Ever made a successful 4-2-3-1?

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

I can set up a rock solid 4-4-2, a pretty darned sturdy 4-5-1, or a 4-3-3 that looks and plays as smooth as cream cheese on velvet, but I can't seem to make a 4-2-3-1 that works. They always turn out leaky as a paper submarine, far too top-heavy, and the AMC tends to run around like a headless chicken way too much, wearing himself out in the process.

Still, since it's apparently the world's most popular formation these days, it must be possible to crack it. Anyone got any tips?

[Cleon]

Which 4-2-3-1 are you on about? Theres several differnt versions of them. The most stable is the 4-2-3-1 deep(Denmark) one due to the use of two DMC's.

How about you tell us what settings you've used and tried already?

How where the goals been scored past you? Was it set pieces? Counter attacks? Players getting caught out of position?

Did you use the analysis tab to check what was wrong? Do you watch any games on full to understand what the issues were?

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

I've mostly been using a set-up with one advanced forward, two inside forwards and an advanced playmaker. I've tried wing backs as well as full backs, and a deep variant with two DM's well as a regular version with two MC's.

First problem: The AMC, usually played as a playmaker. He gets low ratings, and doesn't seem to get involved enough in play. Also, his condition always drops way too much during a game.

Second problem: I concede way too many goals! It seems that I'm giving away far too much space towards the back and in midfield, with my attacking players all getting crammed together too far up on the pitch, and the opposition knocking through balls in behind my defense, mostly from centre midfield.

[PenS66]

I've won the title with Liverpool in the first season usually using this tactic and this first XI.

As for individual player instructions: I only changed long shots to rarely for all players, that's all.

http://s7.directupload.net/images/120222/4lp4it5e.jpg

It's not a "true" 4231 tactic but could be considered as one.

It was pretty stable and I actually switched back to this tactic during the season when some attempts to change my approach failed miserably. I had a record of 24 wins, 8 draws and 6 losses in the Premiership (73-33 goals).

Maybe it is something for you to build on.

[Cleon]

I've mostly been using a set-up with one advanced forward, two inside forwards and an advanced playmaker. I've tried wing backs as well as full backs, and a deep variant with two DM's well as a regular version with two MC's.

The striker isn't really a problem from this set up but the use of a AMC playmaker and 2 inside forwards can be. All 3 of them are in the centre of the pitch and occupying simliar space to each other.

First problem: The AMC, usually played as a playmaker. He gets low ratings, and doesn't seem to get involved enough in play. Also, his condition always drops way too much during a game.

Low ratings could be a knock on effect from using 2 inside forwards.

What settings have you used for the AMC as I can't understand why his condition would be very low, unless he has low natural fitness and stamina? Or you're playing high tempo, attacking and asking him to close down too much?

Second problem: I concede way too many goals! It seems that I'm giving away far too much space towards the back and in midfield, with my attacking players all getting crammed together too far up on the pitch, and the opposition knocking through balls in behind my defense, mostly from centre midfield.

I understand what you're saying but without actually knowing the instructions and tactic settings you've used no-one can offer you any real advice. I'm not been an arse I'm actually trying to help you here. But in order to do that you're going to need to help yourself and start talking about the actual details of what you've used/using etc.

You never answered if you used MC's or DMC's.

What sort of marking and closing down do the defence use? Is the d-line pushed up?

[furiousuk]

This thread here is the best one I've seen and focusses on this formation (with 2 x MC's).

There's been a bit of discussion recently about the gap that can occur between MC's and CB's but the author of the linked thread addresses this by ensuring that his MC's sit back and aren't encouraged forward much at all. This has 2 benefits - firstly they can sit and watch the movement of the players in front and then pick good balls forward (if not then they have each other and the FB's as outlets if a forward ball isn't on). The 2nd benefit is that they provide a defensive screen that shields the back 4 and creates a defensive box between MC's and CB's that is difficult to penetrate.

It is getting those midfielders absolutely correct that I think is crucial in this formation. If either of them strays in higher up the pitch than their opponent (watch PPM's here as the 'Gets Forward Often' PPM can kill this formation) then you're potentially stuffed, they need to stay goal side in order to defend properly and they need to hold their position as much as possible.

I have a quick example using a similar formation (sorry the screenie is larger than it needs to be, it's one I had kicking around but its relevant here)

In each of the screenshots I've highlighted (in blue) how my MC's retain their position in the middle of the pitch and stay deeper than their opposition MC's. If the opposition had recovered the ball at any point during this move then I'm still in a position to defend any counter.

[James9]

This thread here is the best one I've seen and focusses on this formation (with 2 x MC's).

