less painful. But they rely on goodwill. 

I literally have no idea why this failed so comprehensively. Which is why the game is failing the light user. It’s repetitive and boring.

one thing I’ve noticed is that if an opposition striker scores early he gets a massive boost and often becomes unplayable. That’s ridiculous.

You are still making the same mistake over and over again. Not sure why you expect different results. Notice how you have significantly higher possession than the other team but they have similar amount of shots as you in all the screenshots. To summarize your tactic: it is like asking the other team to come and attack freely and you are going to give away possession to them at dangerous areas while you have no intent to attack. It is no wonder you still lose despite having such a good team. SI will not be able to help you. I suggest you to start looking at tactical videos to get a grasp of the tactical aspect of the game. Understand what are transitions and why are they important in the modern game, different types of marking schemes, what are low and middle blocks, how different managers organize their defences, what are the underlying principles in defending. Once you have understood them things will be clearer to you.

[zyfon5]

21 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Hey could you upload .pkm  of this game. I would like to watch it. Not to analyze what you're doing wrong but out of interest see how ME represents this kind of match.

I am going to wager a guess what you will see in the pkm. His team will have lots of possession passing around without any effective offence. Meanwhile, the other team will simply capitalize on mistakes during turnover of possession around the midfield area and destroy his team from transitions. Calvert Lewin will act as a support striker taking all the attention of his defence leaving both wingers from Everton to do the damage due to his narrow defence. And notice how Richarlison playing on the right completely destroy his left sided defence due to the roles that he have chosen. Let me know if I guess correctly.

[FulchesterFred]

53 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Hey could you upload .pkm  of this game. I would like to watch it. Not to analyze what you're doing wrong but out of interest see how ME represents this kind of match.

Sadly I can’t. I play FMT on iPad and it doesn’t offer highlights. It was taken away for some strange reason. Means it’s less easy to analyse.

[FulchesterFred]

34 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

I am going to wager a guess what you will see in the pkm. His team will have lots of possession passing around without any effective offence. Meanwhile, the other team will simply capitalize on mistakes during turnover of possession around the midfield area and destroy his team from transitions. Calvert Lewin will act as a support striker taking all the attention of his defence leaving both wingers from Everton to do the damage due to his narrow defence. And notice how Richarlison playing on the right completely destroy his left sided defence due to the roles that he have chosen. Let me know if I guess correctly.

The first goal wasn’t a transition. Everton played long ball to left wing and cross from there got to richarlison. Who was unmarked 5 yards out despite playing narrow and deep. And supposedly having him closed down.
I have 3 class players in mf. They should be able to withstand Everton’s gentle press. I have two attacking runners up front with Kane coming deep and narrow to support the midfield. I’m not too high DFL so in a transition I shouldn’t be caught cold. Actually I’ve put some thought into this.

so I shouldn’t man mark calvert Lewin? And I shouldn’t do short passing despite having great technicians? No I don’t get it. Nor would any person who hasn’t done a coaching guide.

I seriously fail to see why this is such a horrible formation and tactic. I don’t have time to study videos. I wouldn’t have time to play civilisation VI if I needed to learn the game by YouTube.

 

btw the possession is slightly skewed as they went down to 10 men

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[zyfon5]

9 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

The first goal wasn’t a transition. Everton played long ball to left wing and cross from there got to richarlison. Who was unmarked 5 yards out despite playing narrow and deep.

Look at the roles that you have chosen at your left wing (which is Everton's right wing) have you wondered why Richarlison was unmarked there time and time again while you are able to contain any attack coming from the other side?

 

13 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

I’m not too high DFL so in a transition I shouldn’t be caught cold. Actually I’ve put some thought into this.

You can still concede from a transition no matter how deep you play. Let's say your CB make a mistake by passing the ball to the opponent striker close to your goal. He could easily just dribble a few feet and get a good shot despite your deep defensive line. The closer to your own goal, the more costly these mistakes tend to be and by playing a deep defensive line these mistakes tend to be closer to your goal. You will need to balance out the risk. Sean Dyche knows that Burnley cannot make these mistakes and always instruct the CB to hoof the ball up when they are pressured because he understands the risk associated with playing a low block.

 

21 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

 And I shouldn’t do short passing despite having great technicians? No I don’t get it. Nor would any person who hasn’t done a coaching guide.

You absolutely can use possession as a defensive tool. In my journeyman save when I was managing Trinita in Japan, I realize that the team only have technical players and hence designed a defensive tactic that won the league with the best defence while only 6th best in offence with close to 60% average possession. 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws were common occurences throughout the season.

 

26 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

btw the possession is slightly skewed as they went down to 10 men

no matter they are 11 men, 10 men or 9 men the principles of defending is still the same. And they are down a man in the 70th minute I doubt that skewed the possession so much.

32 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

I seriously fail to see why this is such a horrible formation and tactic. I don’t have time to study videos. I wouldn’t have time to play civilisation VI if I needed to learn the game by YouTube.

And I have said before playing defensive football is a very delicate balancing act which requires a lot of tactical knowledge. If you really do not have time to study a lot about football, do yourself a favor and just use those tactics that you can be proactive instead of having to react to events in matches.

