Ever seen a team irl parking the bus away from home and constantly having 65% of possession and playing tiki taka like prime Barcelona?

[goku4]

19 minutes ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

In addition to BWMs or an AM, I've had some measure of success with both the CM-A and B2B roles when it comes to having four pressing up front. They tend to be in more advanced positions when you lose possession and thus able to join in the press sooner.

Against this sort of opposition have you considered pushing the DLP into the CM strata? 

Actually, I wanted to try that one in the scnd half of the season aswell. I also hope this way the two CMs playing close to the flanks would provide more help for the full backs. I tried a combination of CM(a) and bbm, I had some success against bayern etc. but the moment another 532 side came, I was lost againt...

[zyfon5]

55 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

The simple solution for high possession against weak teams in FM20 is to not use a 4141 but to change to 2 strikers like a 442 or even a 4231.

As I have said before there are inherent weakness to high pressing for lone striker formations. Naturally a more top heavy formation will be more suited to pressing. But with the right set up you can achieve numbers displayed by real life heavy possession teams even with a lone striker formation.

[goku4]

3 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

As I have said before there are inherent weakness to high pressing for lone striker formations. Naturally a more top heavy formation will be more suited to pressing. But with the right set up you can achieve numbers displayed by real life heavy possession teams even with a lone striker formation.

What exactly does influence player positioning in pressing the most? Team mentality, individual mentality, player role, or duties?

[Gegenklaus]

1 hour ago, goku4 said:

What exactly does influence player positioning in pressing the most? Team mentality, individual mentality, player role, or duties?

Its all relative but from personal experience its the position. 
 

Like you cant press as high with a flat 4-1-4-1 as you can with a say 4-2-3-1.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Gegenklaus

[goku4]

10 minutes ago, Gegenklaus said:

Its all relative but from personal experience its the position. 
 

Like you cant press as high with a flat 4-1-4-1 as you can with a say 4-2-3-1.

Got it, same probably applies to the 4123 with wingers, right? Wonder how liverpool can manage it so well irl. They also play with a 433 rather than a 4231

[zyfon5]

22 minutes ago, goku4 said:

Got it, same probably applies to the 4123 with wingers, right? Wonder how liverpool can manage it so well irl. They also play with a 433 rather than a 4231

Watch Liverpool's community shield match against Arsenal. their press were rendered ineffective by arsenal's 5atb and two midfielders. Liverpool's press also became quite ineffective towards the end of the season as teams began to line up in a double pivot or dropping an extra midfielder into their own half (which is exactly what Bielsa did) to play around their press.

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, goku4 said:

What exactly does influence player positioning in pressing the most? Team mentality, individual mentality, player role, or duties?

Mentality and player roles do influence player positioning but the most important factor in pressing is the overall defensive shape. A formation with one striker is always going to have trouble pressing against 3 CB for example.

[Gegenklaus]

5 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Mentality and player roles do influence player positioning but the most important factor in pressing is the overall defensive shape. A formation with one striker is always going to have trouble pressing against 3 CB for example.

Yep, totally agree. Thats where the chess game begins.

[denen123]

Genuinely curious. Have you tested all of the advice? Because personally there has been so much here. Do i get decent possession stats? Yes. Do i think it should be difficult with teams that are top tier against park the bus teams? No. It is just horrible that something like this occurs, where even the "Tiki Taka" presets have to be "tweaked" to obtain decent possession stats. The truth is, threads like these have become too common. Has the game ever been perfect? No. But this is too overwhelming to boil it down to just "your tactic". 

Again, the 4-1-4-1 Not being as possession friendly as a 4-2-3-1 is just confusing. Of course it is difficult to replicate a prime Barcelona/Liverpool press, but forcing individual pressing by 2 CM's is usually helpful. Sure your one ST gets "bypassed" easily, but you're less open in the midfield area. If your 2 wingers push hard on the opposition Fullbacks, you cut out the passing lanes even more. I have seen people on this forum achieve decent possession numbers with  4-1-4-1. The dominant issue is usually chance conversion.

Overall, it's a disappointing issue that will continue to get heavy criticism, as it should.

