Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '08

[Rico73]

So went through the whle season playing with Man Utd using the five tactics, produced some quite brilliant results (6-0 at Home to Spurs and 4-1 at home to Liverpool are the two that stand out!) However I only managed 5th in the prem, 1/4 Finals of CL, 1/2 Final of F.A Cup and an early exit in Carling Cup. I realise that I probably have to keep tweeking the sliders regarding Mentality and CF but I can't seem to do anything when I use either the Attacking or Control tactics. All the decent results have come using Balanced. I think that I may have the M & CF set too high (they are both on 19 or 20). Any advice???

[James8]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Sliders and the Ambiguity of Management

Additional Mentality Settings

Central Midfielders

Mentality differences seem to be more acute than in previous versions. In defensive-minded tactics any kind of mentality gap between the midfield and the DCs leaves a gap that the AI will ruthlessly exploit. Thus, it is beneficial to have one MC on the same mentality setting as the DCs no matter what the tactic in order to provide defensive cover (with the possible exception of a Control based tactic). NB: This was extremely necessary in 8.0.1 but it may well be the case that this is not required in the 8.0.2 patch. Be prepared to experiment.

Anything more to add to this wwfan since the 8.0.2 patch? Is having one midfielder on the same mentality as the defence still essential?

If so, would using a Barrow on a MC who was say two mentality clicks higher than the DCs do the same job as having them all on the same mentality? My understanding of the game is that it would not - but I'm still a little unsure as to whether your advice in the quote is for positioning reasons or 'play-linking' reasons.

Regards.

[wwfan]

Control should work against any side playing without farrows. Attack at home against any other formation. The CF should be fine, as long as it is 3 players max. I would suggest you read some team-talks/media interaction threads as you might be putting the players under too much/tool little pressure. OP links to Communication and Psychological Warfare.

I still have the MCd on the same mentality as the DCs in all tactics except COntrol, but I am assured it is not needed.

[llama3]

i love my team right now, i managed a run of conceding only 1 goal in 12 matches, and now have a defence that is so hard to breach on my balanced and attacking styles, let alone defensive.

[Martyrium]

In some of my tactics, i set up the two strikers to swap positions, and gave one of them one or two notches higher in mentality.

This worked very well, atleast if both your strikers have both some pace and some stats in jump/heading.

I used Keane, Berbatov and Bent (mostly as substitute) and that certainly worked for me, it can confuse the opposition defence, so if you have smart players, it should work.

Going to start a new spurs save now, with these tactics, will try to sign Huntelaar, would be very interesting to see how it would work (since he is a very smart players, 20 in decision, and he is also a good finisher)

[Rico73]

Ok so another update: Mid-way through the 08/09 season and things are starting to get better in the league. After a poor start of losing to both Arsenal and Chelsea in the first 5 games I have only lost another 1 by the end of November. I think that I realised I was not putting enough pressure on the players and also not being brave enough with my tactics. I tended to always play Balanced at home unless I felt I was playing a v.weak premiership team. I have started to play attack as long as they have no farrows and it appears to be working. I have found that I am creating lots of opportunities but my strikers aren't taking as many as I would like. I may have to give them shooting practice. Still not sure that I have the team talks and media interaction sorted yet so will continue to work on that.

[wwfan]

It normally takes 2-3 seasons to have it working perfectly. Even I am still learning how to best apply each tactic.

[Rico73]

Originally posted by wwfan:

It normally takes 2-3 seasons to have it working perfectly. Even I am still learning how to best apply each tactic.

Thanks wwfan, it makes me feel less of an idiot knowing that someone like you still feels they are learning! By the way I got my fist victory against either Arsenal or Chelsea last night with a brilliant 1-2 win away at the Emirates after going a goal down!!!Mind you I then promptly went and lost 0-3 at home in the CC to Blackburn!

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Rico73:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

It normally takes 2-3 seasons to have it working perfectly. Even I am still learning how to best apply each tactic.

Thanks wwfan, it makes me feel less of an idiot knowing that someone like you still feels they are learning! By the way I got my fist victory against either Arsenal or Chelsea last night with a brilliant 1-2 win away at the Emirates after going a goal down!!!Mind you I then promptly went and lost 0-3 at home in the CC to Blackburn! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never stop learning. I know exactly how to beat certain formations, but others drive me nuts. Don't get to play them often, but when I do I try to make the most of it. The narrow 4-3-2-1 is really bugging me right now.

