Youth Development Dilemma

[RuffJustice13]

Hi guys, 

I'm currently managing Lyon in my first season. We have excellent youth players in both our 19's & reserves such as Rayan Chekri, Florent Da Silva, and many more. I've began upgrading the youth facilities and training facilities at the club and eventually I will improve the junior coaching when given the option. I've also hugely improved the background staff for both development sides. 

My issue is that I've noticed my U19's manager isn't playing my wonderkids often enough. I'm 7 games into the season and both Rayan & Florent have only played in one U19'S fixture. I understand that they are both only 16 however they are already good enough for a starting spot in the u19's. It's frustrating as the u19's manager is giving game time to players with far less potential. Is there a way to ensure my wonderkids play as frequently as possible for the youth sides? If not, will this lack of youth game time hinder their development? 

My last query is relating to exciting prospects that aren't quite at the first team level. I have youngsters such as Anthony Racioppi (GK - 20 years old), Oumar Solet (CB - 19 years old) & Amine Gouiri (ST - 19 years old). All three will be starting in every domestic cup competition and the occasional champions league group games. Apart from Amine Gouri (who is coming off the bench in nearly every league game) would you recommend loaning any of those players? I would only loan them to clubs in a reputable league, with important first team player or regular starter and preferably to clubs with good facilities. All three players are also available for the reserves each week. I've currently promoted all three to the first team so they can obtain some valuable mentoring. I'm unsure whats best, what would you do? 

Thanks, 

RuffJustice13

[yonko]

AI managers select players based on CA, not PA - same way your Assistant recommends starting XI. Therefore try to clear (loan or sell) most of your U19s or promote them to reserves team, so the talented players can play. Btw, all talented players should be in your first team training there but playing for reserves and/or U19s. 

You don't have to loan Racioppi, Solet and Guiri - give them some playing time in easy home games and cup games. Put them in mentoring groups and train them hard - role training, additional focus (if needed) and double intensity. 

[RuffJustice13]

20 minutes ago, yonko said:

AI managers select players based on CA, not PA - same way your Assistant recommends starting XI. Therefore try to clear (loan or sell) most of your U19s or promote them to reserves team, so the talented players can play. Btw, all talented players should be in your first team training there but playing for reserves and/or U19s. 

You don't have to loan Racioppi, Solet and Guiri - give them some playing time in easy home games and cup games. Put them in mentoring groups and train them hard - role training, additional focus (if needed) and double intensity. 

Thank you for your reply. It now makes alot of sense knowing that the AI uses CA. I do think Sports Interactive should look into this further as I can guarantee Rayan Chekri is playing every game for the 19's in real life. 

I've taken your advice onboard regarding the future prospects and altered their training schedules accordingly. I have a few wonderkids that I've purchased for my starting XI such as Noah Katterbach (19) & Marash Kumbulla (19). Would you recommend training them on double or normal intensity as they are already starting every senior fixture? Also, if a youth player like Chekri already has a good personality trait and determination, would you still put him in a mentoring group? 

[yonko]

1 minute ago, RuffJustice13 said:

Thank you for your reply. It now makes alot of sense knowing that the AI uses CA. I do think Sports Interactive should look into this further as I can guarantee Rayan Chekri is playing every game for the 19's in real life. 

I've taken your advice onboard regarding the future prospects and altered their training schedules accordingly. I have a few wonderkids that I've purchased for my starting XI such as Noah Katterbach (19) & Marash Kumbulla (19). Would you recommend training them on double or normal intensity as they are already starting every senior fixture? Also, if a youth player like Chekri already has a good personality trait and determination, would you still put him in a mentoring group? 

I set training for the first team in a way that everyone 90%+ conditioning is training on double intensity, 80-89% on normal intensity and 70-79% on half intensity. 

This way players who played in match train lightly the next day, while those who didn't play, train harder. If talented players are getting normal playing time, I treat them as any other player. 

Keep an eye on the players who train with the first team but play games with reserves and/or U19s - make sure they don't play games too often which will leave them no time to train with the first team! They shouldn't play more than 2 games a week and they should have 3 days between each game they play.

This way you keep a nice cycle of games and training for their development. 

[Zemahh]

4 hours ago, yonko said:

Btw, all talented players should be in your first team training there but playing for reserves and/or U19s.

This isn't entirely true. Unless your U18 player is actually good enough for some playing time, you're stifling his development with moving him into the first team. Youth teams generally train more than senior ones, because they play less games and therefore need less match preparation and recovery sessions. Since young players' attributes can grow very quickly, it's important to let them make the most out of intense training, unless they will actually play for your team regularly and get good performance ratings.

