Liverpool 4-4-1-1 "Pass and Move" - Paisley Era

[denzil.smith]

i will keep trying thanx!!

[ataggy]

dude the new version its awesome. much less long shots and more through balls. love it. so refreshing to have a good honest tac that plays the game like its suposed too and none of this exploit the ME nonsence or corner bug! using with my chelsea teams and im dominating possesion, ccc and winning lots.

[ataggy]

hi redmark, how would you go about tightening up the back for a championship team for eg? maybe put DC's to defenders instead of ball players? or what about a ball winner or a central mid on defensive duty?

thanks

[davehibb]

I restarted my Barcelona save and used this tactic from the off. I only brought in Afellay to play on the right, the rest of the squad was as is. Hardly a tough team to test it with I know but what I did notice was that unlike my Liverpool save where goals seemed to be spread around the midfield 5 with the FC getting slightly more, Messi (AMC) scored 29 league goals and Ibrahimovic (FC) scored 31 with the other four midfielders, usually Afellay, Iniesta, Xavi and Henry only getting a few each.

[redmark]

hi redmark, how would you go about tightening up the back for a championship team for eg? maybe put DC's to defenders instead of ball players? or what about a ball winner or a central mid on defensive duty?

thanks

Not sure; as in the OP, this does rely on having good players. Setting both DCs to 'cover' might help (high defensive line, but they'll back off a little under pressure) and setting to defenders will help a little.

I'm in the process of starting a new save with an amended tactic - basically, how to include Mascherano in the team. The closest I can get to the original principle is a 41311 - with Mascherano as an anchor DM, Aquilani say as the central CM and box-to-box CMs either side. The fullbacks are made slightly more attacking than in the original tactic and there are a few other tweaks. What I have noticed in preseason is that Mascherano covers both fullbacks very well. The outside box-to-box CMs provide a little width as an option, and still get forward well.

The tactic 'looks' a bit untidy, with the DM-CM-AM line of players sometimes being very close to each other, but I'll see how it goes over a few more games. The alternative would be a 'Brazilian' box-midfield, but this seems closer to the original concept.

[Cleon]

I've only just seen this thread and I am really impressed with the detail in the opening post. A cracking thread

[dudester]

thank you redman,

am playin with Corinthians in brazil, i did a 442 control base on 4411 as well, for the second striker, what will be the duty and the role?

When I adapted it I had deep lying striker and the other eg Torres like as advanced forward who runs onto ball.

I did remove holds ball up and let the deep lying striker roam from position though as I wanted him to be able find space and provide for the advanced forward.

[ataggy]

i love this tactic! i just wanted to share that..oh and to get this thread to the top of the forum

[redmark]

Glad you're still enjoying it .

I'm in the process of reinstalling XP and all my applications this week, so might get to play by the weekend or so...

[Tuddur]

Nice one Redmark.

I've been using this tactic to very good effect.

One simple tweak I've been very succesful with in games i struggle initially is to increase width to in the middle between normal and widest. Seems to open up space for my middle men. Still use pass to middle

[Ufo]

Still having a lot of fun with this tactics.

The fluid passing ist amazing and it´s a very consistent tactic...

[442 is dead]

Love this tactic, it's been by far my most successful. Just want to say well done

[Catbreath]

Just curious, because I am a bit cranky with this game right now. Does anyone make these "great" tactics for teams that don't have world class players at every position? I'm just a dumb ass yank who has no clue about tactics, but even I can create them for Liverpool, Madrid, Munich, and the rest. Does anyone play with teams like FC Dordrecht or AS Cannes and do well.

What's the point of posting these great tactics for teams that have the best players. Your going to win no matter what. I've done it and like I said, I don't understand half this garbage. Please someone out there show us how to do it with lesser talent, not Torres or the like.

No offense to the OP at all meant, but I can make tactics like this. Anyone out there who can help out us that enjoy a real challenge with crappy teams and not all the money and players already at your hands to use!!!!!!!!