[Mechanizator]

Advisor in the game speaks it's bad to make often and dramatic changes in tactics as it may desorientate the team. Changing the tactics, for example, from Balanced to Attack means changing most of the instructions for all 11 players. Is this change dramatic enough to desorientate the team? Or maybe Advisor is wrong?

[Rico73]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rico73:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

It normally takes 2-3 seasons to have it working perfectly. Even I am still learning how to best apply each tactic.

Thanks wwfan, it makes me feel less of an idiot knowing that someone like you still feels they are learning! By the way I got my fist victory against either Arsenal or Chelsea last night with a brilliant 1-2 win away at the Emirates after going a goal down!!!Mind you I then promptly went and lost 0-3 at home in the CC to Blackburn! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never stop learning. I know exactly how to beat certain formations, but others drive me nuts. Don't get to play them often, but when I do I try to make the most of it. The narrow 4-3-2-1 is really bugging me right now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unbelievable, are you phsycic or something? I got in from work last night and as usual started playing FM08, the first game I played was against Blackburn (again) in the F.A Cup this time and what formation did they use........ The narrow 4-3-2-1. It confused the hell out of me, I tried to continue with the Attack tactic as I was at home, didn't seem to be working as despite having loads of posession I wasn't creating any chances so I continued to switch between Balanced and Attack, couldn't make the break-through and possibly should have tried Control but didn't. Managed to get through extra time (it was a replay!) and went through on penalties!!

[wwfan]

After experimenting, I would say that Control seems to be the best anti-4-3-2-1 version, by some distance, probably because of all the zonal marking. For other versions you have to use Specific Marking which is annoyingly fiddly.

[micro-ice]

i am using the attacking version of your tactic set in spain wwfan. but i am constantly being destroyed by amc's. any ideas as to how i can reduce the amc;s threat?

thanks in advance.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by micro-ice:

i am using the attacking version of your tactic set in spain wwfan. but i am constantly being destroyed by amc's. any ideas as to how i can reduce the amc;s threat?

thanks in advance.

Option One: Zonal mark with all defensive players. Keep d-line high to reduce space.

OI the AMC: tight mark, show onto wrong foot.

Option Two: Specific mark the AMC with the MCd

[vasilli07]

wwfan, what does a free role really means? Does it mean that a player would really ignore the individual instructions(or most of) i gave him? Or does it mean a player can move to whatever position he wants to during a match? Ie. a winger moving to a am position.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by vasilli07:

wwfan, what does a free role really means? Does it mean that a player would really ignore the individual instructions(or most of) i gave him? Or does it mean a player can move to whatever position he wants to during a match? Ie. a winger moving to a am position.

It is the freedom to ignore defensive instructions and roam attacking areas. It isn't quite as liberating as your 'winger moving to AMC' example, but it will keep the winger looking for attacking opportunites rather than helping the FB out when the other team counters.

[micro-ice]

thanks for the advice wwfan. it seems to reduce the threat of the AMC. although i still think that the AMC is too good fm08.

[Riziger]

WWfan, I downloaded your RoO tactic set from FM-B.

I notice that in the Counter tactic, the MCd's CF is "Much" which the MCa's is "little".

Is this deliberately done or is it an error?

Also, Using the set, I seem to have no problem scoring with my Blackburn side but I'm leaking goals from all over.

Away from home when I use the Counter tactic, I dominate the game, possesion-wise and also passing-wise.

However, there seems to be A LOT of shots off target from my team and somehow the opponent scores 2 or 3 and I end up drawing a match I should have easily won.

[Chivas]

I have a question mate.Suppose that my teams mentality 18.When I click one of my player his mentality is default(18) too.If ı click mentality and do 18 What changes.? 1 clcik changes something?

[aston_martin]

Originally posted by wwfan:

I think your biggest issue is likely to be the DMCs closing down instructions. They will need to be reasonably high in order to have them competing for the ball in the right areas.

I have uploaded my tactic set at FMB if you need to have a quick look/see at how I have my 4-4-2 set up.

Hey wwfan, I have looked on FMB for the tactics set but unfortunately cannot find it could you please tell me where abouts it is please? It's just I'm a bit of a tactics freak when it comes to FM and I want to explore your settings to see what you apply in each situation.

Thanks.

[wwfan]

The MCd had higher CF in that version because he was a better, more creative player than the MCa, who was just a box to box dynamo. CF is never writ in stone. Assign it to the players who can use it.

Counter should be pretty defensively sound. If you are struggling it might be becasue your MCs are sitting too deep. You should be able to see that on the 2d. Either increase CD or try Balanced.

@ Chivas Not much will change with a one notch difference. I am not a fan of one notch tweaking.

