9-10 Seasons in.....Regen problems.

[khriztian]

Consistency and important matches attributes should be higher in regens. In the future there are many player with high CA/PA but with less than 8 in those attributes, making them useless. I'm not stating that the inconsistentcy and high CA is an impossible combination, but that tendency should be less frequent.

Also, I'm very glad SI is taking notes about regens. Wish you the best of luck in those experiments with regens.

[lance101]

Very interesting discussion...

In previous threads I have seen in the forums, SI members have maintained that, according to their long term soak tests, the averages of attributes are relatively similar to the averages at the beginning (perhaps with a couple exceptions, like marking in dm c, which apparently will now be addressed), and even the single attribute distributions seem to be fine (eg., the number of strikers with 15+ finishing or the number of DCs with 12+ heading).. I have no reason to believe this is not the case, but this thread gives very strong evidence in favor of SI games having forgotten thus far another dimension of the distribution of attributes - the correlations between attributes!

When newgens are created, a ideal mechanism for spawning of newgens, would not only give newgens correct average levels of the attributes (eg., strikers starting with on average with 10 finishing or 2 tackling, in order to achieve the right average of tackling and finishing after development), but also attributes correlated in the way they are in the original database (eg., maybe a .5 correlation between finishing and composure for strikers or a .4 correlation between marking and positioning for DC). This would sort out the problem addressed in this thread and, in my opinion, in a better way than simply creating templates for newgens, as these would lead to players looking very similar in the long run.

I don't believe that sigames necessarily has to include in the creation of a new player the correlation between all attributes, as some of them will, undoubtedly, be quite small. But there is no reason for some key correlations not be implemented... and I don't mean only between attributes included in the CA calculation (eg. corners and crossing), but also between attributes who are ruled by CA and attributes which are not (eg. technique and flair) or between attributes that are not ruled by CA at all (eg. dirtiness and sportsmanship). I do not believe this would not significantly slow the game down, has this calculation would only have to be done once, at the spawning of a new player - the rest of the development module of players would only need to be tweaked to ensure accurate averages, not completely remodeled.

This is just my two cents... I would love to know from someone from sigames if something like this is already in place, and if not, why?

[IbaltaxGrape]

i am sooo happy that someone from si looks at this thread. clearly the distribution of key attributes is not correct. i am very happy that marking for dmc's are being fixed, and that off the ball for strikers and wingers are hopefully being fixed too. i am still concerned about some things though:

-marking and tackling should be weighted about equally for central defenders. seems that marking will never catch up with tackling, despite most players that start the game have about the same marking as in tackling.

-the jumping stat for central defenders should be fixed. way too many players with low jumping but very high heading. also, jumping should somewhat be tied to heading, as a player good at jumping would probably have developed his heading skills much more than someone with low jumping. just look at the stats at the start of the game. most player with high heading have high jumping also. there are a few moderate exceptions, but that is what they are, exceptions.

-mental stats for newgens are not good enough. i have never seen a player with great mental stats (even many years into the game) such as xavi, gerrard and iniesta

-most players that develop into world class players should have good hidden attributes, as is the case in real life. there are a few exceptions, but they are rare

-pressure should be somewhat tied to important matches. again, like in real life, and like the stats of the players at the start of the game this should be the rule. there are way too many of the newgens that have like 17 in important matches, and 5 in pressure.

-flair should be tied to dribling. my regen striker has 20 in dribling, but 10 in flair

-dm's should have teamwork, workrate, stamina, positioning and marking as important attributes.

-players are fairly regularly born world class and around 19-20 years old. how about making them 15-16 years old instead and with a lower CA. makes the game much more realistic and exciting, and we won't get those shock players that creates inbalance in the game

-someone above mentioned it... the number of players seems to be dwindling, also making the number of talents in the game less. combined with all the reasons mentioned, this makes finding real talent an issue. football is developing, so the opposite should not be the case

in general, in addition to the points mentioned above, i think SI should create player types, such as target striker, fast striker, wing back, full back, ball winning midfielder etc., and weight attributes accordingly to the attributes that are important for these player types.

Very nice summary of the main issues, I agree fully with all of them. I doubt most of these will get fixed but at least someone from SI has been made aware of regen issues so hopefully some things will get resolved.

