Being Bielsa, but a bit less loco (hopefully)!

[bakes106]

As in the 4-1-2-2-1 yeah course i had sort of forgotten about this thread so sorry. Ill try and get it done today/tonight although it will more than likely be tomorrow

yes please

[jimbobBRFC]

yes please

Again I have forgotten. I will do it this afternoon, definately

[Julien62740]

This are great results mate !

Any downloads links ?

[jimbobBRFC]

This are great results mate !

Any downloads links ?

I can try and find the tactic, although I have never uploaded a tactic before so frankly I have no idea how to do it. I'm also currently writing up the second bit of the analysis so that will be up sometime soon

[jimbobBRFC]

So im finally getting round to finishing this little write up off, Im sorry about the rather long wait, every time I've sat down to do it something has come up or ive been busy so again sorry.

So the 4-5-1/4-3-3 hybrid. Im not going to call it either of these individual names because frankly, it isnt either. I use this tactic when the opposition plays one up front, giving me the free man in defence that I always like to keep. The instructions are the same as the first tactic high press cautious tackling mixed passing etc so im not going to run through all that again. What I will run through is the roles of the players.

Defence

So Ill start at the back, Sweeper Keeper is set up the same as when there are three at the back. To pick up any through balls that come over the top due to the very high line. The two DC's are both Ball Play Defenders. These are vital in making this tactic work, defenders who are almost midfielders, they can pick a pass, are composed on the ball yet still very strong defensively. The Full Backs are pretty standard, on automatic so they change depending on what strategy I am using, although one thing to note is that the DR is set up slightly more attacking due to the IF playing up ahead of him.

Midfield

In the midfield ive gone for a pretty bog standard Defensive Midfielder who I want to sit in that gap and break up attacks, I didnt use an Anchor man because I still want him to have some attacking threat and not just sit in that one spot all game. The DM is also the one of the only players in the team who has a zonal marking some of the time. I want him too break up anything that comes in his "zone". The only time he man marks is when faced with an AMC. The MCR/L are a Advanced Playmaker/Ball Winning Midfielder combo. One the playmaker one the destroyer, this is pretty standard. Although I have slightly changed the BWM closing down to stop him charging too far out of position

Attack

So in attack I went for an Inside forward and a Winger, This is simply just to provide two different options when going forward. One cuts inside and looks to shoot, the other stays out wide and whips balls into the box. There is no tactical voodoo involved in this just simply a different option. The striker is there to score goals plain and simple, goal scorer by name poacher by nature. He is set as the target man but depending on which striker im playing depends on whether it is "ball to feet" or "run onto ball", this depends on whether im playing strong good passing or a quick dribbler. Both work equally well, both provide goals.

So yeah thats that, finally finished. So can you all stop bugging me now to finish this

Any questions feel free to ask

[jonjonau]

Trying to implement a Beilsa like system with my Liverpool side in the first season, went with a high pressing 4-2-3-1 with an AP on the left and a winger on the right and also normal tackling, so far so good. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

*Note my system is similar to the OP's

[Sammie B]

what duties are the 2 ball playing defenders?

[jimbobBRFC]

what duties are the 2 ball playing defenders?

Both defend usually althouh sometimes I go stopper depending on how high I want them to press

[HELP ME WITH FM PLS]

hmmm the tactics so far in here aren't really proper Bielsa

AP--------CF---------AP both APs hugging touchline

----------AP------------

W(support)-------WM(D) both cut inside

----------DM-----------

--BPD----BPD----BPD---

---------GK------------

Will get your team playing a proper Bielsa style.

Dunno how to take screen shots so cant show other setups but tactic is working well and playing like Bielsa's chile. Quick tempo, high pressing.

Doesn't work if you don't have high work rate left and right midfielders with stamina

[jimbobBRFC]

hmmm the tactics so far in here aren't really proper Bielsa

AP--------CF---------AP both APs hugging touchline

----------AP------------

W(support)-------WM(D) both cut inside

----------DM-----------

--BPD----BPD----BPD---

---------GK------------

Will get your team playing a proper Bielsa style.

Dunno how to take screen shots so cant show other setups but tactic is working well and playing like Bielsa's chile. Quick tempo, high pressing.

Doesn't work if you don't have high work rate left and right midfielders with stamina

I do agree that may work better but playing your AML/R inline with the striker makes them completely disregard defensive duties and they are positioned too high up the pitch. Dropping them a little deeper makes them A) defend better B) brings them closer to the midfield to receive passes. Thats my take on it anyway.

[HELP ME WITH FM PLS]

good point about the attacking wingers, I should try that out!