Link to Set

[Uncle_Sam]

I have become incredibly stingy with creative freedom. And by stingy, I mean that most of my players have 5 or less. In my current game I have only 2 players set to a creative freedom of 10 and 11, everyone else has no higher of a setting than 5.

[jayare35]

I have a question for those who have a grip on the match engine and tactics. I pay close attention to TT&F as I base my tactics loosely on some of the theories and it’s always great to get a different point of view than your own.

A little background – my home tactic was excellent in regards to results. I usually won the possession battle in each home game by 5-10%. I have switched to the latest patch (8.0.2) and my tactic is no longer as effective as it once was. I now lose the possession battle in each game by up to 15%. The rest of the tactic is working as I am in the top ten teams in scoring. It is hard not to concede when the opposition has so much possession. My passing is somewhat reduced but not greatly. I seem not to be able to take the ball away from the opposition. I am in the same league and my league position is falling. This is the second season of the new patch and I am still getting beaten in possession.

My question is – Is there an inherent difference in the latest patch that would lead a once effective tactic into a loosing tactic in regards to possession?

[jaydeee]

Thanks wwfan! Good work.

I enjoyed reading your post and found everything you said very helpful. all of your points seem to make sense and based on what you've said i designed 3 tactics for my spurs side, att, def, and balanced. here are my results.

arsenal 2 - 0 spurs, pretty obvious i was guna get beat first day away at arsenal

deby 0 - 2 spurs, started attacking, team talk expect win, should of one by more tbh

pompey 2 - 1 spurs, unlucky to be beat by a jermaine defoe offside goal.

spurs 3 - 1 b'burn, again the attacking tactic paid off, lovely player form the wingers (valdivia and mattias fernandez) and tm (huntelaar).

all in all, im happy. havent played this version yet, but i think the tactical aspect is more in depth than the last one. so im glad this has provided me with a good tactical basis.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by jayare35:

I have a question for those who have a grip on the match engine and tactics. I pay close attention to TT&F as I base my tactics loosely on some of the theories and it’s always great to get a different point of view than your own.

A little background – my home tactic was excellent in regards to results. I usually won the possession battle in each home game by 5-10%. I have switched to the latest patch (8.0.2) and my tactic is no longer as effective as it once was. I now lose the possession battle in each game by up to 15%. The rest of the tactic is working as I am in the top ten teams in scoring. It is hard not to concede when the opposition has so much possession. My passing is somewhat reduced but not greatly. I seem not to be able to take the ball away from the opposition. I am in the same league and my league position is falling. This is the second season of the new patch and I am still getting beaten in possession.

My question is – Is there an inherent difference in the latest patch that would lead a once effective tactic into a loosing tactic in regards to possession?

It's likely you need to OI a few players to win quick ball back. Use the extended players stats screen to see who is running the show for the opposition and tight mark them always. Should do the trick.

You might also need to raise your d-line.

[jayare35]

Thanks wwfan.

Love to read the TT&F. Appreciate all the effort that must have gone into creating the masterpiece.

I think that Tempo plays a greater role tactically than most think. Just my opinion.

[Simao Sabrosa]

Awesome work here mate. Was actually having some trouble with tempo and trying to work out which variation should use which tempo, but i seem to be getting how it works.

Am now starting to dominate games having 15-20 shots a game with 75% + being on target. Opposition is also under alot more pressure and i am seeing alot of off target shots and hardly none on target.

Currently playing a 4-1-2-1-2 Formation with Benfica and in 1st in the league. Ty heaps for ur help.

[jayare35]

wwfan,

How far can I raise my d-line without unlinking it with the rest of my tactic?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by jayare35:

wwfan,

How far can I raise my d-line without unlinking it with the rest of my tactic?

I am beginning to believe a lot, although that is related to experimenting with the FML engine which is a few steps further than the FM08 one. Simply put, if you have a flat 4-4-2 playing against a formation using an AMC, raise it until the AMC has no space to operate but you are also not getting hit with through balls obver the top. May take some trial and error but you should eventually hit pay-dirt.

[Law_Man]

Originally posted by jayare35:

I have a question for those who have a grip on the match engine and tactics. I pay close attention to TT&F as I base my tactics loosely on some of the theories and it’s always great to get a different point of view than your own.

A little background – my home tactic was excellent in regards to results. I usually won the possession battle in each home game by 5-10%. I have switched to the latest patch (8.0.2) and my tactic is no longer as effective as it once was. I now lose the possession battle in each game by up to 15%. The rest of the tactic is working as I am in the top ten teams in scoring. It is hard not to concede when the opposition has so much possession. My passing is somewhat reduced but not greatly. I seem not to be able to take the ball away from the opposition. I am in the same league and my league position is falling. This is the second season of the new patch and I am still getting beaten in possession.