[David86]

It's quite obvious that SI have no intention of improving the long term playability.

The last thing they want is a version of the game that all the fans love and want to play for ages. They have to keep it broken and promising improvements so that us mugs keep buying it year after year.

but it's now gotten to the point where i won't be buying another FM until i know this is fixed.

fwiw i don't think si are up to something by not fixing regens. i just thought that si are getting like ea games and going for flashy features such as 3D and paying less attention to the things that really make the game great like it's lifespan

[IbaltaxGrape]

I think the number of people who would not buy a new version of FM because they are satisfied with their long term game of the current version would be very low. I think most people are suckers for new versions of things.

On the other hand the number of hardcore fans, the ones who actually buy FM year after year, who are getting turned off by it because the long term game is lacking quality is a lot higher.

These are just my deductions from observation, so nothing to back them up really. I just don't see the whole argument that its in SI's best interest to keep the long term game unplayable to keep people buying a new version.

FM is all about addictiveness and what creates that addictiveness is the long term game, someone who plays the game for several months as opposed to a week is far more likely to buy a new version.

[thompe]

-players are fairly regularly born world class and around 19-20 years old. how about making them 15-16 years old instead and with a lower CA. makes the game much more realistic and exciting, and we won't get those shock players that creates inbalance in the game

This point I am very interested in. Id like to see a system were regens are born when they are between 14-17, no regen should have a CA of above 100, but the odd Messi-type regen should be able to have a CA up to 120 or 130. This would make a very realistic introduction of regens into the game.

The problem is though, that the AI's ability to develop youngsters is so poor that such a system will fail. It requiers an AI that has the ability to develop world class players in the same way the human player does. This kind of system dont give you ready made players and is much more realisitic. You, and the AI, will be able to make the players into the type of players you want if their potential allows it.

But then again, this system would be very futuristic as neither the AIs ability to develop youngsters or the weightings of attributes are very well developed.

[bleventozturk]

The attribute distribution is skewed beyond imagination:

A lot of DC's have a high first touch and penalties/free kicks ratings.

Loads and loads of people generally have a very high attribute rating on set pieces like penalties, long throws and free kicks. I've found this true in all positions.

I've seen people with a high CA but that has 12-13 attributes of around 17+ but then rest are either around 10 and most of them are under 5, even crucial things like off the ball for strikers, decisions for AMC's and composure for GK's.

And this is a rule, more than an exception. Many key stats are usually, not just sometimes, missing in most newgens. Okay, you're not supposed to get the well-rounded guy all the time, but he's so extremely rare! When I'm looking at the 'wonderkid' newgens(CA 140 and PA over 170), one or two out of the 30~ ish newgens have a 'pretty' rounded profile. The rest have huge gaps, no matter where they play.

The newgen system is completly broken at the moment.

Completely aggree with this. Never understand why this hasn't been fixed for years. More surprising and disappointing is that SI still doesn't want to make this a priority. I'm tired of hearing "this won't be fixed in this version"

It is a step in right direction that finally somebody from SI has acknowledged the problem with the regens. But it won't mean anything unless they decide to fix it.

[Golaxi]

Completely aggree with this. Never understand why this hasn't been fixed for years. More surprising and disappointing is that SI still doesn't want to make this a priority. I'm tired of hearing "this won't be fixed in this version"

It is a step in right direction that finally somebody from SI has acknowledged the problem with the regens. But it won't mean anything unless they decide to fix it.

its just a PR stunt to make you buy next years one in the "hope" it will be fixed.

[Duerfian]

Seems I made the right choice in skipping this years version.

[whilewolf2]

This is a quote from Neil Brock post 338 in this thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=173196&page=4

. I would certainly say the issues with Newgens has been blown out of all proportions, there may be slight weighting issues and some attributes are slightly off for certain positions, but in terms of quality players and CA/PA balance the Newgen system balances it out to a very similar level as at the start of the game.

It doesn’t make me optimistic. Again SI fixates on the CA/PA ignoring that that is not how players see or evaluate the players and that it is a bad indication of player’s average performance levels in the match engine.

[Cinnabon09]

i agree. the PA's that come out are acceptable. but players will never become as good as their PA suggests, because of a weird combination of stats, and low mental and hidden attributes.

