10.3 So Frustrating

[lfc 4 ever]

i have to agree with the openin poster i have also gone back to the other patch. it prob is my training or something but am gettin 2 many injuries an dont have the time to mess with the training and then the tactics am glad for the people that like 10.3 as i no si would of done there best on it but just wasnt for me

[Cougar2010]

on 10.2 i scored over 100 goals in the league, installed 10.3 used the same tactics that dominated the league the year before, added a world class goalie in ochoa in the scottish league and now they cant score no where near as many goals, its clearly the match engine design thats preventing this no?

A) The opposition changed their tactics against you as you scored 100 goals the previous season.

B) To score 100 goals you possibly took advantage of a bug in the ME that was fixed in 10.3

C) Signing GKs doesn't help you score goals

[Veg1ta]

how did i take advantage of the match engine? most of my goals came from open play with pedro mendes setting up 44 goals that season and kris boyd my top goal scorer getting 35 goals.

[Phraz]

Very nice.

Ive just started a leeds game this is my team:

................fonseca...........obolo

.........................sanchez

..snodgrass.....brellier......howson......namouchi

..........glauber.... verkhotsev.... shilla

............................viera

Beat exeter 4-0 in the first game, should walk the league!

Howson is a beast. First team player for first two seasons in the Premiership. I sold him and now he's moved to Spurs in like 2017. Just made his Elland Road return.

[Dees-Blake]

Someone call in the waaambulance...

Wah wah I am not winning every single game 5-0 wah wah I have 15 on target shots so I should score at least 8 of them wah wah wah I have so many injuries wah wah wah.

Why don't you go play FIFA Manager or something?

[Jay-Producer]

ill be the first to say it then: tactics

How an earth can it be his tactics if he has said he gets 15 clear shots at goal. It has nothing to do with that because thousands of other people experience the same problems.

[Jay-Producer]

I've had one red card in two seasons, win percentage of 70% and rarely score less than 2 goals a game. I'm loving 10.3.

If your Arsenal no wonder. Try saying that with the likes of Dumbarton.

[Jay-Producer]

I find it funny that when people come out with, its your tactics when someone creates 20 chances, considering they go the worlds best teams its hardly ironic that they are crushing teams and others are struggling. Common sense would tell you, your gona beat the likes if Wolves if you are Arsenal.

[Cougar2010]

How an earth can it be his tactics if he has said he gets 15 clear shots at goal. It has nothing to do with that because thousands of other people experience the same problems.

He didn't say he got 15 CCCs if thats what you are getting at.

Just because someone has a lot of possession and more shots doesn't mean they win in RL so why should it in FM?

[MeesterCat]

I've just read the OP and to be honest I don't see anything wrong.

- Knocks and injuries: you're playing football, a contact sport, you will get knocks and injuries.

- Straight red cards: I believe I've seen players sent off in football games before.

- Players getting upset: Football players with their egos... I think you'll find they're bound to get upset!

- went 5 games in a row, struggled to win. Yet won: Uhm, and you're complaining?

- 20+ chances on goal, but only scoring 1 or 2 goals:

I'm guessing you're Rangers or Celtic? With your higher rep, the other teams are probably sitting back and defending deep, forcing your players to take long shots, which of course are going to have a much lower % of success. In such situations, I find that setting the team to Control and using the Exploit the Flanks shout often works. If they break away and score with their only chance, then their tactic is working perfectly! I daresay you would do the same if you found yourself up against Barcelona (and congratulate yourself on a successful tactic)

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

Howson is a beast. First team player for first two seasons in the Premiership. I sold him and now he's moved to Spurs in like 2017. Just made his Elland Road return.

Ye hes terrific

Unbeliveable how many assists he gets!

