Setting up a 4-2-3-1

Hi All,

I have been posting questions in other threads regarding having problems deciding on how to setup my 4-2-3-1 but have now decided to create a seperate thread to hopefully get more notice.

Basically I have the following so far:

Philosophy: Balanced

Strategy: Counter/Standard/Control

All team instructions are on default except CF and Marking which is set to More Expressive and Zonal Respectively. I think that is a pretty decent overall setup but am just not able to strike the right player Roles and Duties. I am Man United and this is my squad:

First team players on the left

GK: De Gea/Lindegaard

DR: Rafael/Vrsaljko

DC: Vidic/Jones

DC: Ferdinand/Smalling

DL: Evra/Fabio

MC: Fletcher/Gibson/Ji-Sung Park

MC: Giggs/Carrick/Anderson

AMR: Nani/Valencia

AMC: Rooney/Berbatov/Cleverley

AML: Young/Afellay

ST: Hernandez/Welbeck/Owen

I would appreciate any thoughts/advice on how you guys would go about setting player roles and duties in this situation.

This was one of my setups but I was not completely happy with it:

I play with a 4-2-3-1 currently. Fullbacks are on automatic, dcl is a bpd on cover, dcr is cd stopper (best marker/tackler plays here and vidic is perfect for this role). Mcl is on cm/support, fletcher or anderson work really well there usually. The other mc I have as ball winner on defend. I've had really good results using Jones here initially, and then as Ferdinand ages and slows down, I transition Jones back as his replacement. Up front I used hernandez as a poacher (welbeck also is really good as a poacher, so he rotates nicely with hernandez). Since I was only using one striker, I played rooney at AML as an inside forward, with mixed results. Some games he was great, other times he wasn't very involved. The amr is a traditional winger and both Nani or valencia work well here. The AMC position can be tricky, I eventually bought Marvin Martin from Sochaux to play here because of injuries, etc. and he played really well for me as an advanced playmaker on support.

Team instructions, attacking philosophy, with counter attack on and offside trap off.

When I get home, I will look at more of the team settings I use.

i would read sfrasers thread on this called "meet the system".

I have read it actually but the system he uses is too adventurous for me, I want to use a more defensive one. For example, I would rather have one MC on a defend and the other on support as it suits my current players better. Also, I prefer my FB's hanging further back to avoid potential counter attacks. I did actually try it in a few matches but it was very attacking.

I will definetly go for:

GK: De Gea Goalkeeper, defend

DR: Rafael Fullback, Support

DC: Vidic Defender, Cover

DC: Ferdinand Defender, Stopper

DL: Evra Wingback, Support

MC: Fletcher Defensive midfielder, Defend

MC: Anderson Box-to-Box midfielder, Support

AMR: Valencia Winger, Attack

AMC: Rooney Attacking midfielder, attack

AML: Young Inside Forward, Attack

ST: Berbatov Deep lying forward, Support

This as a base formation, of course you have to make tweaks depending on the oposition formation, reputation, etc. The roles and duties may differ a little from match to match, but this would be a good starting point.

A back four, on the right the tandem Valencia providing width as a winger and Fabio as a more conservative fullback. On the left, Young cutting inside and Evra bombing forward to provide width and exploit space created by Young. A Deep lying forward coming deep to create space and provide through balls for three runners in a) Young, b) Rooney, c) Valencia. A pretty balanced midfield duo in Fletcher/Anderson for a nice cover/link up tandem. Straight forward, simple, tight and balanced.

I also would go for:

Balanced

Counter or Standard

Zonal marking

Mixed passing (Short if facing a really defensive side)

Everything else in mixed or default

Do you plan same setup for away games? How do you plan to play against Arsenal away, for example?

It depends on Arsenal formation, players, etc. for that match. Against 4-1-2-2-1/4-3-3 the combination of Deep lying forward and Attacking midfielder on attack doesnt work properly, as oposition DMC usually nullifies the space between the lines. The goal when facing 4-3-3 is to try to break up the tightness between the lines, mainly trying to a) draw the DMC out of position and b) trying to push their defense towards their goal to create even more space between midfield and defense.

A good idea that comes to me is to play an AMC as Advanced Playmaker on support (because the ADV Pmk uses to drop deep and so he would invite the DMC to chase him and leave his natural position) and an Advanced Forward on attack to try to push their defense back.

Of course this space should be exploited by an Inside forward running directly to defense or a Central Midfielder running into the space left by the oposition DMC.

From the 4-2-3-1 you have going there I would change Nani to Winger (support) so he comes deeper and can be played in by your midfielders and right fullback instead of spending most of his time trying to get at the end of a move by making forward runs and sitting on top of the D-line lurking for through balls. Nani is also an outstanding creator and as a winger on support his wideplay is set to normal which allows him to both make a play along the side line and cross as well as come inside for a through ball or long shot. I would play Rooney in a more attacking role (maybe set his forward runs and dribbles to often) but he might already be doing fine as is.

