Help please, awfully struggling with tactics

[flauta kicma]

All of this screenshots are wrong.

 

Firstly, i got sacked with Arsenal, now I am playing with Roma, I believe none of this tactics are horror ones, I really believe that set up of roles and instructions is not horrendous, not the best, but not plain awful, but... results are awful. Please help me. It is driving me crazy, it is just so hard. When I come home from work I expect to relax, and this feeling is awful, every game new struggle....

I am mostly struggling with some kind of patterns:

- when I am playing wide does that means that I need to play direct passing and quick tempo? And when I am playing narrow it is shorter passing? And what about roles - winger are when playing wider, and IF/IW when playing narrower? What with central midfieders?

Everything is now so mixed up to me.... Is there any good video with explanations? Or article? Please dont link me those one who will tell me what mezzala means, i need to know how to implement it into game. I need to know some patterns, some thing that games like, because I am ghoing nowhere now

 

P.S.

The screenshot I posted are not here because i want some strict help, they are here just to show you in which direction i am doing something wrong. I just need advise, maybe to learn more about patterns, about the thing that games like...

 

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by flauta kicma

[freddieos]

check out @RashidiYoutube channel - lots of videos explaining tactics and player roles etc.

A guy called Zealand on Youtube (search it) also just released a video comparing and testing best tactics for FM21.

Then you have whizzkid @RDF Tactics on Fmscout's Youtube channel. He has tons of videos explaining in detail how to set up a tactic that best suits your squad.

[Justified]

Why did you buy FM21? I remember you had a thread last year on FM20 where you almost broke down

Overall you're not really paying attention to players in your team. Some tactics have more direct passing with work into box which doesn't make sense at all. You have no clear direction how you want to play, they're all "keep possession counter tactics".

Most likely you lost against Benevento because they were cautious, you were bombing balls forward quick and very direct and in midfield you have an attacking AP, with a roaming midfielder and a HB so not really anyone covering the middle of the park.

[FMunderachiever]

I think the best idea might be start with the preset that resembles the style of football youd like to play and then gradually tinker with instructions and roles to fine tune it.

 

 

[luka_zg]

Tactic against Benevento, do you understand how it looks when you have the ball? It looks something like this:

http://lineupbuilder.com/?sk=vy53r

So now, you have higher tempo and direct passing and no space at all for this kind of aggressive play because Benevento will be parking the bus and you will lose possesion by forcing direct balls and play right into their hands. They win possesion and just go direct to their forwards who will have a lot of space to exploit behind your defence and midfield. You will essentially have 7 players in front of the ball in the moment they launch their counter attack. And it shows, 7 shots with 6 on target and 4 goals scored. That means they had all the space in the world for their gameplan. I'd play shorter passing and slower tempo, one runner from midfield is enough, so switch AP to support, make the left winger IW so your attacking fullback will overlap when the IW cuts inside. I'd think to make striker on support maybe and if you're going to play counter press and urgent pressing with high LOE you can aswell prevent their GK from playing out the back too. Try that and remove work ball into box because you don't need it with shorter passing, See if that helps.

[FMunderachiever]

If i was to offer advice, the very first place i would suggest is, in none of your tactics do you defend the space between your defence and midfield.

The oppositions "number 10" position if you want to call it that way.

Your HB drops in to make a back 3 whilst your 2 central midfielders always push up.

As long as the opponent can nick the ball off you, they can play one or two direct passes and they are straight in on goal.

 

Im not an expert on the game by any means. 

 

Id suggest the tactic that you lost to Bologna with was your best one, but in that tactic the combination of playing wide and counter pressing wont help. You are asking your players to close down immediately after losing the ball and if your players are all strung out, there will be gaps that good teams can pass the ball around you into.

But on your Roma losing to Bologna tactic, your right side is very exposed. Complete wing back + mezzala on attack means absolutely no one is defending down your right side.

 

Players dont need to be set to "attack" to attack....if that makes sense. their PPM's, the formation around them, the overall mentality determines how "attacking" they are too. Merely setting players to "attack" has them trying to get onto the end of passes whilst abandoning the shape of the team

[Tsuru]

I am not an expert on the game at all, but all those tactics look like random choices. FM doesn´t work as it did before, it has changed a lot on the past 15 years - from a "rich and detailed Elifoot" to a "real football simulator" - and it´s not a matter of just finding a tactic and winning everything anymore. You have to think about your tactics and even if they work you will have to adapt during games.

