"The new DRM will ruin the game!"

[Indi75]

You are wrong my friend.

We are the most powerful people here.

We are Paying Customers, we pay the wages of SI/SEGA.

We have a right to be heard, and respected.

I'm not your friend. Don't be presumptious.

You've stated you'll not be purchasing the game, thus making you not a paying customer at all, which by your own reckoning rends you entirely powerless.

Whilst we may indeed have a right to be heard, there is no actual requirement to respect 'we', and 'we' are very unlikely to make even the smallest dent in Sega's customer base even if 'we' were to incite the rebellion you seemingly crave.

I forgot to mention, there is no 'we' as I too disagree with you, and mostly because the argument you have seemingly joined the forum to make is both fruitless and irrelevant.

I refer you to my previous statement....

It's being released with activation. Sega and SI hath spoken, lets not flog the dead horse over and over.

[ftg87]

You are wrong my friend.

We are the most powerful people here.

We are Paying Customers, we pay the wages of SI/SEGA.

We have a right to be heard, and respected.

Until Sports Interactive say that their position will not change, I will quite simply not stop on this most righteous of quests, to get DRM in its present form, as far away from FM as possible.

Jeez, sermon or what?

In all seriousness tho, yeah we may pay the wages of Sega and SI by paying for their products but that doesn't give us a right to order things from them, which you seem to believe is the case.

These forums give us a chance to voice our opinions about FM and, in my experience, SI are absolutely fantastic at responding to what their customer base thinks will be improvements to the series, when you look back at the changes made in 09, a lot of them have come from right here, albeit possibly indirectly, but that is neither here nor there

The crux of the matter is, no matter what we think, SI have a right to do as much as they can to try to avoid piracy of their products and people like you on a deluded "righteous quest" aint gonna change that

[AJ1]

AJ1: But 5 installs is extremely unlikely to affect hardly any legitimate user so I don't know hat you are worrying about.

Im worried about one of my most looked forward to games of the year being ruined.

EA do this kind of thing and completely wreck Spore and then Red Alert 3.

The MPAA have this idea of suing people left right and centre.

If we allow sense and sensibility to be thrown away, and our liberties and rights as paying customers to be revoked just because someone shouts piracy, then what kind of a gaming culture are we allowing to step into the breach.

Whatever happened to common sense?

Piracy has been around since the Amiga, hell i even enjoyed cracking the old floppy's, piracy is not going to disappear nor touch SI/SEGA just because they have an Authentication

Method/Install Limit - If they created measures that tackled piracy i would throw my full support behind them.

Sadly, they like EA target the paying customer.

You know what SI/SEGA should do, release the game DRM free, and not require the DVD to play.

If people aren't going to buy it, then they aren't going to buy it, you cant force people too.

Just release it, and understand that Piracy does not represent a lost sale

EA Corporate Communications Office - Mariam Sughayer Quotes

"To say that every download represents a successful copy of the game--or that there's been more than 500,000 copies downloaded--that's just not true."

"Stepping aside from the whole issue of DRM, people need to recognize that every BitTorrent download doesn't represent a successful copy of a game, let alone a lost sale,"

And how long before the below statement is replaced with Sports Interactive/SEGA instead of Electronic Arts and Spore is replaced by Football Manager 2009:

"There doesn't seem to be much disagreement that Electronic Arts botched the launch of Spore with heavy-handed digital rights management. However, the company reacted quickly and was able to update the game with a less oppressive scheme that calmed most of the masses."

[ftg87]

Im worried about one of my most looked forward to games of the year being ruined.

Didn't bother reading rest of the post, just wanna know how the DRM will ruin FM?

[--b--]

Im worried about one of my most looked forward to games of the year being ruined.

how will it be ruined? please provide one clear explanation why this is the case?

lets not go into silly hypotheticals about 5 uninstalls etc too.

[philly_flyer10]

All this debate over something we are powerless to change.

It's being released with activation. Sega and SI hath spoken, lets not flog the dead horse over and over.

If you ain't buying it good luck to you, but stop shouting it at every opportunity, noone cares.

Completely wrong, it will change if SI lose money. EA changed their spore activation on games after the uproar, Im sure in time they will drop that activation all together.

If you think its bad now, just wait until release day, its going to get 10 times worse. Especially when people lose activations.

[Cavenagh]

When will Sports Interactive/SEGA realise this simple fact:

Forcing DRM onto the customers who buy the game will not stop piracy, if anything they are helping to promote it.

