Just found a horrible bug

[Suttface]

Extraordinary thread. It does not suggest Euro-bias simply to offer an opinion that the CL is more important than the CWC. Because of the high levels of competition and prestige attached to the CL in Europe, it has become the 'Holy Grail' for top sides across the continent and attracts the very best players on the planet. The CWC will never be as importnat because clubs only have to win one competitive match to land the trophy. If you win the CL, you really have conquered the cream of World football. And let's not kid ourselves, the top European clubs are the world's wealthiest and therefore pay the highest wages and attract the best players from all over the world. Surely no-one is suggesting that any clubs other than the very top top South American teams could compete with Europe's elite? They simply don't have the economic capacity and therefore lose their best players to Europe. N. America, Asia and Africa simply do not hold on to their players for long enough to become powerful clubs. The MLS top teams would get slaughtered in the top European leagues becuse they can't afford to pay the best players. Same in Australia, Japan, etc and to a lesser extent, South America. All the world's most highly rated players ply their trade in Europe; the World Cup will confirm this later this season.

Not a 'eurocentric' view, just plain and simple fact. Money talks.

[ChrisCryptic]

For all those saying that the Champs League is bigger, with more funds, and therefore better (which I would not dispute with both competitions in their current state), do you not feel that the Club World Cup SHOULD be the spectacle event of the football year?

Perhaps the problem is not a eurocentric view, but a lack of funding and support for the global competition which should (could?) be transformed into the largest/most prestigious/etc club competition.

[Unknown Hacker]

For all those saying that the Champs League is bigger, with more funds, and therefore better (which I would not dispute with both competitions in their current state), do you not feel that the Club World Cup SHOULD be the spectacle event of the football year?

Perhaps the problem is not a eurocentric view, but a lack of funding and support for the global competition which should (could?) be transformed into the largest/most prestigious/etc club competition.

It could be, but never would be the most important, as quite simply, teams have to win hardly any games to lift the trophy... It is just a great way for top European teams to increase their worldwide billing.

[RBKalle]

Pfft Eurocentrism...

That must be the reason why South American players leave Top Clubs in their home country to join average clubs in Europe, and often coming back home with a bigger bank account but a smaller reputation.

Money aside, Champions League is where the Big Boys play, and where all the players want to be.

The Intercontinental Cup was ok as long as it was a single match, and it was, as said, the icing on the cake of a triumphant season.

European Champions grabbed the final trophy, thus putting the exclamation mark on a successful season/cycle.

South American Champions had the chance to enjoy a prestigious win against one of the Top Clubs in the world, and possibly their players could impress some scouts and land a contract in Europe.

Then FIFA decided to invite some more Cinderellas to the ball, creating a useless and unappealing competition, just in the middle of the European season. With two more fixtures added, the European Champions just have to cope with that, and that pretty much explains why they often struggled to win.

CWC is a pleasant burden for European clubs, but the chance of a lifetime for South American clubs. No wonder the former almost phone it in, while the latter try the hardest they can.

Quite frankly, if you feel Man Utd v LDU Quito represents the pinnacle of world football, over ManUtd v Chelsea, or over pretty much every Champions League game past the group stage, well... probably there's no rational or irrational argument we can use to convince you.

Also, just for fun, let's take a look to the lineup of Internacional when they defeated Barcelona in CWC 2006.

- Clemer: never left Brazil, Internacional's longtime keeper. Uncapped at any level

- Ceará: joined PSG

- Indio: like Clemer, another long-serving player in Brasileiro, nothing more.

- Fabiano Eller: one year at Atletico Mardid, then back home

- Wellington Moreiro: loaned out left and right til age 28...

- Alex: signed by Spartak last year, after a long spell at Internacional. Doing fine

- Edinho: from CWC and Championships to relegation in Italy, looking unimpressive.

- Fernandao: he was back from a couple of (meh?) seasons in France

- Iarley: not much success in Spain, Argentina, Mexico and Brazil itself before finding glory at Internacional in his early 30s

- Pato: no comment needed on him

- Rubens Cardoso: another journeyman around Brazil

- Adriano: a short stint at Marseille, lot of Brazil in-between

- Fabian Vargas: Some Boca, then Internacional, now at Almeria

- Luiz Adriano: found fame and fortune in Ukraine.

