Tiki Taka - At a waypoint. Evolution or revolution ahead?

[Fritz13]

You mentioned that player attributes are key to this tactic and that the space behind the defence is susceptible to attack over the top or from out wide possibly.

I'm wondering in that case if pace is preferable to tackling or heading for example.

Tempted to go for a CB with passing, tackling and heading of say 14 but pace of 17 or above

..... Thoughts

[cmonreds]

You mentioned that player attributes are key to this tactic and that the space behind the defence is susceptible to attack over the top or from out wide possibly.

I'm wondering in that case if pace is preferable to tackling or heading for example.

Tempted to go for a CB with passing, tackling and heading of say 14 but pace of 17 or above

..... Thoughts

Priorities

1.I start with looking for central defenders with decent technique and passing, this is a must. Atleast 12 for first touch, technique and passing. At around 14 I am happy.

2. Good mental stats. Calm, reliable players that are good at reading the game and also able to make the offside trap work. As well as the typical central defender stats.

3. Pace and acceleration at atleast 12-13. When this low their ability to read the game must be better. The higher the better. But I would choose a player with 13-14 for speed and better in the two above mentioned areas, than a player with 17 for speed and lower attributes in those areas.

Your central defenders will have around 70-80 passes per match. They must fullfill this role as well. Think risk, faults in distributing the ball will lead to counter-attacks. But Pace is an huge bonus.

[Fritz13]

Just did a search on all players with the following stats

Passing 13

Technique 13

First touch 13

Composure 13

Concentration 13

Decisions 13

Pace 13

Acceleration 13

So no heading or tacking

3 players found

Thiago Silva ... No surprises there

The other 2 were a bit more interesting

Henrique of Napoli and Marc Muniesa - both Ex Barca

Just goes to show as those 2 wouldn't have been the obvious choices would they!

[yonko]

Ok, cmonreds......

Great work once again. I finally had a chance to play around a little bit and experiment with a few things. Here is what I've settled on for now:

Formation & Roles:

Team Instructions:

A few comments, observations and recommendations from me, for what it's worth....

1) I've found that I like the Raumdeuter role very much, in fact I love it and it's quickly becoming my favorite role in FM. It opens things up so much and the movement up front, not only with the 3 attackers but also with the two central midfielders, is absolutely lovely to watch (well it might have something to do with the players I'm using TBH). The role still allows for customization of the dribbling instruction - dribble more or dribble less both are selectable. I personally leave it as is and don't select either, but if one prefers more passing game then "dribble less" is working wonders.

2) I prefer to have split roles in midfield as default - one on attack duty, the other on support. Then as needed during the game I can adjust to have either both on support or both on attack. When I really want to go after my opponent offensively, I set both CMs on attack and the DM on support.

3) I've chosen Standard as my base Mentality because it gives me better balance and more patient approach against my opponents as most teams play very defensive when facing me as Barcelona (I guess that would be different with a team like Liverpool, at least initially in the first couple of seasons). It also allows me to adjust to either Control or Counter as needed without too much penalty in Tactics Familiarity.

4) I've set Match Preparation to always be on Attacking Movement (yes, even against Real Madrid and others of similar class). That's because I've found that with tactics and instructions geared towards possession and patience it's important to give the team that killer attacking edge in terms of movement and finishing.

5) Big important note regarding D-line. It's very important to observe the opponent during matches because even against Barca teams have their moments when they try to sneak in that ball over the top once in a while. Because of my sloppiness/stubbornness I've lost some points by drawing matches instead of winning them. Interestingly, it has always happened in away matches - against Valencia, Granada and Eibar in La Liga and against Ajax in the CL. Away against Real Madrid I made a different mistake - I made my team too deep by going Counter and dropping the D-line to "just" Push Up. In all of these games I ignored a telling sign of things to come.....the sign is that you dominate, create a lot of chance to score, your team scores once, but then misses all the rest (and I'm talking shocking misses here, you know the type....). Then, out of the blue, out of nowhere....boom, ball over the top, one of the center backs looks perfectly positioned to deal with it but he doesn't and there it goes.....just one moment of losing concentration....

6) Possession. I'm usually between 60%-65% with some odd times close to 70%, with 85%-90% pass completion usually. However, I rarely have any player (particularly either of the CMs) with more than 70-80 passes in a game. I don't know why.......I would like to increase the number of passes for my CMs. I'm wondering if removing the Roaming my achieve that....but the movement with it so good that I'm reluctant to try it. Cmonreds, any suggestions/advice?

7) Using "Look for Overlap" (typically I've been against it in the past) helps in two ways. First, it brings in the two Raumdeuters more into the game and closer to their teammates rather than having them isolated. Second, it pushes the Wingbacks further up without having to use Attack duty or other roles that involve more dribbling/crossing.

8) In terms of attributes, I'd say that the mentals > technicals > physicals. As for Centerbacks, I would look for the following:

- anticipation, composure, concentration, decisions, positioning and teamwork at 14-15+

- first touch, marking, tackling, passing and technique at 12-13+

- acceleration 10+ and pace 13+

9) Training and Pre-season. It is extremely important to start the season/save with very high Team Cohesion at 50% and Match Prep set for Tactics Only until both reach their maximum as soon as possible. Also, it's important to set up as many friendlies as possible every 3 days during preseason and to rotate the players so they are all match fit by the start of the first game. After that I set the general training at Balanced and at 20%, then I set the individual training for each player. I use role training based on what attributes the role targets and not necessarily correspondent to the role in the tactic used. Example: I train the players I use as Raumdeuters as Inside Forwards (support).

10) The DM position. I find myself often using the role of DM-D or DM-S rather than HB-D. That's because most teams in La Liga play with single striker and one AMC behind him. However, on a few occasion that I do get to use a HB, I drop the D-Line to "just" Push Higher Up, because selecting the HB role pushes the D-Line further anyway and it's just asking for more trouble with balls over the top if I play HB in combination with Much Higher D-Line.

That's it from me for now. I may add more later.

[Jambo98]

Interesting set up Yonko.

out of interest, does the Raudemeter allow you to customise "width"?