What Sports Interactive/SEGA SHOULD be saying is this:

Every customer has to Activate their copy of the game, but once activated, they can remove all DRM from the game, and no install limits will be imposed, also every version of the game should not require the DVD to be in the Drive (the method below will remove that requirement)

. Upon starting FM 09 you have to enter the CD-Key on the back of the manual.

A lost manual is far more likely than having to reformat a computer five times. So to get a new key the user would have to contact SI/Sega. As inconvenient as having to contact them if you've carelessly used all five installs and need another.

2. This should then go to SI/SEGA, be approved, and generate a new unique Key that is sent back to FM09 from the server.

3. The User then uses this key to install the game, registering the game in the process tieing that Unique Key to their account.

Where is the difference? It's the same as having the game automatically do it. The only change you've made is that the user has to fill out a form.

4. They can then use this Unique Key to install the game as many times as they like, once it gets past 5 a flag should show up to SI staff, which they can then monitor the situation and if need be contact that customer directly.

How would this be flagged? Do you really want a system where the game connects to the internet without the users permission?

Thats how this should be solved.

By making it more intrusive and complex and more likely to result in inconvenience to the customer?

[Indi75]

Piracy has been around since the Amiga, hell i even enjoyed cracking the old floppy's

A mod, a mod, my kingdom for a mod. tut, tut.

[AJ1]

Didn't bother reading rest of the post, just wanna know how the DRM will ruin FM?

It could ruin it in a number of ways, by not allowing you to play the damn thing for a start, look im going to end this here, I've explained my argument and many of you have agreed and disagreed.

The fact of the matter is that we are not going to reach an agreement that is considered to be endorsed by the majority, I very much believe that if you took a poll of the forums it would probably be 50/50.

DRM is going to be implemented in Football Manager 2009, Do i agree with it? Yes, of course i do. Do i agree with the way its being implemented, no i do not.

I think Sports Interactive and SEGA could do a much, much better job with it, at least one that actually tackles piracy or at least tries too.

It will be cracked/activated/hacked as soon as "they" get a copy of it, so if the point of these measures is to stop piracy, and we all know that they aren't going to work, whether people admit it or not, why have them in at all?

[Indi75]

Completely wrong, it will change if SI lose money. EA changed their spore activation on games after the uproar, Im sure in time they will drop that activation all together.

If you think its bad now, just wait until release day, its going to get 10 times worse. Especially when people lose activations.

It'll be the biggest selling FM yet, stop being hysterical, it's getting ridiculous now.

Anyone looking at AJ1's opening four threads on this forum can see he's got delusions of grandeur, don't let him shake your soda.

[ftg87]

I very much believe that if you took a poll of the forums it would probably be 50/50.

Like this one?

[AJ1]

Anyone looking at AJ1's opening four threads on this forum can see he's got delusions of grandeur, don't let him shake your soda.

"Shake your soda" - I dont want to shake anyones soda thanks very much.

I want to raise an issue and bring it to the forefront.

We're having a very healthy debate.

[--b--]

It could ruin it in a number of ways, by not allowing you to play the damn thing for a start, look im going to end this here, I've explained my argument and many of you have agreed and disagreed.

so no clear explanation then... hardly surprising....

[AJ1]

Like this one?

Link doesnt work ... try again ...

[AJ1]

so no clear explanation then... hardly surprising....

What part of "by not allowing you to play the damn thing for a start" dont you understand?

[--b--]

What part of "by not allowing you to play the damn thing for a start" dont you understand?

how will it not allow to to play the game, dopey?

[Come Clarity]

AJ1, could you please answer my initial question...?

[ftg87]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=53722

[philly_flyer10]

It'll be the biggest selling FM yet, stop being hysterical, it's getting ridiculous now.

Anyone looking at AJ1's opening four threads on this forum can see he's got delusions of grandeur, don't let him shake your soda.

Stop saying things you simply cannot know are correct. The only one getting hysterical is you coming out with clairvoyant sales figures.

[Indi75]

"Shake your soda" - I dont want to shake anyones soda thanks very much.

Soil the bed!! How'd you manage to get a euphemism out of that?

We're having a very healthy debate.

I'm not sure that 'we' who represent the overwhelming number of people who could care less are having anything like a debate. You might be, the rest of us appear to be winning an argument.

[Navie]

"Shake your soda" - I dont want to shake anyones soda thanks very much.

I want to raise an issue and bring it to the forefront.

We're having a very healthy debate.

Well its not looking very healthy for you...

[philly_flyer10]

Like this one?

Last time I looked on here, 22% of people who voted were not going to buy the game due to DRM.

Now thats pretty significant drop in figures.

