Poor AI squad building means the game gets significantly easier after the first few season

[Spart]

Disappointing !

See the reply of Miles on Twitter :

gregianjohnson Greg Johnson

@milessi with the AI's ability to build teams & squads in the short/long term can it analyse strengths/weaknesses like assman 'team reports'

50 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply in reply to ↑

@milessi

Miles Jacobson @gregianjohnson the AI has the same tools that human managers do. Always has had.

Ha! Refreshed the thread to find my tweets to Miles being posted.

I don't like how twitter makes my queries and his responses come across so clueless and defensive respectively. Haha... damn 140 characters...

[Spart]

@milessi thats cool but its strange seeing AI managers buy so many players they dont need when there are serious weaknesses in their squads

@gregianjohnson @milessi can really detract from long term career saves when AI seemingly buys without looking at squad balance and weakness

Just replied to his response. Hopefully we might hear some more from Miles regarding AI squad building...

[Erimus1876]

@milessi thats cool but its strange seeing AI managers buy so many players they dont need when there are serious weaknesses in their squads

@gregianjohnson @milessi can really detract from long term career saves when AI seemingly buys without looking at squad balance and weakness

Just replied to his response. Hopefully we might hear some more from Miles regarding AI squad building...

Its good to see it brought up. I do wonder if you'll get the silent treatment now though as AI squad buidling is a taboo subject to them

Lets see if he replies

[Kyle Seddon]

Looking forward to hearing what will hopefully be a decent response from miles.

[Spart]

Well if Miles stay away from answering hopefully someone from SI might venture into this thread on a whim.

I'm no AI programmer, coder or games designer, but surely creating a realistic match engine would be the hardest part of the FM experience and SI pull it off brilliantly.

In comparison you would think that imposing certain values and contexts to the behaviour and limits of an AI algorithm, or creating certain archetype behaivors or 'personalities' for AI managers (in a similar way to how agents are represented), wouldn't even come close to complexities and controlled random chaos of a football match with all its potential possible outcomes, anomalies and micro-events.

[Spart]

sorry for the double post but a couple of tweets from @mightymind1973 have stirred up something from Miles...

@milessi Fans like me just want to know if SI has noticed some weak point in the AI system ( transfert and squad ). Please be cool !

@mightymind1973 @milessi Miles, I'sure I'm not the only one who is asking about that. Please don't make it tabou topic so pls reply us.

@mightymind1973 sorry, but which part of "no" do you not understand? There is a time and a place for globally co-ordinated announcements.

Does this mean improved AI squad building and transfers could be an as yet unannounced feature? Perhaps maybe SI just aren't ready to release details on future AI development directions yet.

[Erimus1876]

sorry for the double post but a couple of tweets from @mightymind1973 have stirred up something from Miles...

@milessi Fans like me just want to know if SI has noticed some weak point in the AI system ( transfert and squad ). Please be cool !

@mightymind1973 @milessi Miles, I'sure I'm not the only one who is asking about that. Please don't make it tabou topic so pls reply us.

@mightymind1973 sorry, but which part of "no" do you not understand? There is a time and a place for globally co-ordinated announcements.

Does this mean improved AI squad building and transfers could be an as yet unannounced feature? Perhaps maybe SI just aren't ready to release details on future AI development directions yet.

Well its either the subtle 'get lost' response I've seen used all too often when AI is asked about, or they have actually improved it but haven't told us yet. I guess we have to wait and see but I'm suprised it didn't make headline news like Manage Anywhere if they have indeed fixed it.

[Spart]

It wouldn't surprise me too much to be honest if such a feature was announced with less fanfare than whats already been released in the promo material. Career save players and those more conscious of the wider world in their FM games probably aren't in the majority and such a feature might fall flat with more casual players.

Here's hoping anyway!

[Erimus1876]

Well if Miles stay away from answering hopefully someone from SI might venture into this thread on a whim.

I'm no AI programmer, coder or games designer, but surely creating a realistic match engine would be the hardest part of the FM experience and SI pull it off brilliantly.