Having one on "sit narrower" then one on "stay wider", then having the wingbacks on those sides have the reverse instruction could create even more passing options and variety in the last third of the pitch.

[cmonreds]

Just did a search on all players with the following stats

Passing 13

Technique 13

First touch 13

Composure 13

Concentration 13

Decisions 13

Pace 13

Acceleration 13

So no heading or tacking

3 players found

Thiago Silva ... No surprises there

The other 2 were a bit more interesting

Henrique of Napoli and Marc Muniesa - both Ex Barca

Just goes to show as those 2 wouldn't have been the obvious choices would they!

They would fit the bill

[cmonreds]

1 and 7 : I agree with the Ramdeuter role, it has the movement/positoning I look for. Also you can tweak the amount of risk you take, as well as tweaking the role to the player. The only Drawback is the no-crossing instruction. Still as an consequence you will need more advanced wing/fullbacks to deliver from the flanks. I don`t encourage a lot of crossing but the option to do so when appropriate should exsist. It seems like you solved this in a very sophisticated way, this I must try out. It is a brilliant piece of thought. If I could get the wingbacks more advanced without the enforced dribbling and crossing to often, it would solve these issues when shifting shape to a 2-3-5

2: I agree with your reasoning here. It is a matter of how risky you want to be. But the split roles have been considered. I like that you see different possibilites within different scenarios and solve it with the excisting formation. This versatility is very good.

6 Here I sometimes get insane passing stats. They see a lot of the ball. There is the odd match where their passes drop under 100 (as low as 70 I have seen). Is it a difference between them in the amount of passes? Both my MC`s are balancing players. They should be available as an passing option most of the time. It means that often the ball comes back to them from advanced positions. They are in the centre of the balldistribution.

The two major reasons could be: the PI/PPM of their teammates/as well as the MC`s. A lot of dribbling, long shots, try through ball etc will lower the amount of passes. What are the total passes made by your team. Does this reflect the amount of passes of your MC`s? Also you say you seldom play with half-back, this combined with an attacking role in the central midfield changes you overall shape a little compared to mine. Mine is set up so that passes can circulate in the diamond or triangle. Also you have three players with attacking duty to threaten their defence, whilst I have two. Your team will be moe biased towards passing forward. It might be a bad explanation but all of this would reduce the overall passing stats.

Great post for the thread Yonko. Nice to see your take on the tactic.

[cmonreds]

Interesting set up Yonko.

out of interest, does the Raudemeter allow you to customise "width"?

Having one on "sit narrower" then one on "stay wider", then having the wingbacks on those sides have the reverse instruction could create even more passing options and variety in the last third of the pitch.

Sadly not, they are by default instructed to sit narrower. This can`t be changed.

[yonko]

Interesting set up Yonko.

out of interest, does the Raudemeter allow you to customise "width"?

Having one on "sit narrower" then one on "stay wider", then having the wingbacks on those sides have the reverse instruction could create even more passing options and variety in the last third of the pitch.

Sadly not, they are by default instructed to sit narrower. This can`t be changed.

That's correct. No width adjustment with the role of Raumdeuter. But IMO it isn't needed, plus with WTM-A role the instruction is to "sit narrower" anyway. The role gives me everything I want from that position and it even does some defensive work. The RMD is all over the place - unpredictable for the opponents, yet accessible for his teammates. It can found out wide or more centrally, cutting infield (without the ball) ahead of the DLF, sneaking in behind the defense or hanging in front of them for that possession-keeping pass to feet. It literally is my new favorite role - SI has it tuned perfectly at the moment IMO.

[cmonreds]

I agree with you, it is a good role, perfected as it is now Still, the option to tweak is always welcome and shouldn`t be hindered..

[Jambo98]

Yes nothing particularly wrong with it. Just a key Guardiola principle is width differentiation between the wingbacks and the wingers. If one is narrow, the other must be wide, and vice versa. Not always that easy to recreate but if/when you can you can see exactly why it works

[yonko]

1 and 7 : I agree with the Ramdeuter role, it has the movement/positoning I look for. Also you can tweak the amount of risk you take, as well as tweaking the role to the player. The only Drawback is the no-crossing instruction. Still as an consequence you will need more advanced wing/fullbacks to deliver from the flanks. I don`t encourage a lot of crossing but the option to do so when appropriate should exsist. It seems like you solved this in a very sophisticated way, this I must try out. It is a brilliant piece of thought. If I could get the wingbacks more advanced without the enforced dribbling and crossing to often, it would solve these issues when shifting shape to a 2-3-5

2: I agree with your reasoning here. It is a matter of how risky you want to be. But the split roles have been considered. I like that you see different possibilites within different scenarios and solve it with the excisting formation. This versatility is very good.

6 Here I sometimes get insane passing stats. They see a lot of the ball. There is the odd match where their passes drop under 100 (as low as 70 I have seen). Is it a difference between them in the amount of passes? Both my MC`s are balancing players. They should be available as an passing option most of the time. It means that often the ball comes back to them from advanced positions. They are in the centre of the balldistribution.

The two major reasons could be: the PI/PPM of their teammates/as well as the MC`s. A lot of dribbling, long shots, try through ball etc will lower the amount of passes. What are the total passes made by your team. Does this reflect the amount of passes of your MC`s? Also you say you seldom play with half-back, this combined with an attacking role in the central midfield changes you overall shape a little compared to mine. Mine is set up so that passes can circulate in the diamond or triangle. Also you have three players with attacking duty to threaten their defence, whilst I have two. Your team will be moe biased towards passing forward. It might be a bad explanation but all of this would reduce the overall passing stats.

Great post for the thread Yonko. Nice to see your take on the tactic.

I personally do not need the RMDs to cross the ball. I much prefer them to pass the ball, which they do with this role. And pushing the WBs further up via "Look for Overlap" without the dribbling and crossing instructions actually encourages/creates more passing opportunities, aka "triangles". This leads to the ball being passed into the box from wide areas rather than delivered via crosses. Of course there is the odd cross ball here and there.

Regarding point #2. I always look for variations to the tactic as I'd like to keep the AI (opponents) on their toes and throw something different every once in awhile.....just like Pep Guardiola does IRL.