My advice is that you keep tweaking and watch more of BustTheNet videos(at least, before we get 21). There are other creative, but that's a good place to start when it comes to "pressing".

[goku4]

1 hour ago, denen123 said:

Genuinely curious. Have you tested all of the advice? Because personally there has been so much here. Do i get decent possession stats? Yes. Do i think it should be difficult with teams that are top tier against park the bus teams? No. It is just horrible that something like this occurs, where even the "Tiki Taka" presets have to be "tweaked" to obtain decent possession stats. The truth is, threads like these have become too common. Has the game ever been perfect? No. But this is too overwhelming to boil it down to just "your tactic". 

Again, the 4-1-4-1 Not being as possession friendly as a 4-2-3-1 is just confusing. Of course it is difficult to replicate a prime Barcelona/Liverpool press, but forcing individual pressing by 2 CM's is usually helpful. Sure your one ST gets "bypassed" easily, but you're less open in the midfield area. If your 2 wingers push hard on the opposition Fullbacks, you cut out the passing lanes even more. I have seen people on this forum achieve decent possession numbers with  4-1-4-1. The dominant issue is usually chance conversion.

Overall, it's a disappointing issue that will continue to get heavy criticism, as it should.

My advice is that you keep tweaking and watch more of BustTheNet videos(at least, before we get 21). There are other creative, but that's a good place to start when it comes to "pressing".

Honestly, couldnt have success with the tweaks  I tried without pass into space and counter and still did not change anything. Still got like 38% of possession against park the bus teams. I even played cautiously at home against relegation battler, which helped to improve possession stats but no goals scored. Maybe, I just dont understand the game  Have given up on that and will just try to tweak my former tactic which may be "too aggressive" for the likes of many people here but at least I can reach top four and a semi final in europa each year with it. Its also very funny that I had my worst year (based on goals conceded) in the one season where I changed my mentality from attack to control/balanced and my def. settings from high d-line and very high loe to high d-line and high/standard loe... I conceded 37 goals in my last season, while in all the other 5 seasons I never conceded more than 22 goals or so the whole season with FC Köln. Even though many people criticize these hung-up tactics as being too aggressive etc. the game itself does not allow you to play other than that. Its funny that you can concede less goals going completely attacking than trying to build a solid and well balanced tactic.

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, goku4 said:

in the one season where I changed my mentality from attack to control/balanced and my def. settings from high d-line and very high loe to high d-line and high/standard loe

Did you still have the counter pressing on?

[Bigshow1]

On 15/09/2020 at 00:19, goku4 said:

As I've written above, I dont wanna rant about me having not too much possession or losing. As the screenshots show, I am overachieving with FC Cologne, so no reason to cry. I just wanna understand how to press these kind of teams, as these are the only teams that cause heavy challenge. I have no problems going away and beating Bayern or Dortmund. I know, there is the way to not give away the ball easily and keep it, but there must be also a way of how to prevent these teams playing so much and so long at the back. I have attached some screenshots of the tactic I played for almost 4 seasons. I also attached the tactic which I have tweaked using recommendations from this forum. As you can see, the tweaks have helped me to rescue a season which I believed was lost again towards the end. Just wanna know whether the results were just luck or whether the tactic is balanced and has potential to overcome challenges such as these ultra-defensive possession heavy sides.

I’m no expert but I’d be dropping some of those TI’s straight away. You want to distribute the ball quickly And pass into space yet you play low tempo. Then you want to counter press but you don’t play with a higher line of engagement.

I’d stick with the top tactic but knock off pass into space, counter press, low tempo and defend narrower.
Just set your wide players to mark their fullbacks and start the matches on a balanced mentality for the first 20/25 minutes to get a feel for how things are going. If you’re controlling things and creating chances then leave it till half time. If you aren’t playing we’ll ramp it up to positive and take it to them a bit more. 
 

 

[goku4]

5 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Did you still have the counter pressing on?

Yes, but deactivated counter. Should I not play with counter pressing? Thought this would not influence my possession stats or process of creating chances. But I had counter press always activated. Even in my best defensive season.

[HUNT3R]

2 hours ago, goku4 said:

Yes, but deactivated counter. Should I not play with counter pressing? Thought this would not influence my possession stats or process of creating chances. But I had counter press always activated. Even in my best defensive season.