There's been a bit of discussion recently about the gap that can occur between MC's and CB's but the author of the linked thread addresses this by ensuring that his MC's sit back and aren't encouraged forward much at all. This has 2 benefits - firstly they can sit and watch the movement of the players in front and then pick good balls forward (if not then they have each other and the FB's as outlets if a forward ball isn't on). The 2nd benefit is that they provide a defensive screen that shields the back 4 and creates a defensive box between MC's and CB's that is difficult to penetrate.

It is getting those midfielders absolutely correct that I think is crucial in this formation. If either of them strays in higher up the pitch than their opponent (watch PPM's here as the 'Gets Forward Often' PPM can kill this formation) then you're potentially stuffed, they need to stay goal side in order to defend properly and they need to hold their position as much as possible.

I have a quick example using a similar formation (sorry the screenie is larger than it needs to be, it's one I had kicking around but its relevant here)

In each of the screenshots I've highlighted (in blue) how my MC's retain their position in the middle of the pitch and stay deeper than their opposition MC's. If the opposition had recovered the ball at any point during this move then I'm still in a position to defend any counter.

Furiousuk I have tried to work out what role the author of the thread is using. From reading what you said it seems that they are both playing has deep lying playmakers with support duty. But they might also be playing has advance playmakers or central midfielder support. Could you help me with this because I do not really know what role and duty to give my dual CM

[furiousuk]

Furiousuk I have tried to work out what role the author of the thread is using. From reading what you said it seems that they are both playing has deep lying playmakers with support duty. But they might also be playing has advance playmakers or central midfielder support. Could you help me with this because I do not really know what role and duty to give my dual CM

For most set-ups they are DLPs, probably on a defend duty to get them to drop deeper. I think the problem is that a defend duty also restricts them in other ways (I'm not sure though as I can't remember the exact settings).

I think it's a really really difficult formation to get right and you can see from the link how much effort SFraser went to in order to set players up how he wanted them to play (he also managed to link everything up so that some the shouts worked as he wanted them but that's an additional operand of his system).

The key to a lot of systems is mentality structure. I use a tactic very similar to SFraser's so I have some 1st hand experience with that type of play. Although the system uses a balanced philosophy it is, when you look at the mentalities, a very fluid system with MC's slightly lower and CB's lower again. This means that the four attackers move around as a unit. The FB's share the same global mentality but they are formationally very different so it equates to a support role for them (although they will get forward on occasion). The MC's, with a lower mentality, sit deeper than the global mentality which allows them to screen. The CB's, with a lower again mentality, sit deeper too as a standard DC would.

Without going to the level of tweaks SFraser does you'd probably have to use defend or support mentality with DLPs. I think, from memory, DLP's have forward runs set to rare and a slightly lower mentality to encourage them deeper anyway. You'd have to play with defend or support mentalities to see how it works.

This formation tends to play well with a control strategy or 'pushing up higher' as this helps to limit the gap between MC's and CB's but this is secondary to getting your MC's to remain goal side (your goal-side that is) of their opponent - a step I think is critical to a solid defence.

In the example I posted my system is a 4222 (MCs, AMCs, FCs) rather than a 4231 but philosophically it's fairly similar (with 4 out-and-out attackers, 2 screening dlp's, 2 supporting full backs and 2 solid defenders). They are set up as DLP's with just one minor tweak (to through balls for one of them), I think they are probably on a defend duty.

Here's a screenie of the mentality structure.

As you can see, the 2 midfielders (Sandro & Batata) have a lower mentality than everyone else which helps to keep them from straying too far forward (run from deep is set to low as well which is pretty important).

Player selection is absolutely (as in, totally absolutely) crucial when I'm using this system (it's only marginally less important in SFraser's 4231). I absolutely must play defensive minded midfielders or deep playmaker types (someone like Pirlo or maybe Xabi Alonso, maybe even Carrick), i.e. someone who doesn't need to venture forward to play well. Someone like Lampard or Gerrard would simply destroy my system because, although they have the mental and technical ability to play the role, their natural game sees them move forward and be more directly attacking. Kills this system.

I think, from memory, SFraser used Sandro & Carrick and had purchased a couple of playmaking regens. Again, personnel is super important.

[James9]

For most set-ups they are DLPs, probably on a defend duty to get them to drop deeper. I think the problem is that a defend duty also restricts them in other ways (I'm not sure though as I can't remember the exact settings).

I think it's a really really difficult formation to get right and you can see from the link how much effort SFraser went to in order to set players up how he wanted them to play (he also managed to link everything up so that some the shouts worked as he wanted them but that's an additional operand of his system).