So, out of the 14 heroes who played and defeated Barcelona, only ONE has actually made it on the biggest stage, and another couple have been fairly successful at a decent-to-good level.

The rest were either aging regular Brasileiro players who enjoyed their 15 minutes of fame, or younger players who later moved overseas with not so much success and not even close to the level of Top Clubs.

I'm rather sure we'd get the same ratio if we had to analyze all the South American Champions/Finalists in CWC too...

It's not Eurocentrism... it's a matter of fact.

P.S. speaking of the US basketball comparison, true, US team can lose a match and not win the World Championship every time, but the average guy in NBA is closer to Top Players overseas than the other way around.

[Damian]

No it doesn't. But knowing enough about football myself, having the support of most people posting on here AND SI - look at the importance ratings of these competitions in FM - and also the likes of Alex Ferguson who purposely played a weaker team as he knows it is a much less important competition to win than Champions League, AND actually being right, makes me right.

To say you have an Asian side in there aswell is laughable. Most clubs in the CWC would get beaten by a League Two side in England.

Check out TV viewing figures, prize money and sponsorship between the CL and the CWC and try and tell me the CWC is the most important!

The importance of SI on your side? Let me remind you politely that the OP said that most of their players were unhappy because they were left out of the competition. ..so Si doesnt minimize the competition as you are saying. League 2 side? really? Estudiantes was 2 minutes away from glory. Atlante scored first against Barcelona at the beggining of the match, is that easy as you are poiting?.

Ok then, sponsorship says what is important or not? You see a comercial and inmediately get blind by it? What if a group of important companies decide to invest in..lets say, Asian Champion League...will it make it more thought as you are pointing?

No one is that forgetting club football exists outside of Europe. They are merely pointing out that the primary competition of the strongest federation in the sport is more prestigious than an international show-piece event. It doesn't matter if it involves "the world", if club football isn't as consistently strong across all continents then of course it's going to be seen as a weaker, less season-defining trophy than the CL.

Well, Ellis minimizes rest of the world teams by saying that they can be beaten by a league 2 side in England. Again..prestigious for whom? Europe people? I agree then, but not prestigious for the entire world.

Pfft Eurocentrism...

That must be the reason why South American players leave Top Clubs in their home country to join average clubs in Europe, and often coming back home with a bigger bank account but a smaller reputation.

Money aside, Champions League is where the Big Boys play, and where all the players want to be.

Money takes 90% of that reason, nowadays is normal that players in average (and also top) teams to return to homeland teams in order to get got rythm of football and hope for a place in the national team

South American Champions had the chance to enjoy a prestigious win against one of the Top Clubs in the world, and possibly their players could impress some scouts and land a contract in Europe.

Again...for money

Then FIFA decided to invite some more Cinderellas to the ball, creating a useless and unappealing competition, just in the middle of the European season. With two more fixtures added, the European Champions just have to cope with that, and that pretty much explains why they often struggled to win.

Errr...the fixtures are also added for south americans sides...and i think is better to be in a great run like barcelona winning everything than thinking in this cup 3 matches away before end of the league running..

CWC is a pleasant burden for European clubs, but the chance of a lifetime for South American clubs. No wonder the former almost phone it in, while the latter try the hardest they can.

So South Americans are wrong or Europeans arent considering it as it should?

Quite frankly, if you feel Man Utd v LDU Quito represents the pinnacle of world football, over ManUtd v Chelsea, or over pretty much every Champions League game past the group stage, well... probably there's no rational or irrational argument we can use to convince you.

Let me remind you all the loooong road those 2 teams had to deal with to get to that match.They were champions of their respective continents and the right to play the tournament. Noone invited them or help them to achieve that...

Also, just for fun, let's take a look to the lineup of Internacional when they defeated Barcelona in CWC 2006.

- Clemer: never left Brazil, Internacional's longtime keeper. Uncapped at any level

- Ceará: joined PSG

- Indio: like Clemer, another long-serving player in Brasileiro, nothing more.