[Indi75]

Stop saying things you simply cannot know are correct. The only one getting hysterical is you coming out with clairvoyant sales figures.

Nothing hysterical about it, nothing clairvoyant either, it'll just sell more. Period.

[--b--]

Last time I looked on here, 22% of people who voted were not going to buy the game due to DRM.

Now thats pretty significant drop in figures.

yep, what a hilarious statistic.

id hazzard a guess that many of those still buy the game. do you honestly thing its a clear cut promise not to buy.

oh and i find it amazing that there are so many dopes out there who wouldnt buy a game simply because they have to authenticate it. its all quite a mountain out of a mole hill isnt it.

[philly_flyer10]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=53722

So theres going to be a 25% drop of sales figures among the most hardcore of fans on here, I bet that would translate to 30 or 40% drop when you take into account the less hardcore people.

[pelicanstuff]

Last time I looked on here, 22% of people who voted were not going to buy the game due to DRM.

Now thats pretty significant drop in figures.

You're neglecting the forum-effect. People who use internet forums are not exactly representative of the population in general.

[Ranson52]

For what it’s worth my two bob’s worth.

I don’t have a problem with all this encryption stuff.

Companies are entitled to protect their property and for me SI/SEGA are within their rights to apply encryption protection, as it is also our right to avoid buying the product affected if that is our will.

Some time ago I bought Settlers 4 and found I had to apply an activation code.

Subsequently I had to rebuild the machine, and then bought a new machine, and each occasion simply installed Settlers activated it, and carried on.

I don’t see the big deal.

Quite frankly, unless you cruising the internet and getting your PC infected with viruses and malware, I fail to see the big deal here.

Nowadays there is plenty of protection for your PC available and if you employ simply basic PC housekeeping you really shouldn’t have an issue.

I say go for it, it makes no big deal to me to put in an activation code.

[philly_flyer10]

yep, what a hilarious statistic.

id hazzard a guess that many of those still buy the game. do you honestly thing its a clear cut promise not to buy.

oh and i find it amazing that there are so many dopes out there who wouldnt buy a game simply because they have to authenticate it. its all quite a mountain out of a mole hill isnt it.

I bet people who lost their entire music collections when yahoo, msn and other sites closed down thought people who wouldnt buy games were dopes.

Imagine how you would feel if the DRM company went broke and their servers went down.

[Indi75]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=53722

22% at present. Now then, how many people in that thread who jumped onto the bandwagon of interactivist protest have subsequently been seen enjoying the demo elsewhere?

How many of these people have been discussing their preorder in the preorder threads of which there are seemingly many?

22%? I think not. It's a forum, it's prone to all manner of subjective bias and not remotely representative of the gaming populous.

[philly_flyer10]

You're neglecting the forum-effect. People who use internet forums are not exactly representative of the population in general.

No, they will be more faithful and more fanboyish than the general Fm playing population, the effect of reduced sales will be worse when people who arent hardcore players realise whats going on.

[AJ1]

Excuse me?!

1/4 of the customer base, isn't retrospective of a significant drop in figures?

What kind of planet are you deluded individuals on? Your on a pro DRM quest, you want your whole lives to be DRM'ed! Whats wrong with you lot?

1/4 of the people who took that Poll said No to DRM! that equates too £6447.85p worth of sales lost due to a Anti-Stupid-DRM Adoption.

So lets look at what Sports Interactive/SEGA have achieved from their DRM Adoption:

Sales of the game are down = £6447.85p

Pirated Version of the Game Stopped due to DRM = 0

Who's winning the debate now? - DRM is simply a waste of time.

[--b--]

I bet people who lost their entire music collections when yahoo, msn and other sites closed down thought people who wouldnt buy games were dopes.

Imagine how you would feel if the DRM company went broke and their servers went down.

imagine the range of crazy possibilities we could all think up.

its all quite over the top.

ever heard "cross that bridge when we come to it"?

oh and i note you ignored my comment re the silly 22% statistic. i therefore take it you agree...

[ftg87]

Excuse me?!

1/4 of the customer base, isn't retrospective of a significant drop in figures?

What kind of planet are you deluded individuals on? Your on a pro DRM quest, you want your whole lives to be DRM'ed! Whats wrong with you lot?

1/4 of the people who took that Poll said No to DRM! that equates too £6447.85p worth of sales lost due to a Anti-Stupid-DRM Adoption.

So lets look at what Sports Interactive/SEGA have achieved from their DRM Adoption:

Sales of the game are down = £6447.85p

Pirated Version of the Game Stopped due to DRM = 0

Who's winning the debate now? - DRM is simply a waste of time.