The key to a lot of systems is mentality structure. I use a tactic very similar to SFraser's so I have some 1st hand experience with that type of play. Although the system uses a balanced philosophy it is, when you look at the mentalities, a very fluid system with MC's slightly lower and CB's lower again. This means that the four attackers move around as a unit. The FB's share the same global mentality but they are formationally very different so it equates to a support role for them (although they will get forward on occasion). The MC's, with a lower mentality, sit deeper than the global mentality which allows them to screen. The CB's, with a lower again mentality, sit deeper too as a standard DC would.

Without going to the level of tweaks SFraser does you'd probably have to use defend or support mentality with DLPs. I think, from memory, DLP's have forward runs set to rare and a slightly lower mentality to encourage them deeper anyway. You'd have to play with defend or support mentalities to see how it works.

This formation tends to play well with a control strategy or 'pushing up higher' as this helps to limit the gap between MC's and CB's but this is secondary to getting your MC's to remain goal side (your goal-side that is) of their opponent - a step I think is critical to a solid defence.

In the example I posted my system is a 4222 (MCs, AMCs, FCs) rather than a 4231 but philosophically it's fairly similar (with 4 out-and-out attackers, 2 screening dlp's, 2 supporting full backs and 2 solid defenders). They are set up as DLP's with just one minor tweak (to through balls for one of them), I think they are probably on a defend duty.

Here's a screenie of the mentality structure.

As you can see, the 2 midfielders (Sandro & Batata) have a lower mentality than everyone else which helps to keep them from straying too far forward (run from deep is set to low as well which is pretty important).

Player selection is absolutely (as in, totally absolutely) crucial when I'm using this system (it's only marginally less important in SFraser's 4231). I absolutely must play defensive minded midfielders or deep playmaker types (someone like Pirlo or maybe Xabi Alonso, maybe even Carrick), i.e. someone who doesn't need to venture forward to play well. Someone like Lampard or Gerrard would simply destroy my system because, although they have the mental and technical ability to play the role, their natural game sees them move forward and be more directly attacking. Kills this system.

I think, from memory, SFraser used Sandro & Carrick and had purchased a couple of playmaking regens. Again, personnel is super important.

Thanks for that mate. Could you let me know how to find your 4222 formation. Also would you recommend playing Arteta and Song has DLP with support or defend duty

[furiousuk]

This thread has more info on my slightly crazy 4222. There's some more examples if you scroll down a bit.

As for support or defend, just have a go and see what you like. It'll depend on how it works with the rest of your instructions. So long as either player doesn't venture too far forward you should have some defensive stability with CB,CB,MC,MC box. An opposition AMC who sits in the hole can cause you problems though.

[James9]

This thread has more info on my slightly crazy 4222. There's some more examples if you scroll down a bit.

As for support or defend, just have a go and see what you like. It'll depend on how it works with the rest of your instructions. So long as either player doesn't venture too far forward you should have some defensive stability with CB,CB,MC,MC box. An opposition AMC who sits in the hole can cause you problems though.

Is there anyway to deal with the AMC in the hole. Should i man mark the AMC with one of my MC

[llama3]

if you have DLP's in this system their passes often bypass the AMC, hence the low ratings. Go for more basic central midfielder roles for better involvement.

[furiousuk]

Is there anyway to deal with the AMC in the hole. Should i man mark the AMC with one of my MC

Yeah you could try that but it tends to break the nice box shape. Similarly, closing him down too much means you'll leave a gap at the back. Pushing up higher and cramping his space is a good ploy but it depends how else the opposition are playing as pushing up may play into their hands and give them an even better weapon to hurt you with.

I'll normally play a nice 433/451 and have a DM to handle him! There's nothing wrong with changing formations to negate an inherent weakness the opposition is exploiting!

[ShirazS]

Try using the default setup and see how it works for you. I actually found it to work really well.

There is no default setup for the Wide 4-2-3-1 with MC's but if you select "Set to Formation" and choose 4-2-3-1 Deep, then move the DMC's to MC and make them both CM - Support, it works really well. The default setups are actually quite effective and well thought-out

You could also try some of the setups mentioned here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292631-Setting-up-a-4-2-3-1

[Coentrao]

I'm playing currently with a deep 4231, balanced philosophy:

Full Back:Automatic

Central Defender:Cover

Central Defender:Stopper

Wingback:Attack

Defensive Midfielder: Defend

Deep Lying Playmaker:Support

Inside Forward:Attack

Advanced Playmaker:Support

Winger:Attack

Advanced Forward:Attack

I'm not really happy with the contribution of the AMC and Striker, i used to have the AMC as an attacking midfielder on Support but he wasn't really contributing that much so i'm trying now with an advanced playmaker to get him more involved, i also tweaked the advanced forward run with ball to sometimes, the left wingback overlaps the inside forward that cuts inside.