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

Personnel first, tactics after? How do you explain Bolton remaining in the premiership for so long?? It's not like they've got top quality players that will outplay everyone else regardless of what tactics they're set out to employ..... or Real Madrid having possibly one of the best collectives of individuals in the worldbut not being able to get past the 1st knockout stage of the Champions League for the past 6 years? .........Possibly the most idiotic statement I've seen this week (And That's saying something considering some of the threads that have popped up in here recently).

Any team can win any game of football if the tactics they employ are stuck to perfectly...... Why do you think there are so many upsets in the cups? Because teams play to their strengths, its the job of the manager to recognise strengths & weaknesses and improve them or take advantage of them.....

So tactics are more important than personnel....... And I think the majority would agree, you can have a player that may win a game with a moment of brilliance, but your team could win the game a completely different way without that player.....

Haha but Bolton needed the correct PERSONEL to deploy those tactics without the likes of Davies/nicky hunt/nolan/ sly diouf, they wouldnt have been able to deploy those tactics! They needed tough/hard and the odd sly player..........

And even with the best tactics ever, bolton were never able to challenge for anything was they.... Personel first then tactics.... any fool knows that.

And your goin on about suprise cup results for instance, in a one off game anything can happen, big team taking little team lightly, little team gets fired up for it, little team gets all luck or goalie plays a blinder...

And regarding real madrid, ye they got knocked out of a cup competion in the knock out stage, IT HAPPENS, lets see where they finnish in the league, something tells me top 2, then that proves that personel is most important

[Jay-Producer]

He didn't say he got 15 CCCs if thats what you are getting at.

Just because someone has a lot of possession and more shots doesn't mean they win in RL so why should it in FM?

Celtic manage no problem.

[Smurf]

I don't find 10.3 frustrating (not read all the posts or any of them for that matter).

Anyway, I started a new game with Leeds United, and besides Man City being greedy beggars, I have no issues. I have taken Leeds to the Champions League and currently am in the last 16, in just 4 seasons.

It's great fun. Although it near broke my heart when I had to sell Jermaine Beckford. And letting Howson and Snodgrass go wasn't easy for me either

But all good. Doing well and onwards and upwards.

[Cougar2010]

Celtic manage no problem.

Celtic manage what no problem? win matches?

The same Celtic that have drawn six & lost six in the league this season and thats before you include European results.

[CMOZZA]

Haha but Bolton needed the correct PERSONEL to deploy those tactics without the likes of Davies/nicky hunt/nolan/ sly diouf, they wouldnt have been able to deploy those tactics! They needed tough/hard and the odd sly player..........

And even with the best tactics ever, bolton were never able to challenge for anything was they.... Personel first then tactics.... any fool knows that.

And your goin on about suprise cup results for instance, in a one off game anything can happen, big team taking little team lightly, little team gets fired up for it, little team gets all luck or goalie plays a blinder...

And regarding real madrid, ye they got knocked out of a cup competion in the knock out stage, IT HAPPENS, lets see where they finnish in the league, something tells me top 2, then that proves that personel is most important

So you're adamant that it's the quality of players that are more important than the tactics?

Explain to me then why Chelsea have won pretty much bugger all since Mourinho left? Pretty much the same personnel, just playing a different way.

[Veg1ta]

chelsea team isnt the exact same, personal is slightly different, they had players like robben when they won under mourinho since hes a magical player who makes things happen, exactly the type of player chelsea are missing now and i think jose mourinho knew that.

its the unpredictiable win lose draw scenario on 10.3 no matter what team i field or who am playing i never quite know what am going to get, plus injuries are well stupid on this patch, u cant deny it or ur just pure lucky, i get slight knocks nearly everygame ruining any chance of continuity and momentum i had at that present time in the game before they happen, u always have to sub them and crap, plus ive had a look at the current injury table in the league on 10.3 and like 7 clubs have like 9 to 10 players out with injuries, rooney for 3 months and gerrard for 2 months just to name a few.

for the tactics vs personal debate which is more important, well of course personal is since u can have the best tactic in the world be a mastermind tactician but be in control of a team like cambridge utd and u ent going to beat a team like barcelona even if they didnt have a manager and just had there 11 world class players playing where they want.

to win in this game id say its 60% players and 40% tactics.