Why don´t you start simple? Give a look at the three best players on your squad (according to the assistant report), look at their best atributes and see what they do best. They are good midfielders with nice passing and concentration? Maybe a possession oriented game can work. The best ones are quick and agile strikers/wingers? Oh, then a quick counter/direct football strategy might do well. 

Build the formation and the strategy around the three best ones, than you can start thinking about the instructions - the less, the best. Then play some matches, see what is working and what is not, try to understand how to adapt during matches - what instructions would you change if loosing or winning? - and evaluate the tactic. 

Just another way of seeing things. It helped me, maybe it can help you too.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Tsuru

[Rashidi]

My advice is not to download a tactic, but to begin with a preset. When you download a tactic, even mine, they may come with a particular style of a set of players I am keen on assembling. This may not hold for everyone. 

Two I don't believe there is anything like a best tactic out there that can you just plug, play and forget. The game has come some way in avoiding that as a weakness. Today's game expects you to behave like a manager and solve issues like morale and poor runs. Teams have better systems and now simply just plugging a tactic into your team is not a good idea.

A good way to start is by hiring a good assistant manager who has good judging player ability. Now clear all tactics from your folder and just begin with a preset, these are pretty solid. The assistant manager makes some recommendations, just choose one that you like which comes with thumbs up from him. Don't use any PIs and don't add any Tis. Try and understand the roles and observe how they play, 

Have a home and away tactic, then let your assistant manager advise you on squad selection.  His recommendations are a lot better than last year. Play a few games and if you want to change a TI, remove one to see if you see a discernible effect  Make small changes to learn the game.

As far as transitions go, study how team builds up play, where it loses the ball and identify/guess what could have gone wrong. It could have been a range of things, so sometimes  being able to deconstruct things is a good way to learn how something works.

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

when I am playing wide does that means that I need to play direct passing and quick tempo?

No. When I play wide(r), I only tend to avoid shorter passing, which does not mean that it has to be direct. Standard is also okay.

Tempo can be any, it's not tied in with width. 

12 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

And when I am playing narrow it is shorter passing?

Again no. You can play a counter-attacking style with narrow(er) width and more direct passing for example. Not saying that you should necessarily use that particular combo, just giving an example. You can combine narrow width with any passing style, all depends on what you want to achieve with your tactic. The only thing you should not do is to view tactical elements in isolation from one another.

[flauta kicma]

Guys, thank you all for your suggestions. I will read all and check the videos, so will feel free to adress new things... Thanks once again

[flauta kicma]

 

12 hours ago, Rashidi said:

My advice is not to download a tactic, but to begin with a preset. When you download a tactic, even mine, they may come with a particular style of a set of players I am keen on assembling. This may not hold for everyone. 

....

 

You are BusttheNet?? I didnt know untill Freddious mentioned it. You had great videos for FM 2020, it was really helping . I saw your 3 hour long video for 2021 about team instructions, I am at half of it. You have great observations, and you say things clearly, many of others are talking theoretical what does AP mean in real life, and you say it in terms of FM. Bravo for your work! And thank you for this advices...

 

I read all of others comments too...

 

@Justified, bought it because I love the game. Playing it from 2000., and stopped in 2014., and again started in 2020, so this 6 years are the problem. But, I really believe that some thing are too strong for casual fan, sometimes when you come from work you want only something to relax you, not in arcade way, but maybe in FM 2012 way.

 

@freddieosthanks for videos, I know about Zeeland, about Rashidi I wrote in the beggining of post, will explore RDF Tactics, it seems very interesting.

 

@luka_zg, @FMunderachiever, @Tsuru,  @Experienced Defender - thank you all for your advices, it all now seems so logical. I will try something... 

 

But in the same time all of this seems - hard. :/ Is it always neccesary to think about all of this details or it is like with driving, at first it seems hard, but later, when you figure one thing out, every other is mostly easier? All of these sounds hard... and i see people on Facebook groups that are doing great, and those people are not theoretically strong like you, and they don't cheat, it seems like for others things are easier. Okay, now I am turning into philosophy, no need for that.

I want to say, I know the game is different from 2010., and it is in good way, but again, it would be nice to have some kind of patterns, scheme, I managed to do it generally speaking on FM 2020, hope will do it here also...

