Tiki Taka - At a waypoint. Evolution or revolution ahead?

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

Introduction

I have developed at tactic influenced by how Guardiola made Barcelona and now Bayern Munich play. The former was where his interpretation of possession based football was first introduced at a higher level. The latter is where he is trying to develop it further. It can be argued that tactical trends goes in cycles. Winning tactical trends has to be countered. Trends need to adjust and evolve to counter this again.

This is the cycle of football tactics. Both in real life and for me on FM, Guardiola`s ideas are at a waypoint in this cycle. Will they evolve based on the original principles, or will they change by adapting and merging the original principles with new ideas.

The tactic I developed faces the same challenges on FM15 as it would in real life (credit to FM15 for that). I regularly achieve high possession stats. Up to 70 % in matches. Away to big opponents as Manchester United and such my team achieve possession around 60 %. The possession side of the tactic is working as I want it to. Attackingly like wise, we score a lot of goals, create even more chances and this is not where the challenge lies.

The challenge lies in countering opponents counter-attacks. As pushing the team insanely high up the pitch and closing down the opponents extremely high up the pitch, are major parts of how Guardiola wants his football to be played. This makes his teams vulnerable. The space left behind his defenders are enormously, this space is also the most lethal space to give away.

How to counter this space being exploited? First of all you need to have an excellent balance in your team. A good balance is vital for quick transitions. As such the transition from attack to defence where the high closing down comes into play, goes fast. It is an absolute neccessity with intense closing down high up the pitch, when you position your team so high up the pitch. You will never be able to cover the space behind your defenders playing this way, so the only solution is to prevent passes going into it.

As important is how your team fare with the ball when in possession. The risk taking should be much lower when distributing the ball compared to teams sitting lower. Only at the last phase of the attack, when an sufficient opportunity arise and the team is in the right balance, should risk be taken. To sum up the principles this are the keywords: Sit high, high pressing, well-balanced, low risk taking, safe distribution of the ball. If all of this is achieved, you will lower the threat of beeing exploited on counter attacks.

These principles can for most parts be incorporated into FM15. Style of play in FM15 consists of: Tactical instructions, training, PlayerPreferredMoves and player attributes. If you want to play like Guardiola`s teams all four of these elements needs to be suitable present and further enhanced towards Guardiolas principles.

The tactical instructions should be based on your strenghts and the opponents weakness. This is very important for reducing the risk of beeing counter-attacked against. You reduce the risk of losing the ball when playing to your teams strengths. Likewise you deny the opponents the opportunity to play to their strenghts. If you deny them this, you will come along way closer to secure the space you leave behind your defensive line.

Training should be focused towards developing the individual attributes needed for playing this way. An even more important aspect of training is to increase the teams ability to work coherent as a team. If the team has low team cohesion and teamwork, this style of play will not work. Remember the risk you expose yourself to, by leaving the big space behind your defensive line. There are no margin of error here.

This style of play is very demanding in sense of having the right players suitable for it. Players with attributes unable to distribute the ball safely, without the technique to receive and control the ball in congested areas, unable to press the opponents as a team for the full 90 minutes due to lacking fitness or understanding of the game, will lead to your team beeing exposed on the counter attacks. A recipe for disaster.

The PPM`s plays an important role towards shaping the team. PPM`s are the players traits. They will perform them even if you counter them with individual tactical instructions. Try to remove the PPM`s that conflicts with the style of play, whilst try to learn the PPM`s that suits the style of play.

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

The Tactic

Formation

The game classifies the formation I use as an 4-1-2-3 DM WB Wide.

It consists of the following positions: 2 central defenders, 2 wingbacks, 1 defensive midfielder, 2 central midfielders, 2 wide attacking midfielders and one striker. This is the formation I use. From this starting point it is possible to shift shape to counter threats and exploit faults.

http://i.imgur.com/PPhcmYP.jpg[/img]"]

For me it is an 4-3-3 that reshapes into an 3-4-3 when attacking. There are two reasons why I settled on wingbacks positions instead of fullback positions. The next image shows the amount of available space between the fullbacks and wingers marked in blue with the present formation. Marked in black is the space that would be available if fullback positions had been choosen. One main reason for choosing wingback positions is to tighten up the formation by decreasing the mentioned space. The other option would be to choose a 4-1-4-1 formation. It does the exact same thing by moving the wingers backwards to the midfield line. Since I want to press extremely high up the pitch I settled for this formation, as it has players positioned higher up the pitch.

http://i.imgur.com/1ChzDuX.jpg[/img]"]

The second reason for choosing this formation with wingback positions will be explained by the next image. The two central defenders (Sahko/Wisdom) and the half-back (Lucas) positions themselves as an back three during the starting phases of the attack.

This maintain width in the backline with one player less, the player removed from defence are added to the midfield and makes it easier to distribute the ball safely. Also the three diamonds that the 3-4-3 shapes enables has been marked out. This is a great benefit when distributing the ball. Another advantage is that it could also suit a more direct style if preffered.

http://i.imgur.com/BMVAWUS.jpg[/img]"]

The next image shows the exact same thing. This time the central midfielders have been marked, to show that they are the two players present in all three diamonds that the 3-4-3 shapes creates. This gives an important indication that they will see and pass the ball alot. They need to have good skill in receiving the ball in congested areas and also be able to safely distribute the ball to other teammates.

http://i.imgur.com/Zx0SUva.jpg[/img]"]

Team Instructions

I play with Control mentality and Very Fluid team shape. This is in accordance with how I want my team to play. I want them to control games with the whole team involved in both defending and attacking.

http://i.imgur.com/j9HYg7B.jpg[/img]"]

Play Narrower and with a Much Higher Defensive line is for setting a high block. Close Down Much More is an must when playing with the high block. The high block and high press lets the one enable the other. They are like a hand in a glove. Stay On Feet is important for maintaining the high pressure. Players commiting to the ground, leaves holes in your high block. The pressure on the opponents and the hindering of passing angles/lanes will suffer as an result. Use Offside Trap are for limiting the balls over our defensive line and a way to try to cover the enormous space behind our defensive line. This is also in compliance with a style of play based on teamwork and cohesion. This is needed for the offside trap to work. Prevent Short GK Distribution is in accordance with the high Closing down. This is how the team acts when defending and trying to regain possession.

When attacking or having possession the instructions are as followed: Play Out Of Defence, Retain Possession and Work Ball Into Box is the path the team follows when in possession. We play out of our own defence. We retain possession whilst patiently working the ball into the box looking for goalscoring opportunities. The ball might be distributed back to the defensive line, to start all over again whilst doing this. The Shorter Passing and Much Higher Tempo leads to quick one touch football (Individual Instructions backs this up), this makes it hard for the opponents to gain hold of the ball. It lets us distribute the ball more safely whilst looking for an opening. When the opportunity arise the team has both the ability and the tempo to quickly exploit it. This leads to an style of play that also plays on the counter-attack when the opportunity to do so and create chances are good. The Low Crosses are just my personal preference. When playing with strikers with good heading ability and jumping, there are no reasons why this should not be exploited. This is playing to your strenghts.

Also the Penetration options lets you further enhance your teams strenghts as well as exploiting possible weaknesses with the opponent team.

Team Instructions govern the attacking and defending phase of play. Player roles and duties dictates how your team handles the two transition phases of play.

Player Roles

I have choosen player roles solely based on which roles gives me the most freedom in assigning instructions. Later on in this article (individual instructions) you will see why this is the case. As I use individual instructions to further enhance the style of play, these are important.

My biggest wish for the next FM would be more freedom in giving players instructions. As it is now you choose a role and must live with some of the instructions it is automatically given. This takes away some of the ingenuity from the game. It also limits the way you can tailor the way you want your team to play. As it is now, you might want the movement from a role but not the risk involved. Then you have to choose. This is not a good thing, it hinders creativity in the process of tactic making. In the future, the option to tailor your own roles should exist in the game.

GK

Here i choose the Sweeper Keeper role with an defend duty.