I'm not doing bad but could be doing better, i have one amazing AMC and i'm not really getting the best of him though i only changed to an advanced playmaker recently so i'll give it some time to see if it works.

[Bruce Drundrige]

Yes! Love the 4-2-3-1 and really happy I’ve been able to get it working on FM12 after a bit of trial and error and frustration on FM11. I’ve made two so far, one with Fortuna Dusseldorf to win Bundesliga 2, was offered Bayern Munich job, accepted, and now rattling in goals with an adapted version of the formation (including a 1-8 victory at PSV)…

(Both tactics have been tweaked according to the players of course)

Dusseldorf setup

Standard / Rigid at home with Zonal Marking and More Pressing, everything else default

Counter / Rigid away with Zonal Marketing everything else default

Sweeper Keeper (Defend)

LB - Wingback support

RB – Wingback Support / attack

CD (both) – Central Defender, Defend.

CM® – Central Mid (D)

CM(l) – DLP (S)

AMR – Inside Fwd (S)

AMC – AdvPl (s) – could never quite get this position working as well as I would have liked

AML – Winger (A)

SC – Adv Fwd (A)

This really worked because I had a very good Adv Fwd but it was solid throughout and I won the league comfortably with a decent but limited side.

Bayern Munich – for this formation I’ve tailored it to the player’s ‘best’ position based on the coach report

Control / Rigid at home with Zonal Marking and More Pressing, everything else default

Standard / Rigid away with Zonal Marketing and More Pressing ,everything else default

Sweeper Keeper (Defend)

LB - Wingback support

RB – Wingback Attack (Lahm)

CDr – Central Defender, Defend.

CDr – Stopper, Defend.

CM® – DLP (S) (Schweinsteiger)

CM(l) – DLP (S)(Kroos)

AMR – Winger (A) (set to swap position with AML)

AMC – Att Mid (A) (Muller)

AML – Winger (A)

SC – TM (A) if Gomez, Poacher (A) if Balotelli

Wingers rotated between Robben, Ribery and Piatti, and we’re scoring goals for fun…

[dz47]

I'm still on FM11 myself, but have pretty much given up on the 4231 playing as Arsenal. I just can never seem to get Fabregas to play well as the AMC no matter what I try, he just can't seem to get involved as he's either marked out by a dm, or bypassed by the mc's/dm's and by the wide forwards/wingers. I'm sure there are probably other things I could try, but it does seem to be a hard formation to get working well.

[llama3]

if your central midfielders have a shorter passing range this will stop fabregas being bypassed!

[dz47]

I have tried that, and generally if I am playing with Cesc as the AM in the 4231 then I'm using dm's with short-ish passing, or a combination of DM and DLP support. hasn't seemed to have made too much difference to how involved Cesc gets.

[llama3]

advanced playmaker support and central midfielder defend would do the job

[Cleon]

I have tried that, and generally if I am playing with Cesc as the AM in the 4231 then I'm using dm's with short-ish passing, or a combination of DM and DLP support. hasn't seemed to have made too much difference to how involved Cesc gets.

If the passing length is too short they won't be able to pass to Cesc if he's too far advanced.

[Blinkenlights Faxlore]

What do you guys think about playing inside forwards as "opposite-side-footed" vs "same-side-footed"? Supposedly the role works best with right-footed players on the left and vice versa, but I actually seem to have my team play better sometimes with lefties on the left and nighties on the right. With opposite-footed players, they often cut inside very far down on the pitch and start dribbling towards the center, getting into my AMC's way. Same-side-footed players still cut in towards the goal and score a lot, but they tend to cut in from further up, they play wider, and they also choose to play more crosses. I find that this actually works well a lot of the time.

I'm starting to think of it as there being three different types of AMR / AML: The classic winger (same-footed players with winger role), the wide striker (opposite-footed player with inside forward role) and a kind of "combination winger", who goes for goal a lot but does so from further up and wider out, and plays more crosses (same-footed player with inside forward role). Does this make any sense in real life football terms at all? I'm sad to say that I don't know real life football well enough to tell.

Then again, I also have a two-footed player with a lot of flair in my team, who is good at both crossing and finishing... I'm not sure what to call him (besides "absolute monster").

[furiousuk]

What do you guys think about playing inside forwards as "opposite-side-footed" vs "same-side-footed"?

Depends what you're after. I normally go opposite-footed as I like them dribbling right into the middle of the pitch but, then again, I usually play a 433/451 so there's room, I'll agree it is less effective with an AMC in there, unless, of course, the AMC is bombing forward anyway (or encouraged very deep I suppose).