- Fabiano Eller: one year at Atletico Mardid, then back home

- Wellington Moreiro: loaned out left and right til age 28...

- Alex: signed by Spartak last year, after a long spell at Internacional. Doing fine

- Edinho: from CWC and Championships to relegation in Italy, looking unimpressive.

- Fernandao: he was back from a couple of (meh?) seasons in France

- Iarley: not much success in Spain, Argentina, Mexico and Brazil itself before finding glory at Internacional in his early 30s

- Pato: no comment needed on him

- Rubens Cardoso: another journeyman around Brazil

- Adriano: a short stint at Marseille, lot of Brazil in-between

- Fabian Vargas: Some Boca, then Internacional, now at Almeria

- Luiz Adriano: found fame and fortune in Ukraine.

So, out of the 14 heroes who played and defeated Barcelona, only ONE has actually made it on the biggest stage, and another couple have been fairly successful at a decent-to-good level.

The rest were either aging regular Brasileiro players who enjoyed their 15 minutes of fame, or younger players who later moved overseas with not so much success and not even close to the level of Top Clubs.

Well, you shouldnt take it for fun because that actually explains the core of the discussion. you are contradicting yourself since as you pointed, regular brasil players can beat the barcelona with ronaldhino and company...mmm, that actually contradicts ellis statement about league 2 teams beating CWC sides...

It's not Eurocentrism... it's a matter of fact.

Its an opinion like mine. Is not a matter of fact.

[RBKalle]

Money.... that's too easy "blaming" it on money.

Being part of a huge club like Boca or River or Sao Paolo should compensate for the slight advantage of an higher wage to become "one of the many" in a random Serie A or La Liga side.

I doubt Edinho makes tons of money for his Serie B football in Lecce, or plenty of other guys settled themselves for life after a couple of weak seasons in Europe.

Moreso, what does money have to do with LDU Quito v Man Utd not being even remotely comparable in terms of quality to any random CL quarter-final?

Who cares if "they went a long way to get there"... If the game stinks, the game stinks. You can travel 1000 miles to end up in a crappy town, does the travel made it worth it anyway?

Or you can just walk round the corner and end up at Kensington Gardens...

Then again, my analysis of Internacional doesn't contradict my theory: CWC is a competition where the actual level of the clubs doesn't show up, because European teams must squeeze that competition in a tight schedule.

While South American leagues (at least in Brazil and Argentina) AREN'T playing in december...

If that's not a factor in a one-legged final, then I don't know what it is.

Thanks to THAT difference in fitness, preparation and focus on the match, a weaker side can win, or can push the giants to the limit.

Let's arrange the next CWC during the European off-season, while the South American teams play twice a week, and let's see how the competition changes...

[Tele Santana]

Some examples of Eurocentrism still flying around.

If the best players are in Europe (no one is disputing that, despite most of them being South Americans and a good share Africans), then establishing a competition would be good for the development of the game as a whole - one can dispute the time when is played or its format, but the concept seems right, at least for me.

RBKalle´s view on Internacional level of players seems a bit harsh. I can see 4 or 5 of those players doing fine in top leagues in Europe, and I could see Internacional operating very well as a team, like Mourinho´s Porto did, for example.

Fact is, many times, there is more than talent to stay there. Romario decided to head back to the beach in Rio at his prime. Many players don´t adapt to European lifestyle, regardless of their talent. Many simply get homesick and acknowledge that being top-notch in Brazilian football will earn them sufficient money to live very well - i.e. the opposite happens as well, when second-graded players in Brazil go on to lesser markets to be nurtured or become local heroes - seen that happening in Belgium, Norway, even Holland.

From a not-so-distant past perspective, the South American sides up until the mid-80´s were at least as much talented as the top European clubs. In the early 80´s, I am pretty sure 5 or 6 Brazilian teams, the top 2 Argentinean teams and the top 2 Uruguayan teams would make a very good run on Champions Cup.

These Intercontinental games were not a chance for unknown players to make a name and grab a transfer to Europe, as RBKalle tries to simplify. The top clubs in the world included the South American powerhouses for a long time for sure.