In comparison you would think that imposing certain values and contexts to the behaviour and limits of an AI algorithm, or creating certain archetype behaivors or 'personalities' for AI managers (in a similar way to how agents are represented), wouldn't even come close to complexities and controlled random chaos of a football match with all its potential possible outcomes, anomalies and micro-events.

I'm hoping the AI improvements I made in the linked database make some difference to the quality and strength of AI squads in the long term, because if they do then it really shouldn't be too difficult for SI to patch in a fix. All they'd need to do is make sure any new re-gen AI manager entering the game has a minimum of 15/16 in each of the catergories I listed. Adding personalities traits would be a bonus. At the moment the gameworld is full of very poorly attributed managers which are replaced by equally as poor regen managers when they retire, its not really suprising they can't build or maintain decent squads.

[Spart]

I'm hoping the AI improvements I made in the linked database make some difference to the quality and strength of AI squads in the long term, because if they do then it really shouldn't be too difficult for SI to patch in a fix. All they'd need to do is make sure any new re-gen AI manager entering the game has a minimum of 15/16 in each of the catergories I listed. Adding personalities traits would be a bonus. At the moment the gameworld is full of very poorly attributed managers, its not really suprising they can't build or maintain decent squads.

It might even be worth giving the AI 'cheats' to compete with Human players by which I mean giving AI Managers with good stats access to certain search algorithms or data pattern analysis tools to allow them to create competitive squads, teams and tactics. Whilst this may sound like an unfair advantage, in reality, it would level the playing field as humans have their own advantages as it is with being able to read stats, assman reports and scouting reports and using our own human judgement to come to subjective and creative conclusions/solutions.

If these advantages were either limited or tempered by certain modifying AI stats (eg. domestic player bias or judging player potential) then they could even be made to appear to act like a more 'realistic' opponent.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

It might even be worth giving the AI 'cheats' to compete with Human players by which I mean giving AI Managers with good stats access to certain search algorithms or data pattern analysis tools to allow them to create competitive squads, teams and tactics. Whilst this may sound like an unfair advantage, in reality, it would level the playing field as humans have their own advantages as it is with being able to read stats, assman reports and scouting reports and using our own human judgement to come to subjective and creative conclusions/solutions.

If these advantages were either limited or tempered by certain modifying AI stats (eg. domestic player bias or judging player potential) then they could even be made to appear to act like a more 'realistic' opponent.

According to this 'the AI has the same tools that human managers do. Always has had.' we don't!

[speedas]

I've improved 245 managers - these include all the managers from the following top divisions; England, France, Germany, Italy, Holland, Portugal, Scotland and Spain, plus some high-rep out of work managers, and all the managers in the English Football League.

This is what I improved on each manager:

Their CA is 200

Their PA is 200

The following managerial attributes and tendencies are now between 16 - 20 :

Buying Players

Judging Player Ability

Judging Player Potential

Squad Rotation

Working with Youngsters

Spends a lot on Youth Signings

Signs a lot of Youth Players

Will use Young Players in Low Priority Cup Matches

Will fit Players into a Preferred Tactic

I'm hoping the 245 improved AI managers will now buy more players of sufficient quality (judging player ability & potential), and rotate their squads more often so younger players and fringe players get match practice and therefore improve.

AI managers should also buy more youth and younger players and help develop them (working with youngsters) and by rotating and playing them in minor cup competitions.

They should also try and fit their best players into the managers preferred tactic instead of leaving them out of the first 11 all the time (eg. too many world class AMC's not getting a game, hopefully now they will?).

Thats the theory anyway.

I haven't had time to holiday enough seasons to see if the AI clubs have improved so if anyone wants to give it a try and start a long term game and let us know if AI squads remain strong for more than just the first few seasons, you can download the database here...

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=89SBBCE5

This is the wally13 summer transfers update + my own full club names update, and now the improved AI managers update all merged into one. So its quite large and may take a few minutes to load into your editor or when you set up a new game using it.

