My Nightmare Part 2

[Ciderarmy]

Right tin hat on and I know this will upset some people,but I feel this game has become way to hard,there dosent seemed to be ant rhyme or reason why your team can play like Barcelona one min and then play like a pub team the next.

Where other versions you could look at A,B or C and find a reason why your team isn't playing the way it should and unless you get the game like Rashdi,Cleon or Herne there is no hope.

Following on from my other thread im off work at the moment so can put a few hours into FM.

I came onto the forum as I was really struggling with F.G.R. teamand got some great advice and read Hernes excellent thread on possession football and spent hours reading different tactics and watched videos of FM 19 and thought great ill use all this advice.

So fast forward putting all these thoughts into my team who at that stage had 2 wins from 16 dead and buried at the bottom of the league and heading to the championship.

So armed with this knowledge I put it into practice and as you can see the turnaround was insane with 1 defeat in 11 games and 6 clean sheetsmaking us rise from bottom to 11th.

Then the usual happens for no reason our from falls of the cliff and nearly get relegated and this with the same 11 same tactics etc.

Yes I expected to lose to Liverpool,Man utd and Man City but we gain a draw against Chelsea but look at our other results and then look at the previous 11and this is why im so angry.

How can you play liked Barcelona for 10 games and then play like a pub team?

Even if as people say the AI tighten up or change the way they play your team still wouldent be as bad.Fast forwar to this season and taking Exp Defenders advice in pre season didn't make a raft of changes most of the players stayed and we had a great pre season and hey presto were off again with 2 wins in 14 and this after watching videos and reading all the advice.

Im not saying we should be winning the prem but this really dosent make any sense given the fact in our first season we finish 11th and this was our first 11 on the last game of that season.

GK Joe Hart

Jon Joe Kenny 40 prem games played

Kyle Bartley 20 prem games played

Cameron Vickers 12 prem games played

Kevin Wolze 0 prem games played

Yosuke Ideguhgi 4 prem games played

Daniel Barlaser 0 prem games played

Ben Thompson 0 prem games played

Akagi Gogi 0 prem games played

Salmon Rondon 120 prem games played

Keanan Bennets 0 prem games played

So without Rondon and Hart that's a combine total 78 prem games and we finished 11th,fast forward to this season and this is the team.

David Soria on loan from Porto

Jon Joe Kenny 65vprem games played

Jemerson 80 games for Monaco and 2 caps for Brazil

Cameron Vickers 80 prem games and 53 caps for U.S.A

Tyrone Mings 75 prem games

Jefferson Lerma 83 prem games and 29 caps for coloumbia

Youke Ideguchi 59 prem games and 12 caps for Japan

Hamaza Choudhry 108 prem games

OX 150 prem games and 39 caps for England

Marko Pjaca 100 games for juve and 46 caps for Croatia

Gabriel Barbosa 60 games for Lazio plus 4 caps for Brazil

and yet with this team we have 6 wins from 35 games.

I know people will say its the tactic but again after reading hours upon hours of advice this is the team

[Ciderarmy]

GK DEFEND

FB SUPPORT TO GIVE SUPPORT ON THE LEFT FLANK

2 X CB NOTHING FANCY

WB SUPPORT TO ATTACK THE SPACE LEFT BY THE RMD

DM DEFEND TO SHEILD AND SUPPORT THE BACK LINE

BOX TO BOX SUPPORT TO ADD SUPPORT TO THE ATTACK

AP TO LINK UP WITH RMD

IF SUPPORT TO CUT INSIDE AND DRIVE AT THE DEFENCE

RMD TO FIND POCKETS OF SPACE AND DRAG THE DEFENCE AROUND

PF SUPPORT TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE BACK LINE

TEAM INSTRUCTIONS

Control possession to try and keep the ball

Attacking Width Narrow to keep the players nearer

Shorter Passing and Low Tempo

In Transition didn't use any as didn't want my team to lose shape

Disribute ball to the defenders

Out Of Possession Higher Line

To me it seems pretty balanced

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, Ciderarmy said:

Right tin hat on and I know this will upset some people,but I feel this game has become way to hard,there dosent seemed to be ant rhyme or reason why your team can play like Barcelona one min and then play like a pub team the next.