I also think that while playing deep can really help both defensively and in lurking deep opponents out of their defensive position it would help a lot in the attacking phase if you play wider and with a little higher tempo. This can really help take advantage of luring your opponent out by quickly getting the ball forward (if you have counter attacking ticked they probably already do this) and playing wider opens up the field even more for your technical players to take advantage off.

btw. This is mostly personal preference but I like to play with ball playing defenders (I usually set their through balls to sometimes tho) which helps with getting the ball to the midfielders more instead of mostly passing to the fullbacks. Especially if you have both wingers in an attacking role (acting more like strikers) playing the ball to the fullbacks all the time can really slow down build up while getting it to the midfielders with a simple forward pass through the lines is immediately puts the opponent in danger.

Edit: Another thing I like to do is play the defensive midfielder as DLP and the supporting midfielder as box-to-box. This gives more penetration to your attacks with the BtB running from deep while not taking a big hit on the defensive side of your game (but this of course depends on the stamina, workrate and defensive qualities of the BtB midfielder). When playing wider especially there is a lot of room for an MC to join the attack and force a defensive player out of position or even get through on goal himself.

After a bit of trial and error on FM11, I’ve got a pretty decent 4231 going on FM12. Scored in 21 games in a row, set a club record 8 wins in a row, solid defensively, top of the league in the new season after 5 games. Playing in the German 2nd Division and I haven’t tested it on the current version on a BIG team, but here are the basics:

- Philosophy always Rigid

- Standard strategy at home to start, Counter away

- Zonal marking always

- Press More at home, default away

Roles:

GK – SK / S

DR – WB / Auto

DL - WB / Auto

CD – CD / D

CD – CD / D

CMR – CM / D

CML – DLP / S

AMR – IF / S

AMC – ADP / S

AML – W / A

CF – TM / A or Treq / A

What I’ve found is that Wing Backs are much better in this formation, although I will change them to a FB when I need them to be more defensive or I’m playing someone slightly out of position. But generally the defensive unit/back 6 or 7 works very well and we constantly have very high possession stats. The AMR/L roles are set and changed to the abilities and preferences of the players playing there, and the change of the AMR to an IF on Support duty has worked quite well so far – I’m actually experimenting with putting my RB on attack to get him overlapping with the CMR providing cover.

The one role I’m still not satisfied with is the Centre Fwd position, I originally went with Complete Fwd, but as I have a varied style of player who can play there I’ve been rotating them and the role depending on the situation. Getting plenty of goals this season from my ADP actually but I suspect that’s because he’s a very good player who is playing the position well.

Anyway, I love it and it’s working well so far!

Thanks for all the advice guys, it is truly appreciated

I will keep fiddling and see how it goes.

I would appreciate some help setting up a 4-2-3-1 too. I am a long time Chelsea fan so they will be my team. I have struggled to get a 4-2-3-1 working well on FM12. Looking at the squad I plan to sell Drogba & Anelka. They are coming to the end of their careers and this will free up some funds to get a couple of wide players in. I would ideally like to play with inside forwards – I will look into who to bring in over the next couple of days but if anyone has any suggestions that would be great. Someone like Munian might be good but maybe it would take a season or two for him to get good enough.

So, my starting line-up will look like this. And these are the rolls I planned on giving them but I would really appreciate some help here.

G Cech

FB/Au Bosingwa

FB/Au Cole

CD/D Terry

CD/D Luiz

MCL/D/BWM Mikel

MCR/S/DLP Lampard

AM/A/TQ Mata

IF/A ?????/Malouda

IF/A ?????/Kalou

S/A/Po Torres

I could use Ramires instead of Mikel and have him B2B. I should maybe set Malouda & Kalou to wingers until I buy players who would be better inside forwards?

Team instructions: planned to change starting strategy depending on the situation. Fluid, zonal, press more. Everything else on standard.

Player instructions: Just set everyone to rarely shoot from long range and maybe tell Mata to play through balls?

I’d really appreciate if some of the gurus on here could spot any mistakes I’m making.

I have been tinkering with mine and tried Marsupian's suggested changes, it really makes a big difference. The attacking space that is created with the Complete Forward - Attack (Wide Play set to Normal) and Attacking Midfielder - Attack (Wide Play set to Move into Channels) is amazing. Even Hernandez and Welbeck do well playing as a CF dropping deep plus they get forward and score. Lastly, the Box to Box Midfielder is very nice to watch, he bursts into the box every now and then and scores some nice goals. I have been using Park there due to his Stamina and Work Rate but you could use Ramires as you said.