@goku4 I don't understand this. This is your 2nd thread about this issue.

You only need to check some of the advice here and your previous thread. Or watch a match when you don't have the ball. Your striker, in that formation, will have a lot to do on his own and often against 3 or 4 players in his zone. 1 player just cannot chase 3 or 4 players.

I've pointed this out in your previous thread

Quote

 

Or if you look at it another way - you're not giving them anywhere to go. It's not that they don't want to get forward - they are cautious and you're preventing them from really passing the ball forward, so they're forced into these safe passes. Is that what you're seeing in your matches?

The way I set up against teams like this is to not be extremely aggressive, defensively. However, as soon as they pass the ball forward, then I'm on them immediately. It sees me not only gaining possession quicker, but also having more space to use in an attacking sense.

 

 

Quote

 

On 17/08/2020 at 12:32, goku4 said:

Less aggressive is very subjective here. You're on an Attacking Mentality (which has heavy pressing by default) and you've increased that. Most importantly, you are still counter pressing so it's still very aggressive.

Like I asked earlier - 

  Quote

Or if you look at it another way - you're not giving them anywhere to go. It's not that they don't want to get forward - they are cautious and you're preventing them from really passing the ball forward, so they're forced into these safe passes. Is that what you're seeing in your matches?

Is that what you're seeing?

 

Quote

 

I am seeing 50%+ possession against defensive sides. In my season now, I am 32 matches in and I've failed to have more than 50% possession in 1 match. I'm not even conservative - scoring 3.5 goals per match and conceding 0.4 goals per match. That's on Positive Mentality, higher D-Line, higher LoE, extremely urgent pressing and no 'counter' or 'counter-pressing'. 

Why didn't I add these? I never needed to. I tried it during a match once, against a defensive team and found we're endlessly pressing with no result. The team is too conservative and too deep. Rushing with 2 or 3 players after the ball carrier, just opened up easy passing options sideways or back to the keeper. So it was obvious - if it's not working and I can see it isn't - why do it? I still press heavily but a bit later and not mindlessly just after 1 player. I also let my players decide when a counter is on or not because against defensive teams, it isn't always - as they're defensive.

I'm just highlighting an issue that I saw and what I did to 'fix' it and also why I did what I did.

 

Post #8, #10 and #15 of your original thread. I answered your question that early into it.

 

 

 

@herne79 has also mentioned this more than once in the previous thread and here. A great comment was here:

Quote

4) Pressing.  If 2) and 3) above are right, this should become the natural result.  But as mentioned above, it's about pressing in the right areas of the pitch which I feel is missing at the moment.  You have a press but in the wrong area and because you are effectively blocking passing lanes the opposition just pass it around at the back, running rings around your lone striker.  If you watch matches I'll bet the opposition do try to move the ball forwards, but they'll get pressed in midfield with passing lanes blocked and so end up passing backwards.

 

---

You posted that your actual issue is that the AI keeps the ball too much. In both threads now, you've been told why you're struggling. Simply put - your pressing is ineffective. 

As mentioned in the quote above - I used (a few seasons ago now, but still against all teams, attacking and defensive) the same formation as you and had no issues. I have posted that formation/tactic before to show you the difference. I tried counter-pressing for a part of a match ONCE. I saw that I'm cutting off passing lanes and then sending a single striker to press 2x DCs and a DM - with no result. I then abandoned that idea because I could see it doesn't work. The route I went (I'm sure there are other ways too) was to lure them forward, to around the halfway line and THEN press heavily. Often, it would be my midfielders pressing theirs, my striker making passing backwards difficult and the wide players covering their opposition so passes out wide is also more difficult.

---

I've since changed formation and still not counter (because I'd rather my players decide) or counter-pressing (because of defensive teams), even though I have an extra player at the front now compared to the 4123. I just played a match to make it 65 unbeaten, including a CL win last season and the league for 5 years (4 of them with this tactic) straight.

With the formation I have now, I have no doubt I could counter press, so it's not that I'm saying it is always a bad idea. I'm saying if you literally see something being a problem - do something about it. I just prefer not to counter press with this as I like to have that little bit more room when I do win the ball, so I have space to attack into.