[FulchesterFred]

3 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Look at the roles that you have chosen at your left wing (which is Everton's right wing) have you wondered why Richarlison was unmarked there time and time again while you are able to contain any attack coming from the other side?

 

You can still concede from a transition no matter how deep you play. Let's say your CB make a mistake by passing the ball to the opponent striker close to your goal. He could easily just dribble a few feet and get a good shot despite your deep defensive line. The closer to your own goal, the more costly these mistakes tend to be and by playing a deep defensive line these mistakes tend to be closer to your goal. You will need to balance out the risk. Sean Dyche knows that Burnley cannot make these mistakes and always instruct the CB to hoof the ball up when they are pressured because he understands the risk associated with playing a low block.

 

You absolutely can use possession as a defensive tool. In my journeyman save when I was managing Trinita in Japan, I realize that the team only have technical players and hence designed a defensive tactic that won the league with the best defence while only 6th best in offence with close to 60% average possession. 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws were common occurences throughout the season.

 

no matter they are 11 men, 10 men or 9 men the principles of defending is still the same. And they are down a man in the 70th minute I doubt that skewed the possession so much.

And I have said before playing defensive football is a very delicate balancing act which requires a lot of tactical knowledge. If you really do not have time to study a lot about football, do yourself a favor and just use those tactics that you can be proactive instead of having to react to events in matches.

My LB is full back on support duty. Hardly roberto Carlos! He’s got strong defensive stats. It’s his job to stifle richarlison surely. And giminez that close to goal whose a great CB. I really don’t understand any other problems with my left flank? Is mezzala too attacking. Camvinga is defensively excellent . Kane works hard.  

In terms of what you say about defending needing more knowledge then SI have to ask themselves some serious questions. FMT is about tactics but they’ve taken away highlights, a lot of analysis, half time break often skips, stats are often incorrect and you can’t click on a player during the match to find out who they are. All things which worked in previous versions. By using the full fat engine but removing a lot of our analysis they’re actually chopping our legs off. 
I would be seriously concerned from a developer perspective that you can only properly defend on FM through deep study of tactics. 
 

@zyfon5i always appreciate your comments and advice btw. Hope that’s clear. Just having a frank conversation 
 

 

[Johnny Ace]

DMs & DLPs seem to be a running theme around here lately!

3 man midfield 1)destroyer 2) runner 3) creator 

Change the DLP to an AP or something, he doesn't need to hold position in the middle of the park when there's an Anchor Man sat one strata behind him. You need someone from midfield attacking the box from deep

Fullback's on Support are tame when there's a DM & both wide players are cutting in, get them up field to provide some width  

AP(S) & CF(A) both roam, I'd want one of them dedicated to scoring. Kane's only interested in creating, Parrot's interested in creating & scoring, Pedri's main focus in running & creating   

[FulchesterFred]

10 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

DMs & DLPs seem to be a running theme around here lately!

3 man midfield 1)destroyer 2) runner 3) creator 

Change the DLP to an AP or something, he doesn't need to hold position in the middle of the park when there's an Anchor Man sat one strata behind him. You need someone from midfield attacking the box from deep

Fullback's on Support are tame when there's a DM & both wide players are cutting in, get them up field to provide some width  

AP(S) & CF(A) both roam, I'd want one of them dedicated to scoring. Kane's only interested in creating, Parrot's interested in creating & scoring, Pedri's main focus in running & creating   

Cheers!!!

I get everything but……..if my FBs attack doesn’t that leave me even more exposed to the Mersey Messi, Richarlison?

parrott as poacher? Seems to be the only position up front entirely dedicated to scoring 

Edited September 3, 2021 by FulchesterFred

[Johnny Ace]

35 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

Cheers!!!

I get everything but……..if my FBs attack doesn’t that leave me even more exposed to the Mersey Messi, Richarlison?

parrott as poacher? Seems to be the only position up front entirely dedicated to scoring 

I was thinking more in the offensive stage, they won't get all that forward or stretch the opposition, they'll sit deep & look to lay the ball off & cross from deep which is nice but you could at least send one of them forward. Allowing them to get more forward means Richarlison has to track back to mark them 

Poacher's best with paired with another striker, so the other guy can do the hard work & all the poacher has to worry about is getting on the end of things. I'm thinking more AF(A), PF(A) or DLF(A) paired with an IF(A). Complete Forwards are an awesome role, even just pairing the CF(A) with an IF(A) would be an offensive improvement so long as both are capable.

 

[Haribo1681]

1 hour ago, Johnny Ace said:

DMs & DLPs seem to be a running theme around here lately!