[aditya]

PA are more realistic in FM10. but its harder to find the new messi, ronaldo and fabregas

[Cravien]

This is a quote from Neil Brock post 338 in this thread

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=173196&page=4

It doesn’t make me optimistic. Again SI fixates on the CA/PA ignoring that that is not how players see or evaluate the players and that it is a bad indication of player’s average performance levels in the match engine.[/QUOte]

Well, there are plenty of issues. First and foremost, of the entire attributespread on most positions. Too many have high set pieces attributes like penalties, free kicks, long throws etc regardless of position, I've seen loads and loads of defensive players have really high first touch, and loads of offensive players have low off the ball, low composure(for strikers) and more.

Sure, mental stats are to develop for young players, but there have been tests on the 'mature' regens in 2029 and 2039 for their stats and it's usually not much better in the mental area and the set pieces than when they were talents.

It's not overblown.

[eddymunster]

Well, there are plenty of issues. First and foremost, of the entire attributespread on most positions. Too many have high set pieces attributes like penalties, free kicks, long throws etc regardless of position, I've seen loads and loads of defensive players have really high first touch, and loads of offensive players have low off the ball, low composure(for strikers) and more.

Sure, mental stats are to develop for young players, but there have been tests on the 'mature' regens in 2029 and 2039 for their stats and it's usually not much better in the mental area and the set pieces than when they were talents.

It's not overblown.

Read the rest of the thread he also confirmed that this will be looked into.

[Cravien]

Read the rest of the thread he also confirmed that this will be looked into.

I have read it, but the question if you've read Neil's response. It's not just one or the odd attribute. Read the #116 reply in this thread for enlightment

[eddymunster]

I have read it, but the question if you've read Neil's response. It's not just one or the odd attribute. Read the #116 reply in this thread for enlightment

#116 = And guess what..it got patched and ended up excellent.

Not sure i follow:confused:

edit - being dense ignore me it still early

[eddymunster]

I have read it, but the question if you've read Neil's response. It's not just one or the odd attribute. Read the #116 reply in this thread for enlightment

I wasn't having a snipe at you.

Don't get me wrong I agree there is a problem, a problem I have experienced myself. (you will notice it was me quizzing Neil in the other thread)

And although Neil does not acknowledge there is a major problem he does state it will be looked into, although at this late stage I can't see them making any real difference to how it is now. Which really isn't up to scratch.

[Golaxi]

they should at least put an option when you start your game to have the old regen system (players under different names, probably different nationalities too).

that is if SI care about a management game that can last more than 5 seasons.

[eddymunster]

In my opinion the regen system on 09 was much better. As long as you didn't cheat by training your strikers as centre backs and such.

[Gymlee]

I don't really think Neil Brock is wrong in saying the newgen issue is being blown out of proportions. Reading through the different threads on this issue there are a number of constructive posts highlighting some genuine issues. SI have said theyve fixed one, marking, and will look into some of the others. Then we have a lot of posts highlighting several different issues users perceive but in many cases, dont really back up. Jumping for defenders, composure for strikers, general lack of mental and physical attributes, regens being "born" too old, correlations between different attributes and so on.

I think making regens work is a lot more tricky than some realise. People suggest using the old system, shall we say reincarnation, where a player who quits is replaced by someone with a different name (possibly of a different nationality and starting at a different club). This would turn the long term game into an annual race to find the high profile retired players. Generating "positionless" players, for the manager to determine where they are best used, is another option, possibly combined with the use of correlations between attributes. Using correlations you'd also run the risk of creating players too similar to eachother. I do quite like the idea of using them for a select few attributes but personally I don't think this is something that will be done in a patch. The same probably goes for using roles as defined by the tactics creator. Most real footballers dont exactly fit their roles either, could reasonably play multiple roles, or have strengths or weaknesses that aren't generally found in players with that role.

From what I can tell the game uses weighting of attributes. The system as such seems to work. The game generates plenty of strikers who can finish and defenders can generally tackle well. The weighting for some of these attributes however, is off. SI have fixed marking for DMs so this is something that realistically can be changed in a patch. Fixing the other attributes that have their weighting off would go a long way to fixing regens. In the long run regens would still be looking a bit similar but at least they wouldnt almost all have the same few flaws.