I can win with Man U and Chelsea and Arsenal, who can't? But when I get a team with out top class talent, I can't do ****. So, my question is, who can help with "those" tactics. Thank you!

[Genetic Deviant]

Just curious, because I am a bit cranky with this game right now. Does anyone make these "great" tactics for teams that don't have world class players at every position? I'm just a dumb ass yank who has no clue about tactics, but even I can create them for Liverpool, Madrid, Munich, and the rest. Does anyone play with teams like FC Dordrecht or AS Cannes and do well.

What's the point of posting these great tactics for teams that have the best players. Your going to win no matter what. I've done it and like I said, I don't understand half this garbage. Please someone out there show us how to do it with lesser talent, not Torres or the like.

No offense to the OP at all meant, but I can make tactics like this. Anyone out there who can help out us that enjoy a real challenge with crappy teams and not all the money and players already at your hands to use!!!!!!!!

I can win with Man U and Chelsea and Arsenal, who can't? But when I get a team with out top class talent, I can't do ****. So, my question is, who can help with "those" tactics. Thank you!

This really is a great tactic no matter what team you play. The OP lists the type of players for each position and what attributes are needed so look for these ratings that are relative to the level your playing at (if your in league one for example, look to see what roughly the average ratings are at that level and try to find players that have higher than average ratings for the recommended attributes for your team).

im using Shakhtar , okay the domestic league is easy, but ive won three champions leagues in four years (im now in 2015), my midfield consists of witsel (ml), Defour (mc) fellaini/sissoko (mc), Hazard (mr). and they excel in these roles with a little bit of position training.

[Xennaz]

Just curious, because I am a bit cranky with this game right now. Does anyone make these "great" tactics for teams that don't have world class players at every position? I'm just a dumb ass yank who has no clue about tactics, but even I can create them for Liverpool, Madrid, Munich, and the rest. Does anyone play with teams like FC Dordrecht or AS Cannes and do well.

What's the point of posting these great tactics for teams that have the best players. Your going to win no matter what. I've done it and like I said, I don't understand half this garbage. Please someone out there show us how to do it with lesser talent, not Torres or the like.

No offense to the OP at all meant, but I can make tactics like this. Anyone out there who can help out us that enjoy a real challenge with crappy teams and not all the money and players already at your hands to use!!!!!!!!

I can win with Man U and Chelsea and Arsenal, who can't? But when I get a team with out top class talent, I can't do ****. So, my question is, who can help with "those" tactics. Thank you!

I understand what you're saying, Catbreath (lot better than Dog breath!), but like I also said in at least one other thread where you asked the same question, a lot of these tactics are designed on good, if not great, teams but definitely have the potential to allow smaller teams to succeed.

Conversely, one might say that it's unrealistic to find a tactic or framework that allows a "lesser" side to perform giant-killing feats week after weak, and so it's actually more real to dedicate time to find ways to emulate how teams play in real life or in the past.

That being said, tactics and means which DO allow smaller teams to perform above expectations do exist, and while some might call certain methods exploits or workarounds, some of the downloadable tactics that have been meticulously developed are indeed very useful, albeit based on the way a strong team works.

Take, for example, this one. A key component of the tactic is a very good AMC. Creative, inventive, good on the ball, etc. A small team might not have a player like that, and naturally it won't work. Another tactic that relies on having a big targetman and simply outrunning the opponent MIGHT work better, and I seem to recall a couple which do that very well (I believe Randall's is one of them).

Of course, I'm not saying anything you don't already know, but I think it's unfair to misjudge someone on the basis of developing a tactic on with strong side. Greece used the Italian system to win 2004, so it does happen too.

[Lanteri]

Results of the 2009-2010 season using this tactic with A.C. Milan:

Serie A Stats

*Adler had 35 apps, 31 concessions total, 17 clean sheets.

Overall Stats including Cup and Continental

Final League Table

All in all, obviously a very successful season as we comfortably won the Serie A. We did, however, get eliminated in the first knockout round of the Champions League, as we drew 4-4 on aggregate with Atletico Madrid, losing due to away goals. We did the double in the Serie A, defeating Inter in the Italian Cup.