That isn't 1/4 of the customer base, it is 200 odd people on a forum who have more than likely thrown their toys out of the pram at the thought of the DRM

[pelicanstuff]

No, they will be more faithful and more fanboyish than the general Fm playing population, the effect of reduced sales will be worse when people who arent hardcore players realise whats going on.

No, internet forum users are whiny drama-queens with an overinflated ego.

Most people who play FM won't have ever even heard of DRM, in any case.

[--b--]

Excuse me?!

1/4 of the customer base, isn't retrospective of a significant drop in figures?

What kind of planet are you deluded individuals on? Your on a pro DRM quest, you want your whole lives to be DRM'ed! Whats wrong with you lot?

who's calling who deluded? retrospective? i think you mean representative....

if you honestly think those who clicked NO have given a promise not to buy the game and SI will indeed face a 22% drop in sales, it is you that is deluded.

[Indi75]

when people who arent hardcore players realise whats going on.

There's nothing to realise. The game will have an element of security, just like EVERY other game. Stop trying to incite panic. Most people buying FM won't even think about DRM, they'll buy the game, expect to activate it or enter a code of some sort and subsequently enjoy it just like every other year. Most of them won't even know what DRM stands for.

[philly_flyer10]

imagine the range of crazy possibilities we could all think up.

its all quite over the top.

ever heard "cross that bridge when we come to it"?

oh and i note you ignored my comment re the silly 22% statistic. i therefore take it you agree...

No, it will be much higher than that due to the huge fanboy population here which isnt representative of the FM playing population, a casual player is a lot less likely to buy the game due to DRM than a hardcore player.

Surely you can at least see that?

[jod123]

Excuse me?!

1/4 of the customer base, isn't retrospective of a significant drop in figures?

What kind of planet are you deluded individuals on? Your on a pro DRM quest, you want your whole lives to be DRM'ed! Whats wrong with you lot?

1/4 of the people who took that Poll said No to DRM! that equates too £6447.85p worth of sales lost due to a Anti-Stupid-DRM Adoption.

So lets look at what Sports Interactive/SEGA have achieved from their DRM Adoption:

Sales of the game are down = £6447.85p

Pirated Version of the Game Stopped due to DRM = 0

Who's winning the debate now? - DRM is simply a waste of time.

One of those people that voted no said they will they will buy FM09 so that is 1.

Also how do you now how many more customers FM09 will attract. You can't say that unless you see the figures for sales.

[philly_flyer10]

There's nothing to realise. The game will have an element of security, just like EVERY other game. Stop trying to incite panic. Most people buying FM won't even think about DRM, they'll buy the game, expect to activate it or enter a code of some sort and subsequently enjoy it just like every other year. Most of them won't even know what DRM stands for.

See spore.

[--b--]

No, it will be much higher than that due to the huge fanboy population here which isnt representative of the FM playing population, a casual player is a lot less likely to buy the game due to DRM than a hardcore player.

Surely you can at least see that?

haha,, why one earth will a casual player not buy the game due to DRM.

they see the game n the shop and buy it and activate it.

you are making things up to support youre very weak argument.

[Indi75]

DRM is simply a waste of time.

In your opinon.

Now then, it's coming with DRM. Are you buying it or not? What will you be playing instead?

[AJ1]

who's calling who deluded? retrospective? i think you mean representative....

if you honestly think those who clicked NO have given a promise not to buy the game and SI will indeed face a 22% drop in sales, it is you that is deluded.

Why have the poll at all then?

Why have any poll for that matter?

What a completely unintelligent thing to say, and yes i meant retrospective, do you even know what i means? or shall i explain it too you?

[ftg87]

No, it will be much higher than that due to the huge fanboy population here which isnt representative of the FM playing population, a casual player is a lot less likely to buy the game due to DRM than a hardcore player.

Surely you can at least see that?

And how exactly is the casual player going to know about the DRM before they purchase the game? Most people who buy FM will just go buy it, activate it and play without worrying about all these hypothetical issues that have been brought up

[philly_flyer10]

One of those people that voted no said they will they will buy FM09 so that is 1.

Also how do you now how many more customers FM09 will attract. You can't say that unless you see the figures for sales.

But that doesnt change the fact that DRM has stopped sales while it wont prevent piracy.

Couple that with the fact 3 or 4 people can pool their money and easily own 1 out of the 5 activations each and you can see theyve really shot themselves in the foot with this.