Great work, waiting for the evolution of your party. Anyone else tried to change AI managers for improve the difficulty of FM ?

Personally, I also will try to take poor coaches without contracts and make very great coaches in various style for big clubs (about 10 super coaches).

[Pelgrane]

Signed, the AI needs fixing above all other aspects of the game, none of the announced new 'features' are of any importance.

[Danielos]

I agree with you guys.

Here's the thing though. SI would never say this themselves, but there's no incentive to fix these problems. Changing the game to maintain it's quality for long term saves will just make people less likely to buy a new FM every year, not to mention taking away resources that can be used to improve more obvious aspects of the game that WILL make people want to buy the new game.

Interesting...

I complained in another thread that SI was greedy to milk the franchise with new versions of FM every year, and your post kind of reinforced that belief.

So please...

Properly fix everything in the game until a new major sequel is released. Release new sequels with 2-3 years interval.

[Chris22]

i have just started to test mine spent all day editing managers from a round the world

These are the Nation's i have been Editing

England,Germany,France,Holland,Denmark,Scotland,Spain,Italy,Brazil,Argentina,Mexico,

Norway,Portugal,Russia,Belgium,Turkey,Greece,Ukraine, And Loads of Unemployed Manager

[Spart]

I agree with you guys.

Here's the thing though. SI would never say this themselves, but there's no incentive to fix these problems. Changing the game to maintain it's quality for long term saves will just make people less likely to buy a new FM every year, not to mention taking away resources that can be used to improve more obvious aspects of the game that WILL make people want to buy the new game.

Interesting...

I complained in another thread that SI was greedy to milk the franchise with new versions of FM every year, and your post kind of reinforced that belief.

So please...

Properly fix everything in the game until a new major sequel is released. Release new sequels with 2-3 years interval.

I'd be wary of making a lack of AI manager development sound like some kind of money printing conspiracy. If it were true that SI were only interested in making short term cash cows with no potential for long-term play then they wouldn't have implemented Dynamic League Rep or constantly redeveloped the Regen/Newgen systems over the years. You still see support for older FM titles on these very forums too. If SI only cared about making a quick £ off the next release you wouldn't see any of the above.

[milnerpoint]

There is plenty incentive for them to improve the game, first and foremost they are all fans of the game, they want the game to be as goods as possible for their own enjoyment, secondly, it will keep them in a job in the long run.

No one seems to recognize that improving the AI is not going to be as simple as pressing a smarter Ai button, and it is quite possible that with the current level of technology the standard FM player uses its not that possible to make it that much more resource intense.

One thing you can all be certain of, SI are not burying their head in the sand or ignoring what is said on the forums regarding this, its well documented thread wise and a lot of the Dev's read the forums regularly, oh and baiting Miles on Twitter is not going to reveal anything they are working on, when SI are ready to announce anything they will.

[Spart]

There is plenty incentive for them to improve the game, first and foremost they are all fans of the game, they want the game to be as goods as possible for their own enjoyment, secondly, it will keep them in a job in the long run.

No one seems to recognize that improving the AI is not going to be as simple as pressing a smarter Ai button, and it is quite possible that with the current level of technology the standard FM player uses its not that possible to make it that much more resource intense.

One thing you can all be certain of, SI are not burying their head in the sand or ignoring what is said on the forums regarding this, its well documented thread wise and a lot of the Dev's read the forums regularly, oh and baiting Miles on Twitter is not going to reveal anything they are working on, when SI are ready to announce anything they will.

Of course. If it were such an easy thing to fix it would have already been sorted long ago.

I don't know about anyone else, but if the AI can't be made 'smarter' then i personally wouldn't mind it being given certain shortcuts, or 'cheats' for want of a better term, in the meantime. Not sure if such a practise would go against SI's vision for the game or make AI behaviour too rigid and systematic.

Either way, as niggling as it can be, AI squad management hasn't stopped me enjoying FM2011 or the earlier games. It's not like you get into the 2020's and every game is winnable 53-0!

