PPM in general - really a bonus?

[Jean-Luc]

I am relatively new to FM but have spent the last weeks playing and playing, reading and reading and absorbing information.

My question is: Are PPMs really something to strive for?

As I understand it, a PPM can only be learned (and, more importantly: used effectively) if you have the right attributes anyway. In that case, a PPM either "overwrites" a tactical order (like a defensive DM that "tries killer balls often" and thus attempts more through balls than his tactical order says) or it just emphasizes a move that this player might do anyway, given his attributes.

So... if a player has the right attributes to do something, and also the tactical order, isn't it more or less useless to also let him have the PPM "on top of that"? Would a winger on the left not always "run down left" in any case, because that's simply what he should do as a left-winger?

I just read the "Shoots with power vs. places shots"-Thread, where people were arguing if a player can place a shot without having the "places shots" PPM, and from what I understand, he can of course do that. So learning the PPM will just limit his tactical creativity because there might be opportunities when he should NOT do it to get a goal.

At the same time, learning PPMs needs a lot of time, effort and capacity that otherwise could be channeled into the progress of attributes.

So, can somebody explain to me why and how he uses the achievement of new PPMs for a player, and how exactly this changes their behaviour? I'd be very happy for any clarification on that.

[Apos]

Because the right attributes doesn't mean that he will do the right thing anyway, poor decisions and the necessary stats can result in making the wrong move at a wrong time, but do it perfectly.

If you have a tactic that benefits highly from killer balls for example, then it ensures than your playmaker won't start doing his own stuff and will stick to what will create the most opportunities. Sure, he will miss a couple opportunities that won't need a killer ball, but he will also create much more from not improvising when he shouldn't.

In essence, PPM's are not exactly any sort of extra stats to give better performances. Almost all of them are double-edged swords which are there mainly to have your players play in ways that benefits your team most.

[Jean-Luc]

But do those "double egded swords" justify training the players learning new PPMs, or isn't it just the better strategy to look at the PPMs in your squad available and then decide your strategy based on what you have?

And is there any nice comprehensive list of ideas on how to match up PPMs with certain strategies?

[furiousuk]

I don't pay that much attention to PPM's but I really should, they are important and help define 'character' and from what I've read they are even more important in FM13 than before and likely to be increasingly more varied and important with each new FM.

Some PPM's are tactical modifiers (i.e. can be set with tactics) so its debateable whether you'd want to specifically learn those but the others (and I think these are the majority) are traits that enhance how a player plays (or restricts them depending on your point of view). There are some PPM's that characterise how a player plays beyond his tactical instructions or his attribute makeup (such as dictates tempo or switches play often).

In short, pay attention to PPM's and think of them as augments to your playing style and the playing style of the player. In some ways the tactical modifier ones make things easy because you can spend less time tinkering and more time watching and enjoying playing the game.

[majorkong]

PPMs give a particular player a strong flavor. You can put runs with ball to often in the tactics, but a player with the runs with ball often PPM will run at opponents far more often and more consistently than one without the PPM and just with a tactical instruction. Messi won't play like Messi without the PPM.

Also there are PPMs that don't correspond to tactical instructions. Curls ball. Plays way out of trouble. Makes late runs into the box. Plays one-twos. Lobs keeper.

PPMs can also help to "fix" a player's poor decision making. If you have a newgen with no PPMs and so-so mental stats, he'll drive you mad. The right PPMs will help this player fit better into the role you have in mind.

[majorkong]

But do those "double egded swords" justify training the players learning new PPMs, or isn't it just the better strategy to look at the PPMs in your squad available and then decide your strategy based on what you have?

And is there any nice comprehensive list of ideas on how to match up PPMs with certain strategies?

PPMs play a big factor in whether a player will fit into a particular role or not. So yeah, you want to look at the PPMs in your squad to determine what roles are appropriate.