My 4-2-3-1 with United has a slightly different ideology behind it. My team goes as follows:

Fluid Philosophy

Control Strategy

All Team Instructions are default apart from Press More, Zonal Marking and Drill Crosses

No set Playmaker or Target Man

GK: De Gea - Sweeper Keeper - Defend

RB: Rafael/Vrsaljko - Full Back - Support

RCB: Vidic/Jones - Central Defender - Stopper

LCB: Ferdinand/Smalling/Evans - Ball Playing Defender - Cover

LB: Evra/Fabio - Full Back - Support

CM: Fletcher/Anderson/Javi Martinez/Giggs/Jones/Cleverley/Carrick/Pogba - Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend

AML: Young/Cleverley/Morrison - Advanced Playmaker - Attack

AMC: Rooney/Cleverley/Giggs/Morrison - Trequartista - Attack (RFD Sometimes)

AMR: Nani/Valencia/Cleverley/Morrison - Inside Forward/Winger - Attack

ST: Hernandez/Rooney/Welbeck/Macheda - Poacher - Attack

There are some odd things in here that I'll explain. The reasoning behind De Gea as a Sweeper Keeper is because whilst he isn't the best at rushing out, I still have a moderately high defensive line and telling him to keep his ground when at least trying to go out is the better option doesn't feel right for me. I want to be able to give him the choice rather than forcing one idea here.

My CM's all having the same role is probably another odd point. The idea for this is that I want my central midfielders to be deep and to stay in position where possible, so playing a ball winning midfielder doesn't feel right here. It may work for some but it's not how I want to play. The players that I have here for the most part are not blessed with flair but they all do have some good technique and passing, so I can give them some creative freedom knowing that they are not going to go overboard with it. Somebody like Fletcher plays this role surprisingly well. He has good creativity and passing (along with decisions) but has low flair, so I can count on him being capable of accurate distribution without being silly, plus he is very good in a defensive minded midfield role. Alongside him I play a more flair type player such as Giggs or even Jones (who has been superb in this role and also the role I have for him in my away tactic). Just because they have the same role as Fletcher does not mean that they will play it the same way. No two players will play the same role in the exact same way (unless you crush their creative freedom) so don't be afraid to play identical roles for your midfield pair.

Moving onto the attacking band of 3, I like to have at least one winger cut inside from a wide position. Since I don't play any classic left winger, I can choose between either the Advanced Playmaker or Inside Forward. I choose the Advanced Playmaker purely on the fact that I want another creative player out wide just incase things are a bit bogged down in the middle. It gives an extra creative outlet. My right winger depends on who I play, if it is Nani or Cleverley then it is an Inside Forward. My tactic doesn't have many players whose main role is to score goals and Nani is quite prolific infront of goal for me, plus he is capable with either foot, so this role I feel gives him the best chance of finding the net. If Valencia is playing, this role is not really suited for him. He isn't the best finisher so I have to adapt slightly to fit him. So I play to his strengths of getting past his man and crossing. So I select the Winger option. This will reduce a goal scoring threat but it opens up a different approach if I need to break down a defensively stubborn side.

The reasoning behind my use of a Trequartista is that I want the player used here to be as much of an attacking threat as possible. However I have found that the Trequartista does still defend to some extent, which I don't mind. I gave him extra RFD just to make sure he gets into the box and will threaten goal, rather than just sitting in the hole which limits options.

Hopefully I've explained my reasons well enough. This is a tactic that can still be improved upon but in 12 home games using it I have won each, conceding just 1 and scoring I think 27 (not on FM as of now). It's worked very well for me and hopefully somebody can take something good out of this.

ShirazS what is the final version of your 4-2-3-1 ?

I have not completely settled on a final version as I am still fiddling every now and then but this is what I am currently using. It was suggested by Marsupian in another thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/292645-Tactical-Help?p=7428193&viewfull=1#post7428193

Just beat City 2-0 Away playing on the Counter. I had the CF's roaming turned off.

Edit: Also, I found this wonderful thread with lots of discussion on the 4-2-3-1

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/129647-4-2-3-1-Formation

just read this in crouchaldinho's post"The positioning of the AMC and Striker is determined by footedness though."

forgive my sometimes thickheadedness but what exactly does that mean?will aright footed AMC favour the right half of the pitch?what about the striker?i play with a poacher who is supposed to sniff around the penalty box yet Danny Welbeck(right footed)and hernandez(not 100%sure if right footed)will ALWAYS drift out to the left-almost to the freaking byline-when there is no need as the left winger/full back are roaming around down there anyway.this happens in all games that i watch,i dont play 4231 so forgive me posting in this thread.Welbecks partner is mostlr Rooney playing as dlf support which along with his ppm of comes deep to get ball means he operate quite deep (which he does in game) so its not like he is forcing welbeck out wide quite the opposite obviously he has left the very space that i want welbeck to run into.so why the does welbeck drift out wide?crouchaldinho's quote was made in a 2009 thread but i'm sure it still remains the same for fm12?

so my question is why would a right footed striker wander way out to the left if footedness effects his positioning

I am not sure about the footedness but I would try setting your Poacher's wide play to normal and see if he stops drifting out to the left?

just read this in crouchaldinho's post"The positioning of the AMC and Striker is determined by footedness though."

forgive my sometimes thickheadedness but what exactly does that mean?will aright footed AMC favour the right half of the pitch?what about the striker?i play with a poacher who is supposed to sniff around the penalty box yet Danny Welbeck(right footed)and hernandez(not 100%sure if right footed)will ALWAYS drift out to the left-almost to the freaking byline-when there is no need as the left winger/full back are roaming around down there anyway.this happens in all games that i watch,i dont play 4231 so forgive me posting in this thread.Welbecks partner is mostlr Rooney playing as dlf support which along with his ppm of comes deep to get ball means he operate quite deep (which he does in game) so its not like he is forcing welbeck out wide quite the opposite obviously he has left the very space that i want welbeck to run into.so why the does welbeck drift out wide?crouchaldinho's quote was made in a 2009 thread but i'm sure it still remains the same for fm12?

so my question is why would a right footed striker wander way out to the left if footedness effects his positioning

Do you mean that you want your poacher drifting out to the left or that your poacher is drifting to the left and this is not what you want him to do?