My question is – Is there an inherent difference in the latest patch that would lead a once effective tactic into a loosing tactic in regards to possession?

You might actually need to start a new game as there's some well known issues with patching to 8.02 and then not being able to buy a win. Just a thought if it helps.

[il_fenomeno]

wwfan,I took this weekend to read all those articles from FM-Britain,TT&F 08 and including the ones from 07(as I only play FM since 07) and has helped me a lot.If you think about it,it's all very logic and once you asimilate and you begin to understand how it works and why should work like this it's great playing the game.I had some impressive results using RoO mindsets,and I will be making some experiments

I use your 442 set in a N.Forrest game and I have a question:In the Defend system D-Line is set to deep and in D-Line sections(TT&F) it sais:'For the Defend framework the d-line needs to be higher than the mentality average in order to compact space' wich would seem logical to me.Haven't had the chance to use Defend very much but I have some ideas about how to re-design it.

Another question:What about the narrow 4231?in my opinion it would only work for top teams as it requires a High D-line.How should a Counter or Defend system should be?

Lastly,what other formations(not just in FM) except the 442,is defensively stable that also provides offensive options

[wwfan]

1: Is the d-line deep in Defend? I know it is not high per se, but it is high in relation to the d-lines in the other tactics. However, feel free to make it higher. Recent observation has suggested that is more than possible.

2: The 4-2-3-1 can work in a Counter or Defend mode. Just give no forward runs to the back 6 or 8. Keep the d-line slightly higher to reduce space around the flanks.

3: I think the Diamond and a wide 4-2-3-1 are probably the best shapes.

[Martyrium]

I am struggling with very few shots on targets. My midfield is working very well, having many clean sheets, and they produce lots of chances.

But my strikers just dont manage to score a lot, getting many 1-0.

[Justin_Case]

Just thought I'd add some info into what I believe is the best thread on these forums.

Having struggled my way through many FM saves, I decided to print out, read and digest the advice offered by WWfan, and set up my tactics set accordingly. At first I tested these in a one season game with Chelsea, and found them to be good, but a little inconsistent (FA cup and League cup winners, 3rd in prem).

While playing this season, two areas became apparent to success - decision making around a game and tweaking to suit differing players.

I am now taking on the challenge of bringing league football back to York, and with around 10 games of my first season back, I'm sitting 3rd, and in the semi's of both the Trophy and the Setanta Shield. I have followed the frameworks set out in this thread but have changed them slightly to my players strengths and weaknesses, and most importantly, I now treat every game as a one off 'cup final', making the most of all the info I can gather before games to decide which system to play, and how to deal with the oppositions key players.

Many thanks for all the help passed on in this thread WWfan, and I hope that all those who may be having trouble stick with the ideas in this thread, and keep plugging away!

[Martyrium]

Worked it out now with new striker instructions. Decreased trough balls, crossing, long shots and passing, works excellent.

wwfan: Can i upload my tactical set to my local norwegian fm-site if i link to this thread and credit you for the theories and the help etc?

[il_fenomeno]

It was on last notch of deep,but changed it slighlty and it's working better.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Martyrium:

Worked it out now with new striker instructions. Decreased trough balls, crossing, long shots and passing, works excellent.

wwfan: Can i upload my tactical set to my local norwegian fm-site if i link to this thread and credit you for the theories and the help etc?

Of course. What is the site?

[Martyrium]

fmnorge.com

[jwalsh82]

Originally posted by Martyrium:

fmnorge.com

Where is it on that site? Can you link it please?

[Martyrium]

Havent uploaded yet since i want to give it a final tweak before uploading. My players in central midfield hold onto the ball for too long under pressure.

What can i tweak to reduce that?

[teejay73]

Originally posted by wwfan:

Originally posted by jayare35:

wwfan,

How far can I raise my d-line without unlinking it with the rest of my tactic?

I am beginning to believe a lot, although that is related to experimenting with the FML engine which is a few steps further than the FM08 one. Simply put, if you have a flat 4-4-2 playing against a formation using an AMC, raise it until the AMC has no space to operate but you are also not getting hit with through balls obver the top. May take some trial and error but you should eventually hit pay-dirt.

A question on def-line, what other factors contribute to making a high def-line work?

What is meant by unlinking the tactic by using a high def-line?

[wwfan]

A high d-line is vital in FML against some of the more common wingless tactics. I assume it will also work to an extent in FM08.