[speedas]

There is plenty incentive for them to improve the game, first and foremost they are all fans of the game, they want the game to be as goods as possible for their own enjoyment, secondly, it will keep them in a job in the long run.

No one seems to recognize that improving the AI is not going to be as simple as pressing a smarter Ai button, and it is quite possible that with the current level of technology the standard FM player uses its not that possible to make it that much more resource intense.

One thing you can all be certain of, SI are not burying their head in the sand or ignoring what is said on the forums regarding this, its well documented thread wise and a lot of the Dev's read the forums regularly, oh and baiting Miles on Twitter is not going to reveal anything they are working on, when SI are ready to announce anything they will.

Nobody say the otherwise. Even if I admit it's very annoying to see essential evolutions like AI in FM serie is ridiculous when Sega/SI prefer develop boring press conferences or agents system.

[Neil Brock]

There is plenty incentive for them to improve the game, first and foremost they are all fans of the game, they want the game to be as goods as possible for their own enjoyment, secondly, it will keep them in a job in the long run.

No one seems to recognize that improving the AI is not going to be as simple as pressing a smarter Ai button, and it is quite possible that with the current level of technology the standard FM player uses its not that possible to make it that much more resource intense.

One thing you can all be certain of, SI are not burying their head in the sand or ignoring what is said on the forums regarding this, its well documented thread wise and a lot of the Dev's read the forums regularly, oh and baiting Miles on Twitter is not going to reveal anything they are working on, when SI are ready to announce anything they will.

This pretty much. It's an absolutely massive area of the game which is very very difficult to balance and get right. These types of things are never ignored and they have gradually been improving over the years since the days of CM and early FM games - it was only in more recent versions that the AI learnt to look at players who could potentially be very good in the future - prior to that it was a free for all for users to sign all the best young players. Of course it's not perfect, but we're always trying to improve these kinds of areas within the game.

[Erimus1876]

This pretty much. It's an absolutely massive area of the game which is very very difficult to balance and get right. These types of things are never ignored and they have gradually been improving over the years since the days of CM and early FM games - it was only in more recent versions that the AI learnt to look at players who could potentially be very good in the future - prior to that it was a free for all for users to sign all the best young players. Of course it's not perfect, but we're always trying to improve these kinds of areas within the game.

I think most people can accept this. Its the lack of feedback we get from you guys regarding the AI thats frustrating. It does sometimes feel as though you avoid talking about it which makes it frustrating to those who like playing longer career games. While you're here can you tell us if we're wasting our time creating wonder-managers in our DB's to alleviate some of the problems with poor AI squad building?

On a more serious note, do you think the new Manage Anywhere feature will encourage more players to play longer saves? If it does a lot more people may be asking for improved AI for FM12/13!

[milnerpoint]

Nobody say the otherwise. Even if I admit it's very annoying to see essential evolutions like AI in FM serie is ridiculous when Sega/SI prefer develop boring press conferences or agents system.

They are not going to pull the entire Dev team and put them working on the AI, so there will always be new features being worked on. Even if they did pull the whole team onto one part of the game there are no guarentee's in improving it indefinately. I'm pretty sure it will have its own team of programmers working on it, even if its not announced in the first post about the game.

[Spart]

I think most people can accept this. Its the lack of feedback we get from you guys regarding the AI thats frustrating. It does sometimes feel as though you avoid talking about it which makes it frustrating to those who like playing longer career games. While you're here can you tell us if we're wasting our time creating wonder-managers in our DB's to alleviate some of the problems with poor AI squad building?

On a more serious note, do you think the new Manage Anywhere feature will encourage more players to play longer saves? If it does a lot more people may be asking for improved AI for FM12/13!

Agreed, and its also another great example of SI developing for the long-term save

Artificially retarding their own game's development for profit... ridiculous suggestion.

[milnerpoint]

the dev's used to post a lot more, but they got dogs abuse from forum memebers so they dont seem to post as much, understandable really it does SI no good having their employees arguing with customers.