Regarding the CMs and the number of passes. My CMs have the same PIs as yours - shoot less, dribble less, pass it shorter, cross less, roam and close down much more. As for PPMs, you can see the players I use - Xavi/Rakitic usually as CM-support, Iniesta/Rafinha usually as CM-attack. And FYI, if I use a HB role I do not use both CMs on attack duty. I only use both on attack with a DM on support.

Interesting notes and things I've observed: CM-attack usually makes more passes and has higher completion rate than the CM-support (weird!). Even more odd, CM-support has scored more goals than CM-attack - Xavi and Rakitic have 12 goals between them (Xavi has 3 from PKs, if I remember correctly), while Iniesta and Rafinha have only less than 5, with Iniesta not scoring at all. Yet more interestingly, the CM-attack has made slightly more assists than the CM-support. Xavi followed by Rakitic are my corner takers, while Iniesta/Rafinha are set up to lurk outside the penalty box.

As I'm typing, I'm starting to think that it must be some other factors that influence their low (for my liking) passing numbers - like PIs for the players around them. All my other players have the same PIs as yours.....except the RMDs and DLF. I suspect that it's because for those 3 I've de-selected "dribble less" which allows them more risk taking, which in turn makes them ignore the pass to either CM and allows them penetration and creation through occasional dribbling (but it's nothing like with IF or Winger role!). In addition to this, I've observed that the CMs do not move sideways enough, especially when the WBs have the ball. I would like them to drift wider and get closer to the WBs and RMDs when the ball is out there.

I'm wondering if a playmaking role would help....like AP-support for example. I don't know....ideally I would like at least one of my CMs to get close to 100 passes a game with as close to 90% completion as possible....like IRL Xavi used to do (during Pep's era).

Thanks for the complements cmonreds.....let's keep up the good work.

[yonko]

Yes nothing particularly wrong with it. Just a key Guardiola principle is width differentiation between the wingbacks and the wingers. If one is narrow, the other must be wide, and vice versa. Not always that easy to recreate but if/when you can you can see exactly why it works

So far I haven't seen anything wrong with the interaction between the RMDs and WBs. Actually, it's one of the many areas of the version I'm quite pleased with.

As I said, despite the fact that the role of RMD has "sit narrower" hard-coded, the players can found roaming both wider and infield. This may also have a lot to do with the fact that "moves into channels" is also hard-coded into the role. And the sleek movement is so much more deadlier than what the IF role offers, even when playing against packed defenses which I often face with Barca.

[yonko]

Upon further tests I can say that "dribble less" instruction for the front three actually hinders my attacking moves. Sure, it increases slightly the number of passes but in many situations it gets the player stuck with little options.

As soon as I unticked "dribble less" for the RMDs and the DLF, thus setting their dribbling to mixed, the attacking moves started to flow again. Players dribble until they see a passing option or a clear shot. Which led me to try and see how it would go if I untick "dribble less" for other roles too - the CMs and WBs. I like it so far, even though it still doesn't lead to 100 passes for the CMs, the moves flow better and the passing completion has increased.

[cmonreds]

Upon further tests I can say that "dribble less" instruction for the front three actually hinders my attacking moves. Sure, it increases slightly the number of passes but in many situations it gets the player stuck with little options.

As soon as I unticked "dribble less" for the RMDs and the DLF, thus setting their dribbling to mixed, the attacking moves started to flow again. Players dribble until they see a passing option or a clear shot. Which led me to try and see how it would go if I untick "dribble less" for other roles too - the CMs and WBs. I like it so far, even though it still doesn't lead to 100 passes for the CMs, the moves flow better and the passing completion has increased.

Fair points. Dribble set to mixed has been considered. Good players with the appropriate dribbling and decisionmaking skills I am sure will be able to pull it off, with a good balance between dribbling and passing. Also for my Liverpool save Sturrigde, Sterling and Origi has this as a PPM, so dribbling will occur with my team as well. Good players like the above mentioned and the whole Barca squad will do just fine with this instruction set to mixed. Still by default, I have set it to dribble less. For teams with not so gifted players. I also felt that by setting it to less it would be biased towards lesser dribbling. Also the quick one touch passing is the overall priority with this tactic. As an result it is all about how the players position themselves in triangles and diamonds during the play. All changes/tweaks are considered against this. The system/team will always be the most important.

The amount of risk involved increases the further down the pitch dribbling is allowed. It is interesting with your approach to this. I have looked into Overlap and Ramdeuter as you suggested. It looks good, but I have not been able to play enough, to obtain the overview of all the consequences with this approach. In my save I stick to what has been working so far. All the end of season drama going on. I will test the Overlap instruction and watch for the differences in regards to the wingbacks behaviour. I am a little excited about it. When I have the time I will compare the WTM and Ramdeuter as well. Nice suggestions..

[yonko]

I think that in my case with Barca, the players are so good that restrictions are counter-productive. On the other end, if the players are not of high enough quality then the tactic won't work either. I don't know what it is......perhaps it's because of the difference between the AI managers in La Liga and BPL. Also if I'm not mistaken you are in season 3 with Liverpool, whereas I'm in season one.

One interesting observation I've made is the fact that I'm scoring a lot of goals. More than I usually score with Barca and possession based tactic.

[Ferdiad]

Can I ask what difference would using CWB on either Attack or Support make? AFAIK they're more liable to make risky passes and cross more often. Never played with plain Wing Backs so don't know what roles they have enabled.

[declanelcocks]

Can I ask what difference would using CWB on either Attack or Support make? AFAIK they're more liable to make risky passes and cross more often. Never played with plain Wing Backs so don't know what roles they have enabled.

Would say that CWBs don't really help with possession based tactics as they tend to just charge up the wing and lose the ball, and will always try to cross the ball when they get near the byline. It's actually quite annoying to watch because its the same pattern every time: 1) tries to beat his man on the wing 2) doesn't beat his man 3) holds the ball up 4) tries to cross and wins a corner.

[cmonreds]

Can I ask what difference would using CWB on either Attack or Support make? AFAIK they're more liable to make risky passes and cross more often. Never played with plain Wing Backs so don't know what roles they have enabled.