My right footer on the right is doing fantastically as an IF and he stays that bit wider which means he crosses more often than my lefty out there which gives me a whole different flavour to my team without touching the tactics (similar for my lefty on the left). What I will say is that a righty on the right (or lefty on the left) will need more technique when shooting for goal as the angle is more acute for them, particularly as they may have got a shooting opportunity without fully beating their man which means they'll be under pressure (an opposite footer almost needs to beat their man because as they open up to shoot the defender will naturally block their shooting angle which isn't always so for an outside footer).

[llama3]

i tend to have 1 and 1 - i.e. 2 right footers, so i have an opposite on the left flank, and a bit more natural width on the right flank

[James9]

Depends what you're after. I normally go opposite-footed as I like them dribbling right into the middle of the pitch but, then again, I usually play a 433/451 so there's room, I'll agree it is less effective with an AMC in there, unless, of course, the AMC is bombing forward anyway (or encouraged very deep I suppose).

My right footer on the right is doing fantastically as an IF and he stays that bit wider which means he crosses more often than my lefty out there which gives me a whole different flavour to my team without touching the tactics (similar for my lefty on the left). What I will say is that a righty on the right (or lefty on the left) will need more technique when shooting for goal as the angle is more acute for them, particularly as they may have got a shooting opportunity without fully beating their man which means they'll be under pressure (an opposite footer almost needs to beat their man because as they open up to shoot the defender will naturally block their shooting angle which isn't always so for an outside footer).

Furiosuk how do you have your midfield three set up in the 433/451 formation. I am struggling with what roles on duties to give the players - my midfield three are Song Arteta, Ramsey and Wilshere (when re returns from injury) I have always had a problem with setting up a productive midfield three in the 433/451 formation so if you can help me that would be great. Also I am little bit confused on role and duty for my strikers. I have Van Persie and I am considering buying Sedyou Doumbia or Leandro Damiao. I have also recently bought a very good young striker called Niang. The problem I am getting is getting the midfield to link with the lone striker.

[dieu]

but I actually seem to have my team play better sometimes with lefties on the left and nighties on the right. .

I actually prefer nighties on the floor

[Cleon]

I actually prefer nighties on the floor

Perv:thdn:

[dieu]

Hey! Someone had to say it! I just took the bullet

[llama3]

let other people take the bullet

[furiousuk]

Furiosuk how do you have your midfield three set up in the 433/451 formation. I am struggling with what roles on duties to give the players - my midfield three are Song Arteta, Ramsey and Wilshere (when re returns from injury) I have always had a problem with setting up a productive midfield three in the 433/451 formation so if you can help me that would be great. Also I am little bit confused on role and duty for my strikers. I have Van Persie and I am considering buying Sedyou Doumbia or Leandro Damiao. I have also recently bought a very good young striker called Niang. The problem I am getting is getting the midfield to link with the lone striker.

Pretty standard really, Def.Mid(Def) at DM, Adv.PMs(Supp) at MCr and MCl. I normally have an industrious box-to-box type (Sandro, possibly Shelvey) at MCr and a more creative chap at MCl (Kovacic, Shelvey, Wilshere) although sometimes I'll have 2 hard workers, sometimes 2 creative. My wingers are IF-Att and my FC is a CF-Att (CF gives him roaming which means he'll drop on occasion, RvP is a better playmaker than my guy so he'll drop more often than my chap). I use lots of creative freedom and more roaming (does nothing with the roles I've selected) so everything is really pretty standard.

I'd imagine DM, DLP, APM would work well too with Arteta at DLP and Wilshere at APM. Ramsey could force himself ahead of either of them. (caveat, I play lower leagues when I start - and I started in FM2011! - so I'm guessing at the attributes of the players at the start of FM12)

Then it's just a matter of getting your shouts right for the situation and all should be rosy (you'll need more players though!)

[lam]

TLDR;

Wasn't this SFrasers favourite formation???? If so, there is a metric TON of great information to be found in his threads.

LAM

[Cleon]

TLDR;

Wasn't this SFrasers favourite formation???? If so, there is a metric TON of great information to be found in his threads.

LAM

Yes it was one of them

[James9]

Pretty standard really, Def.Mid(Def) at DM, Adv.PMs(Supp) at MCr and MCl. I normally have an industrious box-to-box type (Sandro, possibly Shelvey) at MCr and a more creative chap at MCl (Kovacic, Shelvey, Wilshere) although sometimes I'll have 2 hard workers, sometimes 2 creative. My wingers are IF-Att and my FC is a CF-Att (CF gives him roaming which means he'll drop on occasion, RvP is a better playmaker than my guy so he'll drop more often than my chap). I use lots of creative freedom and more roaming (does nothing with the roles I've selected) so everything is really pretty standard.