[Sammie B]

Do you only play quick tempo with the 5-2-3 and not the 4-1-2-2-1 Jimbob

[jimbobBRFC]

Do you only play quick tempo with the 5-2-3 and not the 4-1-2-2-1 Jimbob

If thats what it shows on the screenshot thats a mistake haha. I play a quick tempo with both formations screenshot must of been when I was mid way through creating it.

[däkkä]

hmmm the tactics so far in here aren't really proper Bielsa

It's not about formation though.

This season he's usually played a 4-3-3 and not a back-three. Last night he ended the match with a 4-1-1-4.

----Llorente----Toquero-----

Ibai-----------------Susaeta

----------Muniain-----------

De Marcos-------------Iraola

----------Pérez-------------

---Amorebieta---Martínez---

----------Iraizoz------------

[jimbobBRFC]

It's not about formation though.

This season he's usually played a 4-3-3 and not a back-three. Last night he ended the match with a 4-1-1-4.

----Llorente----Toquero-----

Ibai-----------------Susaeta

----------Muniain-----------

De Marcos-------------Iraola

----------Pérez-------------

---Amorebieta---Martínez---

----------Iraizoz------------

Completely agree, its the Theory not the formation

[cressers]

cant find any thread on last night......is this appriopraite here

WHAT WENT WRONG LAST NIGHT....not jsu tot lsoe but to get beaten quite easily ?

[däkkä]

Atlético got an early lead. If Athletic got the first, it would've been a different game. 1-0 up, the Madrid team were happy to sit back, defend with two banks of four and very narrow. Athletic tried to play too much through the centre, committed a lot of players forward, but they couldn't get past Atlético's midfield, their passing was poor so in conclusion they left too much of space for Atlético to counter.

[enders357]

I've been using variations on the tactics in this thread (notably from the OP) and the similar 3CB option given with the Montpellier example to a fair level of success.

I've always used a normal GK option but am considering using a Sweeper Keeper instead. In years of playing FM I've never tried it out - is it risky? do you generally use it with a defend option? do you need a very specifically skilled keeper with it for it to be effective? I'm hoping the keeper will pick up a lot of the balls my going over or through my defence due to the high line they're holding.

[PeeKay]

I've been using variations on the tactics in this thread (notably from the OP) and the similar 3CB option given with the Montpellier example to a fair level of success.

I've always used a normal GK option but am considering using a Sweeper Keeper instead. In years of playing FM I've never tried it out - is it risky? do you generally use it with a defend option? do you need a very specifically skilled keeper with it for it to be effective? I'm hoping the keeper will pick up a lot of the balls my going over or through my defence due to the high line they're holding.

When are playing a flat defensive line then always go for a sweeper keeper but avoid using it when using a covering defender because that's what the covering defender does

All the risk is on the keeper and whether he has the skills, mental, as well as physical attributes but saying that if it fits your tactic then take the risk. Also you can try it first with the keeper set to Defend and then change it until you notice a difference. I play with a high D-line and have my keeper set to attack but he never comes out as often as I would like.

[jimbobBRFC]

When are playing a flat defensive line then always go for a sweeper keeper but avoid using it when using a covering defender because that's what the covering defender does

All the risk is on the keeper and whether he has the skills, mental, as well as physical attributes but saying that if it fits your tactic then take the risk. Also you can try it first with the keeper set to Defend and then change it until you notice a difference. I play with a high D-line and have my keeper set to attack but he never comes out as often as I would like.

They still dont come up as often as they could with SK Attack but I find they sweep up a lot more balls than they do when they are just standard keepers. I also find using a standard keeper they back off the ball sometimes which really bugs me. Havnt found a downside too Sweeper Keepers yet

[enders357]

Thanks, I'll give it a go with a defend option and see how it goes.

[Falahk]

They still dont come up as often as they could with SK Attack but I find they sweep up a lot more balls than they do when they are just standard keepers. I also find using a standard keeper they back off the ball sometimes which really bugs me. Havnt found a downside too Sweeper Keepers yet

the downside is that the attribute requirements are slightly different and a tad more demanding for a proper SK, so its harder to find a good one

but much like PeeKay says, if it suits your tactics then it could be worth it to take the risk, even if the attributes are not optimal

[enders357]

Has anyone else found these tactics hard to sustain over a season due to the intense physical demands on the players? I've had to send several players on holiday (some as early as December) and Muinian is now on his third holiday stint of the season and I'm only in late March.

[jimbobBRFC]

Has anyone else found these tactics hard to sustain over a season due to the intense physical demands on the players? I've had to send several players on holiday (some as early as December) and Muinian is now on his third holiday stint of the season and I'm only in late March.