[edgar555]

chelsea team isnt the exact same, personal is slightly different, they had players like robben when they won under mourinho since hes a magical player who makes things happen, exactly the type of player chelsea are missing now and i think jose mourinho knew that.

its the unpredictiable win lose draw scenario on 10.3 no matter what team i field or who am playing i never quite know what am going to get, plus injuries are well stupid on this patch, u cant deny it or ur just pure lucky, i get slight knocks nearly everygame ruining any chance of continuity and momentum i had at that present time in the game before they happen, u always have to sub them and crap, plus ive had a look at the current injury table in the league on 10.3 and like 7 clubs have like 9 to 10 players out with injuries, rooney for 3 months and gerrard for 2 months just to name a few.

for the tactics vs personal debate which is more important, well of course personal is since u can have the best tactic in the world be a mastermind tactician but be in control of a team like cambridge utd and u ent going to beat a team like barcelona even if they didnt have a manager and just had there 11 world class players playing where they want.

to win in this game id say its 60% players and 40% tactics.

Chelsea have Joe Cole if they choose to use him.

Poor argument, they have pretty much the same team. Robben was injured 90% of the time anyway. I've said all I'm going to on injuries on 10.3 in other threads, but concisely, they are bang on if you train/rotate/rest players properly.

[Keitan]

It's not 100% tactics OR 100% players, its a balance of the two.

Mourinho won things with Chelsea about 3-4 years ago now, alot has changed in their team so that's a poor argument really.

And Joe Cole gets injured way more then Robben ever did..

You really think its all about tactics in real life? if Mourinho went to Havant and Waterloovile would they win every match 20-0? doubt it :\

[edgar555]

Just like Inter win every game 20-0? Thats a poor argument also.

[Veg1ta]

robben made 102 app for chelsea, not a bad return for a player who gets hacked alot 44 of those coming in the 2005-06 season when chelsea retained the premier league title.

[Cometdude]

chelsea team isnt the exact same, personal is slightly different, they had players like robben when they won under mourinho since hes a magical player who makes things happen, exactly the type of player chelsea are missing now and i think jose mourinho knew that.

its the unpredictiable win lose draw scenario on 10.3 no matter what team i field or who am playing i never quite know what am going to get, plus injuries are well stupid on this patch, u cant deny it or ur just pure lucky, i get slight knocks nearly everygame ruining any chance of continuity and momentum i had at that present time in the game before they happen, u always have to sub them and crap, plus ive had a look at the current injury table in the league on 10.3 and like 7 clubs have like 9 to 10 players out with injuries, rooney for 3 months and gerrard for 2 months just to name a few.

for the tactics vs personal debate which is more important, well of course personal is since u can have the best tactic in the world be a mastermind tactician but be in control of a team like cambridge utd and u ent going to beat a team like barcelona even if they didnt have a manager and just had there 11 world class players playing where they want.

to win in this game id say its 60% players and 40% tactics.

So if Barca had no manager and stuck out 11 players and told them to play in any old way you think they would beat a team managed by a world class tactician, even if they are Cambridge? I don't think so. Just the fact that you have to the right players in the correct position ie. GK in goal or ST up front mean tactics are more important than having world class players. Just look at the threads that have been posted here in the past where people are having trouble getting Tevez to score or world class keepers to keep clean sheets. A well organised and tactically proficient side will always fair better than a thrown together collection of quality players, the key is to try and have both.

[Veg1ta]

dont be stupid when u say crap like teven in goals, i dont mean that at all, obvisley messi would play somewhere in midfield or attack since he is an attacking player, which postion in those part of the field doesnt really matter against a team far below there standard.

look at the end of the day quality of players is more important that tactics which is evident when u go low division teams and try to get promoted through the leagues, if u didnt improve the players u wouldnt get anywhere.