[Spart]

idiots always ruin it for the rest and SI can't do right for wrong around here at the best of times.

back onto what Miles said though, in terms of the AI having all the tools available to it that we do, hopefully that's a sign that SI have already looked at how to implement scouting and assman information analysis so that the AI can spot gaps of quality and cover in their squads, prioritising signings accordingly. Maybe not for this year (i can live in hope!) but for future development down the line.

[x42bn6]

the dev's used to post a lot more, but they got dogs abuse from forum memebers so they dont seem to post as much

Where did you get that one conclusion from?

[milnerpoint]

yeah hopefully so, like everyone else i would to see this side of things improved, i only play long term games i dont really enjoy the first few seasons, i like it better when looking for regens so its a very important side of things for me, i definately think it will have improved in FM12 but i wont be expecting revolutionary AI who can match a human player in terms of thinking.

[milnerpoint]

Where did you get that one conclusion from?

because they used to post a lot more, got abuse from forum members and now dont post as much......

[Spart]

yeah hopefully so, like everyone else i would to see this side of things improved, i only play long term games i dont really enjoy the first few seasons, i like it better when looking for regens so its a very important side of things for me, i definately think it will have improved in FM12 but i wont be expecting revolutionary AI who can match a human player in terms of thinking.

ha, i don't think i'd want that! i've already got enough bogey teams as it is.

[Erimus1876]

Nice one, thanks. I'd like to see some squads 3 seasons in aswell if not too much trouble.

Here's my current save at the end of the 3rd season.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1WAMUQ2D

You may want to play through a few more seasons though to get a better idea wether the wonder-managers are having any effect on developing players and AI squad strengths. There should still be plenty left in the game by then to see what they've been up to.

[milnerpoint]

ha, i don't think i'd want that! i've already got enough bogey teams as it is.

tell me about it, 6 chamion league semi finals against man city, 6 losses, god i hate city.

[Erimus1876]

tell me about it, 6 chamion league semi finals against man city, 6 losses, god i hate city.

MK Dons are mine. They always beat me 1-0 no matter which team I am

[Spart]

tell me about it, 6 chamion league semi finals against man city, 6 losses, god i hate city.

my Blackpool of the future (Lancashire's answer to Barcelona i'll have you know) can battle with the best of them, but City are like our kryptonite. The most annoying part is that they're not even THAT competitive in the league and yet always seem to do us over. Gutted.

[x42bn6]

because they used to post a lot more, got abuse from forum members and now dont post as much......

Correlation does not imply causation. They could just be busy.

Developers should always be talking to their customers, no matter how angry they are.

[whilewolf]

This pretty much. It's an absolutely massive area of the game which is very very difficult to balance and get right. These types of things are never ignored and they have gradually been improving over the years since the days of CM and early FM games - it was only in more recent versions that the AI learnt to look at players who could potentially be very good in the future - prior to that it was a free for all for users to sign all the best young players. Of course it's not perfect, but we're always trying to improve these kinds of areas within the game.

Thank you for your reply. Its good to hear that the AI is constantly being revised.

I think the reason that people get infuriated and develop conspiracy theories is that some obvious holes in the AI go unaddressed for years. AI teams letting their good young players rot in the reserves until the established stars retire has been a problem since at least FM05 and probably before.

While others like the balanced squad building look like they should be easy to solve. At the start of the transfer window the AI looks at the preferred formations sees what positions they require. Looks at the squad and if there isn't a player who is at least 16/20 in one of the positions the formation uses target a players in that position before all else.

[Spart]

Developers should always be talking to their customers, no matter how angry they are.

Says who? Even if this were a customer service point, some of the abuse dished out my manchilds is frankly ridiculous and would result in terminated calls/denial of service in other situations.

[x42bn6]

Says who? Even if this were a customer service point, some of the abuse dished out my manchilds is frankly ridiculous and would result in terminated calls/denial of service in other situations.

It's called good customer service.

I'd note that it's not quite the same in some pure customer service jobs since there is no ongoing rapport day-to-day (unless there is a serious issue, in which case there are bigger problems than a lack of customer service). A lot of support calls are one-off. If a company is interested in building a client relationship, however, it should be talking to customers (and asking why they are angry!).