 

And yes, even the defensive teams get forward - they just try to do it safely. It may sound like your 'giving' them more of the ball, but see it this way - instead of having 1 player endlessly chase 3 for 10 mins, they they come forward and you press, so you have the ball back within a minute or two.

 

 

 

 

[goku4]

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

@goku4 I don't understand this. This is your 2nd thread about this issue.

You only need to check some of the advice here and your previous thread. Or watch a match when you don't have the ball. Your striker, in that formation, will have a lot to do on his own and often against 3 or 4 players in his zone. 1 player just cannot chase 3 or 4 players.

I've pointed this out in your previous thread

 

Post #8, #10 and #15 of your original thread. I answered your question that early into it.

 

 

 

@herne79 has also mentioned this more than once in the previous thread and here. A great comment was here:

 

---

You posted that your actual issue is that the AI keeps the ball too much. In both threads now, you've been told why you're struggling. Simply put - your pressing is ineffective. 

As mentioned in the quote above - I used (a few seasons ago now, but still against all teams, attacking and defensive) the same formation as you and had no issues. I have posted that formation/tactic before to show you the difference. I tried counter-pressing for a part of a match ONCE. I saw that I'm cutting off passing lanes and then sending a single striker to press 2x DCs and a DM - with no result. I then abandoned that idea because I could see it doesn't work. The route I went (I'm sure there are other ways too) was to lure them forward, to around the halfway line and THEN press heavily. Often, it would be my midfielders pressing theirs, my striker making passing backwards difficult and the wide players covering their opposition so passes out wide is also more difficult.

---

I've since changed formation and still not counter (because I'd rather my players decide) or counter-pressing (because of defensive teams), even though I have an extra player at the front now compared to the 4123. I just played a match to make it 65 unbeaten, including a CL win last season and the league for 5 years (4 of them with this tactic) straight.

With the formation I have now, I have no doubt I could counter press, so it's not that I'm saying it is always a bad idea. I'm saying if you literally see something being a problem - do something about it. I just prefer not to counter press with this as I like to have that little bit more room when I do win the ball, so I have space to attack into.

 

And yes, even the defensive teams get forward - they just try to do it safely. It may sound like your 'giving' them more of the ball, but see it this way - instead of having 1 player endlessly chase 3 for 10 mins

 

 

 

 

Its always nice if you guys tell me the theoretical foundation or what is going on in your mind. But how do you implement this in FM? I have also a lot of tactical stuff in my mind but I can not implement everything in FM. So how do you lurk? How do you prevent your lone striker to not run early towards the oppposition CB? Either you decrease LOE, let your striker man mark the opposition CDM, tick off prevent short gk distribution. right? But nothing which I still did not try out. If I lower LOE, I just invite 2nd division sides to dominate me in my own half and score goals. Look, these stats are currently with the tactic I posted initially with minor changes such as run with ball often, work ball into the box plus more creative freedom and the whole backline + wingers on short passing. These are the results so far. It is funny, that I can achieve better results and a way more solid defence with this tactic than the one, where I played with control mentality, ticked off counter and pass into spaces, lowered tempo and lowered LOE to high plus both of my full backs on support mentality. The question is: Why? Isnt the second alternative more "solid" and balanced? Why does the game grant me more success if I go "full attacking"? The second tactic with control mentality was used the season before and I had my worst seasons based on defensive stats. For the first time, I conceded more goals than matches played, 37. Before this, I always played attacking mentality, very close to the current one, and I only conceded 25 at maximum, even managed to finish a season with just 14 goals conceded. What is the logic behind this? I want to know it, as this may help me to create something what I have in mind.

[afailed10]

Not much you can do pal. This happens in FM20 much more than in any other version. I consider it a flaw in the ME. Remember how 2nd division teams had 70% possession against Pepe's Barca 433? me neither

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, goku4 said:

Its always nice if you guys tell me the theoretical foundation or what is going on in your mind. But how do you implement this in FM? I have also a lot of tactical stuff in my mind but I can not implement everything in FM. So how do you lurk? How do you prevent your lone striker to not run early towards the oppposition CB?