Ideally I would want this role to be positioned higher up the pitch and still distribute the ball with low risk. As it is now, you will have to choose. I therefore choose low risk in ball distribution and settle for the defend duty. As for now, you have the possibility to tailor your GK passing. This is vital, specifically when beeing closed down early by opponents. This gives you an opportunity to still distribute the ball safely from the GK.

http://i.imgur.com/BoBOe2Y.jpg[/img]"]

DC`s

Both roles are identical; central defender on defend duty. When playing the Offside-Trap i consider this to be the best way to set up the roles in the middle of the defence. Their distribution of the ball is set to shorter. This is to minimise the risk taken in the build up play. Risk is primarily taken higher up the pitch when the team is in good balance. With more players behind the ball. They are also encouraged to close down more.

http://i.imgur.com/8VJHJ7p.jpg[/img]"]

DM

The defensive midfielder are given the Half Back role. This is critical in acchieving the 3-4-3 shape when attacking. Less risk is taken in ball distribution here also. He is given the same Closing Down instructions as the central defenders. This since I more og less wants him to play like them in certain phases of the play. If you want to shift the shape of your team this position is useful for it. If you want to revert to pure 4-3-3 give him a different role/duty, this will lead to three central midfielders.

The weakness with this role is that he sometimes venture further up the field leaving a big gap behind him. Pace with the player in this role and/or the central defenders counters this problem to a certain extent. Also PPM`s can come into use here to counter the problem. The PPM Stay Back At All Times is very useful here.

http://i.imgur.com/yQbB5M7.jpg[/img]"]

WBL/WBR

Both roles are also here identical. I want the symmetry given by this. As standard the roles are Wingback on Support duty. I don`t want them to dribble in the initiation phase of the build-ups. Also they provide the width to the team by staying wider. If you want to shift shape, give them attack duties and you easily got a x-x-5 shape that overloads the flanks. With more frequent overlaps high up the pitch. The drawback here is that an attacking duty will lead to the player dribbling and crossing often. You can not change this. I want the movement, but want to reduce the risk of dribbles and crosses to mixed. You could stick to the balanced duty and try to give the wingback appropriate PPM`s to acchieve the forward runs. The instructions given here leads to a great balance in your team. The wingbacks are quick in their transitions back to defence. By giving your wingbacks defend duty you can play with a pure back four also.

http://i.imgur.com/K7AGYbB.jpg[/img]"]

MC`s

Identical instructions for these players also. Central Midfielders on Support duty. They are the engine in your team. They have important roles in distributing the ball safely. They should positioning themselves so they constantly are available for passes. They are allowed to take more risk when passing the ball, not too much though. They are also important in keeping a good balance within the team. With their instructions they keep a very good balance in the center of the pitch.

There is an option for one of them to be given an attacking duty to penetrate the space behind the opponents defenders. This comes with the cost of reduced balance in the team though. If this solution is choosed, you should make amends by providing cover from other players to regain the balance again.

http://i.imgur.com/QmRTPL8.jpg[/img]"]

RTHerringbone · January 1, 2015

Amazed this hasn't had a response as yet

It's a nice couple of posts and always good to see something slightly different on the forum.

The bit I am interested in is the use of two Wide Target Men, and I guess that'll be revealed shortly. On paper, my assumption is that they will hugely influence the passing targeting of your team, so I'm wondering if their job is to receive a longish pass then hold up play for the advancing team? Their selection doesn't seem in keeping with a pure tiki-taka system, but this system isn't 100% in that mould anyway. Good stuff.

jean.lamy84 · January 1, 2015

Maybe we are a little bit shy interrupting cmonreds writing his great stuff. I'm already trying the tactical stuff he is sharing

yonko · January 1, 2015

Top quality! I remember you made similar nice thread last year for FM 14 and we had nice discussions. This looks like it could be another one of those.

I've had less time to play FM lately, plus I was waiting for the Steklo skin to be released (which it has happened now), so I haven't had time to work on a possessions based tactic in Guardiola's style.

But I think this thread will inspire me to get things started.

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

Thanks for the replies. I will finish the opening posts first. I don`t see the end of this yet. The thought is to show how you make a good base tactic. Then how to adapt and make it better/more suitable against different opponents, better in the sense of obtaining your targets. For me that is having majority of possession and winning matches.

There is going to be some reading for the ones interested, after the reading has been finished you will understand the theory/thinking behind it. I am sure the forum can make the tactic and its alterations better, than I could have made it alone.

I am not able to use any more images on the second post, so I have to continue on this post.

AML/AMR

Both players are given identical role, duty and instructions.

The sole reason why I landed on using the Wide Target Man role with Attacking duty, is that it gives me the most freedom in assigning instructions to the players. Nothing more. I have played with Inside Forwards and Ramdeuters as well. But with these roles you are forced to accept instructions enforced upon the role. Some of these instructions conflicts with how much risk I am willing to accept.

With the Wide Target Man there is just one camel to swallow. You are forced to play with wingers holding up the ball. At firste I was sceptical to this but decided to try it out. Compared to the other roles this is still my first choice. Inside Forwards have no crossing and there is too much risk involved with their dribbling. The second best alternative is the Ramdeuter. The major drawback is their lack of crossing in the role.

Still, if you change the shape of your tactic and decide to play with wingbacks on attacking duty, inside forwards might come into consideration as the best role to use. They leave space for the wingbacks to exploit, the wingbacks in return compensate with crossing from the byline. This is a good set-up. But it is not my standard/base shape to use. This would be in a typical 2-3-5 setup. You then need the DM to come further up the pitch, so you have three players balancing your team. The three central midfielders will then need to position themselves so that they can quickly close down the ball if it is lost.

There is also subtle opportunities for using all the wide attacking midfielders roles in different scenarios. If you have enough intelligent, technically giftet universalists in your playing squad, you have a wide range of opportunities.

http://i.imgur.com/vgV5w7Q.jpg[/img]"]

SC

Here I went for the Deep Lying Forward with a Support duty. Other alternatives are False Nine or Complete Forward (support duty with appropriate PPM`s). Still, for me it is all about the amount of risk I am willing to take. I know that my team is vulnerable to counter-attacks. So, I preferr that my striker plays a simple pass to the MC`s instead of losing the ball in a dribble. The only drawback is that the F9 is naturally positioned slightly lower than the DLF. This can be countered with the PPM Come Deep To Get The Ball. This will averagely lower the DLF position.

The striker is not the player mainly doing the penetrative runs behind the opposition defence, he instead is the main creative outlet for the team. He is the only player that is allowed to play risky passes. For my Liverpool Squad, Coutinho is retrained as a striker. He is scoring and assisting in this role.

If you change the shape of your team, you could also change this position to entirely different role. Sturrigde is very suitable for playing as an advanced forward. This is very similar to how I want him to perform with his role on the right wing. His PPM`s will be influenced by it. Since he is natural in both positions after retraining, this is an easy switch.

http://i.imgur.com/aPCyqU6.jpg[/img]"]

I have presented my core tactical shape. My strenghts are high possession stats, good goals per match ratio with lots of chances created. My weakness is the space left behind my defenders. This makes us vulnerable to counter-attacks. Good teams will be able to exploit this.

Getting the right players for this tactic will greatly improve it, still there is opportunities in each opponent you face. Their formation and style of play can be matched with your formation and style of play. Make som subtle changes and you will fare even better. It is all about reducing the risk as much as possible.

This tactic will work decent enough by itself. Just be patient if you want to try it. I have been down 0-2 against good opposition (Real Madrid etc), do not change anything as long as you are creating chances. When the final whistle is blown, I have ended up winning 3-2.

If someone wants to contribute with ideas on how to improve the system, they are most welcome. Still I am a little stubborn with regards to how I want to play. Possession is a must, also to push high up the pitch and close down high up the pitch is an must.

The next post I will try show/discuss how this core tactic, can be altered to two complimentary tactic to be used for different match scenarios. One will probably with the same formation, develop to an 2-3-5 attacking shape. How the roles are assigned with the game right now, this will lead to an huge increase in risk taking.