Teaching PPMs via training is useful here and there with an established player, but it's more important for developing youth players. If you haven't noticed, youth players in the game often arrive very raw, and it's up to you to decide what role the player might ultimately fill for your first team. You then shape the player into the role, and you do it with tutoring, teaching PPMs, and attribute shaping.

[Rashidi]

Read my thread called FM13 a simple guide and try and understand how I use ppms, they aren't a double edged sword if you plan ahead. In fact, I daresay its the single biggest priority for me when it comes to player development.

[Apos]

Read my thread called FM13 a simple guide and try and understand how I use ppms, they aren't a double edged sword if you plan ahead. In fact, I daresay its the single biggest priority for me when it comes to player development.

That's exactly the definition of something being a double-edged sword, it can turn against you if you don't know how to use it. Of course they can be effective and beneficial when you know what you are doing.

[Rashidi]

Life is a double edged sword. Noone can expect to do things without concomitant effects.

[Jean-Luc]

Teaching PPMs via training is useful here and there with an established player, but it's more important for developing youth players. If you haven't noticed, youth players in the game often arrive very raw, and it's up to you to decide what role the player might ultimately fill for your first team. You then shape the player into the role, and you do it with tutoring, teaching PPMs, and attribute shaping.

In fact, I daresay its the single biggest priority for me when it comes to player development.

As far as I understood, Tutoring is one way to pass on PPMs to younger players, but you can't really control that, can you? If the tutor has a bunch of PPMs, he will just pass one on that might even be the wrong kind.

I had a young striker learn the "Avoids using weaker foot" from his tutor, when, unfortunately, the young player had a "very strong" and a "strong" foot, so it was basically rubbish and I should probably unlearn it.

At the same time, if you tell your coaches to teach a younger player a certain PPM, this will slow down the development of attributes. That's why, so far, I was quite reluctant to actively pursue the training of new PPMs. Both methods seem to have their disadvantages...?

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

I completely ignore PPMs. There is no advantage or disadvantage in having them.

[furiousuk]

There certainly are advantages and disadvantages.

Just read the thread, enough of them have been put forward just in this thread alone, both the good and the bad.

[wez007]

I completely ignore PPMs. There is no advantage or disadvantage in having them.

Cant disagree with this more tbh. PPM's make up around 50% of the way I mould my team to play, you get the round holes in the round pegs and it works like a dream. Unfortunately square pegs dont fit round holes so the wrong PPM can have a seriously bad effect. If people read up on them, get the right balance then they are a winner, a lot of it is common sense really

[Shakes]

At the same time, if you tell your coaches to teach a younger player a certain PPM, this will slow down the development of attributes.

I'm not convinced it works like that. To me it seems that players gain ability through playing (and playing well) in matches. All coaching seems to do is affect how it is pumped into their attributes. So a player spending more time on PPMs will spend less time on the focus you give them therefore tend to grow a little more towards the generic template for their position than they would otherwise.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Cant disagree with this more tbh. PPM's make up around 50% of the way I mould my team to play, you get the round holes in the round pegs and it works like a dream. Unfortunately square pegs dont fit round holes so the wrong PPM can have a seriously bad effect. If people read up on them, get the right balance then they are a winner, a lot of it is common sense really

Already a winner without them thank you.

Another person who over complicates the game ruining it for others.

[wez007]

Already a winner without them thank you.

Another person who over complicates the game ruining it for others.

Has somoene not had thier shreddies this morning? How am i a/ over complicating and b/ ruining it for others?! what a dumb ass un-thought out response, you really need to think things out before you post Steph

Its not over complicating things, as IRL (and thats where FM full cream tries to get too) players have PPM's and use them to thier advantage, very much the way they do in FM. Some individualty on player personalites is a must to give it a more unique feel, players have a varied personality and not just attribute based.