Personally, I follow these general pointers:

Players under 18

• U18 squad

Players over 18

• If good enough to get match time = senior squad
• If not quite good enough yet and still has potential = loan to club with good training facilities as regular starters
• If not quite good enough yet and running out of potential = sell or release*

*Unless positive personality, that can have positive effect on rest of the squad

[skyline72]

You can let players under 18 train with the first team but play the U18/U23 games.

[GianniM]

You can make your own line up in the tactics screen of the u19s or whatever youth team and the manager of that team should be using your selection

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, skyline72 said:

You can let players under 18 train with the first team but play the U18/U23 games.

If they train with the first team, they will also have as much match preparation/recovery sessions and rest days as the first team, meaning they will train considerably less than players in U18 squads. Unless they're actually playing and getting good performance ratings, which of course would be optimal, it's not worth having players under the age of 18 in the first team, not even for mentoring.

[mikcheck]

I only have them in the first team if I want them to be mentored. I had one with fickle personality,  it was a very slow mentoring process , but now he is perfeccionist and developing faster.

Edited May 10, 2020 by mikcheck

[KrKAlex]

@Zemahh, are you taking care of the training of your U18 squad too? At least the individual ones?

[Zemahh]

1 hour ago, KrKAlex said:

@Zemahh, are you taking care of the training of your U18 squad too? At least the individual ones?

The individual training, yes. For the rest I currently don't care too much, because I just recently started a new save and am still in the depths of English lower leagues. Can hardly develop anyone with poor facilities, horrid coaches and semi-pro schedule, so I'd be wasting my time. 

But when it comes to youth development saves, it definitely makes sense to take control of it all, if you want to get the absolute maximum out of players. At least when it comes to individual training, I find assistant's advice pretty useless.

[KrKAlex]

1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

The individual training, yes. For the rest I currently don't care too much, because I just recently started a new save and am still in the depths of English lower leagues. Can hardly develop anyone with poor facilities, horrid coaches and semi-pro schedule, so I'd be wasting my time. 

But when it comes to youth development saves, it definitely makes sense to take control of it all, if you want to get the absolute maximum out of players. At least when it comes to individual training, I find assistant's advice pretty useless.

Ok, thank you for your answer. How often do you change the personal training?

[Zemahh]

1 minute ago, KrKAlex said:

How often do you change the personal training?

I'll usually select a role/additional focus that focuses on player's biggest weaknesses whenever I sign him and then leave it at that until I'm happy. I've set up a monthly in-game reminder to comment on all players' training performances and that's when I usually have a quick glance at everyone's attributes, as I scroll through them to praise/criticize them.

[KrKAlex]

48 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

I'll usually select a role/additional focus that focuses on player's biggest weaknesses whenever I sign him and then leave it at that until I'm happy. I've set up a monthly in-game reminder to comment on all players' training performances and that's when I usually have a quick glance at everyone's attributes, as I scroll through them to praise/criticize them.

Ok, I see. Many thanks for the info! I tried to do the same way, but I never put any player on Double Intensity. How do you monitor this uually? Do you have a rule as a function of the age, the stamina, the mentality, the playing time?

Edited May 10, 2020 by KrKAlex

[RuffJustice13]

11 hours ago, Zemahh said:

This isn't entirely true. Unless your U18 player is actually good enough for some playing time, you're stifling his development with moving him into the first team. Youth teams generally train more than senior ones, because they play less games and therefore need less match preparation and recovery sessions. Since young players' attributes can grow very quickly, it's important to let them make the most out of intense training, unless they will actually play for your team regularly and get good performance ratings.

Personally, I follow these general pointers:

Players under 18

• U18 squad

Players over 18

• If good enough to get match time = senior squad
• If not quite good enough yet and still has potential = loan to club with good training facilities as regular starters
• If not quite good enough yet and running out of potential = sell or release*

*Unless positive personality, that can have positive effect on rest of the squad

Okay thank you for your reply and advice. I'm going to move Chekri back to the u19's and hope the youth manager plays him regularly. I will also Loan Racioppi and Solet as their first team game time is limited. 

[Zemahh]

31 minutes ago, RuffJustice13 said:

I'm going to move Chekri back to the u19's and hope the youth manager plays him regularly.

Best way to ensure that is to simply not have a bloated U19 squad. The first thing I do when I join a club is put all youngsters with no potential on Unwanted list as Sell or Release and just let my DoF offload them. I keep the ones with good personalities, so they can rub off on other players over time, but apart from that there's no need to sign every single youth candidate every year or have a U19 squad full of players you know will never play for you. The best way to ensure your U19 manager plays your best prospects is to not give him any other options on those positions. 