I found it ok actually untill the last couple of days. I never had to send a player away on holiday anyway. It's all about the pre season, I work really hard on Aerobic and strength pre season to make sure they are unbelievabley fit

[gradyjsf10]

Im using the original bielsa tactics posted in the op, im playing as arsenal, the problem I am having is Im winning all my games at the emirates beating anyone, be it Man city or Wigan and dominating the games, then when we play away its the opposite, get dominated by wolves and stoke away and lose both, any ideas for making the tactic more solid on the road?

[jimbobBRFC]

Im using the original bielsa tactics posted in the op, im playing as arsenal, the problem I am having is Im winning all my games at the emirates beating anyone, be it Man city or Wigan and dominating the games, then when we play away its the opposite, get dominated by wolves and stoke away and lose both, any ideas for making the tactic more solid on the road?

Have a slightly different tactic. Teams at home will attack you more so you need to be a bit more conservative and try to counter them. Have a look at my two posts near bottom of the first page

[enders357]

I found it ok actually untill the last couple of days. I never had to send a player away on holiday anyway. It's all about the pre season, I work really hard on Aerobic and strength pre season to make sure they are unbelievabley fit

So conditioning training - or something bespoke but similar - for the whole of pre-season is advisable?

[jimbobBRFC]

So conditioning training - or something bespoke but similar - for the whole of pre-season is advisable?

It is something BEspoke. High strength and aerobic with a medium does of tactics and a slight little bit of ball control

[bakes106]

This tactic or theory worked well for in fm 2012, I've tried importing and recreating them with the creator in 13 but it doesnt seem to work as well. Has the ME changed that much?

[enders357]

I've also found it less successful on FM13, which is pretty disappointing. It was a lot of fun seeing them push and press so far up the pitch.

[ramie]

Could some re-up the SS of the tactic? It seems as if the pic has gone down

[jimbobBRFC]

Thinking of slowly morphing my Sheff Utd side to this style of football, already got the high attacking nature its just the high press man marking game I now need to implement.

Has anyone had any success with this style of tactic on FM13?

I was thinking of having two variations of the tactic, as I discussed somewhere in this thread.

One a

---DC--DC--DC---

WB------------WB

-----MC--MC-----

AMR----------AML

-------STC-------

and the other

--FB--DC--DC--DB--

------DM--DM------

--------------------

-AMR---AMC---AML-

--------STC--------

I think these two would give the best possible starting positions to implement the high press man marking game that Bielsa insists on.

Attacking Strategy

Fluid movement

Direct High Tempo Passing Football(Direct without being long ball)

High Press

Man Marking

They are the key ingredients Im going to try to implement.

So yeah any experience or advice anyone has in this years game of this tactic I'd love to hear from you

[Dexter_Morgan]

That's an interesting one jimbobBRFC

This is one I made up for my second season at Nacional, I think it's a bit more daring whilst staying in parts in line with Bielsa.

It's very early days yet and things I have to take in to consideration while I test this are:

1) The squad is still pretty much the same level as the rest of the top 6 sides in the division (this is obviously good as it'll give me an indication on how good the tactic is rather than just having better players who could beat anyone)

2) I've brought 3 new players in from different clubs and have promoted 5 youth players so they've got to gel properly yet (it's currently about half way on familiarity)

3) I've had a few players just coming back from injury so match fitness isn't all quite there with 5-6 players yet and that is showing later on in games.

So far in my 5 competitive games i've won 3, drew 2 lost 0. Goals for 14, goals against 6. So going forward it's a decent start but i'm still not sure on the defencive side yet because 4 of those against came in 2 games against Colo Colo. We're having between 15-20 shots per game and have had at least 60% of the ball on 4 occasions (55% on the other) so there is a lot of positives to be drawn so far.

I've got a few other ideas:

Tuck the wing backs to center backs.

Push either a CM or the DM up to AMC or a second striker.

The more courageous one is 2 CB's, 5 midfielders (with the 2 wide players being defencive wingers and an anchor man in there) and one of 2 AMC's and a striker or 1 AMC and 2 strikers. I am really tempted by a 2CB only formation of some kind but that may be best saved for another thread.

Anyway i'll see how the formation posted at the top goes over a course of 20-25 games and will come back with results ect;

[jimbobBRFC]

That's an interesting one jimbobBRFC

This is one I made up for my second season at Nacional, I think it's a bit more daring whilst staying in parts in line with Bielsa.