Jambo98 · January 1, 2015

Excellent OP so far.

The high block is something that very few seem to have successfully re-created this year (although in fairness, even in real football probably the most famous "high block" team are struggling to recreate it this year!). I wouldnt have initially considered LFC as a good side to create it with, since they seem at first glance to lack some of the attributes you would need for sustained success with a high block - Fascinated to read how you are overcoming it, which i suspect might be a bit where the PI come in?

You set up seems very sound and well thought out, like RTH, i would love to hear about the WTM and see some of how they shape the play. Its a role i have barely touched since it was introduced, and im sure it has great potential.

I will follow with interest

Lord Rowell · January 1, 2015

It will be interesting to see how near future FM match engines are programmed.

Ultimately, I guess PaulC and his team have to program the ME to resemble real life football.

However, this does depend on what you think real life football looks like.

Some are claiming the death of tiki-taka in favour of gegen-pressing.

The defenders of tiki-taka would argue that the teams who utilised it to maximum only declined because the players went into decline e.g. Spain 2014 - so not a fault of the system at all.

For PaulC which way does his ME bias go? This is very difficult? One way or another or a hedge-bets situation in the middle? None of any points on that spectrum will be certain truth as we're all uncertain. I don't envy the ME creators sometimes.

yonko · January 1, 2015

AML/AMR

Both players are given identical role, duty and instructions.

The sole reason why I landed on using the Wide Target Man role with Attacking duty, is that it gives me the most freedom in assigning instructions to the players. Nothing more. I have played with Inside Forwards and Ramdeuters as well. But with these roles you are forced to accept instructions enforced upon the role. Some of these instructions conflicts with how much risk I am willing to accept.

With the Wide Target Man there is just one camel to swallow. You are forced to play with wingers holding up the ball. At firste I was sceptical to this but decided to try it out. Compared to the other roles this is still my first choice. Inside Forwards have no crossing and there is too much risk involved with their dribbling. With Ramdeuters they are roaming, for my current set-up both MC`s and the striker is roaming. I am not prepared to let my wingers roam as well.

Still, if you change the shape of your tactic and decide to play with wingbacks on attacking duty, inside forwards might come into consideration as the best role to use. They leave space for the wingbacks to exploit, the wingbacks in return compensate with crossing from the byline. This is a good set-up. But it is not my standard/base shape to use. This would be in a typical 2-3-5 setup. You then need the DM to come further up the pitch, so you have three players balancing your team. The three central midfielders will then need to position themselves so that they can quickly close down the ball if it is lost.

There is also subtle opportunities for using all the wide attacking midfielders roles in different scenarios. If you have enough intelligent, technically giftet universalists in your playing squad, you have a wide range of opportunities.

http://i.imgur.com/vgV5w7Q.jpg[/img]"]/QUOTE]

Um, you say that you don't like using Raumdeuters because they instruct players to roam, which doesn't suit the way you want to play especially considering you already have roaming on for the CMs and ST. However, in your screenshot of selecting the WTM role you have selected Roam from Position as instruction. It seems contradictory......

BTW, have you tried using Winger attack role? If yes, what have you observed?

SC

http://i.imgur.com/aPCyqU6.jpg[/img]"]

Here I'm interested to know why you have opted for DLF-S this year? I remember last year your choice was the F9 role. What is the thinking behind it?

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

Multi-tasking is not my strong side. Besides writing this I am juggling family life. This post was re-written when I could not use any more images with the original post. I am a little bit tired of trying to write in good english. You are correct. I will edit the original post. It is the denial of crossing with the Ramdeuters that is the main issue. Still Ramdeuter is a good alternative.

DLF-S are instructed to run with the ball rarely. This is not something you can instruct the F9 to do, that is the main reason.

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

It will be interesting to see how near future FM match engines are programmed.
Ultimately, I guess PaulC and his team have to program the ME to resemble real life football.

However, this does depend on what you think real life football looks like.

Some are claiming the death of tiki-taka in favour of gegen-pressing.

The defenders of tiki-taka would argue that the teams who utilised it to maximum only declined because the players went into decline e.g. Spain 2014 - so not a fault of the system at all.

For PaulC which way does his ME bias go? This is very difficult? One way or another or a hedge-bets situation in the middle? None of any points on that spectrum will be certain truth as we're all uncertain. I don't envy the ME creators sometimes.

Interesting points you make. I am excited to see what this years CL will bring us. Is the cycle for Guardiola ending? Will he have to adapt. You could still play possession based football without adhering to Guardiola`s extreme principles. Still I have faith in this way to play. Gegen-pressing is actually a counter-counterattacking measurement. That is why it is so quick, the best teams counter-attack very quickly. To hinder this, your reaction must be quicker.

cmonreds · January 1, 2015

In game example

The first match I played today was at home to Arsenal in the PL. I had no first choice attacker ready for the match. Gerrard had to play in the SC position. Sinclair as the substitute for this position. The rest of my starting eleven except Sturridge are match fit and ready.

In the game the date is the 1st of December 2015. Ancelotti is currently managing Arsenal. His preferences are 4-1-2-3 DM Wide, mixed on passing, closing down as well. Arsenal lined up with an 4-1-4-1 formation for the first half.

I decided to put pressure on theme. Using the core tactic I shifted the roles within the team. Both Wingbacks were given attacking duties. Both wingers were given Inside Forward/attacking roles and duties. The defensive midfielder were given the Defensive Midfielder/support role and duty. He was also told to dribble less.

The following picture shows how the team positioned themselves during the first half. Notice the now three central midfielders, Allen is furthest to the right. Lucas besides him and Henderson besides him again. This restores the balance in the team and compensates for the wingbacks playing more advanced.

I would never play like this against formations with two strikers or one striker and a player playing in the hole. At half time we had possession at 67%. The score was still 0-0.

http://i.imgur.com/c9j4yKp.jpg[/img]"]

During the break Arsenal shifted to their preferred 4-1-2-3 formation. I reverted partially to my standard shape. Gerrard was tired. I decided to change Markovic to the striker and putting Wilson in the right winger position. I changed the wingers roles to advanced playmakers with support duty. Markovic were given the role as an advanced striker. The reasoning for this were to exploit the space between Arsenal`s fullbacks and wingers to control the game. The striker would threaten the space behind their defence. We were the better team throughout and fully deserved the victory.

http://i.imgur.com/qKhWpYv.jpg[/img]"]

http://i.imgur.com/5un8tw0.jpg[/img]"]

This is an brief example on how to adapt to matches without compromising your general style of play. You can go into more detail when doing this, by anlysing opponent players and the scouting reports. Also you can go into more detail when assigning individual instructions to your players.

I am currently playing the second match. At home to Aston Villa. They also lined up in the 4-1-4-1 formation. I decided to tighten the grip and put pressure on them. I altered the shape in exactly the same manner as the previous match. At the break we are ahead by 1-0. They change their formation to an 3-2-3-2. Three defenders, two wingbacks, three central midfielders and two strikers. I decide to change back to my standard tactic. Below are the match stats for the first half. Forgot to mention, Sturridge my striker was instructed to mark Okore (their better ballplaying defender). This due to Lambert is preferring to play direct.

http://i.imgur.com/k8vKINl.jpg[/img]"]

Below is the full time stats. Bear in mind that I am only half way through my second season with Liverpool. The only player bought is Jan Oblak as an goalkeeper. I am regularly playing with youngsters.

http://i.imgur.com/kUu32SA.jpg[/img]"][/url

The last match I played today was away against Dortmund in the CL. The last group match and since we had already qualified the first eleven was rested. They line up in a 4-4-2 formation. This suits my standard tactic fine, so no changes are made.

[url=""]

Half time:

http://i.imgur.com/FcqUn4i.png[/img]"]

Full time:

http://i.imgur.com/AaxjZQB.jpg[/img]"]

Double0Seven · January 1, 2015

Wow you just completely dominate Arsenal and Villa. A strong team and a weaker team. Villa lined up a very defensive formation and I imagine they were also playing defensively. How did you still managed to create so much chances? I cant imagine your team having a lot of space considering your very high line, Villa's formation and your pressing game.