If your doing well withouth them then big :applause:to you but some of us (as mentioned in this very thread) use them create a unique way of playing and the more experneiced use it to an advantage. Its not about ruining it for anyone else but giving a view of the tools available to us all as FM players.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

If people read up on them, get the right balance then they are a winner, a lot of it is common sense really

Misleads people into believing it is important. It isn't. Sadly like so many long-winded threads here it describes football in real life NOT FOOTBALL MANAGER.

Hope this forum never writes a tactic for pac-man.

[RTHerringbone]

Misleads people into believing it is important. It isn't.

.......in your opinion.

[MichaelBrown]

Misleads people into believing it is important. It isn't. Sadly like so many long-winded threads here it describes football in real life NOT FOOTBALL MANAGER.

Hope this forum never writes a tactic for pac-man.

I completly disagree. They can seriously enhance how your team plays.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

I completly disagree. They can seriously enhance how your team plays.

I can easily prove it with my Champions' League victories as the mighty Bolton. Paid no attention whatsoever to PPMs, team talks or training. They are not that important. So you are (in my opinion) wrong.

[furiousuk]

I don't pay that much attention to them either, but I should. Like many mechanisms in the game, you don't have to pay attention to it but it can enhance your play if you do (you don't need to pay attention to tactics to be succesful, but it helps!)

No probs with the disagreements but keep it constructive please chaps

edit: and if you haven't seen it yet Rashidi has just posted a write up on PPMs http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/346202-Player-Preferred-Moves-how-to-enhance-your-team

[Shakes]

While SMSL is a bit ... abrasive ... in how he's putting it, he does have a point.

Since the game still has to be winnable in classic mode, we can conclude anything that was cut from the full mode when making classic is really a bonus feature, not something key to winning. You can't train PPMs in classic mode AFAIK. Therefore I think it's safe to conclude PPMs are intended as a fun feature for people who enjoy that sort of thing. But if messing around with PPMs aren't your thing you also shouldn't feel like you're missing out on anything: SI have designed the game to be playable while ignoring them.

I read a lot of advice here that I'd say is good advice, but that ignores that some people just want to treat this like the simple game that it is. While there's certainly many posters who will talk about watching full games and going through training with a fine tooth comb I think the opposite point of view often gets left out. Possible because the sorts of people who rush through the seasons are also less likely to be the sorts of people who post novels about playing the game, I don't know.

I think it's refreshing that someone has actually come in here and said you can just set up a tactic, select a team and mash the instant result button and have great success. It's a point of view that could stand to be expressed more.

Anyway just my opinion, hopefully it's seen as constructive, I don't want Cleon, or Rashidi, or wwfan to change what they're doing, it's obviously a service that a large part of the forum community enjoys. But I also think there's room for a SMSL style interjection of "I ignore all of that because I think it's fluff and still do fine, don't feel you need to do it if you don't enjoy it" every now and then. Otherwise there'll be people thinking "ugh, I need to go through and set up training and PPMs on all my players before I can even start the next season ... screw it, going on youtube to watch cat videos instead". I know the dread of just getting started sometimes gets to me, and it's good to have a reminder that if you ignore some stuff your game wont just fall apart, you'll do just fine.

[Cleon]

Since the game still has to be winnable in classic mode, we can conclude anything that was cut from the full mode when making classic is really a bonus feature, not something key to winning. You can't train PPMs in classic mode AFAIK.

The assumption of saying anything that was cut is wrong and doesn't mean it was a bonus feature at all. The whole point of FMC was so micro-management was took away and players could concentrate on other areas of the game. This doesn't mean they are bonus features at all.

I read a lot of advice here that I'd say is good advice, but that ignores that some people just want to treat this like the simple game that it is. While there's certainly many posters who will talk about watching full games and going through training with a fine tooth comb I think the opposite point of view often gets left out. Possible because the sorts of people who rush through the seasons are also less likely to be the sorts of people who post novels about playing the game, I don't know.

I don't agree here. I actually probably play the game faster than 99% of people on here and I'm one of those who you class as posting novels.