Coming back to the 60´s, it´s historical. Pele, the best ever, destroyed many European teams in club official and exhibition tournaments and never needed to go play in an European squad.

Of course, everything now revolves around money - but I can pretty much say Adriano would have a huge market in Europe for him and yet played in Brazil a full season, and to be fair, it would be interesting to see an intelligent investor putting money in Argentinean, Brazilian, Uruguayan or any team from South America and Mexico with good market potential.

These teams exist in Asia (not traditionwise, but on a scale of potential following and the beggining of a brand) such as Red Diamonds in Japan. Elsewhere with Zamalek in Egypt, Chivas and America in Mexico, Saprissa in Costa Rica, the list goes on.

I´d love to see Chinese investment in football clubs in Asia or your usual global mogul putting money in clubs with huge tradition and following such as Boca, River, Flamengo or Corinthians. Can you imagine Chelsea without Abramovicz in a world stage?

In fact I believe we could see football growing on some countries outside of Europe with the new division of economic power the world is starting to experience.

So, eurocentric is not to say Europe has the best standard of club football and CL is the best championship - though based on RBKalle´s comments one can assume there is a small group of teams that are really that powerful if you put aside French teams, etc. - and I actually agree with that. You do have 5-10 really big teams, maybe a bit more. The rest could be easily fulfilled by a blend of the more succesful Internacional team players cited and local players which would have a hard time hitting first team in the best clubs in Brazil.

Eurocentric is the limited view that no competition is needed, as the best club in Europe automatically earns world rights to be crowned. And the view that the world of football can be summed up in Europe.

As I mentioned before, if it was as simple as that, we´d just have to give a trophy to Hungary in 54 or to Holland in 74. Or, to come back to basketball, no Argentina would have upset the USA NBA stars ever.

[Tele Santana]

Let me insist on the last post argument used equivocally by RBKalle, IMO.

1 - Travel is harder and jetlag as well for South American sides

2 - It is much, much more difficult for a player already tired up by 60-70 competitive matches in a single season to play against opponents in the middle of theirs. There´s absolutely no question about it. Ask any fitness coach.

[aston_martin]

Let me insist on the last post argument used equivocally by RBKalle, IMO.

1 - Travel is harder and jetlag as well for South American sides

2 - It is much, much more difficult for a player already tired up by 60-70 competitive matches in a single season to play against opponents in the middle of theirs. There´s absolutely no question about it. Ask any fitness coach.

Much harder for jetlag yes, and I can't comment on the 60-70 games because I don't know how far into the South American typical off season the tournament is staged.

One factor that needs to be considered through is that within Europe the late October - December period (extend that to January for British teams) Is one of the most congested, most important, and most demanding periods, physically and mentally for European teams. It's where you either set yourself a good foundation, or give yourself an uphill battle in your domestic season. So as long as the CWC is staged within those months, it will never be taken as seriously in Europe, as it is across the rest of the globe, because as much as continental and world wide tournaments are nice to win, the basic priority, the bread and butter, is the domestic league.

[MagicNumber]

lets clear this up....

just say the team u support won the champions league 2yrs ago, they then go to play in the cwc the following season.

1 - Your team win the cwc and then lose the champions league final to barcelona at the end of the season

2 - Your team lose the cwc and beat a magnificent Barcelona in the final of the champions league

Anyone prefer situation 1?????

no i dont think so

[wardog]

Pfft Eurocentrism...

That must be the reason why South American players leave Top Clubs in their home country to join average clubs in Europe, and often coming back home with a bigger bank account but a smaller reputation.

Money aside, Champions League is where the Big Boys play, and where all the players want to be.

South American Champions had the chance to enjoy a prestigious win against one of the Top Clubs in the world, and possibly their players could impress some scouts and land a contract in Europe.

There must also be a reason why a number of them return in their prime. Requelme (sp?), Adriando and others.

Champions League is where the "big boys" play because the money is big.

And third point here, backs up my second point.

These are the things that make the differance. Sao Poulo (sp?) and Boca could probably compete in any top league in the world. A number of Mexican sides are getting very good. Asian football isnt far behind shown by the 2002 world cup. It is simply a matter of money that makes the CL harder to win therefore more "presigious". And European fans will watch thr CL more often, the reason being theres 32 teams in the competiton, meaning theres 32 sets of fans to the biggest club/s in the country, therefore people watch it. The CWC has 6 teams.