If you are right footed and you want to score a goal would you rather approach the goal from the right or the left side? Probably the left side so you can use the inside of your right foot. Because of this if you want a player to score goals it's often best for him to start on weak side approach the goal from there. For deeper players footedness is mostly less important (if you want to pass forward you can use both feet and they are often under less pressure.

A right footed AMC will probably favor moving towards the right side of the pitch because he can make a forward pass or shot while running towards the right side. The defender will probably force him to the left side however as he is less dangerous that way. His starting position shouldn't really be effected by his footedness but if it does he will probably want to start a little on the left so he can play through balls and shoot while moving to the center. More likely tho he will just move towards wherever the ball is to pick it up and start a play or to where the most space is so he can receive it in space.

Wouldn't it be easier for a right-footed striker to move to the right side and shoot for the left corner?

Wouldn't it be easier for a right-footed striker to move to the right side and shoot for the left corner?

If he is moving to the left from the right it's not optimal. If he is on the right side of the goal but moving forward it's fine. If he is moving from the left to the right he has the most options.

It's always best for a striker to face the goal directly and from a central position. It's also the most well guarded area of the pitch. The next best (for right a footed player)thing is to move forward facing goal but more towards the right off-center or move towards the goal from the left side. It's often easiest for an attacking player to receive the ball on the flank in space so that is why they often move wide towards the side of their weak foot.

Ah I see, makes sense.

Do you mean that you want your poacher drifting out to the left or that your poacher is drifting to the left and this is not what you want him to do?

If you are right footed and you want to score a goal would you rather approach the goal from the right or the left side? Probably the left side so you can use the inside of your right foot. Because of this if you want a player to score goals it's often best for him to start on weak side approach the goal from there. For deeper players footedness is mostly less important (if you want to pass forward you can use both feet and they are often under less pressure.

A right footed AMC will probably favor moving towards the right side of the pitch because he can make a forward pass or shot while running towards the right side. The defender will probably force him to the left side however as he is less dangerous that way. His starting position shouldn't really be effected by his footedness but if it does he will probably want to start a little on the left so he can play through balls and shoot while moving to the center. More likely tho he will just move towards wherever the ball is to pick it up and start a play or to where the most space is so he can receive it in space.

yeah but welbeck has already drifted out wide which i dont want especially as a poacher.

yeah but welbeck has already drifted out wide which i dont want especially as a poacher.

If you don't want your poacher to drift wide set his wideplay to normal (also make sure you haven't told him to roam in the team instructions. By moving wide he makes himself available for through balls and a poacher in real life will also often drift into wide areas but it depends a bit on how the rest of the team plays. In general it's a good idea to have your poacher move into wide areas but it can work better for him to stay central depending on how you have your team set up and how deep the opponent is defending (a poacher isn't that useful out wide if he the opponent is defending deep).

did you have any good 4-2-3-1 for patch 12.04 ?

Marsupian

did you have any good 4-2-3-1 for patch 12.04 ?

Marsupian

I have one I like. I'm now playing a 4-5-1 but here is my 4-2-3-1 (from the top of my head )

Team instructions:

Fluid

Control (change around depending on my approach to the match)

More expressive

Zonal

Rest on default, no playmaker or targetman

GK: normal GK (defend)

DC's: Ball playing defenders on defend (through balls set to sometimes)

FB's: Full backs on support (change to atttacking if I feel like they have the space to be a thread and want more attacking players)

MCr: Box to box midfielder (through balls on often)

MCl: Deep lying playmaker (defend)

AMC: Attacking midfielder on attack (run from deep often, wide play move into channels, roaming on)

AML: Advanced Playmaker on attack (roaming on)

AMR: Inside Forward on attack (roaming off)

ST: Trequartista or complete forward (attack) If the opponent plays a high defensive line (usually attacking) I set him to complete forward with roaming off and wide play to "move into channels" if the opponent plays deep and defensive I set him to trequartista with wide play to "normal" and roaming on. When I play him in the complete forward role I will sometimes change the AMC's wide play to normal and run from deep to sometimes (or even rarely) to exploit the space the opponent leaves by playing deep.

Shouts I use quite regularly are "hassle opponent" if I want to play a hard pressing game with a high line or "drop deep" together with changing the strategy to counter and sometimes "stand off opponents" if I want to defend deep. Very rarely I will play an attacking game while defending deep but then I usually just manually decrease the defensive line and maybe change pressing to "stand off".