[Golaxi]

People suggest using the old system, shall we say reincarnation, where a player who quits is replaced by someone with a different name (possibly of a different nationality and starting at a different club). This would turn the long term game into an annual race to find the high profile retired players.

I suggested it be an "option", as in you can tick a box in the create game part like the other boxes there to play with regens instead of newgens. so people who want long term games with a sustainable database can tick the regen box and people who want to play with newgens in there game can leave it as be.

it wouldn't be taking away anything. except SI's ability to pimp us out of long term games.

I don't see a problem with having an option to play with regens, after all SI's goal is to make the next generations of players to closely match the original database as possible. something you can't better than with regens.

[deep64blue]

In my opinion the regen system on 09 was much better. As long as you didn't cheat by training your strikers as centre backs and such.

How is that cheating??????

[LeoVieira]

How is that cheating??????

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=58666

[deep64blue]

I don't see a problem with having an option to play with regens, after all SI's goal is to make the next generations of players to closely match the original database as possible. something you can't better than with regens.

The old regen system was awful - that's why it was dumped. Personally I wouldn't want SI to spend any time on resurrecting it, there are far better things they could do with their limited time.

[Gymlee]

I suggested it be an "option", as in you can tick a box in the create game part like the other boxes there to play with regens instead of newgens. so people who want long term games with a sustainable database can tick the regen box and people who want to play with newgens in there game can leave it as be.

it wouldn't be taking away anything. except SI's ability to pimp us out of long term games.

I don't see a problem with having an option to play with regens, after all SI's goal is to make the next generations of players to closely match the original database as possible. something you can't better than with regens.

I agree with deep64blue on this one. I'm sure some people would like a different training system as well. I'd rather see SI invest their time into getting one system right. The current system isn't perfect but improvements can be made that reasonably could be done with a patch. They would at least fix the major issues with regens.

On the one hand we want regens attributes to be as close to real players as possible, which suggests using weighting and correlations. On the other we dont want them to become too similar which is what weighting and correlations do. So we still need a degree of randomness in their attributes. Not so much of it that talented youngsters end up useless because they have one or two very low key attributes but enough of it so not all of them look similar. I think the current system would come pretty close if the attributes that are now off, are fixed.

[eddymunster]

I agree with deep64blue on this one. I'm sure some people would like a different training system as well. I'd rather see SI invest their time into getting one system right. The current system isn't perfect but improvements can be made that reasonably could be done with a patch. They would at least fix the major issues with regens.

On the one hand we want regens attributes to be as close to real players as possible, which suggests using weighting and correlations. On the other we dont want them to become too similar which is what weighting and correlations do. So we still need a degree of randomness in their attributes. Not so much of it that talented youngsters end up useless because they have one or two very low key attributes but enough of it so not all of them look similar. I think the current system would come pretty close if the attributes that are now off, are fixed.

I think you just summed up the complexity of the situation the programmers are in pretty well.

[Cinnabon09]

I don't really think Neil Brock is wrong in saying the newgen issue is being blown out of proportions. Reading through the different threads on this issue there are a number of constructive posts highlighting some genuine issues. SI have said theyve fixed one, marking, and will look into some of the others. Then we have a lot of posts highlighting several different issues users perceive but in many cases, dont really back up. Jumping for defenders, composure for strikers, general lack of mental and physical attributes, regens being "born" too old, correlations between different attributes and so on.

From what I can tell the game uses weighting of attributes. The system as such seems to work. The game generates plenty of strikers who can finish and defenders can generally tackle well. The weighting for some of these attributes however, is off. SI have fixed marking for DMs so this is something that realistically can be changed in a patch. Fixing the other attributes that have their weighting off would go a long way to fixing regens. In the long run regens would still be looking a bit similar but at least they wouldnt almost all have the same few flaws.

please, if u read my post above, can u tell me if it is one of those posts that "don't really back up", or if it is "genuine"? because you mention many of the points i made in my post as not unrealistic. i def think that some correlations between attributes need adressing. would you not agree that generally heading and jumping go together? you have exceptions in real life, but these are not the norm. i have seen way too many newgens with 7 jumping and 20 heading. it is logical that people who have better jumping skills will develop their heading skills more than people that don't jump as well.