I also make sure I only make my unfit players available for U23 matches, rather than U19 ones. I'd rather have my senior players regain their match sharpness slower, than take away playing time from a hot prospect. If match sharpness is an issue, you can always manually organize a bunch of friendlies for U23s anyway.

[RuffJustice13]

10 hours ago, GianniM said:

You can make your own line up in the tactics screen of the u19s or whatever youth team and the manager of that team should be using your selection

Thank you for your reply. Whenever I make my u19's line up in tactics it's only fixed for the upcoming game. Is there a way to change this?

[GianniM]

Sorry no idea. So your selection disappears after the next game or what do you mean exactly? 

[yonko]

18 hours ago, Zemahh said:

This isn't entirely true. Unless your U18 player is actually good enough for some playing time, you're stifling his development with moving him into the first team. Youth teams generally train more than senior ones, because they play less games and therefore need less match preparation and recovery sessions. Since young players' attributes can grow very quickly, it's important to let them make the most out of intense training, unless they will actually play for your team regularly and get good performance ratings.

Personally, I follow these general pointers:

Players under 18

• U18 squad

Players over 18

• If good enough to get match time = senior squad
• If not quite good enough yet and still has potential = loan to club with good training facilities as regular starters
• If not quite good enough yet and running out of potential = sell or release*

*Unless positive personality, that can have positive effect on rest of the squad

It depends in which country you are playing. My observation is that youth teams play more games in some periods. Coaches are better usually with the first team. In some instances the facilities might be better. Also, if the youngsters are in the first team you can mentor them. You can control in which youth games they play and which reserves games they play. You can also give them so first team appearances. You have more control because you actually play with the first team, not youth team. This might be different if you have the time to actually fiddle with the youth team as well. It takes a lot of micro managing. 

[Zemahh]

5 hours ago, yonko said:

You have more control because you actually play with the first team, not youth team.

This has been discussed quite a bit already:

On 11/01/2018 at 03:19, Rashidi said:

Don’t move him there unless you can play him with the First Teamers. I am managing Ajax and we have U18s who can be played in the senior team. I leave them with their squads and only add them to the match day squad when I KNOW I can bring them on.

On 11/01/2018 at 19:06, Seb Wassell said:

Before the age of 18 the biggest factor (of many) in development is Training Facilities and quality of coaching, however after 18 this becomes match experience. By match experience I mean being challenged at the highest level that the player can manage. Playing at a level that is either too hard or too easy will hinder development. When it comes to training all players use the club's Training Facilities so squad does not matter here, Youth Facilities are used for producing Newgens.

Especially if you're playing two matches per week regularly, it makes no sense to move youngsters into the first team. All the match preparation/recovery sessions and rest days can add up quite a bit over the course of the whole season, which takes away a lot of training time. Besides that, your first team general training might also not be optimal for youth development. Physical attributes tend to improve much easier while the player is still young, so it makes sense to throw in physical sessions often, whereas such an intense schedule could be too much for your first team in mid/late season.

Mentoring can always be done after they're 18, a year or two will not make much difference, if any at all, at that age.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Zemahh

[ScoreMore (Mico)]

11 hours ago, RuffJustice13 said:

Whenever I make my u19's line up in tactics it's only fixed for the upcoming game. Is there a way to change this?

I don´t do this in tactics screen. I do it in the screen where you are asked if you want to make any first teamers available for the upcoming u19 match. There is a formation screen there, you can change players around

[skyline72]

How many players do you guys put in 1 mentoring group?

I got a few players have their determination drop. (Too many in 1 group?)

[Seb Wassell]

7 hours ago, Zemahh said:

Especially if you're playing two matches per week regularly, it makes no sense to move youngsters into the first team. All the match preparation/recovery sessions and rest days can add up quite a bit over the course of the whole season, which takes away a lot of training time. Besides that, your first team general training might also not be optimal for youth development. Physical attributes tend to improve much easier while the player is still young, so it makes sense to throw in physical sessions often, whereas such an intense schedule could be too much for your first team in mid/late season.

Mentoring can always be done after they're 18, a year or two will not make much difference, if any at all, at that age.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, Zemahh said:

This has been discussed quite a bit already:

Especially if you're playing two matches per week regularly, it makes no sense to move youngsters into the first team. All the match preparation/recovery sessions and rest days can add up quite a bit over the course of the whole season, which takes away a lot of training time. Besides that, your first team general training might also not be optimal for youth development. Physical attributes tend to improve much easier while the player is still young, so it makes sense to throw in physical sessions often, whereas such an intense schedule could be too much for your first team in mid/late season.

Mentoring can always be done after they're 18, a year or two will not make much difference, if any at all, at that age.