If you want to use more traditional wingers you can change the AML to Winger (support) and/or the AMR to winger (attack) and you can also turn the two around if that fits your players better. Another change you can make is to play your more creative player in the DLP spot (instead of the more defensive one) and change it's role to support. The more defensive midfielder will then go to the box to box role which you can change to CM (defend) or Ball winning midfielder (defend or support depending on how aggressive you want to play). This change will put your creative midfielder deeper and away from pressure so he can create play more easily. Normally I play the more creative midfielder in the box to box role so he gets further forward up the pitch where his technical abilities can shine more but for some games it's just to crowded up there for him to do much. With my Arsenal save I changed the "run with ball" for all my attacking players to "sometimes" so they would pass through defense more (I think you can do this with a shout as well but not sure) but for lower quality teams it might be better to just let them run around a bit .

btw. Here is the type of players you want for the roles:

GK: it's a keeper, nothing special.

DC: I like rounded DC's but it's fine if you play more limited DC's here, the world won't end abruptly (btw. play the best header on the right and set corners to "far post", it scores goals).

FB: Hard working fullbacks with a good tackle, nothing special really.

MCr: more creative and technical MC, he needs good stamina or you can just sub him every game as I ended up doing with Ramsey and Arteta playing here. If you can't do this change him to CM(support) or something.

MCl: More defensive midfielder, helps if he has a decent pass and some creativity/decisions.

AMC: Standard AMC but he will get quite a few chances on goal especially when you play the Trequartista/Attacking midfielder setup.

AML: Creator on the left who cuts inside, a standard inside forward will do but you want him to have some decent creativity and passing (I used Gervinho and Archavin who ripped teams apart both scoring and assisting).

AMR: Second striker, lurks for through balls and scores goals, walcott did decent with Archavin and Rosicky also grabbing some decent games here.

ST: A fast poacher type works best for the "Complete forward" role while a more creative player works better for the "trequartista" role. I used RVP and Chamakh in both and they did well.

I'm still planning to do a full post on a bunch of tactics (this one included) but this should get you started .

MCl: Deep lying forward (defend)

I have one I like. I'm now playing a 4-5-1 but here is my 4-2-3-1 (from the top of my head )

Team instructions:

Fluid

Control (change around depending on my approach to the match)

More expressive

Zonal

Rest on default, no playmaker or targetman

GK: normal GK (defend)

DC's: Ball playing defenders on defend (through balls set to sometimes)

FB's: Full backs on support (change to atttacking if I feel like they have the space to be a thread and want more attacking players)

MCr: Box to box midfielder (through balls on often)

MCl: Deep lying forward (defend)

AMC: Attacking midfielder on attack (run from deep often, wide play move into channels, roaming on)

AML: Advanced Playmaker on attack (roaming on)

AMR: Inside Forward on attack (roaming off)

ST: Trequartista or complete forward (attack) If the opponent plays a high defensive line (usually attacking) I set him to complete forward with roaming off and wide play to "move into channels" if the opponent plays deep and defensive I set him to trequartista with wide play to "normal" and roaming on. When I play him in the complete forward role I will sometimes change the AMC's wide play to normal and run from deep to sometimes (or even rarely) to exploit the space the opponent leaves by playing deep.

Shouts I use quite regularly are "hassle opponent" if I want to play a hard pressing game with a high line or "drop deep" together with changing the strategy to counter and sometimes "stand off opponents" if I want to defend deep. Very rarely I will play an attacking game while defending deep but then I usually just manually decrease the defensive line and maybe change pressing to "stand off".

If you want to use more traditional wingers you can change the AML to Winger (support) and/or the AMR to winger (attack) and you can also turn the two around if that fits your players better. Another change you can make is to play your more creative player in the DLP spot (instead of the more defensive one) and change it's role to support. The more defensive midfielder will then go to the box to box role which you can change to CM (defend) or Ball winning midfielder (defend or support depending on how aggressive you want to play). This change will put your creative midfielder deeper and away from pressure so he can create play more easily. Normally I play the more creative midfielder in the box to box role so he gets further forward up the pitch where his technical abilities can shine more but for some games it's just to crowded up there for him to do much. With my Arsenal save I changed the "run with ball" for all my attacking players to "sometimes" so they would pass through defense more (I think you can do this with a shout as well but not sure) but for lower quality teams it might be better to just let them run around a bit .

btw. Here is the type of players you want for the roles:

GK: it's a keeper, nothing special.

DC: I like rounded DC's but it's fine if you play more limited DC's here, the world won't end abruptly (btw. play the best header on the right and set corners to "far post", it scores goals).

FB: Hard working fullbacks with a good tackle, nothing special really.

MCr: more creative and technical MC, he needs good stamina or you can just sub him every game as I ended up doing with Ramsey and Arteta playing here. If you can't do this change him to CM(support) or something.

MCl: More defensive midfielder, helps if he has a decent pass and some creativity/decisions.

AMC: Standard AMC but he will get quite a few chances on goal especially when you play the Trequartista/Attacking midfielder setup.

AML: Creator on the left who cuts inside, a standard inside forward will do but you want him to have some decent creativity and passing (I used Gervinho and Archavin who ripped teams apart both scoring and assisting).