My bet would be if u multipled the 6 set of fans by 5.3(32/6) you would get just as many if not more than what does watch the champions league.

[BillyBoi]

Woah this thread turned out to be somthing quite different to what i was expecting it to be!

In my opinion when i have been playing on Fm and have been entered into the CWC, i tend to put out a weaker team, as i think the oposition are generally weaker. Also, i tend to think the CWC isnt as important as other competitions, so i want to save my players for the FA cup or League. And if they get upset they arnt in the CWC team, then they will eventually get over it! haha!

[Mario]

Internacional against São Paulo:

First leg

Internacional: Clemer; Ceará (Wellington Monteiro), Bolívar, Fabiano Eller e Jorge Wagner; Edinho, Fabinho, Alex (Índio) e Tinga; Rafael Sobis (Michel) e Fernandão. Técnico: Abel Braga.

Second leg

Internacional: Clemer; Índio, Bolívar e Fabiano Eller; Ceará, Edinho, Tinga, Alex (Michel) e Jorge Wagner; Sobis (Ediglê) e Fernandão. Técnico: Abel Braga

Internacional sold Jorge Wágner, Tinga, Rafael Sóbis and Bolívar from the starting team and still beat Barcelona, who didn't have Messi by the way

Telê, you're welcome at the Brazilian Football Thread at the Football Forum. I wish you could join us

[AllStar4]

Rather how like the Americans treat the Olympic Gold at basketball, compared with the hype of the NBA.

The US sent one poorly picked team to the 2004 Olympics and did poorly not because they didn't care, but because the players weren't selected with international rules in mind (Marbury-Iverson starting backcourt ugh) and played like crap.

They want to win the Olympics. Kobe Bryant said winning Olympic gold was a bigger accomplishment than winning an NBA title.

Kobe Bryant said on Tuesday winning Olympic gold was more important than the NBA title, as he bids to polish his legacy by returning Team USA to world basketball supremacy.

The triple NBA champion, who heads a star-studded line-up hotly tipped to end an eight-year international drought, answered immediately when asked which prize mattered more. “Gold medal,” said Bryant, wading in to the club versus country debate.

“You’re playing for your country, there’s more at stake. I think when you’re playing for the NBA championship, you’re actually playing for a brand, you’re playing for whatever motivation — proving people wrong or whatever,” he said.

“When you put on a USA uniform, you’re playing for something bigger than all that. You’re representing your country, and our country is going up against the other country, trying to prove who’s best. For me, that holds more weight.”

Now if we're talking about the FIBA World Championship well that's another thing entirely...

[Jolanthustrel]

lets clear this up....

just say the team u support won the champions league 2yrs ago, they then go to play in the cwc the following season.

1 - Your team win the cwc and then lose the champions league final to barcelona at the end of the season

2 - Your team lose the cwc and beat a magnificent Barcelona in the final of the champions league

Anyone prefer situation 1?????

no i dont think so

Option 1 happened, not happy about it.

I didn't even realise Barca won the CWC until the FIFA Player Awards. But I know the results of 1st round Europa and champions league games.

Shows how important it is to countries that don't have a team in it.

[wardog]

Option 1 happened, not happy about it.

I didn't even realise Barca won the CWC until the FIFA Player Awards. But I know the results of 1st round Europa and champions league games.

Shows how important it is to countries that don't have a team in it.

Now this shows lack of footballing knowledge.

To qualify you have to win your continential competiton such as the champions league.

[The Vet]

Holy moley. How can there be a debate over this? ChL is won in a very tough and relatively long competition, whilst CWC is like a exhibitions match/tourney - no European club thinks the world of it in comparison to ChL. You cry if you lose(or win it) the ChL final, you simply do not care much if you win or lose the CWC.

[FrazT]

This thread has run for 2 days and has run its course now. The OP raised a bug issue and has reported it, so any further debate is not really relevant to FM. You can happily discuss this in the Football forum if you wish to continue the discussion.