Unlinking a d-line from a tactic means you are setting it away from the tactics average mentality (i.e. if your tactic ranges from 6-11 in mentality, a d-line of 6-11 is linked, one of 13 isn't).

You will need quick defenders with good positioning.

[Uncle_Sam]

wwfan, I posted this question to you in one of the countless threads about corners, but I guess you missed.

You mentioned your success in defending corners, and I was just curious about your routine. Do you have a set routine or do you have principles that depend on situation and circumstance?

[pkoso]

Hello wwfan, you have done a great work!

Congratulations. However, Can you help me, please?

Does it means, TIGHT and LOOSE?

I understand the marking zonal and man, but i don´t understand all zonal/(LOOSE). or tight

Where i can to try these, in the tactid?

I don´t speak enlish well, i´m sorry.

Thank you

[heathxxx]

You know... I keep referring back to this thread. Simply because I make a good tactics set, inevitably over a few seasons players come & go. Inevitably, after tweeking many times, a tactic is completely different to what was started out with. Sometimes it's easy therefore to lose track of why things suddenly don't work.

Coming back here, re-reading all the info, I always get back to basics and get things back on track.

Being a citizen of Her Majesty's Commonwealth wwfan, I'm sure there's still the chance of a Knighthood good Sir!

[pkoso]

If you put mentality to MCd 16 in Rule of One (Attack)

The mentality isn´t how the DCs.

what i do? I put mentality 16 or 14 how Dcs

thanks

[wwfan]

Uncle Sam: The defensive corner settings I use are linked to in the OP set piece link. They were devised by The next Diaby and Millie.

pkoso: Tight means the marker stays very close to his man. Loose means he lets his man have space. In general, the more defensive tactic you are using, the more players you need on tight. The more attacking, the more players on loose.

As for mentality, you are right. If your MCd has a mentality of 16, the DCs would be 14. However, in 8.0.1 this didn't work well. It does in 8.0.2.

heathxxx: Thanks

[AlexisManson]

I'd like to have wwfan's opinion (and others' too) on the recent choices I've made regarding my tactics. I am mostly confused about creative freedom (I set all my players on little, halfway between the

middle and far left, except if I have offensive-minded players who are particularly good), closing down and forward runs, as to who should have what set.

If there is an instruction that I don't mention, it probably means I set it to the middle. Bear in mind whilst reading this that when I set slider to High or Low for any instruction, it is set to in between middle and far left for low, and between middle and far right for high.

I like to play a standard 4-4-2 formation, diamond or flat depending what kind of central midfielders I have in my squad.

Home:

The 2 wingers have 1-notch farrows.

Goalkeeper: Low creative freedom and medium closing down (am I right in thinking that if a goalkeeper has a high 'rushing out' attribute, I can give him a higher closing down instruction, and vice-versa?)

DL and DR: Forward runs on mixed (should I put them on often?).

DCs: Low creative freedom and closing down (high low should I set them? I set them on halfway between the middle and the far left, is that fine?)

Zonal loose marking, unless it says in their coach report that one of their strengths is marking.

DMC: Forward runs on mixed, closing down on mixed.

ML and MR: Forward runs on often, closing down on mixed

AMC: Forward runs mixed, closing down mixed

SCs: Forward runs mixed, closing down mixed

Team Instructions:

I guess if I am a big favourite I will put width to in between middle and far right.

Tempo: high (again between middle and far right)

Closing down: high

Mentality: high (I like all my players to have the same mentality)

Away: Same as home but with these differences:

DL and DR: No forward runs.

DMC: No forward runs

ML and MR: No farrows, forward runs on mixed

Team Instructions:

Width: Narrow

Tempo: Normal

Mentality: Defensive

Closing Down: Rarely

Focus Passing down the middle

Counter Attack ticked

I think that's it. Any thoughts? Against weaker sides, if odds are in my favour I will use the 'home' tactic, and if playing against a better team I will tend to use the 'away' formation. If we are both of equal strength, I will tend to be more cautious at home than the 'home' tactic, and if playing away I will simply use the 'away' formation. Does this make sense?

Can you detect any blatant weaknesses in those setups or do they seem fine to you?

[wwfan]

Looks pretty good. Only thing I would play around with is the DMC's FWRS and Closing Down. I find it best to have a DMC heavily CDing with no FWRs, but you might find, with a global mentlaity, he sits too close to the back four that way.

I'd also look at tempo in attack and shift it between fast and slow depending on conditions.

[AlexisManson]

Ok, thanks for the feedback!