AMR: Second striker, lurks for through balls and scores goals, walcott did decent with Archavin and Rosicky also grabbing some decent games here.

ST: A fast poacher type works best for the "Complete forward" role while a more creative player works better for the "trequartista" role. I used RVP and Chamakh in both and they did well.

I'm still planning to do a full post on a bunch of tactics (this one included) but this should get you started .

When playing with a control mentality and using the "Hassle Opponents" shout, would a sweeper keeper work better or would you recommend sticking with a normal keeper?

thats one very odd role you have there Marsupian

It's a specialty of mine, saying the wrong word that is .

btw. A sweeper keeper would probably work better yes. I usually just stick with a normal keeper but there is a good chance a sweeper keeper would work better (although that also depends a bit on what keeper you have).

I have two versions of 4-2-3-1 I'm using at the moment.

Both use the same Team Instructions and only differ in player roles/duties.

Philosophy = Balanced

Strategy = Control most of the time (sometimes I go Counter or Attack)

Passing = shorter

Freedom = more expressive

Closing Down = press more

Tackling = default

Marking = Zonal

Crossing = drill crosses

Roaming = more roaming

GK = sweeper keeper, defend

FBs = fullback, attack -OR- support

DCs = central defender, defend

MCR = advanced playmaker, support (no RFD) -OR- deep-lying playmaker, support

MCL = ball-winning mid, support (no RFD, mixed RWB, TTB) -OR- ball-winning midfielder, defend

AMC = attacking midfielder, attack (mixed RFD, RWB, TTB, moves into channels) -OR- advanced playmaker, attack (with roaming, normal wide play)

AMR/L = inside forward, attack (mixed RWB, TTB, no LS, normal wide play) -OR- inside forward, attack (default)

STC = trequartista, attack (mixed RFD, RWB, TTB, normal wide play)

Custom Shout = retain possession, pass to feet, work ball into box, hassle opponents

After a bit of trial and error on FM11, I’ve got a pretty decent 4231 going on FM12. Scored in 21 games in a row, set a club record 8 wins in a row, solid defensively, top of the league in the new season after 5 games. Playing in the German 2nd Division and I haven’t tested it on the current version on a BIG team, but here are the basics:

- Philosophy always Rigid

- Standard strategy at home to start, Counter away

- Zonal marking always

- Press More at home, default away

Roles:

GK – SK / S

DR – WB / Auto

DL - WB / Auto

CD – CD / D

CD – CD / D

CMR – CM / D

CML – DLP / S

AMR – IF / S

AMC – ADP / S

AML – W / A

CF – TM / A or Treq / A

What I’ve found is that Wing Backs are much better in this formation, although I will change them to a FB when I need them to be more defensive or I’m playing someone slightly out of position. But generally the defensive unit/back 6 or 7 works very well and we constantly have very high possession stats. The AMR/L roles are set and changed to the abilities and preferences of the players playing there, and the change of the AMR to an IF on Support duty has worked quite well so far – I’m actually experimenting with putting my RB on attack to get him overlapping with the CMR providing cover.

The one role I’m still not satisfied with is the Centre Fwd position, I originally went with Complete Fwd, but as I have a varied style of player who can play there I’ve been rotating them and the role depending on the situation. Getting plenty of goals this season from my ADP actually but I suspect that’s because he’s a very good player who is playing the position well.

Anyway, I love it and it’s working well so far!

If it helps, I've just gone 4 points clear at the top of the table (Bundesliga 2, tipped for 5th) and the only change I've made is that I've settled on my Striker playing as an Adv F Attack, primarily because it suits his stats and he's now 10 in 10 inc 3 wonder goals. Loving this formation and how my team is clicking...

Hey Marsupian,

I have been using the setup you suggested above with quite a bit of success however in my last match away to Marseille, we really struggled and lost 3-0

I played on the counter since we were very slight favourites. I figured that I would rather be safe. Here are the match stats and line-ups:

The third goal came after I switched to Control as I did not think I was going to get 2 goals on the counter.

I would be grateful if you can give me some pointers regarding where I went wrong or on what to change. Let me know if you want more information about the match.

Can anyone give me any tips/advice regarding the above match?

These were the team instructions:

It looks to me like we had too many shots from range and their's were closer to goal. I doubt that removing long shots would improve this?

Could using a Standard strategy have made any difference?

My first instinct when I look at your lineup is that I would swap Fletcher and Anderson to be on the same sides as their strongest foot (I assume Anderson is left footed?) but keep the roles in the same positions as it suits them both better?

I don't ever play Fluid or have high Creative Freedom but would definitely recommend using wing-backs instead of full-backs. Also your Defence and Midfield pass completion is relatively low for a team like Man U so I'd be looking to deal with that during the match - Pass To Feet, Play Out From the Back, etc.

Can anyone give me any tips/advice regarding the above match?

These were the team instructions:

It looks to me like we had too many shots from range and their's were closer to goal. I doubt that removing long shots would improve this?

Could using a Standard strategy have made any difference?