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Wow you just completely dominate Arsenal and Villa. A strong team and a weaker team. Villa lined up a very defensive formation and I imagine they were also playing defensively. How did you still managed to create so much chances? I cant imagine your team having a lot of space considering your very high line, Villa's formation and your pressing game.

It has a lot to do with the pressing and patience. Both these opponents lined up with an 4-1-4-1. Then I alter the attacking shape of the tactic, it plays out more like an 2-3-5. This is done mainly to be able to press them early on. This gives them less time on the ball, and increase the probability of them making costly errors. Also this tactic is all about playing in congested areas with almost no space. This enables the high block. So part of the tactic is to master that.

Also the balance in the team means we have players balancing the play further down the pitch. They will lure opponents away from their penalty area when they come pressing for the ball. It is just about waiting, the opportunities will come.

yonko · January 2, 2015

Multi-tasking is not my strong side. Besides writing this I am juggling family life. This post was re-written when I could not use any more images with the original post. I am a little bit tired of trying to write in good english. You are correct. I will edit the original post. It is the denial of crossing with the Ramdeuters that is the main issue. Still Ramdeuter is a good alternative.
DLF-S are instructed to run with the ball rarely. This is not something you can instruct the F9 to do, that is the main reason.

I can relate regarding the multi-tasking and I can understand about typing while being tired. No problem, just wanted to clear things up.

Still it would be good to know if you have tried to use Winger role for the AMR/L positions. I understand that you want to limit the dribbling so the players are forced to move the ball with passing. Which nicely explains why you have opted for DLF instead of F9.

Have you tried experimenting with Be More Disciplined instruction?

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Still it would be good to know if you have tried to use Winger role for the AMR/L positions.
Have you tried experimenting with Be More Disciplined instruction?

I haven`t tried to use the Winger role. Originally it was the dribbling and crossing set to maximum that made me reluctant. But still it is an option, I am sure Sterling as an winger on the right side would be decent enough. I haven`t tried the Be More Disciplined instruction either. The team plays pretty good football and adheres to their tactical instructions satisfactorily. When the style of play is set up with the mentality, shape and instructions I am using the extra creativity is needed for the system to fully work. Therefore I am reluctant to use it as an starting instruction. I might see a purpose for it if making a version focused on just keeping possession and limiting the risks.

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

The test of strenght of the system is coming up, as the headline of this thread asked, it is almost make or break now. Upcoming match away against Chelsea in the league next. After that it is an away fixture at Old Trafford in the leauge cup. The way Chelsea play is going to play against me, has the potential to exploit the weakness of my system to the fullest. Still choosing to play this way, leads to not retreating down the pitch and lessen the space available to them. It is all about conquering them with our style of play. It is these sorts of matches that defines the strenght of your system.

I will give the information available about Chelsea and I am listening to suggestions on how you would prepare the excisting tactics for the match. I start off with the information about Chelsea.

We all know this gentlemen in charge of things at the Bridge

http://i.imgur.com/LUprViA.jpg[/img]"]

Scouting overview

http://i.imgur.com/ax240aA.jpg[/img]"]

Their preferred tactic

http://i.imgur.com/AotAYx1.jpg[/img]"]

To control the match, the area of the pitch marked in red is the most obvious to exploit. Also Chelsea will close down early on and try to interrupt our build-ups from the back. I am considering giving individual instructions to the Goalkeeper regarding how he distributes the ball. This is to try to outpass Chelsea and still be able to play out from our defence. Another option would be to try to distribute more directly to our wingers. For now I am sticking to the principles of play and are reluctant to do so. I am also tinkering with shifting the shape to a more pure 4-3-3.

http://i.imgur.com/CXpGHGW.jpg[/img]"]

Any ideas before the match?

Double0Seven · January 2, 2015

Play wider? Their wingers will not track back much, one of the two holding midfielders will be focused on attacking(Fabregas most likely) and you play with a 4-3-3. Encouraging passes out wide and dominating the game there might work. As you already said you want more passes to your wingers so I think play wider might work.

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Play wider? Their wingers will not track back much, one of the two holding midfielders will be focused on attacking(Fabregas most likely) and you play with a 4-3-3. Encouraging passes out wide and dominating the game there might work. As you already said you want more passes to your wingers so I think play wider might work.

The Play Wider instruction could compromise the High Block, since playes averagely would position themselves wider. This could open ut the passing channels/lanes for passes behind my defence. But it is an good suggestion.

I will probably change the defensive midfielder position to the Defensive Midfielder role with defend duty. Playing with the Half Back against an 4-2-3-1 might not be optimal. Changing from half back to defensive midfielder role is an small change, but an important one. My two central defenders will cope with their striker. They will get closer to him. Whilst my defensive midfielder concentrates on their attacking midfielder. The positioning of my two DC`s and DM would be more vertical, compared to the horizontal positioning when utilizing the half back role. This fits well with the vertical positioning of their AMC and SC.

Also an bi-effect of using Wide Target Men roles, are that they will be passing targets. Very seldom by long balls with the current instructions, but the ball will regularly be distributed to them. I think I will leave things unchanged, except changing the DM role. I still have numerical superiority with 5 to 4 when playing out from defence. I am a little blindfolded regarding doing the distributing of the ball differently, when playing out from the goalkeeper. Changing/tailoring his distribution and altering roles/positons could be done and still the principles of play would be kept.

Chelsea - Liverpool

I decided to use the small changes mentioned above to the standard tactic. Still I am a little troubled by how to counter their pressing with my GK distribution. But I can`t with theory come up with any clear solutions.

The first half Match Stats below, both goals from corners.

http://i.imgur.com/hTNfxaK.jpg[/img]"]

Player stats:

http://i.imgur.com/Njq2gTa.jpg[/img]"]

The succesful passing ratio from the Defence is to low, the player stats shows that it is the GK passing that is the biggest problem. During half-time I make a bad decision. I force him to play to the centre backs. The reason why I do this is because when looking at his passes at the analysis tab, it it his long passes that are going astray, the succesful one are the short ones.

This makes things even worse and at the 60th minute I cancel this. His passing stats is now even worse. The overall possession of the team is now down to 58 %. When looking back, a better solution might be to instruct him to bypass the opponents first level of pressure. Maybe the solution would be to have a player receiving his passes in the defensive midfield strata/zone.

The match ended 2-2. Stats below. Overall I am very satiesfied with the match. On Chelseas second goal our weakness were exploited. Screenshots with comments below as well.

http://i.imgur.com/qmLPUfs.jpg[/img]"]

Chelsea counter-attack

http://i.imgur.com/3BO68Sp.jpg[/img]"]

http://i.imgur.com/0PEwF7h.jpg[/img]"]

http://i.imgur.com/5aCVqXd.jpg[/img]"]

http://i.imgur.com/4avIgt6.jpg[/img]"]

Double0Seven · January 2, 2015

Play wider doesn't tell players to position them self wider. It just tells players to pass to wide players more often. But it seems like your players did a good job at Stamford bridge. Chelsea having only 2 shots on target and scoring both of them just reminds us of how efficient Chelsea is. On the other side. How did your side only score 1 goal from open play if you had 7 clear cut chances? I would be dissapointed about that considering the top class players you have.

herne79 · January 2, 2015

Play wider doesn't tell players to position them self wider. It just tells players to pass to wide players more often.

Sorry, this is incorrect.

The TI "Play Wider" instructs your players to play with more width by positioning themselves further apart. It can also help to provide better support to your wide players if you are focussing attacks down your wings, but you'd need to tell your team to do that separately (eg.,"Exploit the Flanks").

Double0Seven · January 2, 2015

Thats weird. According to this sticky thread it only instructs players to pass more to the wide men. If I'm wrong any mod please correct me.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/394479-Tricking-the-Wizard-%E2%80%93-Guide-for-Understanding-the-Tactical-Creator-Dynamics

As it also says the in game descriptions and informatiom are often misleading.