I'd imagine DM, DLP, APM would work well too with Arteta at DLP and Wilshere at APM. Ramsey could force himself ahead of either of them. (caveat, I play lower leagues when I start - and I started in FM2011! - so I'm guessing at the attributes of the players at the start of FM12)

Then it's just a matter of getting your shouts right for the situation and all should be rosy (you'll need more players though!)

I ideally want a midfielder bombing on from midfielde and scoring goals like lampard did for Chelsea in the mourhino years. How can I achieve this and what are the best players to buy for this tactic.

[Bruce Drundrige]

James9 Lampard played in the Mourinho 4-3-3 though, not a 4-2-3-1, and exploited the space behind the main striker. In a 4-2-3-1 there will be someone in his way if you play him as a MC...

[llama3]

thing is guys a 4-2-3-1 and for that matter a 4-5-1 can be set up in so many different ways, with so many different styles its just not a case of saying how do i make it work - its a case of saying how you want the style you are after to work. do you like counter-attacking or do you like controlled build-up - cos they require very different set ups

[Coentrao]

After reading this and a couple of other threads i now changed a few things, i have a poacher upfront with an advanced playmaker on support behind him, the right winger on support and an inside forward on attack on the left side and the results improved a lot.

Just one question about the inside forward, i struggle to get them to work properly unless they are at least reasonable with the weakest foot, the ones that are heavily one footed(or just "weak" on their weaker foot) are nearly useless, they'll often get to the byline and hesitate ending up losing the ball cheaply, they'll take the wildest shots with their weaker foot that will just go miles wide.

Anyone else have this issue or it's just me? The difference of production on my inside forwards is astonishing though the one that is heavily one footed has arguably better attributes.

[Cleon]

Just one question about the inside forward, i struggle to get them to work properly unless they are at least reasonable with the weakest foot, the ones that are heavily one footed(or just "weak" on their weaker foot) are nearly useless, they'll often get to the byline and hesitate ending up losing the ball cheaply, they'll take the wildest shots with their weaker foot that will just go miles wide.

Your inside forwards go to byline often? That shouldn't be happening too often in all honesty. The whole point is for them to cut inside before they even get to the byline. So I'm wondering, do they have PPM's? Or do they have really attacking mentality and what's the creative freedom like? I have no issues with inside forwards at any level really and they normally end up scoring more than my strikers due to how I play.

If they're taking wild shots it could be a tempo or creative freedom issue. It could also be due to the player not having a passing option in front of him so he's been forced to shoot as he has no support around him.

Also maybe the defenders are forcing him on the weaker foot?

[Romanista1994]

Furiousuk I have tried to work out what role the author of the thread is using. From reading what you said it seems that they are both playing has deep lying playmakers with support duty. But they might also be playing has advance playmakers or central midfielder support. Could you help me with this because I do not really know what role and duty to give my dual CM

SFraser used Box to Box midfielders on support. I managed to recreate the exact tactic that he used on FM10. The individual instructions are almost all changed, but you can see they are Box to Box midfielders from the Closing Down, Creative Freedom and Passing sliders.

[Coentrao]

Your inside forwards go to byline often? That shouldn't be happening too often in all honesty. The whole point is for them to cut inside before they even get to the byline. So I'm wondering, do they have PPM's? Or do they have really attacking mentality and what's the creative freedom like? I have no issues with inside forwards at any level really and they normally end up scoring more than my strikers due to how I play.

If they're taking wild shots it could be a tempo or creative freedom issue. It could also be due to the player not having a passing option in front of him so he's been forced to shoot as he has no support around him.

Also maybe the defenders are forcing him on the weaker foot?

One of them only has the PPM's "Plays one-twos" and "Places shots" the other one doesn't have any PPM's.

I'm using them on attacking duty, i use the TC and don't tweak almost anything so their mentality will depend on the strategy that i'm using, i'll generally go control on home against weaker teams and standard or counter when playing against strong teams(specially away), the creative freedom is on the first notch of "much" so it's at 13.

Here's a screenie with the settings on standard strategy which is what i play most of the time:

They have a wingback on attack on that flank so they generally get support on that side, though now that i'm thinking i use the shout "work ball into the box" a lot which reduces the long shots so it could be causing that strange behavior of them getting to the byline a lot instead of cutting inside and having a shot.

Haven't really noticed about the defenders forcing them on the weaker foot to be honest, i'll try to pay more attention to that detail.