[Cometdude]

Read my post again.

I didn't say Tevez in goal.

So if quality players is all that matters how do you explain why Real madrid are out of the Champions League and not winning every game in La Liga? Or why Chelsea couldn't beat Blackburn last night ?

[Veg1ta]

am just pointing out when i say play anywhere i dont mean as in players like tevez in goals, and real madrid play teams at the same quality as themselfs hardly in comparrison of barcelona and cambridge utd is it?

[Cometdude]

am just pointing out when i say play anywhere i dont mean as in players like tevez in goals, and real madrid play teams at the same quality as themselfs hardly in comparrison of barcelona and cambridge utd is it?

I didn't say it was, I was merely pointing out that there is an awful lot more to football than quality players. I would argue that on paper Real have the strongest team in Europe but the reality is when they are on the pitch it doesn't pan out that way.

[CMOZZA]

It's not 100% tactics OR 100% players, its a balance of the two.

Mourinho won things with Chelsea about 3-4 years ago now, alot has changed in their team so that's a poor argument really.

And Joe Cole gets injured way more then Robben ever did..

You really think its all about tactics in real life? if Mourinho went to Havant and Waterloovile would they win every match 20-0? doubt it :\

Cheslea under Mourinho (07) (I have underlined players still at the club)

CECH, Petr

CUDICINI, Carlo

HILARIO

Defenders :

BRIDGE, Wayne

ALEX

CARVALHO, Ricardo

BELLETTI, Juliano

IVANOVIC, Branislav

COLE, Ashley

GEREMI

TERRY, John

FERREIRA, Paulo

Midfielders :

COLE, Joe

MALOUDA, Florent

ESSIEN, Michael

LAMPARD, Frank

MAKELELE, Claude

ROBBEN, Arjen

WRIGHT-PHILLIPS, Shaun

BALLACK, Michael

OBI, Mikel John

Strikers :

DROGBA, Dider

KALOU, Salomon

PIZARRO, Claudio

SHEVCHENKO, Andriy

Now, Chelsea's Starting XI at Blackburn at the weekend:

Turnbull, Ferreira, Terry, Alex, Ivanovic, Malouda, Mikel, Lampard, Kalou, Anelka, Drogba

2 players started that weren't in Mourinho's squad, and if Cech was fit it would've been 1. And Anelka has actually added something to the team in most people's opinions, including mine..... so obviously much hasn't changed. Other than the manager and tactics......

[Veg1ta]

yes which is why i said 60% players 40% tactics, obvisley its not 100% players but top class players are more important than a tactic, if playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions lower than themselfs.

when 2 teams are quite similar in stature and quality then tactics why be more relevent.

chelsea didnt win the league in 07 nor did mourinho stay long, if u cpmpare the 05/06 team u will see a difference, plus players age and get worse, alot of players where in there prime in 05/06 but are not in there prime now, ie: lampard terry and alot more on ur list.

[Cometdude]

yes which is why i said 60% players 40% tactics, obvisley its not 100% players but top class players are more important than a tactic, if playing against teams 2 or 3 divisions lower than themselfs.

when 2 teams are quite similar in stature and quality then tactics why be more relevent.

chelsea didnt win the league in 07 nor did mourinho stay long, if u cpmpare the 05/06 team u will see a difference, plus players age and get worse, alot of players where in there prime in 05/06 but are not in there prime now, ie: lampard terry and alot more on ur list.

Tactics are only relevent when the two teams are "similar in stature" ? So how do you explain every time a top clubs goes out of a cup competition to a lower league club? The best example I can remember is when Donny knocked Villa out of the league cup beating them three nil. We didn't have anywhere near the quality that they had BUT we were tactically superior.

Using your theory though would mean that either a) Doncaster had and equally talented squad as Villa and so tactics were more relevent, or b) Doncaster had a team that is far superior to Villas and so were going to win regardless of the tactics used.

Do you see a flaw in your reasoning?