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by flauta kicma

[smbabur911]

You have to think like a football manager to win more in this version. Which is good for many but not that good for many. Also many bugs. Going towards a realistic simulation seems a good idea but the life of manager and imo football itself is very tedious. So i can understand your frustration. Tedious life in an office than back to the tediousness and frustration of FM.  But that's what many people wanted. A path towards a realistic simulation. But looking at how depressed managers get when they are not winning (eg Jose at United) and the only thing which keeps them going is the humongous salaries. So imo there should be a balance between realism and fantasy. Too realistic and casual gamers will go away. Too easy and hardcore gamers will switch off. Very interesting to see what happens.

[Tsuru]

15 horas atrás, flauta kicma disse:

But in the same time all of this seems - hard. :/ Is it always neccesary to think about all of this details or it is like with driving, at first it seems hard, but later, when you figure one thing out, every other is mostly easier? All of these sounds hard... and i see people on Facebook groups that are doing great, and those people are not theoretically strong like you, and they don't cheat, it seems like for others things are easier. Okay, now I am turning into philosophy, no need for that.

I want to say, I know the game is different from 2010., and it is in good way, but again, it would be nice to have some kind of patterns, scheme, I managed to do it generally speaking on FM 2020, hope will do it here also...

I thought it was hard too. Then I asked for help here, developed a formation (with roles and duties) and learned how I used the tactical creator for the team to do not just what I wanted, but what was possible regarding our level and our players: defend deep and counter quick and fast. The team was scoring fast and effectively, but other teams were pressing us hard and scoring goals on high pressing, so reading here I figured it out some ideas to control the match when I am winning. At the moment it looks simple to me - I have a starting counter strategy, I score goals and then I use instructions to pass the ball slow and control the game.

I am improving the second step and starting to think about the third one - and if I suffer a goal first, what should I do? I am not sure if I should stick to the counter strategy and just attack at the end of the match if I am still loosing, or if I should attack immediately. But in this case it depends - loosing 1-0 is one thing, loosing 3-0 is another one completely different.

While I was testing and learning, I moved from a 4-4-2 to a 4-4-1-1 - because one of my best players was now a Shadow Striker -, back to a 4-4-2 because the SS doesn´t look very suited for counters, and now I moved to a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide to give us a five men midfield in defense and three strikers upfront to use speed and launch the counters. I also tested some ideas from Rashidi in defence, like the defensive width and individual marking on opposing players, but I decided to play without them because it looked defensively more solid.

Do you see? After much testing and evolution, it now looks much more simple because I generally know what instructions I should change in each point of the match in order to do what it´s needed, and I know that there is nothing wrong with the tactic itself, it´s working the best way possible. As you said it´s like driving, after much testing and learning things become automatic and much easier.

Give it a try, this is a very good game and worth it.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Tsuru

[Justified]

16 hours ago, flauta kicma said:

 

 

You are BusttheNet?? I didnt know untill Freddious mentioned it. You had great videos for FM 2020, it was really helping . I saw your 3 hour long video for 2021 about team instructions, I am at half of it. You have great observations, and you say things clearly, many of others are talking theoretical what does AP mean in real life, and you say it in terms of FM. Bravo for your work! And thank you for this advices...

 

I read all of others comments too...

 

@Justified, bought it because I love the game. Playing it from 2000., and stopped in 2014., and again started in 2020, so this 6 years are the problem. But, I really believe that some thing are too strong for casual fan, sometimes when you come from work you want only something to relax you, not in arcade way, but maybe in FM 2012 way.

 

@freddieosthanks for videos, I know about Zeeland, about Rashidi I wrote in the beggining of post, will explore RDF Tactics, it seems very interesting.

 

@luka_zg, @FMunderachiever, @Tsuru,  @Experienced Defender - thank you all for your advices, it all now seems so logical. I will try something... 

 

But in the same time all of this seems - hard. :/ Is it always neccesary to think about all of this details or it is like with driving, at first it seems hard, but later, when you figure one thing out, every other is mostly easier? All of these sounds hard... and i see people on Facebook groups that are doing great, and those people are not theoretically strong like you, and they don't cheat, it seems like for others things are easier. Okay, now I am turning into philosophy, no need for that.

I want to say, I know the game is different from 2010., and it is in good way, but again, it would be nice to have some kind of patterns, scheme, I managed to do it generally speaking on FM 2020, hope will do it here also...

 

Maybe you should play the Touch version then? If you want to play more casually then the full fat game might not be for you. Only a suggestion.

[flauta kicma]

On 16/12/2020 at 15:52, Tsuru said:

I thought it was hard too. Then I asked for help here, developed a formation (with roles and duties) and learned how I used the tactical creator for the team to do not just what I wanted, but what was possible regarding our level and our players: defend deep and counter quick and fast. The team was scoring fast and effectively, but other teams were pressing us hard and scoring goals on high pressing, so reading here I figured it out some ideas to control the match when I am winning. At the moment it looks simple to me - I have a starting counter strategy, I score goals and then I use instructions to pass the ball slow and control the game.