pressure and important matches should not be more than 6 or 7 apart. as it is, the newgens have a pressure and important matches that are totally random relative to each other. my newgens have important matches/pressure of the likes of 17/5 all the time. can u mention even one well known player at the start of the game that has a gap between important matches and pressure that is more than 7? or a similar case between jumping/heading, dribling/flair? i guess some sympathetic dude is going to point out that it is not unrealistic to have a "special player", but these are not special in the newgen world. they are common.

and there are way too many of the newgens that actually become good stats-wise that are very very bad at the hidden stats. there should be a correlation here too, but with room for some exceptions, just like in real life. where are all the xavi, iniesta, gerrard, maldini, buffon and rauls? they don't get made by the game. it seems you will have to be extremely unlikely lucky for this to happen, whereas in real life these type of players come out every year.

marking for dm's is an issue that is being fixed, but off the ball for strikers and wingers def need fixing too. i will be disappointed if si did the "easy way out", and just fixed these, because there are more "weighting-attributes-errors" that needs some serious researching. but maybe i am hoping too much from si

[Gymlee]

please, if u read my post above, can u tell me if it is one of those posts that "don't really back up", or if it is "genuine". i def think that some correlations between attributes need adressing. would you not agree that generally heading and jumping go together? you have exceptions in real life, but these are not the norm. i have seen way too many newgens with 7 jumping and 20 heading. it is logical that people who have better jumping skills will develop their heading skills more than people that don't jump as well.

fixing marking for dm's is an issue that is being fixed, but off the ball for strikers and wingers def need fixing too. i will be disappointed if si did the "easy way out", and just fixed these, because there are more "weighting-attributes-errors" that needs some serious researching.

Off the ball for attackers is one of the other ones being looked at, if I understand correctly. I've actually looked into this myself in another thread and someone from SI agreed there was an issue with that stat.

As far as correlations are concerned: I do quite like the idea of having them for some attributes. While high heading with low jumping is still of some use to attackers it is a nightmare for DCs and more importantly it isn't very common in real football. While playing the game I did notice a lot of highly rated young DCs with low jumping. But when comparing crouchaldinho's save of 2039 to the database at the start I actually found that for the top DCs in either game, jumping was very similar. This could be different if you take into account less talented DCs too. To really argue there is an issue here tho, we need data to support it.

Ultimately however I believe that, since correlations as far as I know aren't in the game now, this isn't something SI would add in a patch. It would need quite a lot of testing to see the effects this has on regens. I'd love to see SI work on this for FM11 tho. Or rather in general look at regens and try to come up with a better system. The way regens are handled is the main reason I've never had a game of over 12 seasons. I do also realise, thinking about other ways to create regens, this is a very complicated thing to get right.

[Cinnabon09]

I agree with deep64blue on this one. I'm sure some people would like a different training system as well. I'd rather see SI invest their time into getting one system right. The current system isn't perfect but improvements can be made that reasonably could be done with a patch. They would at least fix the major issues with regens.

On the one hand we want regens attributes to be as close to real players as possible, which suggests using weighting and correlations. On the other we dont want them to become too similar which is what weighting and correlations do. So we still need a degree of randomness in their attributes. Not so much of it that talented youngsters end up useless because they have one or two very low key attributes but enough of it so not all of them look similar. I think the current system would come pretty close if the attributes that are now off, are fixed.

we agree on the basic it seems. it seems that some correlation is needed, but i don't know how much correlation is used now. it seems too little for me tbh.

also, i would not have complained about newgen players being popped out too old, if it were not for the fact that getting players that are good enough and get them classified as homegrown becomes very difficult after some years. getting newgens that walk out of the brazilian jungle at 19 (just too old to be home-grown) and world class just adds to the frustration, and i also think it inbalances the game.

[Cinnabon09]

my guess is also that correlation is not used , and it would be too much work for si for the next patch, or even for fm10 as a whole. i do hope they take it into consideration for later fm's though

[eddymunster]

Off the ball for attackers is one of the other ones being looked at, if I understand correctly. I've actually looked into this myself in another thread and someone from SI agreed there was an issue with that stat.

As far as correlations are concerned: I do quite like the idea of having them for some attributes. While high heading with low jumping is still of some use to attackers it is a nightmare for DCs and more importantly it isn't very common in real football. While playing the game I did notice a lot of highly rated young DCs with low jumping. But when comparing crouchaldinho's save of 2039 to the database at the start I actually found that for the top DCs in either game, jumping was very similar. This could be different if you take into account less talented DCs too. To really argue there is an issue here tho, we need data to support it.