[Andy83]

This is a computer game, the team with the best overall player attributes should win... otherwise whats the point of even having attributes.

[ac13]

Just out of curiosity to the people that struggle to score, how many goals do you get in the league in one season?

I had just over a goal per game total at midway point of season 4. Something like 12 goals for and 6 against after 16 games. Then I made sure that I had a left footed player on the left side and right footed player on the right hand side of the 2 strikers. Ended the season winning 8 in a row and finished 3rd with my Everton team. Not a bad accomplishment I think seen as my net income from transfers is 60mil just to stay out of the red.

It is annoying the lack of headers and long shots and the number of times defenders (usually the fullback) fall asleep and allow the attacker (usually the winger) have a clean run onto a through ball and then slot it past your gk (usually at the near post) for there first goal from their first shot on target. I guess someday SI will have a look at how goals are scored in real life and have goals that reproduce that.

[CMOZZA]

This is a computer game, the team with the best overall player attributes should win... otherwise whats the point of even having attributes.

It's knowing how to play the players that have the best attributes thats the trick, as it is IRL, if you put Messi as a target man in FM or RL would you expect him to play as well as if you played him as trequartista, deep lying forward, poacher, insider forward, advanced playmaker etc?

Plus there's way more in FM to winning games than just throwing in the players that have the best attributes for any given position, ie, your teams mental state stems from press conferences and team talks, and players who are usually at 95-100% fitness will often out perform "Better" players that are only at 80-85% over 90mins, which stems from training schedules and rest periods between games.

Also in that sense, if you haven't had a game for a week (You're players should be back up to the 100% mark if your training is right) and you're playing a team that has played in Europe 2/3 days earlier (Players Could be anywhere from 80-95%), I'd advise playing a high tempo from the off in order to wear them down as come the latter stages of the game you're players should be relatively fresh in comparison to theirs

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

It's knowing how to play the players that have the best attributes thats the trick, as it is IRL, if you put Messi as a target man in FM or RL would you expect him to play as well as if you played him as trequartista, deep lying forward, poacher, insider forward, advanced playmaker etc?

Plus there's way more in FM to winning games than just throwing in the players that have the best attributes for any given position, ie, your teams mental state stems from press conferences and team talks, and players who are usually at 95-100% fitness will often out perform "Better" players that are only at 80-85% over 90mins, which stems from training schedules and rest periods between games.

Also in that sense, if you haven't had a game for a week (You're players should be back up to the 100% mark if your training is right) and you're playing a team that has played in Europe 2/3 days earlier (Players Could be anywhere from 80-95%), I'd advise playing a high tempo from the off in order to wear them down as come the latter stages of the game you're players should be relatively fresh in comparison to theirs

You just wont except it will ya Its sooooooo obviouse that players are more important than tactics!!

As the other chap said about 60% players 40% tactics....

Look at brazil, they have great/skillfull players so they just stick to a simple tactic.. ATACK ATACK ATACK!

[CMOZZA]

You just wont except it will ya Its sooooooo obviouse that players are more important than tactics!!

As the other chap said about 60% players 40% tactics....

Look at brazil, they have great/skillfull players so they just stick to a simple tactic.. ATACK ATACK ATACK!

And that's the reason they could only manage a draw at home to Venezuela & Lost away to Bolivia in October? 2 teams that have significantly inferior players?

[edgar555]

You just wont except it will ya Its sooooooo obviouse that players are more important than tactics!!

As the other chap said about 60% players 40% tactics....

Look at brazil, they have great/skillfull players so they just stick to a simple tactic.. ATACK ATACK ATACK!

And when was the last time you watched Brazil? 1986?

Seeing as they are now the masters of soaking up pressure and utilizing the counter attack, your lack of footballing knowledge has just rendered all your comments as null and void. Next!

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

And when was the last time you watched Brazil? 1986?