Developers, however never talk to their customers enough. It's a bad habit since nobody likes criticism.

[Spart]

It's called good customer service.

I'd note that it's not quite the same in some pure customer service jobs since there is no ongoing rapport day-to-day (unless there is a serious issue, in which case there are bigger problems than a lack of customer service). A lot of support calls are one-off. If a company is interested in building a client relationship, however, it should be talking to customers (and asking why they are angry!).

Developers, however never talk to their customers enough. It's a bad habit since nobody likes criticism.

Sly digs? C'mon now.

Look at the majority of games developers and their relationships/interactions with the player base. SI are VERY good compared to most and often develop aspects of the game in response to player feedback (newgens, dynamic league rep, add/subtract leagues, 3D match engine etc.). Forums are not customer service points and its your own fault for feeling that for viewing them as such. This is a player community to discuss the game not an online customer service counter. At best its tech support!

...and even if it were a customer service point, the customer, in my experience, is rarely ever right.

Massed feedback is useful, yes, but those angry individuals with inflated senses of entitlement, that mouthy customers and abusive forum members so often are, hardly ever want constructive solutions and instead expect the impossible NOW. Look at the amount of bile thrown out of the prams as soon as each FM is released each year. Whilst there may be bugs and glitches, the venom shot out is completely insane and if SI did delay release to sort them, they'd feel just as much heat from the usual suspects. Look at how the mob react when a patch slips a few days! Another example are the semi-conspiracy theories being brewed up across these two threads today rather accept that AI might just be quite difficult to get right.

What do you expect from a development team whose job it is to design and create games, not massage fragile consumer egos that lash out at them with every other issue? SI can't do right for doing wrong.

[themadsheep2001]

Sly digs? C'mon now.

Look at the majority of games developers and their relationships/interactions with the player base. SI are VERY good compared to most and often develop aspects of the game in response to player feedback (newgens, dynamic league rep, add/subtract leagues, 3D match engine etc.). Forums are not customer service points and its your own fault for feeling that for viewing them as such. This is a player community to discuss the game not an online customer service counter. At best its tech support!

...and even if it were a customer service point, the customer, in my experience, is rarely ever right.

Massed feedback is useful, yes, but those angry individuals with inflated senses of entitlement, that mouthy customers and abusive forum members so often are, hardly ever want constructive solutions and instead expect the impossible NOW. Look at the amount of bile thrown out of the prams as soon as each FM is released each year. Whilst there may be bugs and glitches, the venom shot out is completely insane and if SI did delay release to sort them, they'd feel just as much heat from the usual suspects. Look at how the mob react when a patch slips a few days! Another example are the semi-conspiracy theories being brewed up across these two threads today rather accept that AI might just be quite difficult to get right.

What do you expect from a development team whose job it is to design and create games, not massage fragile consumer egos that lash out at them with every other issue? SI can't do right for doing wrong.

Couldnt have said it any better.

[Robert the Spud]

Yeah, this thread isn't really for talking about bogey teams or SI feedback policy.

Some people are doing very good work here and experimenting, can we not have that swamped and lost by writing about customers/developers/bogey teams?

Erismus, the file says 'temporarily unavailable'. Will try and D/ld later, thanks..

[x42bn6]

Sly digs? C'mon now.

Where?

Look at the majority of games developers and their relationships/interactions with the player base. SI are VERY good compared to most and often develop aspects of the game in response to player feedback (newgens, dynamic league rep, add/subtract leagues, 3D match engine etc.). Forums are not customer service points and its your own fault for feeling that for viewing them as such. This is a player community to discuss the game not an online customer service counter. At best its tech support!

I never said SI were bad - let's get that one up front.

You're right it's not a customer service counter - I never said that too! ("I'd note that it's not quite the same in some pure customer service jobs...")

...and even if it were a customer service point, the customer, in my experience, is rarely ever right.

Horrific statement to make. The customer is always* right. They may seem to have got some issues wrong, but that just means your product wasn't clear enough.