I am improving the second step and starting to think about the third one - and if I suffer a goal first, what should I do? I am not sure if I should stick to the counter strategy and just attack at the end of the match if I am still loosing, or if I should attack immediately. But in this case it depends - loosing 1-0 is one thing, loosing 3-0 is another one completely different.

While I was testing and learning, I moved from a 4-4-2 to a 4-4-1-1 - because one of my best players was now a Shadow Striker -, back to a 4-4-2 because the SS doesn´t look very suited for counters, and now I moved to a 4-1-4-1 DM Wide to give us a five men midfield in defense and three strikers upfront to use speed and launch the counters. I also tested some ideas from Rashidi in defence, like the defensive width and individual marking on opposing players, but I decided to play without them because it looked defensively more solid.

Do you see? After much testing and evolution, it now looks much more simple because I generally know what instructions I should change in each point of the match in order to do what it´s needed, and I know that there is nothing wrong with the tactic itself, it´s working the best way possible. As you said it´s like driving, after much testing and learning things become automatic and much easier.

Give it a try, this is a very good game and worth it.

Thank you for this post. I really understand you and it is nice to see that someone think in that way. Yes, I love this game so much, and want to learn it to play properly, but yes - sometimes there is so much combinations there... Hope I'll manage it.

 

@justifeid

I just want to have proper experience of Fm 2021...

[flauta kicma]

Hey again, it is half season, after watching some videos, etc., this is situation.  I change it a lot. At home sometimes I go more wide, with wingers. And if I am favorite away I go narrower with IF. I I am underdog it is very defensive.

Sometimes I am changing mentlality of AMR, AML and AMC in combination of WB's mentallities. Sometimes I go "pass into space" and "run onto defence" when I am playing wider, or work ball into box when I am narrower (work ball into box doesn't work when I am going wider). 

So, it is nice.

But..

what is now next step to be even better? Many wins are 1:0, many of them are unconvincing... How to make it better starting from here? And how to make my striker better (when I am narrower he scores more)?

 

Where I can find something like how to adapt? Firstly, to opponent - when AI is playing with three at the back, with IF's, with wingers,  with two strikers etc., etc.? Second, what to change when I am struggling - when I see that I am not creating chances, that I am inactive....

Thanks in advance

Edited December 21, 2020 by flauta kicma

[Justified]

You've created space for the AMC but you're pushing him forward instead of letting him operate in that space. Play him on support and immediately he has 2 runners he can look for. If you have a winger on the right, that'd create a bit of variety and width. If you do then the RB has to play more of a support role otherwise you'll get countered to death. Possibly play Overlap Left.

Bare in mind as well that in Italy they play a lot of bottom heavy defensive formations, meaning an AMC will find it difficult to find space.

[energumene]

Il y a 11 heures, flauta kicma a dit :

Hey again, it is half season, after watching some videos, etc., this is situation.  I change it a lot. At home sometimes I go more wide, with wingers. And if I am favorite away I go narrower with IF. I I am underdog it is very defensive.

Sometimes I am changing mentlality of AMR, AML and AMC in combination of WB's mentallities. Sometimes I go "pass into space" and "run onto defence" when I am playing wider, or work ball into box when I am narrower (work ball into box doesn't work when I am going wider). 

So, it is nice.

But..

what is now next step to be even better? Many wins are 1:0, many of them are unconvincing... How to make it better starting from here? And how to make my striker better (when I am narrower he scores more)?

 

Where I can find something like how to adapt? Firstly, to opponent - when AI is playing with three at the back, with IF's, with wingers,  with two strikers etc., etc.? Second, what to change when I am struggling - when I see that I am not creating chances, that I am inactive....

Thanks in advance

If it works dont change it.

But if you feel it's overall unconvincing, then yeah, there are some things here and there I'd change if I were you.

- Change AP task to Support (and possibly choose some other role or position for him because as @Justified said, in Italy, I don't think he'll have much room to operate in this DM strata, even though this role often comes deeper to get the ball)

- Change the right back task to Support.

- Change DLP task to Defend.

- Not sure about the BPD... Have you tested two CDs - D ? 

I think you'll gain more possession and defensive solidness by doing so. So maybe more scoring opportunites for you and less conceded too.