Would say that CWBs don't really help with possession based tactics as they tend to just charge up the wing and lose the ball, and will always try to cross the ball when they get near the byline. It's actually quite annoying to watch because its the same pattern every time: 1) tries to beat his man on the wing 2) doesn't beat his man 3) holds the ball up 4) tries to cross and wins a corner.

Spot on declanelcocks

I am into my fourth season with Liverpool now. Still early but things are kickin off now. It takes 2-3 years to implement the philosophy of tiki taka for your first team, this is when you have the adequate players already in your squad. For the rest of the club from 3 years and above. This is when your first youth players emerges with the required attributes.

Liverpool are now a force in Europe and domestically This is done by playing tiki taka football. There are similarities between the current FM Liverpool and the real life Barcelona with Guardiola at the helm.

Some small changes to the tactic. They are not major but I decided to go for them. Firstly, the WTM are changed to Ramdeuters after advice given by others in this thread. Also the use of TI Overlap are in use instead of giving Wingbacks attaking duty. Advice from this thread as well. Still the effect is stronger with attacking duty. Also earlier mentioned the DC`s have already decreased their closing down to no PI given.

In total three players have been bought so far. Ødegaard, Oblak and a Barrientos a regen from Argentina that will be formed to become like Coutinho.

I will write a summary of this thread in the first post as well. When to use the different versions of the tactics. Attached are three versions of the tactic. The links didn`t work..Will try to solve this.

http://i.imgur.com/WmGEyXl.jpg[/img]"]

433-433

http://www.mediafire.com/download/vpvpdu9f2icokeb/TikiTaka_433_433_24B30885-0A41-4222-951A-20873EAA8110.fmf

433-343

http://www.mediafire.com/download/x84t8ly1uf9t1g7/TikiTaka_433_343_51474394-3B29-4978-98D5-8B6BB5BB1EFC.fmf

433-235

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ikeusq2eviomvsb/TikiTaka_433_235_875C0ECC-7F6A-46DC-A064-D1D291DC6766.fmf

[yonko]

So I take it that you liked how the RMDs and the Overlap instructions work, eh? I bet Sterling is deadly as RMD. Which side does he play better from, AML or AMR? BTW, how did you handle Baloteli?

I'm experimenting even more. Here is what I'm playing with now:

- add move into channels PI for both CMs

- add cross less, cross from deep and cross near post for both WBs

Also I've found out that if Match Prep is set to Teamwork then this helps tremendously with the passing and control.

[cmonreds]

So I take it that you liked how the RMDs and the Overlap instructions work, eh? I bet Sterling is deadly as RMD. Which side does he play better from, AML or AMR? BTW, how did you handle Baloteli?

I'm experimenting even more. Here is what I'm playing with now:

- add move into channels PI for both CMs

- add cross less, cross from deep and cross near post for both WBs

Also I've found out that if Match Prep is set to Teamwork then this helps tremendously with the passing and control.

I was thinking of covering it in the summary, I use TeamWork in the Match Prep. This is done as soon as the tactics are 100 % fluid. It is not just tactic but also team cohesion/training as well as attributes needed for this to work. This is why a summary is needed. The team is averaging close to 65% for possession in the league right now.

It isn`t a huge difference between the WTM and the RD roles with the PI I assign to them. Also the players PPM`s comes into effect. Still fewer long passes are made.

Sterling is playing on the left side for me. I try to use ramdeuters on the opposite side than their preferred foot as well. Balotelli was sold at first option to do so.

[Fritz13]

I was thinking of covering it in the summary, I use TeamWork in the Match Prep. This is done as soon as the tactics are 100 % fluid. It is not just tactic but also team cohesion/training as well as attributes needed for this to work. This is why a summary is needed. The team is averaging close to 65% for possession in the league right now.

It isn`t a huge difference between the WTM and the RD roles with the PI I assign to them. Also the players PPM`s comes into effect. Still fewer long passes are made.

Sterling is playing on the left side for me. I try to use ramdeuters on the opposite side than their preferred foot as well. Balotelli was sold at first option to do so.

And the same PIs are available for the RD role that were previously specified for the WTM one?

[cmonreds]

And the same PIs are available for the RD role that were previously specified for the WTM one?

Yes, they are almost identical. If you compare you will find that the WTM has hold up ball, whilst Ramdeuter has crosses set to rarely. Also the WTM might act as passing targets from longer ranges. If is cons and pros with each role. For now I stick with the ramdeuter.

[Fritz13]

Yes, they are almost identical. If you compare you will find that the WTM has hold up ball, whilst Ramdeuter has crosses set to rarely. Also the WTM might act as passing targets from longer ranges. If is cons and pros with each role. For now I stick with the ramdeuter.

Great thanks.

I got trounced 4-1 against Real Madrid (4-1-2-3 DM Wide) but did have my HB sent off after 35 mins

liverpool also beat me 3-0 with their AM plus 2 CFs - maybe it was the pace of the forwards in both games that caused our undoing.

[yonko]

I was thinking of covering it in the summary, I use TeamWork in the Match Prep. This is done as soon as the tactics are 100 % fluid. It is not just tactic but also team cohesion/training as well as attributes needed for this to work. This is why a summary is needed. The team is averaging close to 65% for possession in the league right now.

It isn`t a huge difference between the WTM and the RD roles with the PI I assign to them. Also the players PPM`s comes into effect. Still fewer long passes are made.

Sterling is playing on the left side for me. I try to use ramdeuters on the opposite side than their preferred foot as well. Balotelli was sold at first option to do so.

It seems like we are pretty much on the same page then.

[ocy]

I have been experimenting with possesion football for awhile. Just discovered a wonderful tactic.

Playing with liverpool, averaging 700 passes per game, highest so far was 884.

Average possesion is 60%. Just finished the first season, losing the BPL to chelsea on goal difference and winning the UEFA CL.

The surprise for me is that balotelli scoring 23goals in the league as a DLF.

Also, suso winning player of the year as AP(a).

..................DLF(s)..............

...................AP(a)...............

WPM(s)..AP(s)..AP(s)..WPM(s)

..................DLP(s)..............

.....CD(x).....CD©.....CD(x)....