The thing you seem to be forgetting with this post is that the people who the guides etc are written for are the ones who really struggle with the game so they tend to be detailed and lengthy so the user can see all the options available to them so they can see and find a solution to such problems. Some of these posts also go someway to helping how the game actually works and cuts out a lot of myths we see appear on the forum. You need to first learn the basics (if you don't already and have been struggling) so that you can play at fast speed and fly through the seasons.

I think it's refreshing that someone has actually come in here and said you can just set up a tactic, select a team and mash the instant result button and have great success. It's a point of view that could stand to be expressed more.

I think you should really read more threads on here because this is said a lot around here by myself, wwfan, furious, Lam and many more people.

[Cleon]

Already a winner without them thank you.

Another person who over complicates the game ruining it for others.

Misleads people into believing it is important. It isn't. Sadly like so many long-winded threads here it describes football in real life NOT FOOTBALL MANAGER.

Hope this forum never writes a tactic for pac-man.

If you're going to do such posts as this then please forget about posting in here.

If its not your thing then fine don't post or use a thread about them because that would be classed as trolling.

[Shakes]

The assumption of saying anything that was cut is wrong and doesn't mean it was a bonus feature at all. The whole point of FMC was so micro-management was took away and players could concentrate on other areas of the game. This doesn't mean they are bonus features at all.

I'm not really trying to start a debate about terminology, whether "bonus" feature is the right term or not my point is that if it's not in FMC, it's not something that you absolutely need to use to win at the game.

I don't agree here. I actually probably play the game faster than 99% of people on here and I'm one of those who you class as posting novels.

I meant that as a good thing btw, I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. I tried to convey with the smiley that I was just poking a little fun in calling them novels, if I've offended I apologize!

I think you should really read more threads on here because this is said a lot around here by myself, wwfan, furious, Lam and many more people.

I may not post often but I am a dedicated lurker who reads just about every post. My impression is that the forum as a whole tends to lean towards the "it's important you pay attention to this" rather than the "do it or don't, wont make much difference either way" end of the spectrum. Of course that's a rather subjective opinion, and if you disagree I'm really not trying to change your mind. I guess it's on me here, because you need to be the change you want to see, and so I should post more saying so when I think people are over-complicating things.

[Althaz]

I completely ignore PPMs. There is no advantage or disadvantage in having them.

Holy misinformation Batman!

You certainly don't need them, but they can both be incredibly useful and a hindrance, depending on which ones you've got for which players. If you are struggling with the game I would generally ignore them and concentrate on things like motivating your players and tactics, but PPMs can be the difference between your side being Manchester City and Barcelona.

[olivermain83]

I'm not sure they're not essential to a winning tactic but, as has already been said, they can add character to your team or individuals. I like to think of it along the lines of imagine if Ronaldo had Tries Step-Overs as one. Or Suarez had Fond of Diving. It wont make or break him as a player but it adds character to him in a way that team instructions never could.

I've been dying to turn a regen in a Pirlo/Alonso style playmaker who sits deep, plays ridiculous long range but accurate passes. I'm pretty sure the only way to go about it is to train the right PPM's as opposed to the right instructions on the sliders. I'm thinking PPM's like Tries long range passes, Switches Ball to Flanks, Tries Killer Balls, Maybe Stays Back At All Times.

My main worry about training them is making a mistake and training the wrong thing that might 'ruin' my player.

[Rashidi]

My main worry about training them is making a mistake and training the wrong thing that might 'ruin' my player.

They can be removed so they won't ruin anything.

[olivermain83]

I know but I often struggle for some reason, maybe i'm using the wrong coaches. For instance, my right fb has tries long balls and only 10 for passing. Needless to say he gives away a lot possession with silly punts upfield. I've failed twice to get him to unlearn it. Starting to think about selling him now as he just frustrates me. He's a decent player otherwise.