It's a valid point.

Not everyone can see and understand what is happening on the pitch (and bear in mind not everyone actually watches matches) let alone know how to remedy issues.  It's frustrating.

1 hour ago, Ciderarmy said:

Then the usual happens for no reason our from falls of the cliff and nearly get relegated and this with the same 11 same tactics etc.

The bolded part shows the issue: other teams are adapting to you, but you're not doing anything about it and simply carrying on regardless.  But that brings us back to the point I make above - how to identify what the issues are and then how to go about fixing them.  It's a circular problem:  watch matches > don't know what to do > watch matches > still don't know what to do > launch laptop.

It's at that point I usually say to people "stop playing".  Really, just stop playing more matches (for now) because you'll get sacked.  Now that you've stopped playing matches, take a step back and review things - and I mean properly review things by going through your playing squad, your system and matches you've already played.

- Are you trying to play in a particular style?  Are you doing that?  No?  Why?  Tactical, poor player choice, both?

- Are you creating enough chances?  No?  Why?  Tactical, poor player choice, both?

- Are you conceding too many?  Yes?  Why?  Tactical, poor player choice, both?

- Do your players suit your system and their roles?  So (for example) what makes a good Raumdeuter?  Is Ox suitable for that role?  Do your players have the necessary attributes to play with those tactical settings?  Do you know what the desirable attributes would be?  That's just some examples of questions to ask yourself.

So for now, stop playing, take a step back and do a critical review.  I'm not going to comment on your system here because the more that comes from you the faster you'll pick things up, plus I don't know what type of football you want to play.  Looking at your system I can guess how you are typically playing but whether that's how you want to play I don't know.

[DoubleDenimSuccess]

IMO your right hand side is way to open, you have  a RMD up top who drifts and does no defensive work alongside in RCM a AP who roams and then you have your RB as a wing back. I would hazard a guess that you get hit on the break and predominantly down the right side? Especially with a high defensive line as you are playing. Just looks a little gung-ho on the right side to me. IMO this needs tweaking! 

[Keyzer Soze]

I think that you are cleary a case of someone who needs to manage your own expectations, and also realize what kind of team, and league, you are managing.

You are managing in, probably, the most competitive league in the world, with a team that, by the players you have, have the quality to reach a mid table final position, but yet, you are using a tactic that is much more suited to a top team that has the players to dominate in every game.

On top of that, and like you say, you play with that same tactic, and players, regardless of the opponent!

About your tactic, from the first view, you have a serious problem on your right side. RMD + AP(s) + WB(s) is very risky, and you'll be trashed against most of the teams.

 

 

[Ciderarmy]

Hi Herne thanks for your reply it's hard to know what isn't working and what is when your form suddenly disappears we played Derby off the park and won 3-1 then got a fantastic 0-0 with Chelsea then the next 2 games it's liked we hardly know each other can I ask how would you go about looking at what's going wrong?

Herne looking at my tactic can you see any weakness that I'm missing 

The style of play I like is possession football,defending from the front getting in opponents faces and trying to exploit the spaces

Regarding the right flank I can see your point but I thought Ap on support would stay in the cm area and with the rmd roaming I thought that would occupy there full back so my rb would have spaces to exploit 

Would it make more sense to have the right sided full back on defend or support or change the AP?

In regards to managing my expectations I think I'm very realistic as in my first season I expected us to get relegated as we had no money to spend but going into the second season as you can see the difference in the 2 squads is so different and mid table should be ok and that's what I don't get as my first season we had no right staying up.

Regarding changing my tactic I do subtle tweeks here and there but if you have players that are good enough for mid table you're form shouldn't be so hit and miss 

How many times in real life do teams change formation for example my home team has changed formations twice yes I get you may need to be more defensive,attacking etc but you shouldn't have to keep chopping and changing formation 

[summatsupeer]

Rather than continuing match after match expecting a different result, spend more time on each match until you get things working.

Not seeing any attacking from your team, go to full match instead of highlights if needed and see why, dont just keep clicking continue or making blind changes.