It's very early days yet and things I have to take in to consideration while I test this are:

1) The squad is still pretty much the same level as the rest of the top 6 sides in the division (this is obviously good as it'll give me an indication on how good the tactic is rather than just having better players who could beat anyone)

2) I've brought 3 new players in from different clubs and have promoted 5 youth players so they've got to gel properly yet (it's currently about half way on familiarity)

3) I've had a few players just coming back from injury so match fitness isn't all quite there with 5-6 players yet and that is showing later on in games.

So far in my 5 competitive games i've won 3, drew 2 lost 0. Goals for 14, goals against 6. So going forward it's a decent start but i'm still not sure on the defencive side yet because 4 of those against came in 2 games against Colo Colo. We're having between 15-20 shots per game and have had at least 60% of the ball on 4 occasions (55% on the other) so there is a lot of positives to be drawn so far.

I've got a few other ideas:

Tuck the wing backs to center backs.

Push either a CM or the DM up to AMC or a second striker.

The more courageous one is 2 CB's, 5 midfielders (with the 2 wide players being defencive wingers and an anchor man in there) and one of 2 AMC's and a striker or 1 AMC and 2 strikers. I am really tempted by a 2CB only formation of some kind but that may be best saved for another thread.

Anyway i'll see how the formation posted at the top goes over a course of 20-25 games and will come back with results ect;

That is quite possible one of the most gung-ho attacking formations I have ever seen on FM haha,. Be very interested to see how results come back, I think playing with 2DC's is probably a little two attacking.

Set out my two formations last night, I will get proper screenshots on here later tonight although there are photos on my Twitter page if your interested.

[Dexter_Morgan]

I had some decent results with it but drew quite a few silly games so will work a few tweaks, one idea is to have 3CB's and keep the rest of the shape. Possibly change one CB to a sweeper/libero and set the instructions for the other 2 CB's to hug touchline (not sure if FM would implement that but worth a go)

I'll have a look at your twitter in a while mate and get back to you on it, maybe I can even nick an idea or 2 of you

[enders357]

When Bielsa plays a 3-3-1-3 I interpret it to be:

--------SK--------

----CD-CD-CD-----

WB----DM------WB

-------AM---------

W------CF-------W

In reall life the wing backs make diagonal runs to support the midfield centrally, rather than down the line (where the wingers hold wide and try to break in behind the full back - where a lot of diagonal balls are aimed).

Has anyone been able to recreate this WB movement in FM13? I haven't, and it's frustrating as this tactic doesn't really work otherwise. Without those runs you're left short in midfield and overloaded on the flanks.

[poobington]

When Bielsa plays a 3-3-1-3 I interpret it to be:

--------SK--------

----CD-CD-CD-----

WB----DM------WB

-------AM---------

W------CF-------W

In reall life the wing backs make diagonal runs to support the midfield centrally, rather than down the line (where the wingers hold wide and try to break in behind the full back - where a lot of diagonal balls are aimed).

Has anyone been able to recreate this WB movement in FM13? I haven't, and it's frustrating as this tactic doesn't really work otherwise. Without those runs you're left short in midfield and overloaded on the flanks.

This article on Inverse fullbacks seems to replicate the movement you speak of. http://footballmanagerveteran.wordpress.com/2013/03/14/using-space-the-inverse-wingback-by-eds/

[Falahk]

When Bielsa plays a 3-3-1-3 I interpret it to be:

--------SK--------

----CD-CD-CD-----

WB----DM------WB

-------AM---------

W------CF-------W

In reall life the wing backs make diagonal runs to support the midfield centrally, rather than down the line (where the wingers hold wide and try to break in behind the full back - where a lot of diagonal balls are aimed).

Has anyone been able to recreate this WB movement in FM13? I haven't, and it's frustrating as this tactic doesn't really work otherwise. Without those runs you're left short in midfield and overloaded on the flanks.

have you tried using a right footed WBL and a left footed WBR and toyed with cut inside instructions on them?

[enders357]

A good idea just to see it in practice but I'm not overly keen on playing full-backs/wing-backs on their "wrong" side. I can't see any other way to achive this though.

[bakes106]

i made a pretty good bielsa tactic in fm12, which was very successful with athletic. But trying it in again on fm13 with everton and got belted 6-0 by southampton at home and 5-2 by fulham, also got knocked out of the league cup by doncaster on penalties

has the man marking changed this version?? as last year i would man mark everyone on the field except the 2 cbs who would be zonal marked by my striker, but if i'm in possession and lose it in there half, my players wont go find there players again, also my cb marking the strikers will follow them tightly then just drop off and forget about them

anyway ideas fellas

ps i do play with a spare cb at the back too