Control + Very Fluid

[declanelcocks]

I have been experimenting with possesion football for awhile. Just discovered a wonderful tactic.

Playing with liverpool, averaging 700 passes per game, highest so far was 884.

Average possesion is 60%. Just finished the first season, losing the BPL to chelsea on goal difference and winning the UEFA CL.

The surprise for me is that balotelli scoring 23goals in the league as a DLF.

Also, suso winning player of the year as AP(a).

..................DLF(s)..............

...................AP(a)...............

WPM(s)..AP(s)..AP(s)..WPM(s)

..................DLP(s)..............

.....CD(x).....CD©.....CD(x)....

Control + Very Fluid

Wow, so many playmakers. How does that play out ingame? If you had your ideal XI, would you just field 6 playmakers everywhere in midfield? Or do you actually play wingers on the LM/RM slots and just make use of the qualities the WPM role forces?

[ocy]

I used markovic, sterling, coutinho, harry wilson, ryan kent. How they operate depend greatly on their ppm. With support duty, they mostly pass and move, occassionally run down flank/ cut inside. With attack duty, they will hog the ball more often.

[yonko]

Hey, I started a save with Liverpool and this happened:

Now, granted it was in a pre-season friendly game but I was still impressed, especially considering it's the first season and I have a few new players in the squad.

Cmonreds, you've been absent from here the last few days. I hope all is well and you are just busy with everyday life stuff. I can sure use some tips regarding Liverpool if you don't mind. Btw, Balotelli is playing very well so far.

[Fritz13]

2nd season with Barca and both Xavi and Iniesta has been dropped to the U19s to be sold as their stamina and natural fitness are no longer adequate to cope with this tactic - both had less than an average of 7.2 for the 1st season.

Going to give Song and Halilovic a crack - competing with Rakitic, Roberto, Samper and Rafinha for the 2 central midfield berths

[TjP]

Hi!

I really liked the look of this set of tactics, so I started a new career as Gooner-in-chief, and have gone through pre-season mainly using the '2-3-5' version.

I've been holding off committing to the season proper as I have been waiting for your new writeup @Cmonreds!

So since all has gone quiet, can anyone else shed some light on what situations to use which formation?

I assume the 235 is for playing at home when favorites, maybe the 343 is for playing against two strikers? Not sure about the 433 - I guess for closer games?

Can anyone confirm/deny or offer more insight? Thanks in advance.

[yonko]

I think that the basic formation stays the same - 2-3-2-3. It's through role changes that the formation virtually takes different shapes.

The 2-3-5 variation is achieved by giving the DM a supporting role and the WBs attacking roles. IMO it's useful when playing at home vs an opponent that uses a 4-5-1 formation.

The 3-4-3 shape is the default one with a HB as your DM. Yes, I would say that it's best used against teams with 2 STs. Although I've used it against other formations too. I have two different saves running now - one with Barca and another one with Liverpool.

The 4-3-3 shape is achieved by changing the HB role to regular DM(D) or Anchorman. That is useful against opponents that play with a lone ST and AMC - for example 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1.

I hope that helps and I hope that Cmonreds chimes in with his own thoughts as well. He is probably busy with real life stuff though.....

[cmonreds]

Sorry for not being able to write the summary yet. I have been playing the game and have reached the month of March of the fourth season. I have encountered different formations and have a decent overview on how to counter them. Nothing extraordinary but small changes in roles that does the job for me. Yonko you are spot on in your interpretation on how to use the different versions. I will add some of my experiences as well.

I will write the summary during this week

[tvdx]

Interested to read your summary. I'm using the tactic with Barcelona to some success, I'm unbeaten so far this season (from 15 games) but I'm conceding silly goals and not scoring as many as I could (2 goals from 8 CCCs for example), though a 9-0 demolition of Ajax in a CL game showed the potential of the tactic. There's been some strange results, a 4-4 draw with Rayo (they had 4 shots on target) after going 4-1 up though I blame myself for not reacting to their goal to make it 4-2 (I was making dinner).

Overall promising, lots of possession, lots of passes (the CM(s) sometimes makes it over 100 passes in a game) and Messi is brilliant as the F9.

[Fritz13]

I got spanked 3-0 by a team playing 3 CBs yesterday

Expect there are certain formation that could do well against this main tactic but this was the worst defeat I'd seen so far.

(Typical manager .... I rested half the team so it must have been the tactic ... Not my team selection )

Madrid seem to either best me by the odd goal or I hit 5 past them .... All a bit crazy:)

Got rid of Xavi and Iniesta as they couldn't contribute enough in terms of the full press.

As your CBs are susceptible to balls over the top a defender with decent pace (17+) has become top of my Jan 2016 shopping list

Good to have you back cmonreds

[jean.lamy84]

Just wanted to share some tests with you. Since cmonreds created his thread I've used his great tacticals things for my Barcelona save.

With some differences I want to share.

The main changes I've made are related to risks and dribble. For barcelona I think it is a shame to limit dribbling for players like Messi or Neymar. I think the same for passing risks for Iniesta and Xavi. In my mind the PI are here to give a global idea on how to play. And I think my players (and want it) are intelligent enough to take the best decisions. But I want them to use their best skills. For example, I think Neymar will be more efficient if he is free to dribble.

For the defence, I've kepted the CB duo with one pressing more and one pressing less. I like it very much because in my mind it fit perfectly how masherano and piqué play.

I also change Pique to ball player defender. I was also thinking on adding "dribble more" to the BPD. Why dribble more? Because both Hummels and Piqué have 12 in dribbling and it can be a strenght when facing attackers with poor marking/positioning/tackling.

I'm very satisfied by this set up and never change anything apart using some times OI depending on opposition (just following some simple rules or advice given by my assistants).

I've kept the half back. Always. Because I love busquets in this role. And it's a good balance for the BPD.

For the fullbacks. No change. Always on support.

For the central midfielders. I've changed the right one (Xavi role) to a deep lying playmaker.

For the right one, I've kept the MC role. But added more risky passes. I'm also thinking of adding "get further forward" in some situations to put more pressure on defence. But always with support duty.

The left winger was changed to Inside forward. As explained above. Neymar.