Pato was brilliant all season long, as were Seedorf and surprisingly Gattuso provided some unexpected goal scoring.

I was a bit disappointed by Ronaldinho. I had expected him to be pretty strong at AMC, but it just wasn't the case. He's going to get another shot once Seedorf's contract runs out though at the end of next season. I love Seedorf and all, but I will not be offering him a new contract at age 35 with Ronaldinho on the squad, and Juan Angel Albin. In fact, next season likely appears to be the end for Gattuso, Ambrosini, Zambrotta, Nesta, and Oddo as well. They're all very good players, even at their advanced ages, but it's time to transition away from them.

Also, ignore the team selection shown on the stats, as it's not at all accurate to what I ran with most of the season.

Long story short, I thought this was a very good tactic.

[grimsby_mackem]

Have to say very impressed with this set-up.

Was inspired even though a Sunderland Supporter to take over the reigns at Liverpool, the football I saw them play in the 80’s was amazing and to have it replicated on FM2010 was something that excited me, and seeing it produced is very pleasing on the eye.

Great passing, seem to score goals for fun and very strong at the back, very impressed.

Good Work!

See below my Trophy collection at the moment! My aim is to stay at Liverpool and become No.1 in the English hall of fame and overtake a certain Bob Paisley.

Champions League

2010

Premier League

2010, 2011

FA Cup

2010

League Cup

2010,2011

World Club Championship

2010

Community Shield

2010

European Super Cup

2010

Status: Mid 2nd Season – FA Cup Final, Champions League Final

Will post screenshots & player stats when i get home from work!!!!

[redmark]

Just curious, because I am a bit cranky with this game right now. Does anyone make these "great" tactics for teams that don't have world class players at every position? I'm just a dumb ass yank who has no clue about tactics, but even I can create them for Liverpool, Madrid, Munich, and the rest. Does anyone play with teams like FC Dordrecht or AS Cannes and do well.

What's the point of posting these great tactics for teams that have the best players. Your going to win no matter what. I've done it and like I said, I don't understand half this garbage. Please someone out there show us how to do it with lesser talent, not Torres or the like.

No offense to the OP at all meant, but I can make tactics like this. Anyone out there who can help out us that enjoy a real challenge with crappy teams and not all the money and players already at your hands to use!!!!!!!!

I can win with Man U and Chelsea and Arsenal, who can't? But when I get a team with out top class talent, I can't do ****. So, my question is, who can help with "those" tactics. Thank you!

As in the OP, the point of this tactic wasn't to make a "great" tactic (there are no doubt lots of tweaks that could make it "better"), but to make a real one; or get as close as possible. It's based on a specific idea, used by Paisley's Liverpool sides in the 70s and 80s - an idea borrowed, developed and adpated by many successful managers since. That said, if you persevere with it, it is based on real football concepts and should, therefore, be adaptable in parts to any team in any situation.

[SirCliveWolfe]

As in the OP, the point of this tactic wasn't to make a "great" tactic (there are no doubt lots of tweaks that could make it "better"), but to make a real one; or get as close as possible. It's based on a specific idea, used by Paisley's Liverpool sides in the 70s and 80s - an idea borrowed, developed and adpated by many successful managers since. That said, if you persevere with it, it is based on real football concepts and should, therefore, be adaptable in parts to any team in any situation.

And what a great job you have done, not only do I think that this tactic is very like the 'classic Liverpool', but it is also very good.

Just a sham that the current Liverpool team can not play and win like this

[Luke007]

does any touch line instructions that work well if so can u share please

[Falahk]

tactic does indeed look very well made, shame that the corner defence made me draw my first proper fixture using it, is it intentional to have so many players set to take long shots?