Ultimately however I believe that, since correlations as far as I know aren't in the game now, this isn't something SI would add in a patch. It would need quite a lot of testing to see the effects this has on regens. I'd love to see SI work on this for FM11 tho. Or rather in general look at regens and try to come up with a better system. The way regens are handled is the main reason I've never had a game of over 12 seasons. I do also realise, thinking about other ways to create regens, this is a very complicated thing to get right.

Mod Neil Brock has definitely confirmed that the distribution of attributes will be looked into for the next patch.

Although he hasn't confirmed anything will be done to actually improve the situation.

[Gymlee]

we agree on the basic it seems. it seems that some correlation is needed, but i don't know how much correlation is used now. it seems too little for me tbh.

also, i would not have complained about newgen players being popped out too old, if it were not for the fact that getting players that are good enough and get them classified as homegrown becomes very difficult after some years. getting newgens that walk out of the brazilian jungle at 19 (just too old to be home-grown) and world class just adds to the frustration, and i also think it inbalances the game.

I actually quite like the fact some of them are "born" older so to say. I think of it as the real life equivalent of a player who wasn't really discovered (or considered talented enough to become a top class player) until they were a bit older. And it prevents us from hoarding all the good regens so they are all home grown and cheap.

I think we do agree on the issues with newgens tho. Other things you mentioned like flair/dribbling I have noticed in my game too, and in 09. I think the best way to try and fix this is to get some solid evidence to back up these feelings. This takes a whole lot of time tho and I'm not sure how one would go about this without real knowledge of how regens are made, what can possibly be changed in this process and what sort of "evidence" SI would want to support this.

[Cinnabon09]

well, it's good news that they are looking at it. i hope the mental stats eat up a larger chunk of the starting ca this time.

to gymlee. i've just looked at my save file with genie scout, and the jumping/heading issue seems to be an issue mainly with strikers. while it is useful with high heading for a striker, a striker with 18-20 in heading and 10 in jumping is unrealistic, but very normal on my save.

the reason you found a number of highly rated central defenders with low jumping could be because the game likes to create some kind of flaw in very many players, either in hidden attributes or the visible attributes. if i find one of these great central defenders with low jumping, i would retrain him to dmc asap, as the game seriously lacks quality dmc's after some years

[DP]

It should be the mental stats that make or break a player.

Technical and physical can be worked on to some extent but the mental stats are what distinguishes the greats from the good.

[aadam]

a striker with 18-20 in heading and 10 in jumping is unrealistic, but very normal on my save.

Why is it unrealistic? You can often see small forwards heading with great accuracy if they can lose their markers. Messi scored a goal like that last weekend. He could never win a header when a defender is near to him, but he's deadly when no one is around.

[aadam]

There are 3 games left from my first season, should I wait for the new patch to start the second so that I can have a better income of newgens or is it just not worth it?

[HaraldNatvik]

I was running 20 leagues on large database on fm2009 and i noticed a huge problem with regens too.

There was a few good ones around but not as near the amount that should have been, i was in year 2025 and

there was only 1 world class keeper in the whole game/world.

sadly, it ruined the game for me, and i quit and uninstalled. surely S.I. must be working on

long term games, as this problem has been around for years now.

You are quite right. I've used the Genie Scout for about three years now, and for that reason, I'm pretty much able to spot good regens or not and compare FM07 with the later games. In FM07, there were almost too many good regens, but I still had a lot of fun. I was able to pick up some real gems and it made the game a lot more fun. I could develop these players in my youth team, play them in my first team or send them out on loan etc and be "Arsene Wenger"...I was truly what made the game.

For those of you who don't know, you can tick the "regen" box in Genie Scout and only search regens. You are also able to see their CA and PA, as well as Genies ratings based on their stats now and at full potensial. Class players have perhaps 75% - 85% ratings.

In FM09 I discovered a decline when it came to good talent, and now on FM10, it's really rubbish. I had a game going with River Plate for four seasons, and looked forward to discovering good argentinian talent and producing a lot of quality players. Well, as always, I used Genie to see if there were any good regens from the start. I discovered one and signed him up. Great. But then, three sesongs went by, and where were the argentinian talents? Nowhere. Up came only a lot of rubbish players with bad stats. Their rating was aweful. There just weren't any good talents being produced. It has pretty much ruined the game.