I think it would be better if you use Balanced Philosophy and Standard Strategy. Were you a favorite before the Marseilles game? If yes, I would even go with Control Strategy. IMO Counter sets you D-Line too deep and stretches your team too much.

I also think your player roles are wrong (from this screenshot). I would play Evra as FB-attack, Ferdinand and Vidic as regular CBs (perhaps Nemanja on cover duty as he is slower). Anderson as MCL, Fletcher as MCR - CM-support and DLP-support. Nani as IF-attack, Valencia as W-attack, and Rooney as CF-support.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, really appreciated!

Before reading them though, I decided to stick with same setup for the next away game to Arsenal and won 2-1 so maybe the motivation was just not right against Marseille?

I will keep the current setup for now but I will definitely try one or two of the above tips

Thanks for the suggestions guys, really appreciated!

Before reading them though, I decided to stick with same setup for the next away game to Arsenal and won 2-1 so maybe the motivation was just not right against Marseille?

I will keep the current setup for now but I will definitely try one or two of the above tips

There are always a lot of factors involved including luck so it's hard to tell if it was a tactical problem. The thing with a counter strategy is that you basically give the initiative away to your opponent and try to punish them for any mistakes they make. As a result Marseilles had superior possession and as they were probably not in a hurry to break you down a superior passing rate. You still got in an equal amount of shots and a ccc so you were somewhat effective on the counter I presume. The main problem is that when you play on the counter you can't just concede two goals. It would be interesting to look at where their goals come from and if it was due to giving them too much space by sitting deep, a defensive error or something else. If you look at the ccc's of Marseilles you notice two of them are inside the 6yd box. If those are from corners and you concede two goals from there the problem is probably not with the tactic but either your set piece tactic, the opponent using focusing on attacking set pieces before the match, bad morale/mistakes or bad luck (or a combination of those).

On the other end you had trouble creating chances which might be because Marseilles was staying too deep to effectively counter against (hard to tell from just a heat map). It might have been better to choose for a more careful build up instead of a quick counter. Next time maybe increase width, tempo and time wasting a little (and maybe untick counter) to encourage more build up play instead of hurried balls to the front.

You could also try the complete opposite approach next time in a situation like this by going for a control or attack strategy and high pressure (I usually just use the hassle opponents shout). It can be risky but if it works it works well.

Both their goals came from a right wing cross into the feet of Remy who received the ball and finished without any trouble from my DC's. True, I probably should have used Control in that match as I was slight favourites and would have had a better chance of winning that way

I just wanted post an update on my progress. I am using Marsupian's suggested setup from post #26 and it rocks

Really enjoying FM again, thanks dude

hello.. i wonder if there any good counter setup for the 4-3-2-1 wide with cms? i play with leeds just promoted to premier league. so if any could help me i really would appreciate it..

I havn't read most of this thread , but a few tips on this formation from my experience sorry if they have been mentioned allready .

The AMC can be problemmatic if the other team has a DMC they can easily be marked out of the game so in these cases its important to let him be able to roam around looking for space. You will find him out near the wings alot in this scenario. Another option is to drop his mentallity all the way to defensive. meaning he will will drop very deep allmost to a central midfield position. If he is still getting marked than push him back into a true cm position and have is mentality in the middle. The opossing DM will still come up to him when he has the ball, but this will give him time to get the ball and then choose what to do with it.

Also if the other team has a DMC that doesn't leave alot of space for your inside forwards to work in. I prefer to have one of the aml or amr set as inside forward and the other set as a winger with the move into channels or hug touchline setting for his wide play . If the other teams had a good organized defence and the crosses arent working thats when i ask the winger to move into channels instead, This means he may still put crosses in but also my play thru balls, or just recycle possession if nothing is on.

My two central midfielders play as central midfield as support , with long shots and forward runs both set to rarely , i pretty much follow the advice of Sfraser on this matter and works well. As this allows me to use my fullbacks in very attacking roles. As i will allways have my to MC's and my two DC behind the ball . I do still get goals from my two Mc's not alot but they will arrive in the oppositions area very late and get on the end of some passes. My fb's do get cought out occasionally by being so attacking but most of these i found after review are from throws in deep into the oppsition area.

My left full back is Left footed but he has the PPM cuts inside which he will do every so often but he will also hug the touchline( he is just on attack duty in the setting no other changes). He goes where ever there is more space. This works really well as he has 14 assists and 6 goals. My right fullback has about 1/4 of the assists and no goals. Both are of the same quality so him cutting inside provides quite a bit extra to the attacking side of my team. I have tried to tell my other Fb to cut inside but he becomes to one dimentional and tries it way to often and is ineffective. So having the PPM for it can be very good.

Lastly , if the oppsotion is out playing you and they have an amc your giving him lots of room to play in. So in this situation i drop my Amc into an attacking CM role and just allow my other CM to run forward sometimes .

Edit: I dont have my AMC set as a playmaker , i let my players decide who is the best option to pass to rather than trying to force them into passing to a particular player. I might set him as a playmaker if my players had very poor decisions stats or playing lower league football . But i also believe in letting the players play the game, im just there to give them the basic frame work to work by.