[redmark]

I did start a new save last Sunday and inspired by you efforts here I ventured onto the tactics wizard for the first time in a bid to try and recreate the 'next generation' tactic. i.e. The Dalglish era with the same 4-4-1-1 formation, with the 'Beardsley' role in behind the central striker and a pure left winger (Barnes) rather than an ML.

The way the tactic actually set us was quite interesting in that the position next to and immediately behind or infront of a more attacking player was a more defensive player and vice versa.

For instance the left winger (Barnes) has the slightly more defensive CM (Whelan) inside him and the more defensive full back (Staunton) behind him. On the right the RM (Houghton) has the more adventurous CM (McMahon) inside him and the attacking full back (Nicol) behind him. I set the LCB as the ball player so if he comes out of defence then the LCM (Whelan) should cover etc. It struck me as being quite asymmetrical... I wonder if that's how Dalglish saw it.

Having got FM11 only at Christmas, I was looking to update this tactic at some point. Given today's momentous events , I think the assymetric Dalglish 4411 really does need doing now .

[lam]

Liverpool 4411 Pass and Move, Paisley Era............... includes the use of a higher 'time wasting' setting, to generate a variable-tempo in possession, and higher pressing made possible by players maintaining condition as a result of the 'time wasting' and one or two other tweaks as discussed.

I actualy missed this first comment as I just put it down to an update. However as I was reading through your settings and the ethos behind the team, I couldn't help but wonder if you might get some better performances through using the Timewasting Aspect of the game a little more.

A while back, FM09 I think, I did a fair amount of testing and playing with heavy focus on the use of Timewasting. My formation was very different to yours, however the tactics were similar in so much that I played fairly narrow and through the middle. I played with a High tempo setting, BUT I moved around in the TW settings a lot.

My conclusions were, assuming I remember correctly, was that with a high tempo, your team will pass the ball around very quickly WHEN there is a move on.

The TW aspect of the game, at least for me, seemed to detemine HOW this move was found. Was it forced - ie a LOW TW, forcing the passes around until something opened up. OR was it waited for and then pounced on - ie a HIGH TW.

I have not read the remained of the thread, and to be honest, I've not even finished your own post yet, but this was a key thing for me back then.

Here is the link to the post. If you are playing arond with TW, then it's worth a read (even if I say so myself ):

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/123088-Time-Wasting-Is-it-more-than-simply-wasting-time

Box to Box Midfielders

........They may have the same instructions, but if you play Gerrard and Mascherano, they won’t play the same. ..................

This was a key, can't emphasise this enough, discovery for me in FM2010. I make it sound like I discovered it for myself, but that wasn't the case. SFraser had a tactic that worked in a similar fashion - Two MC's with exactly the same insructions..... can't beging to tell you how differently these two operated with different players.

What always worked well for me at the time, was to watch the first half and if one of the players was ripping the opposition apart due to certain aspects of their game.... ie runs through the middle, long shots, through balls etc etc, then I would adjust that particular setting for the second half...... worked a treat.

*EDIT*

Loving the use of 'Default' in the corner tactics. Genius idea and yet another example of how everyone over complicates the game..... I have played two games so far with this tactic and I am really liking it, results aside. Though, I now have to go a buy two Wingbacks and two finishing wingers.... this is not cheap!!!

I have also scored two lovely goals from corners that I KNOW I would not have been able to set up.

I look forward to finishing your thread....

Regards

LAM

[redmark]

I actualy missed this first comment as I just put it down to an update. However as I was reading through your settings and the ethos behind the team, I couldn't help but wonder if you might get some better performances through using the Timewasting Aspect of the game a little more.

A while back, FM09 I think, I did a fair amount of testing and playing with heavy focus on the use of Timewasting. My formation was very different to yours, however the tactics were similar in so much that I played fairly narrow and through the middle. I played with a High tempo setting, BUT I moved around in the TW settings a lot.

My conclusions were, assuming I remember correctly, was that with a high tempo, your team will pass the ball around very quickly WHEN there is a move on.