Thank you for the reply.

[Cleon]

One of them only has the PPM's "Plays one-twos" and "Places shots" the other one doesn't have any PPM's.

I'm using them on attacking duty, i use the TC and don't tweak almost anything so their mentality will depend on the strategy that i'm using, i'll generally go control on home against

So we've ruled out PPM's then

How far up do they actually position during a game? Is it really advanced when you're attacking? Maybe it's too advanced for them to cut inside and be effective from lower down.

Although I actually think it might be a knock on effect from your AMC. If he's occupying the centre and drifting then he might be forcing the inside forward to stay out wide, as there is no space for him to exploit due to the AMC. have you had a look at the analysis tab to see if this is the issue?

[furiousuk]

SFraser used Box to Box midfielders on support. I managed to recreate the exact tactic that he used on FM10. The individual instructions are almost all changed, but you can see they are Box to Box midfielders from the Closing Down, Creative Freedom and Passing sliders.

Is that for a 4-3-3?

The closest approximation to the SFraser CM's in 4231 (according to Meet The System) is deep-lying playmaker / support.

[Coentrao]

So we've ruled out PPM's then

How far up do they actually position during a game? Is it really advanced when you're attacking? Maybe it's too advanced for them to cut inside and be effective from lower down.

Although I actually think it might be a knock on effect from your AMC. If he's occupying the centre and drifting then he might be forcing the inside forward to stay out wide, as there is no space for him to exploit due to the AMC. have you had a look at the analysis tab to see if this is the issue?

I think it's probably that, against weaker teams when i have a more aggressive mentality they'll be really high up the pitch and will go to the byline instead of cutting inside to stop that i would probably need to change mentality or runs from deep? I could change to a support role but then maybe i would have too many support roles on the pitch and nobody making runs upfront.

The AMC doesn't get in the way now that he's an advanced playmaker i think, he'll stay a little deeper and won't make many runs on the box so i don't think he is denying him space to cut inside though what i would need to check on the analysis tab, the average position? I'll take a look on the next few matches.

Could always drop him to the MC position , but then he would probably be occupying the same space of my defensive midfielder.

Thank you again

[Cleon]

I think it's probably that, against weaker teams when i have a more aggressive mentality they'll be really high up the pitch and will go to the byline instead of cutting inside to stop that i would probably need to change mentality or runs from deep? I could change to a support role but then maybe i would have too many support roles on the pitch and nobody making runs upfront.

The AMC doesn't get in the way now that he's an advanced playmaker i think, he'll stay a little deeper and won't make many runs on the box so i don't think he is denying him space to cut inside though what i would need to check on the analysis tab, the average position? I'll take a look on the next few matches.

Could always drop him to the MC position , but then he would probably be occupying the same space of my defensive midfielder.

Thank you again

It could be the agressive nature but I play very attacking myself and it works for me and he still cuts inside. That's why I thought it might have been a AMC issue. You could look at their passing during a game to see what kind of areas the inside forward and AMC are occupying just so you know and can rule it out.

[Romanista1994]

Is that for a 4-3-3?

The closest approximation to the SFraser CM's in 4231 (according to Meet The System) is deep-lying playmaker / support.

No, it's definitely box to box midfielders in his Meet the System formation. When I recreated it I tried every role and duty for the midfielders and the one that fit the arrangement of mentality, creative freedom, passing style and closing down perfectly was Box to Box midfielder/support. If you look at his screenshots and try it (unless the role has changed for FM11/12, I did it in FM10) then you'll see that that role and duty matches up perfectly with what he had.

[furiousuk]

No, it's definitely box to box midfielders in his Meet the System formation. When I recreated it I tried every role and duty for the midfielders and the one that fit the arrangement of mentality, creative freedom, passing style and closing down perfectly was Box to Box midfielder/support. If you look at his screenshots and try it (unless the role has changed for FM11/12, I did it in FM10) then you'll see that that role and duty matches up perfectly with what he had.

I'm using FM11 so possibly things have changed (didn't play FM10) but...

One of SFraser's main points about defending with this formation is shape, in particular, the box shape created by CB,CB,MC,MC. If any of those players deviates away from shape then you're potentially in trouble, if they do it often then you're definitely in trouble. A B2B midfielder has Run From Deep set to normal which means they'll move away from shape fairly regularly. Deep-lying playmakers have it set to rare so they hold shape (although they are different from SFraser MC's, particularly in mentality). Look at Meet The System, quite clearly his MC's Run From Deep instructions are on rare. Whilst the usage instructions can change, the run from deep and mentality are absolutely crucial for maintaining shape. A B2B, with his tendencies to move forward, won't sit and hold shape (providing a defensive screen).