I dont know why your so obsessed by "experience".  Just because a players got lots of games played doesnt define his personality.  Look at the coaches reports and see if Consistency or big matches are mentioned.  There personality will also affect the pressure/over confidence they feel in matches. Adaptability can also play a part, you've brought a lot of foreign players in (in one go?), are they under performing?

[Ciderarmy]

Hi summatsupeer the only one really is underperforming is barbosa I did buy him as a striker but I think he's a bit lightweight up front on his own and most of the foreign players actually have experience in England 

What I'm frustrated about is the fact we won 2 out of 16 then came on the forum got great advice applied it to my team and actually looked into my squad a bit more and then went on a run of no defeats in 11 and 6 clean sheets then it all happens again when I've done everything everyone has suggested it can't be just the fact that the AI is suddenly playing differently and that's why my form goes of a cliff.

[mp_87]

I think it's a combination, as others have said you maybe aren't doing enough to adapt over time or to different opponents. That doesn't just mean to swap mentalities or decide e.g. "this game I'll attack, next game I'll defend" - for a simple example to give you, one match the potential weakness of the opposition might be on their right flank, the next game you play it might be on the oppositions left flank. Etc. etc.

There is also the form/confidence factor - maybe on FM it is overblown slightly but we see often in real life "streaky" sides where they are flying and out of nowhere put a run of wins together but for other teams when they're struggling it's a herculean task to turn it around. 

Also the other day on the previous thread some of us were suggesting to stop chopping and changing so much, and I used examples of how in real life teams that import a whole squad-full of new players (eg. Fulham this season) very often struggle for identity and cohesion. The same is true on FM, you should notice "better football" and your team more easily and efficiently doing as you ask them over time the more games you play. However, after the last thread where you'd got a whole team of new players, I see again that for this current thread/season you have 8 new starting players. Cohesion and team gel etc. is going to have taken a massive whack.....

Everyone plays how they see fit and what time allows them but I'm another who'd say you need to slow down and not rush through so many games and seasons, at least not for now, and try to analyse things a bit more. That's surely going to be a benefit tactically, for all the reasons mentioned so far, and also might help with squad building - for instance you mention you've signed Barbosa but now aren't sure he can play as the lone striker in your system. I'm afraid you have to ask the question...... Why didn't that thought occur before you rushed out and signed him?

I agree with others also about the expectation factor. Of course everyone wants to push on and see linear progress, but in real life (and also in FM) the PL is so competitive and it fluctuates and there are probably 12-14 teams who start off a season with the number one objective of staying up, no matter what happened in the previous season. FGR must still be in your game a minnow team that has come a long way very quickly and, from a realism point of view, at this point staying up is an achievement that should be kept in mind.

[summatsupeer]

You seem to be conceding most games so maybe focus on analysing that, is there one particular weakness that you need to address?  Set pieces? Crosses? Counter attacks? Attacks through a certain part of the pitch?  Dont just go off gut, use the stats and watch them, did someone make a mistake or was the opponent just better than him on that occasion?

Then look at the tactic and players, is it a tactic setup issue that's being exploited or are the players just not strong at that type of defending?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:



 

3 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

and yet with this team we have 6 wins from 35 games.

I know people will say its the tactic but again after reading hours upon hours of advice this is the team

It's the tactic that is not adapted to the relative quality (strengths and weaknesses) of the team.

[Rashidi]

I think over time you need to ask yourself if you are holding your players back like Mourinho. Your players are performing better and better, so teams tend to sit back now more. So what have you done? I personally think you are giving them too much time to defend, and because you are such a low setting, you are also too pushed up, making you vulnerable to easy goals on the counter. Your tactic is not defensively resilient to handle this, just drop the defensive line to higher, LOE one notch and raise tempo to standard. Your performances will improve

Really funny story with Stalybridge, at the start of the season, i was expected to be thumped, now we are halfway through and the media expect us to thump Spurs. Expectations can change drastically when your form goes from no hoper to overachiever.

 

[Ciderarmy]

Thank Rashdi I will definitely give it a try do you think I'm missing something and should make my right side a bit more defensive as people have said it's to open?