The TW aspect of the game, at least for me, seemed to detemine HOW this move was found. Was it forced - ie a LOW TW, forcing the passes around until something opened up. OR was it waited for and then pounced on - ie a HIGH TW.

I have not read the remained of the thread, and to be honest, I've not even finished your own post yet, but this was a key thing for me back then.

Here is the link to the post. If you are playing arond with TW, then it's worth a read (even if I say so myself ):

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/123088-Time-Wasting-Is-it-more-than-simply-wasting-time

This was a key, can't emphasise this enough, discovery for me in FM2010. I make it sound like I discovered it for myself, but that wasn't the case. SFraser had a tactic that worked in a similar fashion - Two MC's with exactly the same insructions..... can't beging to tell you how differently these two operated with different players.

What always worked well for me at the time, was to watch the first half and if one of the players was ripping the opposition apart due to certain aspects of their game.... ie runs through the middle, long shots, through balls etc etc, then I would adjust that particular setting for the second half...... worked a treat.

*EDIT*

Loving the use of 'Default' in the corner tactics. Genius idea and yet another example of how everyone over complicates the game..... I have played two games so far with this tactic and I am really liking it, results aside. Though, I now have to go a buy two Wingbacks and two finishing wingers.... this is not cheap!!!

I have also scored two lovely goals from corners that I KNOW I would not have been able to set up.

I look forward to finishing your thread....

Regards

LAM

Very nice to have you in the thread - because as you'll see near the bottom of page 1/top of page 2, it was indeed your discussion of timewasting that prompted that adjustment.

[wheels37]

Great concepts, makes for some attractive football.

I finally moved up from FM08. After dicking around with all the new tactical bells and whistles that got introduced the last few years (and getting nowhere), I got serious. Playmakers are nice and all, but all they really do is force other players into certain choices and modes of play. The concepts you've embodied here really don't do much but give your team a flexible framework and let them solve the problems posed by the opposition without the coach getting in the way. That is essentially what Paisley was trying to do, I believe, though I am not as well-read on the subject.

When I started in on '11, I saw all the new tactical options and assumed they had to be used. I had playmakers, target men, all kinds of roles, etc, etc. Couldn't get anywhere. Read your concept, which is stylistically the way I've always played FM (if not precisely the same), and decided to see if the old medicine would still work on FM11.

It does. It is rewarding to see tactics built on solid fundamentals working so well. Now, results:

As Arsenal, got off to a bumpy start. Preseason was very inconsistent. Opened the season at home to Chelsea. Lost 1-2, but a fairly even game. One-goal wins over newcastle, bolton, and wolves, none of them exactly inspiring, and 1-0 over bolton my only clean sheet.

Went to Spartak moscow and put up a 1-2 win that was far more convincing than the scoreline indicated. Came home for the darby and absolutely decimated spurs 3-0 and it wasn't even that close. Last game was League cup 3rd round, again chelsea at emirates, so a good comparison study. Pulled out a 1-0 win. With my reserves. Against a full-strength blues. Having gone a man down about 15 minuites in.

So yeah, looks like it took a while to get moving, but hopefully this is the takeoff point.

In terms of input I would offer, I have had a problem conceding, at least until the last couple of matches. Instead of futzing with sliders or mentality to try to tighten things up, I took another approach: I created a sister tactic, a 4141, identical in all respects except that the amc is replaced with a dmc (def midfield, defensive, slider changes to shorten passes and close down in own half, tb often, no holdup)

I'm not opening with this tactic (well, not yet. maybe when I go to old trafford or the bernabeau I'll consider it) but switching to it when I go up a goal or two. it seems like the base tactic, while beautiful going forward, has exactly the hole you'd expect it to have in the dmc zone and it seems most of the danger I face is coming from there. This simply addresses that problem when I find myself in a situation where I can afford to sacrifice some attack for security.