[Coentrao]

It could be the agressive nature but I play very attacking myself and it works for me and he still cuts inside. That's why I thought it might have been a AMC issue. You could look at their passing during a game to see what kind of areas the inside forward and AMC are occupying just so you know and can rule it out.

He probably knows he's being watched since he went on to have a great match with two goals and two assists though to be fair Liverpool are terrible at the moment in my game.

Really think it might be the strategy in my case i was playing away so i only used standard and counter for most of the match and he really didn't went wide since he had so much space to run from what i could see he didn't get into the same space as the AMC, i might need a slightly different approach on matches where i'm more aggressive.

http://i.imgur.com/7cNq1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/586Iu.jpg

Looking at the heat map it looks that they maybe get in the same positions rarely sometimes though.

I just remembered that i set tight marking on their full backs to help with the tracking back of my AML/R i don't know if it's causing any problems.

[Romanista1994]

I'm using FM11 so possibly things have changed (didn't play FM10) but...

One of SFraser's main points about defending with this formation is shape, in particular, the box shape created by CB,CB,MC,MC. If any of those players deviates away from shape then you're potentially in trouble, if they do it often then you're definitely in trouble. A B2B midfielder has Run From Deep set to normal which means they'll move away from shape fairly regularly. Deep-lying playmakers have it set to rare so they hold shape (although they are different from SFraser MC's, particularly in mentality). Look at Meet The System, quite clearly his MC's Run From Deep instructions are on rare. Whilst the usage instructions can change, the run from deep and mentality are absolutely crucial for maintaining shape. A B2B, with his tendencies to move forward, won't sit and hold shape (providing a defensive screen).

Yes, but he manually changed all the instructions like run with ball, run from deep, crossing and long shots. While the DLP doesn't fit the mentality, closing down, passing and CF framework the B2B fits it perfectly. The other instructions are changed manually so that the player stays deep and plays throughballs. This was because he wanted the precise instructions of his players to remain the same under all circumstances, but at the same time to be able to change the shape of the entire team with shouts.

[Cleon]

SFrazer used DLP as is highlighted in one of my threads, I think it was the old attribute one he went into quite a bit of detail at how it worked and why. It was all about keeping shape.

In fact he touches upon it in the Meet The System thread when he says;

I want the talismanic spearhead forward that doesn't simply bury hundreds of goals in his career but makes this whole system tick perfectly. I want the now obligatory world class deep lying playmaker that can land a golf ball on the head of a pin from 60 yards anywhere on the pitch that provides the ammunition for all my weaponry. And finally I want to knit all this together with a style of football that is built on style, flair, panache and self expression of the highest order.

In this quote he's explaining why he's set up his attack the way he has.

[Romanista1994]

SFrazer used DLP as is highlighted in one of my threads, I think it was the old attribute one he went into quite a bit of detail at how it worked and why. It was all about keeping shape.

In fact he touches upon it in the Meet The System thread when he says;

In this quote he's explaining why he's set up his attack the way he has.

I know that he wanted his players to stay deep, but look at the screenshots in his Meet the System thread and try setting a B2B midfielder up in the same way that he set up his midfielders (he went with Balanced/Control strategy): leave the CF, passing, mentality and closing down untouched, while changing the Run From Deep to rare, through balls to often, crossing to rare and run with ball to sometimes. The role I have described is exactly what he has in his screenshots in post #5 of Meet the System, I am absolutely certain of that as I did multiple comparisons with those screenshots when I recreated his tactic on FM10.

The deep lying playmaker was how he described his midfield players, not the specific role that he used.

[Cleon]

He probably knows he's being watched since he went on to have a great match with two goals and two assists though to be fair Liverpool are terrible at the moment in my game.

Really think it might be the strategy in my case i was playing away so i only used standard and counter for most of the match and he really didn't went wide since he had so much space to run from what i could see he didn't get into the same space as the AMC, i might need a slightly different approach on matches where i'm more aggressive.

http://i.imgur.com/7cNq1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/586Iu.jpg

Looking at the heat map it looks that they maybe get in the same positions rarely sometimes though.

I just remembered that i set tight marking on their full backs to help with the tracking back of my AML/R i don't know if it's causing any problems.

Do you play really normally wide? The wider you play the harder it is for inside forwards to cut in I've found out. Although he does get more space to exploit so it can be a double edged sword.

Tight marking would make him go out wider yes towards the fullback, so maybe his start position is been affected by this? Is he been dragged out of position do you think?

Could you show me the passing stats for a game where he's been poor please from the analysis tab so I can see the areas he passes from and to.

How many dribbles does he do on average in a game?