The right winger was recently changed to advanced playmaker. And Messi plays here. Why? Because of Suarez. Watch actual Barcelona games and remember his early years. It's his best position. I've added more roaming to make him more free.

For the central striker I generally go to complete forward support. Because it's suarez.

One important thing is adapting on players who are on the pitch. For example when messi don't play (usually replaced by Munir) I start by suarez on the right as raudmeuter and munir as deep lying forward.

What can I say more. Results maybe? In terms of possession we must be patient. I'm actually in my second season playing with cmonreds tactic and possession average is 61%. Never get more than 69% but I'm patient.

Be patient and get the right players with the right attributes (teamwork, passing, composure, flair,...)

My last match against Granada is spanich cup semi final :

66% possession. More than 800 passes. Look at samper stats. Very satisfied also on Masherano playing as half back.

What to say more. I'm happy with this. Hope to perform better on possession one day. But I like the balance between risk and possession. And this is what I see when watching barcelona games.

[cmonreds]

jean.lamy84: Nice to see you put your stamp on the tactics. Good solid assessment you have made. You tweak it in accordance with the players you have available. The tactic gets better and better for me.

I just finished the 4th season with Liverpool. It was a fantastic season both in the way of the results acchieved and also how they were acchieved. In the save game Liverpool are the "possession - daddy" of the world. Scoring 115 goals in the league and conceding 27. We conceded a few more goals at the end of the season, we were crowned champions after 32 games. In the CL as well, some really impressing results. Real Madrid were beaten 4-1 in the final. I think of Barcelona 10-11 season with regards of how the team plays.

I will write about how I use the tactics, this has improved my game. This is my interpretation of it, works for me but the best is to do like jean.lamy84 did and pursuit your own ways. I will get my head down to write the post as soon as possible. Still big things going on in the real life. I am a little excited about that as well, so when I manage to be a little less excited I will write it. I am sorry for the delay but it will come.

[jean.lamy84]

Waiting with impatience to read you on how you use your tactics

I forgot to mention that I also experimented some changes on pressing and tempo during match.

I never play a full match with press much more TI. I usually start with it. Swith to press more only after 10,20 minutes depending on match. Then swith back to press much more.

I also slow down tempo at the end of the match when I'm winning comfortably. Tried also "take a breather". But I can't conclude on this last TI.

For some matches also (Real madrid, against big team) I don't start with press much more because I think we are not capable of this. It has worked quite well (61% possession against Real).

In fact what I want to reproduce is the way that barcelona dictate a game tempo and handle "temps fort, temps faible" (sorry don't know how to say it in english).

One thing I want also to work is the ability to play long ball sometimes (watch piqué, busquets, messi) and keep it efficient.

[J-Hood]

hey cmonreds, great tactic been playing with man utd play seems good, possesion always high even against the bigger teams and having lots of shots sometimes 20 a game but my team seem to lack that killer instint lacking with actual goals.

everyone seems to have have it with a team that already suits the formation and style, liverpool, arseanl barca, bayern,.

i havent brought any players so just wondered if you had any advice for me any suggestions on some players would really help from you or anyone else.

i feel the weakness is in the midfield and wide forward players with the current team i have

[Fritz13]

For the CMs I go for natural fitness and stamina due to the nature of the high press.

I ended up selling Iniesta as he simply couldn't cope with what was being asked of him - could be that Herrera etc are the same.

Blind should be amazing as HB though

[J-Hood]

blind fits the team well, i've brought lucas romero, but my team report has the following as the best players for each postion

gk-de gea

wbr - rafeal

cb - smalling *

cb - smalling *

wbl - blind *

dm/hb - lucas romero

cm - di maria *

cm - di maria*

redueter right - di maria*

redueter left - di maria *

dlf - van persie (thought i would've been rooney but he's 3rd behind falcao)

now the player's with the stars need improving in that position obviously di maria is quality but i don't want him as best cm and best winger

[Fritz13]

I'm never sure whether I completey trust that position squad rater

If you have say a Xavi he might be rated higher for the CM position than say a Samper... Even though Xavi simply doesn't have the physical attributes any more.

Use your own judgement as of course this won't take into account your tactic(s) of choice.

For this tactic as long as the composure, vision, passing etc plus physicals are decent the player should do well at CM.

Not sure if Di Maria is suited to an IF or RMD role so CM could be the best place for him.

[all4everdragon]

I would like to share my insight about this since it's also my model of looking into football. As we all know, Guardiola is today the main reference, now with Bayern Munich and before with Barcelona. Between one team and the other, a lot has changed and it's natural: different teams, different players, the manager ideas have to adapt to the player's caractheristics. But the topic here is tiki-taka, so it has more to do with Guardiola's Barcelona than Bayern.

I'm going to share also some links that I think are important and helpful:

Barcelona controlled games and knew how, and when to change the rhythm and tempo of the game: from slow intricate passing, to monopolizing the ball at a quicker speed and tempo. They did it consistently, and in no game in the Guardiola era did Barcelona see less of the ball. The possession wasn’t for the sake of it however. It was proactive football: They decided the way opponents will play. They moved the ball with purpose to move the opposition and as such create and open spaces to exploit. “Move the opponent, not the ball. Invite the opponent to press. You have the ball on one side, to finish on the other.”

and also

Interviewer: What’s the importance to you as the coach of the tempo at which the game is played? The speed?

Pep: I will like to play in a high high speed. To change the rhythm you must play at a huge speed, because It’s only when you play with a huge speed that you can change the rhythm. You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm.

Full article here: https://defendingwiththeball.wordpress.com/tag/pep-guardiola/

We also know that (from Wikipedia):

Tiki-taka is a style of play in football characterised by short passing and movement, working the ball through various channels, and maintaining possession.

and

Tiki-taka has been variously described as "a style of play based on making your way to the back of the net through short passing and movement,"a "short passing style in which the ball is worked carefully through various channels,"and a "nonsensical phrase that has come to mean short passing, patience and possession above all else."The style involves roaming movement and positional interchange among midfielders, moving the ball in intricate patterns, and sharp, one or two-touch passing. Tiki-taka is "both defensive and offensive in equal measure" – the team is always in possession, so doesn't need to switch between defending and attacking. Commentators have contrasted tiki-taka with "route one physicality"and with the higher-tempo passing of Arsène Wenger's 2007–08 Arsenal side, which employed Cesc Fàbregas as the only channel between defence and attack. Tiki-taka is associated with flair, creativity, and touch, but can also be taken to a "slow, directionless extreme" that sacrifices effectiveness for aesthetics.