Cleon · January 2, 2015

Thats weird. According to this sticky thread it only instructs players to pass more to the wide men. If I'm wrong any mod please correct me.
http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/394479-Tricking-the-Wizard-–-Guide-for-Understanding-the-Tactical-Creator-Dynamics

As it also says the in game descriptions and informatiom are often misleading.

You misread, the thread says the same thing. This is taken from the link you just posted;

*Play Wider* Increases width. Players make more passes down the flanks.

Playing wider as always increased width and focused passing down both wings.

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

How did your side only score 1 goal from open play if you had 7 clear cut chances? I would be dissapointed about that considering the top class players you have.

If it were just down to mathematics I would be disappointed. Still, that`s football. During a whole season if the team continues to create that amount of chances it will bring success to the team. You will always encounter matches were your chances doesn`t pay of as they should have. Still, I am far from disappointed.

Now it is time to look at the next match, away against Man Utd. I have no choice than to play my second bests for this match. Just two days between matches. The two last away matches against Man Utd have been lost. They will almost for sure line up in a 4-3-1-2 Narrow formation against us.

Manchester United - Liverpool

The key to getting a result here is to play on the flanks. I have numerical superiority on the flanks. Also I have considered giving defend duty or DLP role to one of my central midfielders. Finally I decided on starting with my standard tactic. Team Instruction Exploit the flanks added, as well as the same instruction given to the GK for his distribution.

http://i.imgur.com/OCzL3LV.jpg[/img]"]

We are outplayed. The 1st half stats shows that. I am changing quite a few things now. My right MC is given DLP/Defend role and duty. My wingbacks are told to attack. Wingers changed to Inside Forwards. The distribution of both the GK and the team is reverted to normal. Sinclair was injured early on. Switched Origi to the SC position. Wilson to the left and Ødegaard to right wing pos.

http://i.imgur.com/VP2WYHG.jpg[/img]"]

A clear loss. Reverted back to the standard tactic in the 60th minute. We were down 1-5. After switching we increased possession. It was their advanced forward who scored a hat-trick against us. Still I was unable to cope with through balls passed to him from their AM. The AM assited two times this way.

http://i.imgur.com/9Ge4oBo.jpg[/img]"]

Double0Seven · January 2, 2015

You misread, the thread says the same thing. This is taken from the link you just posted;
Playing wider as always increased width and focused passing down both wings.

Ok misunderstood that.

herne79 · January 2, 2015

If someone wants to contribute with ideas on how to improve the system, they are most welcome. Still I am a little stubborn with regards to how I want to play. Possession is a must, also to push high up the pitch and close down high up the pitch is an must.

I am similar in wanting to push high up the pitch with closing down.

I have been playing a Sacchi-style 442 with AC Milan for great results - as such I use an Attacking / Fluid mentality along with Much Higher Defensive Line TI. As this mentality already defaults to use a very high line + increases closing down, you can imagine how high up the pitch I play !

To counteract the huge space behind my defenders, I (like yourself) play with the offside trap and a sweeper keeper with a defend duty. As you also point out, the right players are incredibly important, and my central defensive pairing must have excellent mental attributes in key areas such as positioning, concentration, decisions and teamwork. I also find Pace (15+) in at least one (preferably both) of my central defenders to be extremely useful.

I think the one key area where we differ is I give my central defenders a PI of Close Down Less. Without it, I find a defender can too often step out of position leaving me dangerously exposed at the back, especially against the world class teams. I know you use a PI of Close Down More, so I'd be interested in how you note your defenders positioning to be.

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

I am similar in wanting to push high up the pitch with closing down.
I have been playing a Sacchi-style 442 with AC Milan for great results - as such I use an Attacking / Fluid mentality along with Much Higher Defensive Line TI. As this mentality already defaults to use a very high line + increases closing down, you can imagine how high up the pitch I play !

To counteract the huge space behind my defenders, I (like yourself) play with the offside trap and a sweeper keeper with a defend duty. As you also point out, the right players are incredibly important, and my central defensive pairing must have excellent mental attributes in key areas such as positioning, concentration, decisions and teamwork. I also find Pace (15+) in at least one (preferably both) of my central defenders to be extremely useful.

I think the one key area where we differ is I give my central defenders a PI of Close Down Less. Without it, I find a defender can too often step out of position leaving me dangerously exposed at the back, especially against the world class teams. I know you use a PI of Close Down More, so I'd be interested in how you note your defenders positioning to be.

Sacchi-style, thats interesting :thup: I think we have tinkered around the same things about this, I agree with all of your reasoning about this. I have considered less closing down for the DC`s. IRL they fall back when that is the correct action to take. Nothing is carved in stone for me regarding this, except pushing-up and closing down high as a team Actually when playing against teams with pacey striker/s likely to threaten the space behind our defenders, this could be an PI to issue as an response to that.

Good suggestion:thup:

I had the opportunity to test out your advice. Against Newcastle the started with Siem de Jong as Striker, he has not got the pace to threaten the space behind the defence line. They started with a 4-5-1 formation so the DC`s had their normal closing down instructions. I didn`t pay attention and they swithc to 4-1-2-3 DM Wide with Cisse as striker. He scored one goal by exploiting the space behind the defence line. I switched to Close Down Less for both DC`s. It worked very nicely, still our possession percentage decreased by a few points by doing this.

Thanks for the advice, I will look more into the use of this for one/both of my DC`s when facing quick players capable of exploiting this space.

Jambo98 · January 2, 2015

I think its also very interesting how you have created something which seems to work very well, whilst using such a huge and complex set of of PI, on top of the TI - It just goes to show that there is no one approach which is "right". A lot of us have probably gravitated to "less is more" in terms of PI, but you have done the opposite and shown how, when carefully considered and seen as a holistic system, it can be made to work.

Interesting to hear if the many PI is part of your way of adapting to the fact that, with due respect, you dont have a group of world class players in the way that Pep does. He has talked lately about giving his players "less tactical instruction" and allowing them to play with "their own football DNA". I think thats a brilliant concept, but you have to be pragmatic and realise that with your group of players, they are perhaps not good enough for that. Was that part of your thinking, or something else?

Also, Pep wouldnt be happy to see his name linked to "tika-taka" nowdays it seems - Related to that, do you find that your team does a lot of the "pointless passing" with this setup, or is it focused attacking possession in the way that Pep likes his teams to operate now?

Great work in adapting to the individual games, am very much enjoying reading it all

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

I think its also very interesting how you have created something which seems to work very well, whilst using such a huge and complex set of of PI, on top of the TI - It just goes to show that there is no one approach which is "right". A lot of us have probably gravitated to "less is more" in terms of PI, but you have done the opposite and shown how, when carefully considered and seen as a holistic system, it can be made to work.
Interesting to hear if the many PI is part of your way of adapting to the fact that, with due respect, you dont have a group of world class players in the way that Pep does. He has talked lately about giving his players "less tactical instruction" and allowing them to play with "their own football DNA". I think thats a brilliant concept, but you have to be pragmatic and realise that with your group of players, they are perhaps not good enough for that. Was that part of your thinking, or something else?

Also, Pep wouldnt be happy to see his name linked to "tika-taka" nowdays it seems - Related to that, do you find that your team does a lot of the "pointless passing" with this setup, or is it focused attacking possession in the way that Pep likes his teams to operate now?

Great work in adapting to the individual games, am very much enjoying reading it all

I see nothing wrong in using the amount of instructions needed, as long as they are contributing to the overall style of play. A large sum of the individual instructions are to reduce the risk the players take when distributing the ball.

What you mean about Liverpool not having world class players? But they are good enough to play this style, atleast on FM they are. Also alot of young players wich can mould into this brand of football are coming through the ranks of the club.

There has been written alot about what Pep has been saying and not. But has he ever classified his style as tiki taka? I think he rejects what other people referr to as tiki taka. I have read that possession for just the purpose of it he has always rejected. Also I have huge doubts about an perfectionist like Guardiola letting the details go unattended.