I will post a screenshot later but after looking through my last 40 games I'm being told crossing is where I'm conceded most so I will have a look at that.

Hi MP I'm going through a few seasons as I'm of work at the moment so probably getting through 10 hours a day play fm lol 😂 

Ive gone through a few players as in my first season we got lucky and had to get better players as you can tell from my first squad it was really weak and I think recruitment wise I think I've done ok and I would of been silly not to go for them when they were available 

[Ciderarmy]

So had a look at the goals conceded and as you can see its from crosses and placed shots is it just to simple to say I need to find a way to tighten up on the wings or is there a problem through the middle?

[sporadicsmiles]

Wow, look at those statistics for a minute. What jumps out at you? (I'd be interested to know, actually, what you found shocking).

Here is what I could see from this.

1. You have conceded 14 goals from crosses. This either indicates you are being cut apart by counter attacks that your team simply does not handle, or your defence is really bad in the air. This is the first thing I would worry about. If you do not concede, you do not lose. Go and look at the goals you conceded. Make a note of what happened. Make some changes to stop it (as Rashidi says, lower the defensive line).

2. You have scored 3 goals from crosses in 40 matches!!! 40!! That is so few! How many crosses do you make per match? For me, this tells me you are extremely one dimensional. No team has to worry about you attacking their flanks. I have no idea if the AI can pick up on that, but it does not matter. You carry exactly one goal threat. Which is the through ball. That has to change. You need to vary your attacking phase. Wingers. Attacking full backs. Something to stretch the defence and give you an alternative to through balls.

3. 33 placed shots in 40 games conceded. This again screams that you are being cut open way too easily. This is a huge skew in the statistics. You are conceding too many of this goal type, you need to go and watch goals you concede to see how they happen, and make changes to prevent them. 

4. 16 clear cut chances in 40 games! I mean, even considering that the ME does not always show CCCs very well, that screams an attack that is doing the square root of sod all. It goes back to point 2. You are not varying the attack. You are easy to defend against. Probably because everything is through the middle. 

5. 36 clear cut chances against! Again, you are being cut open too easily. Far, far too easily. 

So, you are being exploited far too easily, while being way to anaemic offensively. I actually fired up my game where I am doing well as Leicester (5th season, top half team) so I can compare. I play the exact same base formation, with different default roles, PIs and TIs (which will vary depending on opposition). To compare.

- I have scored 22 goals from crosses and 21 goals from passes (short passes and through balls). I have a balanced attack which can provide a threat in multiple phases of the game.

- 28 assists from wide areas, 32 from central areas (as per the map on the analysis). Same as above, I vary the point of attack.

- The most common assist type against me is free kick. Which actually tells me I do not have a good set piece routine. Everything else is about the same. 

- I have more than 3 times more CCCs than I have conceded.

The reason I point this out is not to brag (I should be doing a lot better based on my stats than I actually am). The point I want to make is that this is a tactical issue you have. I play the same 433 you play, but with far more success. You are too easy to create chances against, and you are too inefficient at creating your own chances. This is a recipe for losing more games than you win. I too struggle to see patterns in the game when I am watching, because you have to be able to average things out automatically. I cannot spot problems very well in real time. From stats, however, I can find issues. 

So what would I do, in your case, without just telling you how to play?

First, I would sort out the defence. Drop the defensive line back a notch. See if it helps with the number and type of chances you concede. If it does not help, another notch. The same with LOE. First I would knock them both back one step. You need extremely good defenders to play a much higher DL. I would also have a defensive FB if I play against a 2 striker formation. Extra cover against the counter. You can remove if you want to chase a goal. 

Second, you TIs when in possession. You are playing a slow, patient game. Why? I use these instructions to kill a game I am winning. You are allowing the defensive side to always get into defensive position before you attack them. These may give you a high possession stat, but possession is worthless without goals. This is why Guardiola is a tactical genius, and Roberto Martinez is not. Possession football, at least for me, is a defensive strategy. Keep the ball, do not let the opposition have it, they cannot score. You need to be more incisive. 55% possesion + 3 goals beats 65% possession without a goal every single time. 