Also this article has some key ideas (see here full article: http://soccermommanual.com/how-to-play-like-barcelona-tiki-taka-total-football/

Quick, strong, precise passes through the center of the field, moving the ball from one side of the field to the other

Controlled, precise trapping

Shielding of the ball from defenders and protecting/possessing the ball like a jealous boyfriend

Always look for an outlet BACK to ease pressure and restart the advance

Play what you see, the way you’re facing

Key Elements to Playing Like Barcelona, are:

Strong defense (good ball-handling and vision across the back-line)

Strong middle (center of the field – visualize a T-shape formed by the defensive line, a midfielder and a forward)

Quick outside players (on recreational teams, weaker players can be very effective playing outside midfield/forward positions)

Play wide, to the lines, and be patient.

Play backward to ease pressure and restart the advance

A final article here: http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/13977/barcelona-system-reinverting-pyramid-getafe/

Now, trying to shuffle all these concepts and put them in FM - this is a tricky one I think we all see some TI coming up like Short Passing, Roaming from Positions, Retain Possession, Work Ball into Box, Play from Defence, Much Higher Defence Line, Close Down More / Much More, Use Offside Trap. Now, the main problems could be with Mentality, Team Shape, and other main problems that we cannot control I guess are with FM itself (impossible to define tempo with the ball or without the ball, player movements need some work - I see a lot a player running to his position instead of closing down -, impossible to work a zonal pressing in which the team allows some space in some areas of the pitch inviting the opponent, etc, etc). Since tiki-taka is neither defensive or offensive that would mean a Standard Mentality, but I think we are a bit mislead by the box descriptions. As I see it, Control means offensive players with a more direct pass and more urgency to get to the goal, so it doesn't fit these ideas. Offensive players must play with a higher tempo but this can be achieved with Plays One-Twos PPM.

Now, this text from some forum has a point regarding text box descriptions that can mislead us:

The TC's descriptions of the various styles aren't entirely accurate. Specifically, attacking players in more fluid styles become less inclined to contribute to defensive and transition play as you use more aggressive mentalities whereas defensive players in more rigid styles become more inclined to contribute to other phases of play as you use more aggressive mentalities. The reverse is also true. Defensive players in more fluid styles become more rigidly defensive as mentality gets less aggressive just as attacking players in more rigid styles become more willing to contribute in transition play as mentality gets less aggressive.

In other words, it doesn't always hold that all players will contribute to all phases of play in a very fluid system nor does it always hold that players will necessarily be restricted to one phase of play in a rigid system. Mentality affects the point of reference that determines the phases of play to which each unit will contribute. You note that the mentality settings are more plastic than their names imply, and this is also true of fluidity. A very fluid Contain tactic, for example, will not have defenders getting forward. Rather, it will have the whole team focused on implementing a Contain strategy at the expense of attacking and, to a lesser extent, transition play. With this in mind, it may be more helpful to think of style in terms of the player's willingness to contribute to the core strategy. For example, players in a very fluid system will all focus on carrying out the basic strategy (be it defending, controlling, attacking, etc.) whereas attacking and defensive players in a more rigid system will be less inclined to focus on the basic strategy (but also won't necessarily be solely focused on just defending or just attacking).

To this extent, it's important to emphasize that style and mentality interact in ways that may contradict the basic descriptions in the TC. For example, while the description of Control says that fullbacks will generally only get forward in risk-free situations, it ignores the fact that a fullback in a Rigid Attack tactic operates at the same mentality setting as a fullback in a Very Fluid Control tactic and a lower mentality setting than an attack-duty fullback in a Balanced Control tactic. Again, the TC glosses over these subtle interactions, and especially with the new tactics system, it's important for new players to understand how mentality affects each style's point of reference.

Hope you all enjoy and sorry for the long post :-)

[all4everdragon]

Sorry guys, this afternoon I've spent a lot of time writing my view about this, with the help of several articles, but at the end I received a message that my post needed a mod approval and then it was missing :-(

[all4everdragon]

Ok, I'll try and do it once more.

Since this is my favourite model of playing, I'm also going to share my views about it with some articles I've found very helpful. I think we can all agree with a few TI such as Retain Possession, Work Ball Into Box, Short Passing, Play Through Defence, Much Higher Defence Line, Close Down More / Much More, Overlaps, Use Offside Trap. Then, there are a few aspects to look into: a few we can control (setting mentality and team shape), other we can't (limitations about FM itself such as different options of pressing, this link is an example of what I mean: https://jamieadams3.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/the-importance-of-pressing-in-modern-football-why-the-english-game-must-keep-up/).

Now, it's easy to collect some tips like

Barcelona controlled games and knew how, and when to change the rhythm and tempo of the game: from slow intricate passing, to monopolizing the ball at a quicker speed and tempo. They did it consistently, and in no game in the Guardiola era did Barcelona see less of the ball. The possession wasn’t for the sake of it however. It was proactive football: They decided the way opponents will play. They moved the ball with purpose to move the opposition and as such create and open spaces to exploit. “Move the opponent, not the ball. Invite the opponent to press. You have the ball on one side, to finish on the other.”

and this one:

Interviewer: What’s the importance to you as the coach of the tempo at which the game is played? The speed?

Pep: I will like to play in a high high speed. To change the rhythm you must play at a huge speed, because It’s only when you play with a huge speed that you can change the rhythm. You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm.

Please check full article here: https://defendingwiththeball.wordpress.com/tag/pep-guardiola/

I guess this one of those problems we can't control because FM doesn't allow different tempos depending the pitch zone our players are moving the ball around.