When playing a backward pass, it is not meaningless, it is a way of distributing the ball throughout the team to be able to find a good opportunity and attack to score goals. To press high up the pitch is a way to control games, to obtain possession, possession is needed for your team to score goals. Still you must be aware of the fact that this makes your team vulnerable to counter attacks. So to play this way and score goals you have to accept that passes backwards will occur, this is done to reduce the risk, so when playing this style you won`t be hammered all the time.

Also, thanks for the positive feedback. To you all who has posted here and I haven`t been able to answer to.

The last match played, the one after the Man Utd game, the match stats screen, answers your question about pointless passing

http://i.imgur.com/xcmnAGW.jpg[/img]"]

Jambo98 · January 2, 2015

I see nothing wrong in using the amount of instructions needed, as long as they are contributing to the overall style of play. A large sum of the individual instructions are to reduce the risk the players take when distributing the ball.
What you mean about Liverpool not having world class players? But they are good enough to play this style, atleast on FM they are. Also alot of young players wich can mould into this brand of football are coming through the ranks of the club.

There has been written alot about what Pep has been saying and not. But has he ever classified his style as tiki taka? I think he rejects what other people referr to as tiki taka. I have read that possession for just the purpose of it he has always rejected. Also I have huge doubts about an perfectionist like Guardiola letting the details go unattended.

When playing a backward pass, it is not meaningless, it is a way of distributing the ball throughout the team to be able to find a good opportunity and attack to score goals. To press high up the pitch is a way to control games, to obtain possession, possession is needed for your team to score goals. Still you must be aware of the fact that this makes your team vulnerable to counter attacks. So to play this way and score goals you have to accept that passes backwards will occur, this is done to not be hammered play this way.

The last match played, the one after the Man Utd game, the match stats screen, answers your question about pointless passing

http://i.imgur.com/xcmnAGW.jpg[/img]"]

Well, your right, Pep might not class his football as Tiki taka........but your thread title then opening paragraph sort of do

Liverpool have some great players, but general consensus would be that to implement an ultra high block, you need players with great team work, work rate, stamina and concentration. I am not certain that many of that squad are truley "elite" in those terms? I dont have the squad open in front, and you will know better whether thats the cause of any of your defensive issues?

I think its not about whether a backwards pass is meaningless, every coach would accept that they are necessary. Its when it becomes a serious of "pointless" passes. Most of which are likely sideways rather than either backwards of forwards. Looking at your various match stats, i think you probably dont suffer from this. Your average passes look to be around 600-650? IIRC the real life spain/barca who probably risked taking tika-taka too far, were around 750 at times. Looks like you have a good balance.

That said, as you say yourself, you do have an issue to address defensively? You dont want to sacrafice your high press or your high line, and you dont want to change your core formation/strategy (understandably). What are you now thinking in terms of how you will deal with that? Even in that Newcastle game, you concede 2 goals and one woodwork effort.

Really looking forward to how you develop it - You really have somethign working that is quite hard to achieve and seeing it evolve is great reading

herne79 · January 2, 2015

I had the opportunity to test out your advice. Against Newcastle the started with Siem de Jong as Striker, he has not got the pace to threaten the space behind the defence line. They started with a 4-5-1 formation so the DC`s had their normal closing down instructions. I didn`t pay attention and they swithc to 4-1-2-3 DM Wide with Cisse as striker. He scored one goal by exploiting the space behind the defence line. I switched to Close Down Less for both DC`s. It worked very nicely, still our possession percentage decreased by a few points by doing this.

Thanks for the advice, I will look more into the use of this for one/both of my DC`s when facing quick players capable of exploiting this space.

Good stuff .

Personally I find my DCs stepping up usually when faced by someone very good in the AMC space. However as you use someone at DMC (I don't), hopefully you won't see too much of this.

Interesting how possession decreased a little, not something I would have anticipated.

Dr. Hook · January 2, 2015

Nice thread. I wish I had the graphic talent to do the line and circles and arrows from a match shot. It can't be that hard, surely? Anyway, very well done and nicely illustrated!

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Nice thread. I wish I had the graphic talent to do the line and circles and arrows from a match shot. It can't be that hard, surely? Anyway, very well done and nicely illustrated!

Thanks. Well if I can do it with a computer, most people can

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Good stuff .
Personally I find my DCs stepping up usually when faced by someone very good in the AMC space. However as you use someone at DMC (I don't), hopefully you won't see too much of this.

Interesting how possession decreased a little, not something I would have anticipated.

It might be coincidental, need a broader amount of data to draw conclusion on the decreasing possession though. But decreased by 3 percent in about 30 minutes. Will monitor it further...

cmonreds · January 2, 2015

Well, your right, Pep might not class his football as Tiki taka........but your thread title then opening paragraph sort of do
Liverpool have some great players, but general consensus would be that to implement an ultra high block, you need players with great team work, work rate, stamina and concentration. I am not certain that many of that squad are truley "elite" in those terms? I dont have the squad open in front, and you will know better whether thats the cause of any of your defensive issues?

I think its not about whether a backwards pass is meaningless, every coach would accept that they are necessary. Its when it becomes a serious of "pointless" passes. Most of which are likely sideways rather than either backwards of forwards. Looking at your various match stats, i think you probably dont suffer from this. Your average passes look to be around 600-650? IIRC the real life spain/barca who probably risked taking tika-taka too far, were around 750 at times. Looks like you have a good balance.

That said, as you say yourself, you do have an issue to address defensively? You dont want to sacrafice your high press or your high line, and you dont want to change your core formation/strategy (understandably). What are you now thinking in terms of how you will deal with that? Even in that Newcastle game, you concede 2 goals and one woodwork effort.

Really looking forward to how you develop it - You really have somethign working that is quite hard to achieve and seeing it evolve is great reading

The term tiki taka is a little diffuse, we all have our own understanding of it. That I think was the reason for Pep`s statement about it. My subjective understanding of it is linked up to Guardiola style of football. The term is broader than that in how it is used by me in this thread.

You could be right about the defensive issues regarding the ability of players. During the testing of the tactic Barcelona was used as well, much better defensive results when playing with Barcelona. Still there is room for tactical improvement with the current players in the Liverpool squad.

I have had above 800 passes for the team in matches. I haven`t calculated the average passes so don`t really know it. But very often we have passing numbers high above the 700 mark.

About sacrificing the high d-line and press, you are correct, that would be revolution. I am seeking evolution of the system. Evolution could be in regards of formation used, how to play more to the strenghts within the existing formation and/or how to weaken the opponents further.

I am hoping for members of the forum also coming up with ideas. Abundance of members in here who knows their football and how to transfer it to FM. I have the 2-3-5 shape as an alternative tactic against 4-5-1 and 4-1-4-1 formations. The thoughts behind this are already covered in the thread. Against Newcastle this was used, only exception was that I stuck to the Wide Target Men. Besides that I am starting to tinker about an formation to use against opponents pressing with numbers early on.

Thanks for the positive feedback :thup:

Jambo98 · January 2, 2015

The term tiki taka is a little diffuse, we all have our own understanding of it. That I think was the reason for Pep`s statement about it. My subjective understanding of it is linked up to Guardiola style of football. The term is broader than that in how it is used by me in this thread.
You could be right about the defensive issues regarding the ability of players. During the testing of the tactic Barcelona was used as well, much better defensive results when playing with Barcelona. Still there is room for tactical improvement with the current players in the Liverpool squad.

I have had above 800 passes for the team in matches. I haven`t calculated the average passes so don`t really know it. But very often we have passing numbers high above the 700 mark.

About sacrificing the high d-line and press, you are correct, that would be revolution. I am seeking evolution of the system. Evolution could be in regards of formation used, how to play more to the strenghts within the existing formation and/or how to weaken the opponents further.

I am hoping for members of the forum also coming up with ideas. Abundance of members in here who knows their football and how to transfer it to FM. I have the 2-3-5 shape as an alternative tactic against 4-5-1 and 4-1-4-1 formations. The thoughts behind this are already covered in the thread. Against Newcastle this was used, only exception was that I stuck to the Wide Target Men. Besides that I am starting to tinker about an formation to use against opponents pressing with numbers early on.