[jod123]

No, it will be much higher than that due to the huge fanboy population here which isnt representative of the FM playing population, a casual player is a lot less likely to buy the game due to DRM than a hardcore player.

Surely you can at least see that?

You always talk about "fanboys" while I have not seen hardly any. Most people on here know there is flaws in the game. I don't want to go off on a tandem here but why do you always seem to bring "fanboys" in to every debate you are involved in?

[CaptainPlanet]

Morals > DRM

I won't install more than 5 times before FM10, I won't download illegally, it won't take me long to activate then not have to bother with.

I personally think all games should have some sort of online authentication in an attempt to reduce piracy, but it would have to be really hard-coded into the game and difficult to get through for it to have a decent enough impact.

[ftg87]

What a completely unintelligent thing to say, and yes i meant retrospective, do you even know what i means? or shall i explain it too you?

"Retrospective (from Latin retrospectare, "look back") generally means to take a look back at events that already have taken place"

So clearly you do not know what it means

[jod123]

But that doesnt change the fact that DRM has stopped sales while it wont prevent piracy.

Couple that with the fact 3 or 4 people can pool their money and easily own 1 out of the 5 activations each and you can see theyve really shot themselves in the foot with this.

With your 2nd point, they can do that anyway and more. What would you suggest then? Only have 1 install and that would solve your 2nd point.

[Interloper]

Activation, Activation, Activation, three immortal words that no "gamer" should ever have to hear, let alone feel forced to write a post about.

We are all very well aware of the problems faced by Piracy, but the fact of the matter is, is that no matter what Sports Interactive/Sega do, within a very short space of time, Football Manager 2009 is going to appear on a whole host of websites for people to grab for free and with not much effort, with the previously mentioned Activation disabled or circumvented.

Therefore with this reality foretold, I do not see the benefits to penalising your customers and ensuring that we (who buy the game with our hard earned money, and pay your wages) have as difficult a time as possible actually playing the game (thats after we've handed over our hard earned money, and paid your wages).

Im actually debating whether or not to purchase the game now, I purposefully did not buy Red Alert 3 or Spore for these exact same reasons, Activation and DRM are just things that irritate me, and serve more to penalise the loyal customer than they actually do the pirate or non paying customer as the politically correct term may be.

I buy the game from the shop, I do not then expect to come home and have to "Activate" my copy the actually play the game, I also do not wish to have to have an install limit, I tend to do a lot of formats, and I am not looking forward to the prospect of phoning SI Tech Support and running up my phone bill even more, taking photo's of my receipts and sending them in just to prove I have the game and be given another CD-Key.

I would also like to install the game on a Laptop i own so that when im at work or out and about, i want to take my copy (which ive purchased) of FM with me.

Just because you have "Activation" or "Authentication" features in the game, what Sports Interactive/SEGA assume that Piracy is going to be wiped out for FM09?! - If anything it will serve as a point for pirates to crack it faster and basically say "stfu".

Your actually doing to very opposite to what you seek to achieve, and whoever sits in the boardrooms at SI needs to have a long hard look at this Activation system and ask themselves, Do we really want to penalise and make life as difficult as possible for our paying customers? - while the pirates will be playing the same game without any of this fuss.

Piracy happens, It will always happen, and I personally dont believe there is anything anybody can do to stop it. SI/SEGA cant do anything about it either, but penalising your loyal customers is not the way forward.

I would like to think that this is a measure introduced by SEGA rather than Sports Interactive, Give us a break guys, stop these draconian measures now, before users lose trust, get annoyed and walk away from one of the most trusted game developers in the world. Sports Interactive - We thought you were on our side!.

Feel free to reply.

Best post i have seen for a while here.

I can easily live with security but all this activation on their servers and only 5 installs makes me sick, sure go ahead and put alot of anti piracy stuff on there but you dont have to limit our installs or make us have to activate on your servers... I dont want to call in and beg for a new install when my six install comes, having the cd in while playing it ? Well it is a bit annoying but much better than this alternative.

[philly_flyer10]

And how exactly is the casual player going to know about the DRM before they purchase the game? Most people who buy FM will just go buy it, activate it and play without worrying about all these hypothetical issues that have been brought up

I believe they will have to have something on the box about the DRM and people know more about DRM than you realise.

http://www.amazon.com/Spore-Mac/dp/B000FKBCX4/ref=sr_1_1/189-3393423-0689234?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1226281512&sr=1-1

2600 of the 3100 votes game the game a 1 star due to the DRM. Read the reviews to educate yourself on peoples feelings about DRM and how this drove half a million people to download it DRM free.