I use "*" because it is only false when the business no longer wants that customer - for example, they are convicted of stealing from your shop, or the user is so controversial that it is bad for the business to have that customer. There are few cases where this actually happens, and even less so for a video game. The moderators ban anyone who is extremely abusive, which is acceptable - but then again, if they are that angry, they are likely not to be customers of the game in the future anyway - a "win-win" of sorts.

However, a "fussy" or "angry" customer is still a customer, and oddly enough, is still right. If you want business, you have to pander to all of them - the easy ones and the difficult ones.

If you start loosening the idea that the customer is right, then a business ends up "choosing" its customers - a rather dangerous scenario, since it naturally isolates criticism ("ban them!").

Massed feedback is useful, yes, but those angry individuals with inflated senses of entitlement, that mouthy customers and abusive forum members so often are, hardly ever want constructive solutions and instead expect the impossible NOW. Look at the amount of bile thrown out of the prams as soon as each FM is released each year. Whilst there may be bugs and glitches, the venom shot out is completely insane and if SI did delay release to sort them, they'd feel just as much heat from the usual suspects. Look at how the mob react when a patch slips a few days! Another example are the semi-conspiracy theories being brewed up across these two threads today rather accept that AI might just be quite difficult to get right.

Do you not think they are angry for a good reason? Customers don't have to be constructive - they don't have to be. You develop a piece of software - your job is to serve your consumer base. It just so happens some of your consumer base is angry.

Some of the venom might be warranted - glaring bugs, or bugs that have been in previous iterations, for example. These customers are right - there's bugs! These customers are angry - quite rightly! They aren't wrong in any way. If SI can't deliver some bug fixes because of a lack of time, then the customer is still right - there's bugs!

A patch release date has slipped and people get angry? They're right! You promised date X - and delivered it late. You've inconvenienced your consumer base. They are right to be angry.

Now, all of us have "preferred" customers - clearly, a customer who has an issue but sends you an email with nearly all the information required to diagnose the issue, is polite and friendly, and is very responsive without being annoying, is clearly the ideal customer to handle. That's perfectly fine. However, not everyone is an angel. Some are less angelic; some are nasty; some are abusive. To me, nasty customers are still nasty, since if I implement all their desires, they will be happy. They're right - the game should be awesome, and it's not awesome enough for them.

What do you expect from a development team whose job it is to design and create games, not massage fragile consumer egos that lash out at them with every other issue? SI can't do right for doing wrong.

To design and create games, you have to... Talk to your customers.

You don't build a game in isolation, to what you (a developer) thinks is right - you build a game to your customers' expectations. You cannot do this without talking to your customers - no matter how angry they are!

----

So why do a lot of people think "the customer rarely right" is actually fine? Because the customer is rarely someone you'd want to talk to after a long, hard day at work, who is likely to ask you a trivial question that will inevitably descend into "Why isn't your product clear enough?" To me, that's not the customer being "wrong" - that's the customer not making me happy. What's in it for me to talk to this customer? Nothing (besides the threat of losing my job). That's what makes customer service so difficult - you have to bend over backwards for a customer.

Now, of course, no company is ever able to satisfy 100% of its consumer base. They certainly don't, however, treat customers as if they are wrong. The trick is to satisfy most of the consumer base, and underpromise and overdeliver to satisfy the rest. Make customers feel special. Turn angry customers into satisfied customers.

But you cannot do that with an attitude of "the customer is rarely right".

[Spart]

Apologies for the derails.

I was having the same problem too Thom-Spurs85 with the download but it appears to be working now for me now!

[Erimus1876]

Yeah, this thread isn't really for talking about bogey teams or SI feedback policy.

Some people are doing very good work here and experimenting, can we not have that swamped and lost by writing about customers/developers/bogey teams?

Erismus, the file says 'temporarily unavailable'. Will try and D/ld later, thanks..

They're now on File Front too, here...

EDIT: [Deleted - updated version will be uploaded shortly]

[milnerpoint]

Sly digs? C'mon now.