[Jean-Luc]

I am surprised that nobody yet has come up with a write-up about how to use different PPMs in specific occasions or for specific tactics.

There's an overview at guidetofootballmanager.com, but that one only explains which attributes are important for which PPM. It does not explain how the behaviour of your player actually changes on the pitch, and how you can connect that to your own idea of playing style.

I am also still not totally convinced on how big the effect of a PPM is in comparison to a player without a certain PPM, but having the right stats for it. Isn't it in the nature of a player who is set to be an DLP with good Passing, Anticipation, Teamwork, etc. attributes to try killer balls? That's his job, no? That's why I put him in that place?

[Cleon]

I am surprised that nobody yet has come up with a write-up about how to use different PPMs in specific occasions or for specific tactics.

There's an overview at guidetofootballmanager.com, but that one only explains which attributes are important for which PPM. It does not explain how the behaviour of your player actually changes on the pitch, and how you can connect that to your own idea of playing style.

I am also still not totally convinced on how big the effect of a PPM is in comparison to a player without a certain PPM, but having the right stats for it. Isn't it in the nature of a player who is set to be an DLP with good Passing, Anticipation, Teamwork, etc. attributes to try killer balls? That's his job, no? That's why I put him in that place?

Not really no because as a general rule the DLP is placed too far down the pitch normally to do this. So by giving him the type of PPM's that encourage him to do killer balls, switch play, dictate tempo, stops plays etc you encourage him to do those kind of things a lot more than he currently does.

[AlienIR]

Hello Jean Luc;

It's not easy to answer to your question; especially in english as my native language is french.

Well do we need them to win? Not really, you can play without them... but they help to improve player's performance if you succeed to fit them to the player and tactic.

Example; about shoot with power vs place the shot. IMO; it depends more of where from the player is shooting than what are is charactheristic.

A winger or an IF on the wings is not in front of the net....so teaching him shot with power improve the probability of a out target shot. Morever, usually this kind of players are fairly technical, so teaching them "Place the Shots" it suitable to the tactic and to the characteristics.

For a striker, as a poacher....shot with power can be useful as usually they have to beat the goal's reflex....a shot with power can be useful. Moreover, they are in front of the net and quite close to it if your system works well.

About MC, the choice is harder..as teaching them shoot with power can help due to the distance of the net but also can improve the risk of out target. Then you need to be more careful about other PPM...I prefer to teach him to use his better foot, to improve the probability of a shoot on target.

The other PPM

Try to find the one you are suitable to the task and the mechanism of your tactics. If you love to see wingback go ahead...teach them the PPM...If the idea is to use a MO to make him impact...teach him run often with the ball; try to play killer ball if you want him to percut, to force the defenders to close him down, and then to play killer ball.

If your idea is to make your MC arrive quite late in the six yard..teach them so.

You see, IMO it's almost impossible to give a "which PPM to teach in regards of the characteristics" thread. First because PPM are prior to the individual tactic adjustments, if I understood well...Second, because for the same task and duties, but in different system some PPM can be useful, some not...that why you need to be careful to them when it's time to sign up a player.

Of course, if a players don't have the good characterics for, teaching him a PPM can make him become useless...The best example is the "Shot from distance" PPM. In lower league, many players have it but not the characteristic for.. Lots of the trouble about out target shots come from this kind of interaction, IMO.

So about the debate, PPM or not...it depends of many things. For some FM players, they are useless, as for some others the shouts or tactic analysis are. It depends of how you want to play this game...the most important is to find the pleasure.

IMO PPM are not the first part to take care of...First make yourself sure that the mechanism of your tactic is right, that it suits to your team and that your strategy and approach are good.

Then find key players...as IMO there is no need to teach a PPM to a player who is going to stay max 2 seasons. Because learning PPM use training time...In such a case, I prefer to develop characteristics rather than PPM.

For the key player, I make sure of his development first....then I teach him the PPM which suits to him and the mechanism of my tactics.