No 'theory'. You dismiss or ignore advice. Advice that encourages thinking and then learning (so you're moving forward) but it's surely not that vague? I posted what I did literally (again for the 3rd time) right above your post, so it's all there. If you don't understand something, by all means - ask. I've hit the point (and others have too) that you're for some reason counter pressing in transition when you have admitted it's not working and ineffective, yet you continue to do it. After advice has been given multiple times (3+ times just from me) that it's ineffective, especially using this setup and formation. You're counter pressing with a single striker ( and little other help ) against a defensive team (so 2, 3 or 4 players to press) and it's been pointed out multiple times. Like I've pointed out, I nailed down your issue in the beginning already. It happened to me. The difference is that I did something about it, while you didn't.

Your specific question has had this answer and you continue to do it. Have a look at what happens when you lose the ball. Actually watch the match and sequence when this happens. Your striker counter pressing 2, 3 or 4 defenders is the issue.

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

Not much you can do pal. This happens in FM20 much more than in any other version. I consider it a flaw in the ME. Remember how 2nd division teams had 70% possession against Pepe's Barca 433? me neither

There's advice not only in this thread, but the previous one (as I've highlighted) so people can take it and do something or sit with an issue.

[goku4]

Well, honestly, I've given up on trying to make a more "solid" and "balanced" tactic. Switched to my previous tacitc (the one with attacking mentality), did some minor tweaks and this is what I got as a result. I am really not into having as much possession as possible. Just wanna try to explain myself, why I have more success, defensively, offensively, as well as in terms of winning silverware, when I go gung-ho.

 

[afailed10]

53 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

There's advice not only in this thread, but the previous one (as I've highlighted) so people can take it and do something or sit with an issue.

There's tips but I failed to find any practical examples on how to get a 4141 wide to control possession against very defensive sides. (I will take a closer look later)

Anyway, these are Benfica's first 10 matches under Zidane, using a 433 in the 3rd season. Their team is very strong but it's fair to say he's just a couple defeats away from losing his job before christmas. My point is that even the AI has issues with a 433 in domestic dominance.

Edited September 19, 2020 by afailed10

[HUNT3R]

7 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

There's tips but I failed to find any practical examples on how to get a 4141 wide to control possession against very defensive sides.

No that really isn't true. I've posted 2 tactics that I've used and haven't had issues with. Specifically with my own 4123, I've posted the thinking behind it too in terms of pressing and not counter pressing. That alone could have helped the OP. Herne has chipped in too and shown what he does with his tactic as well (across this thread but also the OP's previous, identical thread) and Rashidi has weighed in too. The idea is to put forward the problems and solutions, not to tell you exactly which button to click though. The problems have been highlighted. Possible solutions and others' solutions (including my own) have been provided. I've provided everything from my own save. It's there - just needs to be read.

If you specifically have issues, it's might be best to post your own thread with exact details of your save and situation and how you're setting up.  

[afailed10]

35 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

No there's an actual tactic posted with the reasoning behind it too. The idea is to put forward the problems and solutions, not to tell you exactly which button to click though. I've provided everything from my own save. It's there - just needs to be read.

I've Ctrl+F'ed through the threads and couldn't find any of your post containing a 4141 dm wide in which you dominate possession against parked buses. I've seen your 433 when your team wasn't top3 and how you changed to a 442/424.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, afailed10 said:

I've Ctrl+F'ed through the threads and couldn't find any of your post containing a 4141 dm wide in which you dominate possession against parked buses. I've seen your 433 when your team wasn't top3 and how you changed to a 442/424.

The principles would be the same though? You could apply the same principles with a 4141 DM Wide as I did with me 4123 DM Wide. They're not world's apart. I'm not asking anyone (the opposite) to copy the tactic. I'm asking people to observe. Have a plan or not, but at least observe.

[afailed10]

2 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The principles would be the same though? You could apply the same principles with a 4141 DM Wide as I did with me 4123 DM Wide. They're not world's apart. I'm not asking anyone (the opposite) to copy the tactic. I'm asking people to observe. Have a plan or not, but at least observe.

I am referring to the 4141 DM Wide with is the same as a 4123 DM Wide. I'm not talking about the flat version which is more or less the same with the exception of wide players starting lower and having different roles available.