Seeing as they are now the masters of soaking up pressure and utilizing the counter attack, your lack of footballing knowledge has just rendered all your comments as null and void. Next!

hahahahaaha your the one with lack of footballing knowledge.

So Im wrong brazil dont play attacking football allowing the players to express themselves... :D:D

And how have Brazil won all there world cups??? hmmm I know through Ultra Attacking football!....

Your off your rocker if you think tactics are more important than personel, is quite amusing actually

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

And that's the reason they could only manage a draw at home to Venezuela & Lost away to Bolivia in October? 2 teams that have significantly inferior players?

Yes that does happen, teams can lose games lol...

Whose won the most world cups?? Could it be brazil through playing the simple tactic of just Attacking??

[edgar555]

hahahahaaha your the one with lack of footballing knowledge.

So Im wrong brazil dont play attacking football allowing the players to express themselves...

And how have Brazil won all there world cups??? hmmm I know through Ultra Attacking football!....

Your off your rocker if you think tactics are more important than personel, is quite amusing actually

Where to start?

When did I mention tactics in that post? I didn't. So your point was?

Did you read the bit where I mentioned 1986. The last true great attacking Brazilian team. If you think the current team just attack then I'm not going to bother trying to educate you.

Do yourself a favour though and watch the highlights of wc94. Brazil won playing some of the ugliest football ever. 58,62 and 70 were won with awesome attacking football none of their others were. Don't make a fool of yourself in public by getting your facts wrong.

You are so wrong and all the in the world won't change that.

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

Where to start?

When did I mention tactics in that post? I didn't. So your point was?

Did you read the bit where I mentioned 1986. The last true great attacking Brazilian team. If you think the current team just attack then I'm not going to bother trying to educate you.

Do yourself a favour though and watch the highlights of wc94. Brazil won playing some of the ugliest football ever. 58,62 and 70 were won with awesome attacking football none of their others were. Don't make a fool of yourself in public by getting your facts wrong.

You are so wrong and all the in the world won't change that.

Ok I didnt make my original post clear i give you that.

What I ment is brazil achieved all them world cup wins/sucess from all out attacking football, with there players just told to go out there and play with freedom/attack (thats a very simple tactic), brazil achieved sucess from playing this way due to there 'talented personel'

Yes I agree brazil have changed the way they play now, but what have they won playing that way?? nothing!!, my point was brazil have proved that personel is more important than tactics from what they won playing a tactically simple game (Just attack)....

[edgar555]

Ok I didnt make my original post clear i give you that.

What I ment is brazil achieved all them world cup wins/sucess from all out attacking football, with there players just told to go out there and play with freedom/attack (thats a very simple tactic), brazil achieved sucess from playing this way due to there 'talented personel'

Yes I agree brazil have changed the way they play now, but what have they won playing that way?? nothing!!, my point was brazil have proved that personel is more important than tactics from what they won playing a tactically simple game (Just attack)....

No not nothing. Wc94 and 02. Copa and confed in last couple of years. Absolutely agree that they used to but football has changed sooo much since the 70s.

[Keitan]

Just like Inter win every game 20-0? Thats a poor argument also.

Learn to read.

[Keitan]

Cheslea under Mourinho (07) (I have underlined players still at the club)

CECH, Petr

CUDICINI, Carlo

HILARIO

Defenders :

BRIDGE, Wayne

ALEX

CARVALHO, Ricardo

BELLETTI, Juliano

IVANOVIC, Branislav

COLE, Ashley

GEREMI

TERRY, John

FERREIRA, Paulo

Midfielders :

COLE, Joe

MALOUDA, Florent

ESSIEN, Michael

LAMPARD, Frank

MAKELELE, Claude

ROBBEN, Arjen

WRIGHT-PHILLIPS, Shaun

BALLACK, Michael

OBI, Mikel John

Strikers :

DROGBA, Dider

KALOU, Salomon

PIZARRO, Claudio

SHEVCHENKO, Andriy

Now, Chelsea's Starting XI at Blackburn at the weekend:

Turnbull, Ferreira, Terry, Alex, Ivanovic, Malouda, Mikel, Lampard, Kalou, Anelka, Drogba

2 players started that weren't in Mourinho's squad, and if Cech was fit it would've been 1. And Anelka has actually added something to the team in most people's opinions, including mine..... so obviously much hasn't changed. Other than the manager and tactics......