I notice that not too many people play Wingbacks with this formation, I actually play a FB on one side and a WB on the other as it suits the players I use. That's what I like about this formation, there's lots of variety to be found throughout... Currently my AML is set to be a winger, and my AMR is a AdvPlaymaker because it's suits the AMC I play there and encourages him to come inside and link with the AMC.

Im currently toying with a 4-2-3-1 variation, have been following this thread for a while. DOes anyone else find it is very good on the counter. Playing a considerably weaker team in a friendly, they have lots of the ball then suddenly bang 1-0 up. Seems to be very similar to Germany in the World Cup, devestatingly fast on the break.

Im currently toying with a 4-2-3-1 variation, have been following this thread for a while. DOes anyone else find it is very good on the counter. Playing a considerably weaker team in a friendly, they have lots of the ball then suddenly bang 1-0 up. Seems to be very similar to Germany in the World Cup, devestatingly fast on the break.

Agreed, I think it is because of the AMC, he is in a prime position to receive the ball cleared out of defense and then play a through ball for the striker. Especially if using Zonal Marking because then your players tend to have more space often.

Agreed, I think it is because of the AMC, he is in a prime position to receive the ball cleared out of defense and then play a through ball for the striker. Especially if using Zonal Marking because then your players tend to have more space often.

I use a Treq as well so he rarely gets back at all. Next game I play im going to watch him closely and see where he moves. My two wingers are rapid quick but on support roles so they do get a little further back.

I use a mix of zonal/man. I like the Bielsa style high press so my DR/L AMR/L are both set to specific man marking. DC's are man but not specific. DM is zonal to sweep up everything, striker zonal and a high closing down to pressure the opposition DC's. Really impressed with it so far. Although I think against a stronger team I would get demolished.

I´m currently playing a counter attacking 4-2-3-1 with BATE Borisov of Belarus where i took over in 2013 (so a couple of their main guys were gone)

Obviously the league isn´t any measuring stick, but the last 2 seasons i played a good amount of friendlies against good teams and i´ve reached the first knockout stage of the Europa League (lost to ManU) but survived a group of Fulham, Mallorca and Vitesse. After a heavy 1:4 at Fulham i went to the counter attacking tactic and while my defense is still shaky, it has enabled my offensive talent to "blitz" other teams with quick hitting moves.

I beat Vitesse 5:3 on the road (a 0:0 at home that could have also been a 4:2), played Mallorca 2:2 and 2:1 and beat Fulham 5:2 at home.

This season i qualified for the CL beating Sparta Prague in the playoff (3:0 and 3:2) and after a 1:3 at Real madrid went on to draw CSKA 0:0 and beat Bordeaux 3:0 on the road and 3:2 at home so far.

Admittedly i´ve managed to bring in a few pretty damn good players. Dzagoev came on a free transfer (he was recovering from heavy injury but has since regained enough to start for Russia again), Krivets came back, slovenian Beric up front but it´s still BATE and especially my defense is still purely local players including 2 19 year olds from the own youth academy.

anyway, basically i play fluid, counter, more direct passing and press more and less expressive creativity (i adjust for my creative players). I manually adjust to play more quickly.

--WB (S) -- DC (D) --- DC (D) --- WB (S)

-----------BWM (D) ----- DLP (D)

---W (A)--------AMC (A) ------IF (S)

-----------------CF (S)

the DLP is not ticked as primary playmaker as i believe it limits the effectiveness a lot when he´s off his game and even when he´s on it : I want the ball played ahead fast, not waste time getting it to a guy who the gets it ahead. But i do want a guy here that can play the through ball.

The AMC is asked to roam and is actually my leading goal scoring position (mostly playing Skavysh there as well as Dzagoev and a kid from my own youth ranks who has good physichal and goal scoring stats but little playmaking).

Inside Forward could also be advanced Playmaker, it´s a hybrid between those 2 basically. Wide Play is normal rather than to cut inside, that way he is more flexible. Still gets inside but also goes along the flank more often, i like to play guys who can score here because the position often ends up the recipient of crosses from the Winger on the right. Doesn´t hurt to have some basic defensive skills here (some tackling at least) to help win the ball on the left side (right side i have the BWM)

The Winger (would work the same on the left, you could just switch around the side if you also switch the 2 CMs) is exactly that, a winger. No defensive duties, hug the touch line and then "run, Forrest, run" with or without the ball. Speed and dribbling more important than crossing as he crosses from the byline and often with space (imo there the crossing rating is less important than when crossing early) and often also then can go inside and then pass the ball.

Doesn´t hurt when he can score a bit.

The striker is asked to be a linkage-player and offer himself up for passes and distribute the ball as well.

Overall, as i said this is NOT a defensive tactic but rather one that enables your skilled attacking players to get the ball in space and give them options to get forward and towards goal while not making it overly complicated for your defense to actually get it forward.

I also can dominate posession against weaker teams by pressing a lot (essentially by limiting their options to build up play i win it back often)

Aside from BATE i also used it with Arsenal and Southampton in earlier saves. Will propably go to Holland after BATE and see what happens.