Third, vary your attack. You have no width, made worse by playing narrower. Everything depends on your AP (I guess he has the most assists in your team). If you have a tactic where everything depends on one player, if that player is shut down, you will play badly. If the player is out of form, you play badly. If the players he has to pass to are out of form, you play badly. You need to have at least 2 methods of attack in your tactic. You have one here. Vary things a little. Use a winger. Use an attacking fullback. Do not play narrow. Do not play slowly. Coupled to this, what is the job of your striker? To link play? To press? To score? I cannot tell from looking at this. 

Finally, think about your players. Can they do what you want them to do? You are asking a lot of some of them. 

Honestly it is not easy. I am sorry if I have appeared extremely critical here, but I think there is a clear link between how you are set up to play, and how you are playing. I do, however, think it is fixable. 

[Ciderarmy]

Many thanks Sporadicsmiles I think I have become confused as I had a tactic that got me to the prem from league 2 in 3 seasons and in my first season in the prem I survived and finish 11th.

When I came onto the forum and explain how I was playing people were telling me it was already wrong as I was playing a possesson game with a high tempo and people were you can only play short passing with low tempo etc and if you play wide on a possession game you will the lose the ball more as the players will be further apart.

Maybe I should of stuck to my original tactic and just tweeked it.

The trouble is ive confused myself so muchi don't know what to do.

I have taken your comments on board and this is what im thinking any views?

[Ciderarmy]

This was the original tactic that got us 3 promotions any views?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Ciderarmy said:

When I came onto the forum and explain how I was playing people were telling me it was already wrong as I was playing a possesson game with a high tempo and people were you can only play short passing with low tempo

I don't know who exactly told you that you "can only play short passing with low tempo", because it makes no sense. However, I remember what I (basically) told you back then, and that was based on analysis of the players you had at the moment - that your team is not good enough to play the high-tempo possession style you wanted to achieve, at least not in such a top-level competition as the EPL. And I also advised you - again based on the overall quality of your team - that you would have been better off if you had played some sort of more conservative football with counter-attacks as your main attacking weapon, rather than insisting on possession at all costs.

Btw, one can play on a high tempo and still dominate possession, but you need really good players, both technically and mentally. I play that way with Man Utd, and in most games we dominate possession (even though I personally don't care about possession stats at all). But Man Utd is a top team, and one of the strongest squads in the league.

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

So had a look at the goals conceded and as you can see its from crosses and placed shots is it just to simple to say I need to find a way to tighten up on the wings or is there a problem through the middle?

Firstly rather than making so many changes, lets look at some of the stats and consider what should be looked for and maybe adjusted in the tactic being used.

1. Mings loses the ball a lot, as a FB-Su with a DM-D, BBM-S and IF-S near him that is surprising.  I would watch him in future matches and check his attributes, Fewer Risky Passes and/or Dribble Less and/or Cross Less are options depending on why/how he's losing the ball so often, if this was a player I was looking to take risks with it then this information might not of been an issue.

2. A lot of crosses conceded from, plus through balls with placed shots in the box.  This suggests your high press is being exploited, either directly through counter attacks or pulling your defenders around and creating space, hence:

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Your tactic is not defensively resilient to handle this, just drop the defensive line to higher, LOE one notch and raise tempo to standard. Your performances will improve

Thats all i'd do at this point.  Then watch how things play out over the next few games.  Did they fix the issues?  Can we now move onto other issues, identify, analyses and address them.  Just changing from one tactic to another thats very different is likely to be going from one set of issues to a different set of issues unless your lucky or really know your players and what your doing.

[Ciderarmy]

Hi Summatsuper

Many thanks for your reply.im just loading my next game v Brentford and I'm going to try a couple of changes from the advice given.

My RWB is now a FB on support 

My RMD is now a Winger on attack 

My AP is on support 

My Attacking width is set to wide and my tempo is set to standard 

Ive ticked dribble less and the only other change is defensive line is set to standard 

Brentford are bottom of the league with 1 win in 20

[Ciderarmy]

So after the changes a great 3-0 win but very concerned Brentford had 20 shots even though only 5 were on target.