The point we are discussing here is how irrealistically hard it is to dominate possession with a 4141dm wide formation, against very defensive teams. It's especially obvious after the 3rd season if you're the reigning champion. It is something noticeable in the AI as well. The ideas discussed in other threads are valid and helpful to anyone. The issue here is not winning but playing how you want to. Thanks anyway

[HUNT3R]

Just now, afailed10 said:

I am referring to the 4141 DM Wide with is the same as a 4123 DM Wide. I'm not talking about the flat version which is more or less the same with the exception of wide players starting lower and having different roles available.

The point we are discussing here is how irrealistically hard it is to dominate possession with a 4141dm wide formation, against very defensive teams. It's especially obvious after the 3rd season if you're the reigning champion. It is something noticeable in the AI as well. The ideas discussed in other threads are valid and helpful to anyone. The issue here is not winning but playing how you want to. Thanks anyway

I obviously know this as it was and is the subject of the last thread and this one. I've posted mine where I've had no issue dominating possession - against any team. I've had no issue against defensive teams either. Even after winning the CL.

[herne79]

2 hours ago, afailed10 said:

There's tips but I failed to find any practical examples on how to get a 4141 wide to control possession against very defensive sides. (I will take a closer look later)

I posted a link to a post I made in a different thread (a thread I started to discuss precisely this topic btw) containing my system which does exactly what you are after using that formation earlier in this thread.

[goku4]

56 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I posted a link to a post I made in a different thread (a thread I started to discuss precisely this topic btw) containing my system which does exactly what you are after using that formation earlier in this thread.

Could you maybe post the link here aswell? Or can you tell me how I can find your thread? Its not about winning for me, as you can see, I have already won every single cup once or twice in my save. Its about trying to understand the mechanisms and how to effectively press defensive AI without changing my formation and my tactic majorly.

[herne79]

15 minutes ago, goku4 said:

Could you maybe post the link here aswell?  Or can you tell me how I can find your thread? Its not about winning for me, as you can see, I have already won every single cup once or twice in my save. Its about trying to understand the mechanisms and how to effectively press defensive AI without changing my formation and my tactic majorly.

 

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

I posted a link ... earlier in this thread.

It's on Page 1 of this thread, which you already read and replied to.  That link which has my system in it is part of the thread.  It's a possession based system which I mentioned here again because that user above specifically asked about a possession based 4123DM system.

[goku4]

30 minutes ago, herne79 said:

 

It's on Page 1 of this thread, which you already read and replied to.  That link which has my system in it is part of the thread.  It's a possession based system which I mentioned here again because that user above specifically asked about a possession based 4123DM system.

Thx very much, found the one post with 4123. In terms of defensive setup, beside the mentality, it looks similar to my setup: very high dline (i have high dline but attacking mentality) very high loe, prevent short gk distribution. I changed the defensive width from narrow to standard and also told my players to stay on feet. The two games I played, I could observe that at least the AI can not come very easily to goal chances and outplay my midfield by just passing the ball wide to their full backs and then running towards my full backs without anyone near. However, this game in the derby is just an extreme example again xD gladbach played 4231 cautious the whole game and I even managed to get less possession by setting defensive width to standard and telling my players to stay on feet instead of get stuck in. There must be a way to tell my IFs to stay close to the fullbacks in opposition half, to not attack CBs, but to tell my two CMs to go further up the pitch and support the lonely striker to press the CBs. What usually happens when I tell my players to mark a specific position but this position does not exist in the AI's formation? Will they still be marking players close to that area?

[goku4]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

 

It's on Page 1 of this thread, which you already read and replied to.  That link which has my system in it is part of the thread.  It's a possession based system which I mentioned here again because that user above specifically asked about a possession based 4123DM system.

The "stay on feet" plus standard defensive width has really worked wonders so far. 7 Games and won all 7 comfortably. Look at this  Even dominating a disgusting antifootball side xD

[Experienced Defender]

@karanhsingh I unfortunately had to remove your post, because it requires a separate thread. This one is solely about the OP's tactic, team and issues. 

Even if you have similar tactical problems, you still must start your own thread. Please do so and you'll get feedback