Youth teams can also play 2 games a week and sometimes even 3 games a week. 

If physical attributes improve easier then why the need to throw more physical sessions? I've never had problems developing youth players with my first team. They usually improve their attributes faster once placed in my first team. That's been my observation. 

1 year of mentoring makes a huge difference actually. And in some case it's 2 years of mentoring if the player is 15-16 years old. I believe it's important to improve the personality as soon as possible and have youngster train along side first team players, especially influential members. It also helps with some player traits and team chemistry. 

[Zemahh]

12 hours ago, yonko said:

Youth teams can also play 2 games a week and sometimes even 3 games a week.

And even then training schedules for youth teams include (or at least should, if you're in control) less match preparation/set piece sessions, because at that age development is more important than results. I don't remember when I last scheduled a Defensive Positioning/Attacking Movement session for my U19s, even when they ended up going far in competitions such as Uefa Youth League (play more games), whereas I use at least two of them (Defensive Positioning/Attacking Movement + Teamwork) before every senior game. Could be all three before big games, which starts taking away a lot of actual training time (but has match performance benefits, of course).

12 hours ago, yonko said:

If physical attributes improve easier then why the need to throw more physical sessions?

Well, to make the most of the fact attributes can develop much quicker at that age? That's not to say they won't develop without you doing so, but they could develop far more if you set up the schedules yourself. Rashidi (BustTheNet) has some fantastic Youtube videos on youth development with his Ajax side, where he focuses on min-maxing every aspect of training (and is rewarded by some crazy progress), if you're interested in the difference it can make.

Anyway, manage your team as you wish, of course, I'm simply showing you what the actual developer and a person who knows the game in and out have said on the topic. 

[EnigMattic1]

On 10/05/2020 at 03:50, yonko said:

I set training for the first team in a way that everyone 90%+ conditioning is training on double intensity, 80-89% on normal intensity and 70-79% on half intensity. 

This way players who played in match train lightly the next day, while those who didn't play, train harder. If talented players are getting normal playing time, I treat them as any other player.

How did you go about setting this up? Was it just something you did manually? 

[Seb Wassell]

8 hours ago, EnigMattic1 said:

How did you go about setting this up? Was it just something you did manually? 

Training > Rest

[yonko]

12 hours ago, Zemahh said:

And even then training schedules for youth teams include (or at least should, if you're in control) less match preparation/set piece sessions, because at that age development is more important than results. I don't remember when I last scheduled a Defensive Positioning/Attacking Movement session for my U19s, even when they ended up going far in competitions such as Uefa Youth League (play more games), whereas I use at least two of them (Defensive Positioning/Attacking Movement + Teamwork) before every senior game. Could be all three before big games, which starts taking away a lot of actual training time (but has match performance benefits, of course).

Well, to make the most of the fact attributes can develop much quicker at that age? That's not to say they won't develop without you doing so, but they could develop far more if you set up the schedules yourself. Rashidi (BustTheNet) has some fantastic Youtube videos on youth development with his Ajax side, where he focuses on min-maxing every aspect of training (and is rewarded by some crazy progress), if you're interested in the difference it can make.

Anyway, manage your team as you wish, of course, I'm simply showing you what the actual developer and a person who knows the game in and out have said on the topic. 

I don't use Match Preparation sessions when having congested schedule for my first team anyway. My first team schedules are created for player development majority of the time. Only in the beginning of the season (when having 1 game a week) I have sessions that get my team familiar with the tactic. By the time I have congested schedule, my team is prepared and we only focus on technical and tactical activities. 

My youngsters are developing better in my first team. And that is why my advice is to have 2-3 high potential youngsters there. If someone has 10-11 highly talented players there, then that is a different story and definitely means micro managing the U19s/U18s. But the OP is not after that. He mentioned 3 highly talented youngsters. So my advice is have them in the first team. 

[EnigMattic1]

2 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Training > Rest

Thanks. Didn't know that. 

[fmFutbolManager]

3 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Training > Rest

Interesting. I just tried this and it set players at 93% condition to half intensity. Unless by condition they take into consideration sharpness, condition and injury risk?

 

EDIT: Ignore me, clicked the 'set intensity to physio recommendation' button. My brain reads bottom up so always select the first button I see as confirmation. I need to set this and put the intensity to automatic.

Edited May 12, 2020 by fmFutbolManager

[Sharkn20]

 

On 10/05/2020 at 21:08, RuffJustice13 said:

Thank you for your reply. Whenever I make my u19's line up in tactics it's only fixed for the upcoming game. Is there a way to change this?

You can save it, and load it for the next game, is a bit laborious the first time, but works like a charm after you have it saved.