3 man midfield 1)destroyer 2) runner 3) creator 

Change the DLP to an AP or something, he doesn't need to hold position in the middle of the park when there's an Anchor Man sat one strata behind him. You need someone from midfield attacking the box from deep

Fullback's on Support are tame when there's a DM & both wide players are cutting in, get them up field to provide some width  

AP(S) & CF(A) both roam, I'd want one of them dedicated to scoring. Kane's only interested in creating, Parrot's interested in creating & scoring, Pedri's main focus in running & creating   

Just echoing this re: central midfielders, this page of Guide to FM has made a huge difference to my general play and enjoyment of the game, it's well worth a read: https://www.guidetofm.com/tactics/central-midfielders/

[FulchesterFred]

19 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I was thinking more in the offensive stage, they won't get all that forward or stretch the opposition, they'll sit deep & look to lay the ball off & cross from deep which is nice but you could at least send one of them forward. Allowing them to get more forward means Richarlison has to track back to mark them 

Poacher's best with paired with another striker, so the other guy can do the hard work & all the poacher has to worry about is getting on the end of things. I'm thinking more AF(A), PF(A) or DLF(A) paired with an IF(A). Complete Forwards are an awesome role, even just pairing the CF(A) with an IF(A) would be an offensive improvement so long as both are capable.

 

But how best to deal with richarlison btw? Always mark, always press?? Your thoughts appreciated 

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, FulchesterFred said:

But how best to deal with richarlison btw? Always mark, always press?? Your thoughts appreciated 

Hard tackle him, the guy's a nut job 

[Johnny Ace]

1 hour ago, Haribo1681 said:

Just echoing this re: central midfielders, this page of Guide to FM has made a huge difference to my general play and enjoyment of the game, it's well worth a read: https://www.guidetofm.com/tactics/central-midfielders/

Guide to FM is fantastic, the RMT app thingy's really good too 

[Haribo1681]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Guide to FM is fantastic, the RMT app thingy's really good too 

I get almost as obsessed with RMT as FM!

[FulchesterFred]

3 hours ago, Haribo1681 said:

I get almost as obsessed with RMT as FM!

RMT?

[Haribo1681]

59 minutes ago, FulchesterFred said:

RMT?

Rate My Tactic: https://ratemytactic.web.app

It's an app that you can use to assess your tactic on FM based on the guidance in Guide to FM. It's not perfect by any means, but it's interesting. I use it a lot to test out different formations and playing styles to give me a starting place.

[GreenTriangle]

22 hours ago, FulchesterFred said:

It happens again and again and again. Playing away from home against slightly inferior opponent. Go slightly defensive. Get battered. High class defenders have a nightmare. I ask my team to close down richarlison so obviously he scores twice in first 15 with no one around him in area. If SI created, as they program it, a manual explaining positions, pressing, marking etc this would be less painful. But they rely on goodwill. 

I literally have no idea why this failed so comprehensively. Which is why the game is failing the light user. It’s repetitive and boring.

one thing I’ve noticed is that if an opposition striker scores early he gets a massive boost and often becomes unplayable. That’s ridiculous.

This happened in 2016 in England (Leicester) and in 2021 in France (Lille). Two "slightly inferior" teams won the title in a deeply boring way. World-class defenders have not been able to reduce effectiveness of some strikers such as Vardy or Yilmaz. Ridiculous. FM should in no way simulate such a thing.

[FulchesterFred]

10 minutes ago, GreenTriangle said:

This happened in 2016 in England (Leicester) and in 2021 in France (Lille). Two "slightly inferior" teams won the title in a deeply boring way. World-class defenders have not been able to reduce effectiveness of some strikers such as Vardy or Yilmaz. Ridiculous. FM should in no way simulate such a thing.

I see what you did there. Very clever. And I don’t do sarcasm.

my point if you read the thread is not that it’s happening. It’s more how to counter it on FM/ FMT without reading dozens of manuals.

there is too much ambiguity. No one has ever really explained always mark and always press. Vital things. Above @zyfon5criticised me for tight marking Calvert lewin as a DLF but I had anchor man so why my DFs following him. I didn’t ask either to specifically mark.

obviously defensive teams win. I want to be one because always attacking to win trophies gets repetitive. but some people have suggested you only win defensively on FM if you really study tactics. I don’t have the time to do that for a game.

I suggest you read from the top to understand the thrust of this thread.

cheers.

[GreenTriangle]

Man. This is exactly the mechanism that allows a human player to take over a team from the 6th league and win the national title after 10 years. If this mechanism were abolished then it would be easier for you to win trophies (*) when you manage strong teams ... but for others it would be much more difficult (maybe even impossible) to achieve great performances with small teams.

(*) because weaker teams would create much less issues for you.

As an idea, why do you think a 100-page explanation of what "mark" and "press" means would be much more useful to you? They are dynamic, they depend on many factors, including the morale and other characteristics of players. How can such a dynamic system be explained ?

Not. The winner is the combination of "good players" + "tactical configurations compatible with these players" + strategies compatible with that club / players / competition context. You can win using both an more offensive and a more defensive tactical configuration ... provided the players and strategy are appropriate.

Edited September 4, 2021 by GreenTriangle

[herne79]

These threads from the Tactics forum might help:

A guide to defending like a real 442

Basic principles of defending (an unofficial guide for tactical beginners)

The School of the Defensive Arts

The School Of Defensive Arts 2015

The Art of Counter Attacking

Some of them may be a few years old now but the principles discussed remain unchanged.