Thanks for the positive feedback

Yes, sorry when i was talking about d-line/press i was not suggesting you should change those, just pointing out that keeping those intact gives you quite limited options tactically to evolve your tactic. That is not to say, of course, that you cant achieve it, but it does seem to point more to personnel (in terms of suitability, if not pure quality). You are already doing all you can to cut off the supply in behind/over the top/counter in terms of tactics. The only possibility i can think of is to specifically target key deep lying playmakers in the opposition.

Formation wise, the obvious one for me is to move the wingbacks to fullbacks to give a slightly more solid defensive shape. With the right role/duty and PPMs you can still achieve the attacking/pressing you need from them?

yonko · January 3, 2015

Cmonreds, I applaud your efforts.

IMO, Guardiola has his core principles (as every top manager), but he doesn't use the same exact instructions every game and against every opponent. Before with Barca and now with Bayern he makes subtle changes from game to game. For example, his teams don't always play with the highest D-line possible or the faster/slowest tempo. His teams don't play the same vs Getafe as they do vs Man United or vs Freiburg as they do vs Real Madrid.

From what you have posted, I understand that you want and have selected roles that give you the most opportunity to adjust the level or risk vs reward plays, such as dribbling, passing, crossing and movement. You like symmetry and balance. Unfortunately in this year's FM there are less roles with less opportunity to make individual instructions compared to last year's.

Also, I would like to ask you about the repetitive instructions between Team and Player's, such as closing down and passing. What do you think this achieves? Do you think that using Shorter Passing as TI and then individual Pass it Shorter for all players adds anything to the tactic? I think the consensus from last year's FM is that it doesn't, unless things have changed this year. Same goes for using Close Down Much More as TI and then individually using the same instruction for each player or using just Close Down More for only a few players.

RTHerringbone · January 3, 2015

yonko - The relationship between TIs and PIs is different this year. There is now a combined impact based on Role / Duty, TIs and PIs. It isn't a compounded, incremental impact, but it does have additional impact.

cmonreds · January 3, 2015

Yes, sorry when i was talking about d-line/press i was not suggesting you should change those, just pointing out that keeping those intact gives you quite limited options tactically to evolve your tactic. That is not to say, of course, that you cant achieve it, but it does seem to point more to personnel (in terms of suitability, if not pure quality). You are already doing all you can to cut off the supply in behind/over the top/counter in terms of tactics. The only possibility i can think of is to specifically target key deep lying playmakers in the opposition.
Formation wise, the obvious one for me is to move the wingbacks to fullbacks to give a slightly more solid defensive shape. With the right role/duty and PPMs you can still achieve the attacking/pressing you need from them?

No need to be sorry. I agree with your reasoning, weakening the opposition by taking out their ability to play into the space we leave behind, is the most obvious way to go right now. In regards of formation, I will try things out today. A lot of thoughts around it, want the positions to be quite similiar as the base tactic to prevent having to retraining a lot of players into new positions. The additional formation`s main purpose is to be used against teams pressing in numbers high up the pitch.

For starters I don`t want to change too much regarding style of play, what finally comes out of it I don`t know yet.

cmonreds · January 3, 2015

Cmonreds, I applaud your efforts.
IMO, Guardiola has his core principles (as every top manager), but he doesn't use the same exact instructions every game and against every opponent. Before with Barca and now with Bayern he makes subtle changes from game to game. For example, his teams don't always play with the highest D-line possible or the faster/slowest tempo. His teams don't play the same vs Getafe as they do vs Man United or vs Freiburg as they do vs Real Madrid.

From what you have posted, I understand that you want and have selected roles that give you the most opportunity to adjust the level or risk vs reward plays, such as dribbling, passing, crossing and movement. You like symmetry and balance. Unfortunately in this year's FM there are less roles with less opportunity to make individual instructions compared to last year's.

Also, I would like to ask you about the repetitive instructions between Team and Player's, such as closing down and passing. What do you think this achieves? Do you think that using Shorter Passing as TI and then individual Pass it Shorter for all players adds anything to the tactic? I think the consensus from last year's FM is that it doesn't, unless things have changed this year. Same goes for using Close Down Much More as TI and then individually using the same instruction for each player or using just Close Down More for only a few players.

Thank you Yonko, also, you are right. Analysis is a huge part of Guardiola`s football. He has his overall principles, but change shape/makes variatons to counter and exploit the opponents, based on their strengths and weaknesses. This is a big part of his success. This is the way I want to go aswell. If you want to play this way on FM and wants to be succesful, you will have to come up with a way or system on how to reducing the risks. Risk of loosing the ball and the risk of beeing counter-attacked. One thing is dominating Villa at home in the PL playing this way, playing the biggest teams away in the last rounds of the CL is something entirely different. To be able to get consistent results and not beeing hammered because your weakness is exploited.

I agree with the roles. They are descriptive for existing roles within football today, it is good to have this in the game. Still as an manager you should be able to define your own roles and style of play. If it is ME issues causing this, I don`t know. If it is technical possible to give us this freedom to create, I would want it.

My thinking behind TI and PI, is that it further enhance the style of play. For exemple I want to be able to close down extremely high up the pitch, my understanding is that attacking mentality automatically closes down higher up the pitch than control. I don`t want the added risk of this mentality, so I settle for Control mentality. The TI and PI is a way to increase the closing down higher up the pitch. To acchieve nearly the same closing down as with attacking mentality, without the added risk of that mentality.

My limited experience is that giving PI adds to the same TI when done this way. The team as a whole closes down in numbers and limiting the opponents better, when the PI also has been assigned to this. This is my impression.

cmonreds · January 3, 2015

yonko - The relationship between TIs and PIs is different this year. There is now a combined impact based on Role / Duty, TIs and PIs. It isn't a compounded, incremental impact, but it does have additional impact.

This is also my impression, it is possible to tweak a little extra when this is the cause. Nice to have it confirmed. Since the instructions are the most important tool for creating tactics, the effects of them must be known.

cmonreds · January 3, 2015

I am working/theorizing about an alternative formation, to use against 4-3-1-2 and others formations with many players positioned in the central attacker and attacking mifielder strata. One alternative formation could be a little different 3-4-3 formation as below. The roles assigned are just for starting off, I don`t know if this is working yet. You remove both wingbacks, and add one central defender and one central midfielder. These are positions I always have as substitutes as well.

Here you create three vertical diamonds. Two key players present in two of the diamonds. The DM and the MC(A) position. The main advantage with this current setup, is the possibility to utilize the MC in the centre as an/a InsideWinger/Runner/player to make runs into the space behind the opposition defence.

Also you could change to letting the MC(A) position change instructions to be an creative player. Giving the SC the role as an Advanced Forward would make him push up and leave more space to the MC(A) position to be creative.

I am not sure if there are enough players contributing in the early build-up phase though.

http://i.imgur.com/UfNwZWj.jpg[/img]"]

This is slight alteration to the above shape. Here the DCL/DCR are moved wider to the fullback position. The thought is to make them act like a combination of central defenders and fullbacks, with most bias towards the central defender role. The support duty might have to be removed in this case. The PI to sit narrower will be utilized.

Implications for using this alternative is that central defenders will have to retrain position to DL or DR. This is okay, since most players will be natural in the DC position. So retraining for a second position is within limits. Also wingbacks with good defensive attributes could be used in the wide roles in the defensive line. Most will be natural DL/DR anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/ZxoUmUI.jpg[/img]"]

This gives you an overview of how I am thinking about solving the issue with 4-3-1-2 etc formations closing down early. I have two other formations based on/similiar to these ones that I consider as well. I will post pictures later. One is simply like these ones, but the MC(A) is moved down as an defensive midfielder to gain numbers at the back. The last one involves the Sweeper Keeper as part of the first vertical diamond. Not sure if I am able to pull that one through tough.