From Wikipedia: (...) is a style of play in football characterised by short passing and movement, working the ball through various channels, and maintaining possession. (...) described as "a style of play based on making your way to the back of the net through short passing and movement,"a "short passing style in which the ball is worked carefully through various channels,"and a "nonsensical phrase that has come to mean short passing, patience and possession above all else."The style involves roaming movement and positional interchange among midfielders, moving the ball in intricate patterns, and sharp, one or two-touch passing.Tiki-taka is "both defensive and offensive in equal measure" – the team is always in possession, so doesn't need to switch between defending and attacking.

This article (check here: http://soccermommanual.com/how-to-play-like-barcelona-tiki-taka-total-football/) also offers a few key concepts:

Strategic Secrets to Playing Effective Tiki-taka (Barcelona style) Soccer

Quick, strong, precise passes through the center of the field, moving the ball from one side of the field to the other

Controlled, precise trapping

Shielding of the ball from defenders and protecting/possessing the ball like a jealous boyfriend

Always look for an outlet BACK to ease pressure and restart the advance

Play what you see, the way you’re facing

Key Elements to Playing Like Barcelona, are:

Strong defense (good ball-handling and vision across the back-line)

Strong middle (center of the field – visualize a T-shape formed by the defensive line, a midfielder and a forward)

Quick outside players (on recreational teams, weaker players can be very effective playing outside midfield/forward positions)

Play wide, to the lines, and be patient.

Play backward to ease pressure and restart the advance

Considering all this, I think a problem that arises is the text box descriptions presented in Mentality, Team Shape and some TI. This text was published in another forum, I don't know who wrote it but rises a few interesting arguments:

The TC's descriptions of the various styles aren't entirely accurate. Specifically, attacking players in more fluid styles become less inclined to contribute to defensive and transition play as you use more aggressive mentalities whereas defensive players in more rigid styles become more inclined to contribute to other phases of play as you use more aggressive mentalities. The reverse is also true. Defensive players in more fluid styles become more rigidly defensive as mentality gets less aggressive just as attacking players in more rigid styles become more willing to contribute in transition play as mentality gets less aggressive.

In other words, it doesn't always hold that all players will contribute to all phases of play in a very fluid system nor does it always hold that players will necessarily be restricted to one phase of play in a rigid system. Mentality affects the point of reference that determines the phases of play to which each unit will contribute. You note that the mentality settings are more plastic than their names imply, and this is also true of fluidity. A very fluid Contain tactic, for example, will not have defenders getting forward. Rather, it will have the whole team focused on implementing a Contain strategy at the expense of attacking and, to a lesser extent, transition play. With this in mind, it may be more helpful to think of style in terms of the player's willingness to contribute to the core strategy. For example, players in a very fluid system will all focus on carrying out the basic strategy (be it defending, controlling, attacking, etc.) whereas attacking and defensive players in a more rigid system will be less inclined to focus on the basic strategy (but also won't necessarily be solely focused on just defending or just attacking).

To this extent, it's important to emphasize that style and mentality interact in ways that may contradict the basic descriptions in the TC. For example, while the description of Control says that fullbacks will generally only get forward in risk-free situations, it ignores the fact that a fullback in a Rigid Attack tactic operates at the same mentality setting as a fullback in a Very Fluid Control tactic and a lower mentality setting than an attack-duty fullback in a Balanced Control tactic. Again, the TC glosses over these subtle interactions, and especially with the new tactics system, it's important for new players to understand how mentality affects each style's point of reference.

Now, I would say that Standard, Very Fluid would be something to work because as it's said it's neither defensive or offensive and even Control mentality rushes things a bit. Since it's also directionless I would leave in blank exploit the middle / exploit the flanks. Play Narrower reduces space, but width is also required so I'm not sure how to deal with this specific problem unless using some PI and PPM. Finaly, Tempo: people always tend to think tiki-taka with a very low tempo but Guardiola himself says he likes speed, high speed. I'm not sure how his liking translates to the TI Tempo in FM.

Hope this is helpful for us all and sorry for the long post.

[DouglasMig]

Very interesting analysis of Yonko.

[TheBigBoss]

Class thread, I'll give it go and let you know how I get on

[shwayne]

Great thread guys. Liberally 'borrowing' a lot of this in developing my own tactic as it reflects the way I'd like to play to quite an extent.

One thing I think may be useful would be to focus on attributes and minimum requirements for each position/role in the team. I was wondering how people may prioritise them too, appreciating that unless you're playing as a club with a lot of wealth you are unlikely to be able to go out and buy a ready-made perfect fit.

I'm thinking the structure being used can broadly be broken up as follows:

GK

WBs

CDs (appreciate these have been touched on a bit)

DM

CMs

Wide players (Raumdeuter seems popular)

FW

For each of those which attributes would people say are most useful/important?

[yonko]

Great thread guys. Liberally 'borrowing' a lot of this in developing my own tactic as it reflects the way I'd like to play to quite an extent.

One thing I think may be useful would be to focus on attributes and minimum requirements for each position/role in the team. I was wondering how people may prioritise them too, appreciating that unless you're playing as a club with a lot of wealth you are unlikely to be able to go out and buy a ready-made perfect fit.

I'm thinking the structure being used can broadly be broken up as follows:

GK

WBs

CDs (appreciate these have been touched on a bit)

DM

CMs

Wide players (Raumdeuter seems popular)

FW

For each of those which attributes would people say are most useful/important?

The game already highlights the important attributes for each role. In addition, you need the following in terms of executing the tiki-taka style of play:

first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, decisions, off the ball, positioning, team work, work rate, agility

[shwayne]

The game already highlights the important attributes for each role. In addition, you need the following in terms of executing the tiki-taka style of play:

first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, decisions, off the ball, positioning, team work, work rate, agility

Thanks for the response, however it's not quite what I was hoping for.

I'm aware the game highlights key attributes for each role. However, they are very generic and as you acknowledge in your post, there are other attributes that need to be taken into consideration when looking to play tiki-taka.

Considering that players who have good stats in all role and tiki-taka attributes are exceptionally rare, I suppose I was asking which are the most important, to give a decent pool of recruits from which to pick? Say you were limited to 10 attributes for each position, what would those attributes be and what would their minimum level be? Interested in hearing thoughts from a range of people here.