Also my striker gave away possession a lot,as I said im not very good at looking at the sats and being able to see whats right and whats wrong so ive posted some screenshots from the game and would to hear any thoughts or advice.

[Ciderarmy]

Again many thanks for all the advice and I guess im showing why I only played and didn't manage in real life and I love to learn about this game.

[Experienced Defender]

You are keeping changing certain elements of your tactic, but without really understanding what they actually do, so rather than creating a tactic through a logical thought process, you seem to be trying to find a "magic formula" on a random basis. Such an approach is not likely to get you anywhere. 

[Ciderarmy]

I think that's unfair as I was told my right side was to open and where my goals were coming from and in previous posts I have explained my thoughts and why I play the way I do so it is thought out.

And for my last game I changed my RMD to a winger to stretch the play 

I switched My wb to a full back for extra cover and made my ap not so attacking 

I switched my tempo up a notch as the tempo before was to slow and drop my defensive line down a notch as my defence couldn't handle a high line so how am I not understanding my team and my logic

I changed certain elements of my team to make it more defensive but also tried to have more attacking threat which was suggested in previous comments so I don't know how you come to that conclusion when we kept a clean sheet for the first time in ten games and scored 3 goals but hey I'll keep looking for that magic formula 

[Experienced Defender]

But that's exactly the problem - you look at each element of the tactic in isolation. In FM tactics, like in real-life football, everything is interrelated. The way you attack affects your defending, and vice versa. Mentality is the element of tactics that affects all other settings - when you change the mentality, you automatically change everything, even if you haven't even touched any other instruction. I'm just giving you examples here, not talking specifically of your last (variation of) tactic.

[sporadicsmiles]

11 hours ago, Ciderarmy said:

This was the original tactic that got us 3 promotions any views?

I think this is a much more balanced tactic that the other one actually. The things I can note.

1. You vary the point of attack. You can attack centrally, down the left flank, and possibly even the right flank depending on the FB you play and what PPMs he has.

2. All your players have adequate support around them to allow them to do their jobs.

3. You are not being overly aggressive with you defensive and pressing lines.

Now, I would take the first two points and try to integrate them into your new tactic. This is pretty much how you should approach tactic building in the first instance. Do all the players have adequate support? If not, can you get them better support? In the 41231, it is very easy to have your striker isolated, and to some extent your wide players. These need to link up to the midfield. I'd consider how to do that within the framework of how you want to play.

Also think about how you are going to score the goals. How do you imagine your players will create chances? Let me give you an example. If I played with a DLF(S), a W(S) and IF(A), and a DLP(S) and CM(A) as my front 5, what goals do I want to score? Well, there are at least 3 things I want to see happen.

- The DLF drops deep, creates some space by dragging a defender with him. The CM(A) runs into the space. He receives the ball from the DLF in space running into the penalty area. The DLF probably will link with the DLP. Or some variation of this with the IF.

- The W(s) takes on his man. The CM(A) (on his side) runs forward dragging the defense towards this flank. Perhaps the DLF also drifts into the same channel. Overload on one flank, defense is drawn in. The IF has space on his flank, gets the ball from a cross, has a scoring chance.

- The DLF gets the ball deep, has space to turn and can attack the defense. He draws in defenders, leaves space for the IF/CM to run into, passes the ball, creates a chance.

Here, my point is that I know exactly what type of chances I want (or expect) to see. I also have defined roles for my players. The IF is a major goal threat. The CM a goal threat and someone to flood specific areas of the pitch. The DLF may chip in with goals, but he is mostly aiming to create space. You can then vary how well these different scoring chances work, how often you see them, etc., by using PIs or TIs to vary how you play. In your case, you want to play slower paced football. I would in that case have some players with a license to disobey this and suddenly inject some directness (perhaps the "more risky passes" PI).

[Ciderarmy]

Thanks for the reply appreciate all the advice given looking at the rolls and duties you have explained that was kind of what I was thinking and I will definitely have a look at that.

The only problem I have all my wingers like to cut inside so this could be a issue on the right flank Regarding the transition TI do you think it's best to leave this alone even though I want my team to press the opposition can I do this through players Pi?

Also what do you think regarding short passing with a higher tempo?