Now I'm starting to consider playing FM07 again instead, despite the fact that I really like FM10 apart from this regen problem. Bummer.

[Dyllan]

Yeah, the regens are rubbish (& really exepnsive from the start) and I have quit playing.

[Cinnabon09]

Why is it unrealistic? You can often see small forwards heading with great accuracy if they can lose their markers. Messi scored a goal like that last weekend. He could never win a header when a defender is near to him, but he's deadly when no one is around.

do u notice what messi's heading stat on the game is? and how many players at the start of the game has 18-20 heading and 10 in jumping? that is why it is unrealistic. the game is supposed to be a reflection of real life, and the newgens are supposed to develop into something alike the players that start the game

[lance101]

I have decided to put my money where my money is... here go ALL the correlations and averages for two different databases:

1- Crouchaldinho 2039 database with england, spain and italy

2- A database with the same specs at 2009.

You can see the excel files here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2917212/FM/2009.xls

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2917212/FM/2039.xls

Some quick observations:

- Player number has diminished somewhat between 2009 and 2039 (from over 27 thousand to over 26 thousand)

- Average CA has diminished considerably!! (69.7 to 61.4)

- Average PA has also diminished considerably!! (99.1 to 89.6)

- Some correlations between CA based attributes seem okay (eg. heading-jumping correlation goes form .37 at the beginning to .36 in 2039) but some others don't hold up so well (eg. decisions-composure correlation goes from .57 at the beginning to .47 in 2039)

-Correlations with attributes that are not part of CA go totally down the toilet (eg. flair dribbling .54 in 09 goes to .42 in 2039, pressure important matches = .22 in 2009 goes to 0.00!!!! in 2039, sportsmanship-dirtiness -.07 in in 2009 goes to -.01 in 2039).

I should also point out that the correlations at the initial database are probably biased towards zero, because they already include lots of generated attributes for all the attributes that have 0s in the data research - I suspect that calculating the correlations for only the researched players would provide even higher initial correlations than the ones I present in the excel file.

Feel free to download, play with it and provide more analysis!

[HaraldNatvik]

I'm not surprised by these results lance101. SI really need to work on this. It's a huge problem in my opinion, and I can't really see what the problem is. They had a lot of really good regens in 2007, perhaps too many. But in this case, I'd say it's better to have too many good regens than just a few.

[lance101]

Some more results:

Correlation between CA and important matches goes from .45 in 2009 to .13 in 2039! Between CA and determination goes from .55 in 2009 to .24 in 2039! Massive lowering of the mental, non CA, attributes of good players...

[whilewolf2]

Looking through a thread where people were posting images of their best regens I was struck by how few players had an acceleration value higher then their Pace value three out of about thirty does anyone else think there might be a problem there?

[lance101]

Just lookedd at the stats for that whilewolf2, and it is actually the other way around:

2009: 35% players acceleration > pace

2039: 42% players acceleration > pace

[whilewolf2]

Ok thanks for that lance must have just been a coincidence.

Could you explain what I'm seeing when I look at your excel spread sheets please I'm afraid I can't make sense of them.

[aadam]

There are 3 games left from my first season, should I wait for the new patch to start the second so that I can have a better income of newgens or is it just not worth it?

Anyone? Is there a huge improvement to expect from patch 2?

[lance101]

On the left side you have all the attributes from all players. On top of the page you have the averages of all attributes. Directly bellow that you have the correlations between each pair of attributes.

[lance101]

Another common argument by people - jumping of quality DCs:

Average value of jumping for natural DCs with CA>=120:

2009 - 14.6 (693 players)

2039 - 13.7 (533 players)

[Stu Coleman]

Anyone? Is there a huge improvement to expect from patch 2?

We've been working hard to fix legitimate issues that can be safely fixed for the next patch. So yes, there will be improvements in the next patch - as ever really.

[nev147]

We've been working hard to fix legitimate issues that can be safely fixed for the next patch. So yes, there will be improvements in the next patch - as ever really.

The key word being 'legitimate issues' Stu!