It still does NOT mean its all about tactics, Chelsea are 2nd or 3rd in league atm?

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

No not nothing. Wc94 and 02. Copa and confed in last couple of years. Absolutely agree that they used to but football has changed sooo much since the 70s.

Ye but to be honest, theyve only just started playing this new style since dungas been in charge.. (last few years) As he was a very defensive midfielder

[Aytumious]

This is a computer game, the team with the best overall player attributes should win... otherwise whats the point of even having attributes.

Thankfully it doesn't work that way.

[Brian Shanahan]

Ye but to be honest, theyve only just started playing this new style since dungas been in charge.. (last few years) As he was a very defensive midfielder

You've not seen the '94 World cup then , frankly Ireland were more committed to attack than Brazil that year. And they weren't much better in 2002, all Felipao knows is defensive ugly dirty football.

Even when the national team were still playing samba football the clubs were committed to having two chopper centre halves, four chopper midfielders and only the full backs and strikers doing any attacking.

Also Dunga is probably one of the more attack minded Brazilian national team coaches since 1994. His tactic is to defend deep soak up pressure, and counter in numbers. This can be quite an attacking formation with the right instructions and players.

[Rod101]

hahahahaaha your the one with lack of footballing knowledge.

So Im wrong brazil dont play attacking football allowing the players to express themselves... :D:D

And how have Brazil won all there world cups??? hmmm I know through Ultra Attacking football!....

Your off your rocker if you think tactics are more important than personel, is quite amusing actually

Actually Brazil have been playing much more defensively for quite a while. Particularly in '94, when they won. When they played their Galacticos in the last world cup - Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, they lost as they had too many playmakers and not enough workers. Argentina won in '86 through having one all time great, but also a group of players around him that were willing to do all his defensive work.

On the tactics vs. personnel argument, I'd say that Greece winning the European Championship a few years ago blows your argument out of the water. Yes quality players are important, but only when they gel and work together as a team. That's where picking the right tactic comes in.

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

My point was, brazil have won more world cups than anyone, by playing very attacking football.

Proving hands down that personel is most important...

Anyone who denies that knows very little about football Brazil are just simply known as the most attacking team in the world and allways will be, despite a more cautiouse approach recently..

Greece were a one off, a once in a century... usually the top teams come out on top (lol)

[itsallaboutthierry]

plus how can tactics work on 1 patch but then not on another that doesnt make sense at all,

Makes perfect sense if you consider the number of changes made to the match engine. Tactics that were successful on 10.2 tended to be narrow whereas in 10.3 the wings are playable again. You need to develop new tactics on a new patch because technically you're playing a new game. Think your view with regards to this might be the problem.

[Jed_Leeds_ United_ Fan]

And would alex ferguson have been so successfull If he didnt have Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Nicky butt come through the ranks?? Absolutly not! Man u wouldnt have one so many trophies in the ninetys without such talented players... so its not all tactics is it...

[Rod101]

And would alex ferguson have been so successfull If he didnt have Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, David Beckham and Nicky butt come through the ranks?? Absolutly not! Man u wouldnt have one so many trophies in the ninetys without such talented players... so its not all tactics is it...

Who said it was all tactics? It's give and take. When a manager comes in to a new job I'd expect him to tailor his tactics to fit the personnel available, and then alter them as new players come in. Of course having the best players can bring success, but you need a strong tactical framework to allow them to play together. Without that tactic you'd have 11individuals not knowing what to do, where their team-mates are expected to be, who's responsible for defending/attacking and all wanting to play up-front. Basically like a schoolyard kick-around.