This give a flavor, I remind to have enjoyed to teach some PPM to Dzagoev as after this he became a killer world player..it also a matter of satisfaction.If you do the right choices,it improves the impact of the player in your system.

I see PPM like this: A player improvement IRL because of the tutoring of their manager...not because of how good he is on the pitch.

But, you can also play FM without them..It just depend of how you want to play this game.

About the choice to make, IMO it's quite logical, the main matter is to understand what does really mean the PPM you want to teach to the player, and, to see if the characteristics and system are suitable.

Hope had been helpful.

Sorry for the mistakes dear native english speakers, hope it had been clearful enough.

[AlienIR]

Hello Jean Luc;

It's not easy to answer to your question; especially in english as my native language is french.

Well do we need them to win? Not really, you can play without them... but they help to improve player's performance if you succeed to fit them to the player and tactic.

Example; about shoot with power vs place the shot. IMO; it depends more of where from the player is shooting than what are his charactheristic.

A winger or an IF, coming from the wings, is not in front of the net....so teaching him shot with power improve the probability of a out target shot. Morever, usually this kind of players are fairly technical, so teaching them "Place the Shots" it suitable to the tactic and to the characteristics.

For a striker, as a poacher....shot with power can be useful as usually they have to beat the goal's reflex....a shot with power can be useful. Moreover, they are in front of the net and quite close to it if your system works well, so there is not such a risk that they shot with power.

About MC or target man, the choice is harder..as teaching them shoot with power can help due to the distance of the net but also can improve the risk of out target. Then you need to be more careful about other PPM, and to the technical characteristics..I prefer to teach him to use his better foot, to improve the probability of a shoot on target.

The other PPM

Try to find the one you are suitable to the task and the mechanism of your tactics.

If you love to see wingback go forward...teach them the PPM...If the idea is to use a MO to make him impact...teach him run often with the ball; try to play killer ball if you want him to percut, to force the defenders to close him down, and then to play killer ball.

If your idea is to make your MC arrive quite late in the six yard..teach them so.

You see, IMO it's almost impossible to give a "which PPM to teach in regards of the characteristics" thread. First because PPM are prior to the individual tactic adjustments, if I understood well...Second, because for the same task and duties, but in different system, some PPM can be useful, some not...that why you need to be careful to them when it's time to sign up a player.

Of course, if a players don't have the good characterics for, teaching him a PPM can make him become useless...The best example is the "Shot from distance" PPM.

In lower leagues, many players have it but not the characteristic for.. Lots of the trouble about out target shots come from this kind of interaction, IMO.

So about the debate, PPM or not...it depends of many things.

For some FM players, they are useless, as for some others the shouts or tactic analysis are. It depends of how you want to play this game...the most important is to find the pleasure.

IMO PPM are not the first part to take care of, but I enjoy to use them...

First make yourself sure that the mechanism of your tactic is right, that it suits to your team and that your strategy and approach are good.

Then find key players, who you want to stay for many years...as IMO there is no need to teach a PPM to a player who is going to stay max 2 seasons. Because learning PPM use training time...In such a case, I prefer to develop characteristics rather than PPM.

For the key player, I make sure of his development first....then I teach him the PPM which suits to him and the mechanism of my tactics.

This definitly gives a flavor. I remind on FM11, the pleasure I getto teach some PPM to Dzagoev as after this he became a killer world player..it also a matter of satisfaction. If you do the right choices,it improves the impact of the player in your system.

I see PPM like this: A player improvement IRL because of the tutoring of their manager...not because of how good he is on the pitch.

But, you can also play FM without them..It just depends of how you want to play this game.

About the choices to make, IMO they are quite logical, the main matter is to understand what does really mean the PPM you want to teach to the player, and, to see if the characteristics and system are suitable.

Hope had been helpful.

Sorry for the mistakes dear native english speakers, hope it had been clearful enough.