JimmyGuitarist · January 3, 2015

Pep uses the term Tiki-Taka in the way it was originally used - as an insult. It's the U shape passing which he hates - for example; from CB to CB to fullback to winger & back to fullback, back to CB to CB to other fullback to winger etc. He wants CB's to be as aggressive as possible with there passes into the middle. The possession needs to be kept in a specific way rather than keeping possession just for the sakes of achieving a ridiculously high stat. It's just a tool to the many things which create his style of play.

To quote exactly what Pep says about tiki-taka: "Gentleman, this is tiquitaca and it is ****. We're not interested in this type of possession. It's totally meaningless. It's about passing for the sake of it. We need our central midfielder and our defenders to move out with an offensive mentality and break and opposition lines in order to push the whole team high up. The U needs to go."

cmonreds · January 3, 2015

Pep uses the term Tiki-Taka in the way it was originally used - as an insult. It's the U shape passing which he hates - for example; from CB to CB to fullback to winger & back to fullback, back to CB to CB to other fullback to winger etc. He wants CB's to be as aggressive as possible with there passes into the middle. The possession needs to be kept in a specific way rather than keeping possession just for the sakes of achieving a ridiculously high stat. It's just a tool to the many things which create his style of play.
To quote exactly what Pep says about tiki-taka: "Gentleman, this is tiquitaca and it is ****. We're not interested in this type of possession. It's totally meaningless. It's about passing for the sake of it. We need our central midfielder and our defenders to move out with an offensive mentality and break and opposition lines in order to push the whole team high up. The U needs to go."

Ok, let us not let this develop into a linguistic debate about the meaning of the term. That was not the intention of the thread. Still here is an explanation for why I use the term. Most books I have read about Guardiola and the spanish possession based style, referrs to it as tiki taka. It is simply a term that a lot of people have an fairly accurate perceptions about what it holds. Still no exact definition excists about it. But most people would agree to that with the term they percept a lot of short passes, high possession stats, high collective pressure and very often teams sitting high. All of this also describes how Guardiola`s teams are playing. Watch Bayern play this year, all of this is still characteristic of how they play their football.

Also it is a principle in general in possession based football, that you should always opt for a pass forward when possible. This enables pushing the team forward and move closer to the opponent goal. All what you write is correct in this matter. Guardiola`s teams acchieve a lot of possession, still playing "tiki taka" in a right way. The spanish national team didn`t always do the same.

Still, playing in this way trying to create chances and demolish (quote Guardiola) your opponents, and acchieving ridiculous amount of possession, just means that you are real good at it. When possession stats reach very high, the opponents have most likely retreated and parked the bus.

Most teams would still try to counter-attack. Why give them this chance? So you continue to pass the ball and look for opportunities..

Steviedaniels · January 3, 2015

I think it is going to be Evolution rather than Revolution going back to your opening post.

Pep wants to dominate and attack attack attack.

While it has been highlighted about what he said about tika taka I think the only real difference is that he wishes to build slowly initially so that players are positioned correctly and then attack very quickly (likely meaning shorter passing for defenders and more direct for attackers in the FM sense). The tempo change and directness should come explosively to open up the opposition defence and fashion a chance rather than the patient approach that I believe characterizes tika taka.

The interchangable nature of his teams also suggest that Very Fluid is the correct philosophy while adding 'Roam from Positions' might also create excellent movement from players or at least adding this to the more attacking players to make them difficult to mark.

Jambo98 · January 3, 2015

I think it is going to be Evolution rather than Revolution going back to your opening post.
Pep wants to dominate and attack attack attack.

While it has been highlighted about what he said about tika taka I think the only real difference is that he wishes to build slowly initially so that players are positioned correctly and then attack very quickly (likely meaning shorter passing for defenders and more direct for attackers in the FM sense). The tempo change and directness should come explosively to open up the opposition defence and fashion a chance rather than the patient approach that I believe characterizes tika taka.

The interchangable nature of his teams also suggest that Very Fluid is the correct philosophy while adding 'Roam from Positions' might also create excellent movement from players or at least adding this to the more attacking players to make them difficult to mark.

I think the tempo change is one of the 2 parts of Pep's system (whether we call it Tiki-Taka or something else is, as cmonreds points out, largely irrelevant) which is exceptionally hard to recreate. Not only does he want almost "split tempo", where his team builds up slowly, then BANG, deadly fast finish to the move, but he see's this tempo split as being horizontal, not vertical. Pep talks about wanting to build slowly down the flanks, then reach the centre of the pitch and ups the tempo massively. It can work either vertically or horizontally in the Bayern system.

The other part i am not sure how you can properly recreate, and i suspect a big part of the reason for the counter-attack weakness in your system, is the 4 second press. This intense press followed by dropping off/passing on, is what makes it so effective, and i have never been able to make this work in FM, since pressing is very much "all or nothing" - Do you think perhaps overpressing is where you are falling down slightly?

MarcusCarl · January 4, 2015

Hi, first of all credit to for a very interesting article and a bunch of great ideas. I've tried the tactic that you've posted with my Bechem-side and succeded with 73% possession against Anderlecht (i'm newly promoted to fisrt division) and i saw a lot of beatuiful passing even though it was a loss with 1-2, but I believe thats just a question of quality difference.

Have you ever considered playing with a lower mentality or maybe its impossible to retain the high pressing, but maybe you can reduce the risk a little bit on the way forward to the opponents third?

Cam8 · January 4, 2015

Hi, first of all credit to for a very interesting article and a bunch of great ideas. I've tried the tactic that you've posted with my Bechem-side and succeded with 73% possession against Anderlecht (i'm newly promoted to fisrt division) and i saw a lot of beatuiful passing even though it was a loss with 1-2, but I believe thats just a question of quality difference.
Have you ever considered playing with a lower mentality or maybe its impossible to retain the high pressing, but maybe you can reduce the risk a little bit on the way forward to the opponents third?

Inspired by this article I have actually tried something similar. I play with similar tactics, in terms of the high block, pressing and low risk PIs, but I use the counter mentality instead of control. I've tried and compared both mentalities but I've stuck with counter, as the pressing isn't quite as extreme on control and also it seems to enable slow build up play from defence, which I think is crucial aspect of Guardiola's play.

JimmyGuitarist · January 4, 2015

Ok, let us not let this develop into a linguistic debate about the meaning of the term. That was not the intention of the thread. Still here is an explanation for why I use the term. Most books I have read about Guardiola and the spanish possession based style, referrs to it as tiki taka. It is simply a term that a lot of people have an fairly accurate perceptions about what it holds. Still no exact definition excists about it. But most people would agree to that with the term they percept a lot of short passes, high possession stats, high collective pressure and very often teams sitting high. All of this also describes how Guardiola`s teams are playing. Watch Bayern play this year, all of this is still characteristic of how they play their football.
Also it is a principle in general in possession based football, that you should always opt for a pass forward when possible. This enables pushing the team forward and move closer to the opponent goal. All what you write is correct in this matter. Guardiola`s teams acchieve a lot of possession, still playing "tiki taka" in a right way. The spanish national team didn`t always do the same.

Still, playing in this way trying to create chances and demolish (quote Guardiola) your opponents, and acchieving ridiculous amount of possession, just means that you are real good at it. When possession stats reach very high, the opponents have most likely retreated and parked the bus.

Most teams would still try to counter-attack. Why give them this chance? So you continue to pass the ball and look for opportunities..

Yeah, I wasn't responding to the point of this topic there. I was just scrolling through and saw a few replies concerning the term "tiki taka", so I thought I'd show off and clarify exactly what Pep said regarding the term.

MarcusCarl · January 4, 2015

Inspired by this article I have actually tried something similar. I play with similar tactics, in terms of the high block, pressing and low risk PIs, but I use the counter mentality instead of control. I've tried and compared both mentalities but I've stuck with counter, as the pressing isn't quite as extreme on control and also it seems to enable slow build up play from defence, which I think is crucial aspect of Guardiola's play.

I totally agree with the build-up from the back. I also find safer and more presice in my opinion. Though i find the pressing comes a little bit short when playing against an opponent who also builds up from the back, but it can also depend on my lacking in top quality in my squad.

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Tiki Taka - At a waypoint. Evolution or revolution ahead?

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