Look at the majority of games developers and their relationships/interactions with the player base. SI are VERY good compared to most and often develop aspects of the game in response to player feedback (newgens, dynamic league rep, add/subtract leagues, 3D match engine etc.). Forums are not customer service points and its your own fault for feeling that for viewing them as such. This is a player community to discuss the game not an online customer service counter. At best its tech support!

...and even if it were a customer service point, the customer, in my experience, is rarely ever right.

Massed feedback is useful, yes, but those angry individuals with inflated senses of entitlement, that mouthy customers and abusive forum members so often are, hardly ever want constructive solutions and instead expect the impossible NOW. Look at the amount of bile thrown out of the prams as soon as each FM is released each year. Whilst there may be bugs and glitches, the venom shot out is completely insane and if SI did delay release to sort them, they'd feel just as much heat from the usual suspects. Look at how the mob react when a patch slips a few days! Another example are the semi-conspiracy theories being brewed up across these two threads today rather accept that AI might just be quite difficult to get right.

What do you expect from a development team whose job it is to design and create games, not massage fragile consumer egos that lash out at them with every other issue? SI can't do right for doing wrong.

exactly very well said.

For what its worth i have been doing what has been described in this thread for years now, any manager who takes over any of the top 6 in my league is changed to a world class manager, it didnt seem to make a huge difference until i pumped £50m into each club, now they are stealing players from under my nose and everyone of the top 6 has a very good squad, its not perfect but it does help to an extent.

[milnerpoint]

Do you not think they are angry for a good reason? Customers don't have to be constructive - they don't have to be. You develop a piece of software - your job is to serve your consumer base. It just so happens some of your consumer base is angry.

Some of the venom might be warranted - glaring bugs, or bugs that have been in previous iterations, for example. These customers are right - there's bugs! These customers are angry - quite rightly! They aren't wrong in any way. If SI can't deliver some bug fixes because of a lack of time, then the customer is still right - there's bugs!

So its ok to be rude and agressive and spit out venum at people because your unhappy with their service?! Would you find it acceptable if you worked in a shop and i was your customer, and you gave me the wrong change so i screamed and shouted in your face, and called you every name under the sun, whilst making threatening remarks? You wouldnt find that unacceptable and would fully understand my frustrations yes? Just because this is the internet, does not make it ok to forget about respect and manors.

[Sleepydude]

Let's keep this thread on topic please guys.

[Robert the Spud]

Yeah, on topic for the love of God. Do PM's if you want to talk off topic, we're trying stuff out here and don't want the thread closed. Cheers.

[speedas]

They are not going to pull the entire Dev team and put them working on the AI, so there will always be new features being worked on. Even if they did pull the whole team onto one part of the game there are no guarentee's in improving it indefinately. I'm pretty sure it will have its own team of programmers working on it, even if its not announced in the first post about the game.

I know but I'm sure it's also a question of strategy and will (it's more interesting for Sega to focus money in new commercial features than debugging for example). Because how is it possible that consumers have to wait since FM 2007 for SI reviews his defective reputation system with its huge bugs in 2011 (for a disappointing result indeed) ?

[Spart]

They're now on File Front too, here...

Saved Game:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20708262/END+OF+SEASON+2012-13.fm

Database:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/20708273/DB50.dbc

What year would you like us to holiday up to? I'm in 2015 atm.

[Erimus1876]

What year would you like us to holiday up to? I'm in 2015 atm.

Well its really up to you. I'm going to holiday to about the 10th season, and holiday my old save (regular DB with no edited managers) to the same date and then try and compare the two to see if its made any difference to AI squad strength. There should still be plenty of the modified managers left in the game after 10 seasons.

Thing is though, its still only a temporary fix if it works since all 245 managers will eventually retire and be replaced by crappy ones again. But I've noticed you can add people to the database with a birthdate set into the furure (upto the year 2100) so it may be able to create lots of excellent young managers and have them come into the game on regular intervals - I've never tested that yet though. Would be cool if it worked!