You had mentioned earlier in response to a question that you think the natural modification to accomodate a dmc would be 41311. I thought long and hard about this, as it would have the advantages of maintaining the amc role and the linkup this provides, as well as being a 3mc formation, which is often useful against certain shapes. In the end, I decided against it for a few reasons: first, the tactic, being narrow, doesn't seem to struggle as badly as 442s I've used against 433 variants. Second, I was not sure that the outer MCs would give the same kind of impetus as the wide mids--the tactic plays narrow enough as it is. Third, sometimes one simply finds oneself stuck with wingers who either aren't trained or are simply unsuitable for the mc role, and with 4141 I don't have to play them out of position, which for a plan b shape is a concern. Finally, if I want 3mcs that badly, I'll pull back the amc or pull up the dmc and go flat five.

finally, a quick question: when you go down to ten with your tactic, do you typically just pull off the amc?

Edit: just to be complete: won the league, fa cup, league cup. Went out of europe to barca when the man-o'-match both legs was the barca keeper (semi-finals, 2-1, no away goals either team) had the best defense in the prem, even with conceding 11 goals the last 2 games after I had clinched the title and played the kids. I typically would change to 4141 or a deep 4231 late in games to salt them away, but all of the heavy lifting was done with the 4411 herein described.

[Silky]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/jan/10/kenny-dalglish-tactical-2011-liverpool

[redmark]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/jan/10/kenny-dalglish-tactical-2011-liverpool

Seen that, and been discussing it elsewhere. I like Jonathan Wilson, but that piece reads like he knocked it off in 10 minutes, and without seeing the accompanying graphics.

"Tactically Kenny Dalglish's system essentially followed the same model established by Bob Paisley: a basic 4-4-2 with a genuine winger (John Barnes) on one flank and a more tucked-in midfielder on the other (Ray Houghton), and a deep-lying forward (Peter Beardsley in the role Dalglish himself once occupied) off a hard-working front man who worked across the line."

Well, it's not a 'basic' 442 then, is it? The graphic more correctly shows it as something between a 4411 without the ball and a 433 (or 4123/41221) offensively. Not his best work, IMO.

[crouchaldinho]

It's a poor article. One of the comments below the article sums it up for me:

I like JW's articles as much as the next thinking man, but he does have an obsession with the death of 4-4-2 and the statement that no-one has won anything with it for the last 20 years is balderdash.

Choosing Arsenal as an example - just because I support them, so it's easier for me to talk with authority about them - until the last two years, we were playing 4-4-2 and since 1990, we've managed to win 4 league championships, 5 FA cups, 1 league cup, 1 European Cup Winners' Cup and a handful of charity shields.

JW's response would possibly be to say that (for example in the double winning side of 2002) Bergkamp played deeper than Henry and therefore the front pairing should be called a 1-1 rather than a 2. He might also contrast defensive midfielders with wingers, etc, and change the description of Arsenal's midfield at that time to a 1-3 or a 2-2 rather than a 4.

The fact is that I've never met a football fan who didn't comprehend that in a 4-4-2 some players who are playing in the same band (ie defense/midfield/up front) have deeper or higher roles than some of their colleagues in the same band. That doesn't stop 4-4-2 being used as the description for that formation. It is taken as read that there will be subtleties within it.

Calling 4-4-2 dead is misguided. Plenty of clubs still use it and win with it. Chelsea didn't do too badly when they played it with Drogba and Anelka up front in the last couple of years for example.

[BABIS]

Hello...i am from greece so sorry about my english.this is the best tactic ever but you must have the wright players.i manage arsenal and i have won three times in a row cl and premier l.for gk you must buy adler!!!for st buy hulk and you never forget me...45-55 goals per season...final i want to thank you for your very very good job!!!

[Jaffa]

I've just started using this tactic in FM11. I have to say I'm very impressed with it so far. I won every single friendly and have an unbeaten start in the EPL. I play as Northwich Victoria having guided them from the BSN up all the leagues.

[marksmithlfc1234]

Anyone got a link to this tactic p[lease as its not on Filefront anymore cheers from a massive #LFC fan .

[grimness]

I don't have it but you can recreate it since you have screenshot for each player instructions.