Can't buy a win: Keep me in the Championship

Here is how things have gone so far - disastrously. Every long shot flying in, morale kicking around in the gutter. Utterly hopeless. I'm without ideas where to go, everything I change I see no improvement - I'm just clueless in what I'm doing and fed up about not being able to do anything about it as soon as a challenge comes along with this game. I jump match to match from approach. Shut up shop, long ball, counter attack, possession, all out attack - and none are offering me any glimmer of hope that they can get me anywhere near mid-table.

Formation & Set Up

Finished 4th in League 1 with more or less the same team, and set up. Haven't been given a penny by the club to improve the side, and have in fact had to sell to bring who I have in. The one change I've made this season is to go to defence - in an effort to stop conceding so many. Strangely enough since this change after a few games into this season the ME is rewarding me with far more luck; but my previously counter attacking set-up that kept possession in League 1 is now just a sitting duck in the Championship.

I only ever really play around with team shouts. I will add and change them game to game with a reasoning, but clearly it isn't working or having no effect. Or I'm just an idiot and using the wrong shouts.

I want to be able to keep clean sheets and threaten teams on the counter attack with pace upfront - which I have in abundance. But the problem is I just seemingly can't defend, and my goalkeeper just doesn't save anything. I don't know whether it's the bugged out match engine - but even if it is, I should be able to take advantage just as much.

Help please!

Goalkeeper

Defenders

Key Players - Midfielders

there is a really insightful 4-4-1-1 thread on here, may be able to provide helpful tips on your formation:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/407524-Help-with-4-4-1-1

Key Players - Forwards

One small thing sticks out for me on your formation, I would play the B2B on the right side and the playmaker on the left. B2B might have his runs blocked off by a wide midfielder on attack duty. Sometimes those wide midfielders like to cut inside. However, due to a winger being on the other side the B2B would have all the room in the world to drive into, I would also consider making him a central midfield on attack duty to see if it gives you better penetration. The deep playmaker would compliment a penetrating runner like your wide midfielder too if you do decide to make the switch

What stands out to me is that you have a very pacy and with good acceleration attack, but you're playing with 1 man upfront who is set to DLF(A). This means he'll look to play others in and to create chances for himself, which means you aren't taking advantage of their pace, because they're basically playing "sur place", to use a French term.

Since you apparently are an underdog in most (if not any) of your matches, I would reconsider roles and your style of play. To do this you can:

1) Buy players suitable to your style of game (example: you want to play a possession game? Then you can choose to get players with good passing like Iniesta, Xavi, etc.);

2) Try to create a style that attracts your opponents into your own half and then quickly get the ball forward to exploit the space with your attackers' pace and acceleration.

I notice that you basically only have 2 players getting in the box and one is likely to be the one who offers the assist. I would reconsider these things if you want to achieve something.

Have reached an international break. Nothing has changed, just as useless in every single facet of matches so far. Have decided to try an utilise some of the pace in my side, and Fernandez as my sides best player. Changing to a 4222 should hopefully see me much more threatening, with theory that I can score my way to safety.

Player instructions;

RB; stay wider, cross more often

LB; stay wider, cross more often

DM(d); more direct passes

RM; sit narrower, run with ball, run wide with ball, cross ball

LM; sit narrower, run with ball, run wide with ball. cross ball

DLP(s); run with ball, run wide with ball, move into channels, more direct passes

AF; run with ball, run wide with ball, move into channels, more direct passes, hold up ball

Those stats don't tell much, because they do not show how your team/the opposition shot. It could be that your team shot from inside the box and just missed the goal while the opposition kept shooting from distance (this is what I expect to be true, since they have 17 shots and only 2 on target), which would mean 1) your attacking transition works fairly good (still not the best because you only have 1 CCC created and only 2/9 shots on target); 2) your defensive phase works even better because the opposition could only threaten you from long range (and they clearly hadn't good chances). To see this, you should look at the Shot tab in the analysis and you'll see a lot of red "balls" which show the shot which missed the target.

I see a lot of dark PR in those screenshots. What did you tell them during the press conference?

I can see you gave Whelan the instruction "more direct passes", when there is a good DLP like Josè Rodriguez near him. Are you sure it's working properly? Give Whelan a look in the passes tab by highlighting him.

I still think your AF(A) is quite isolated and I think I know why. You instructed 4 of your men to "run wide with ball" and nobody is still getting in the box. Maybe, you could try to ask one of your WM to cut inside rather than stay wide (you can create space but what if you don't exploit it?). If you want an idea of an AF(A), look at how Milito played for Mourinho at Inter in 2010. He would be the focal point up there, running, moving, creating space for others, but still being able to get deep.

I would ask your LM to cut inside and exploit the space left by the DLF, who will come deep (as you can see from your average positions map) and will attract defenders.

Running wide is not the only way you can create space. Runs from deep also do. Moving the ball around patiently could potentially create space (this is something Guardiola did great with his Barcelona in 2009).

Another small thing. You don't want too many players to run with ball, honestly. You're playing on a quick, lethal counter attack. Your players need to be able to perform a 40 yard pass if they feel it might bring a good opportunity. I am not saying it's wrong to run with ball, just it's not not right to force them to do it the whole time. Think about a cross. It might be dangerous if your WM saw your AF(A) in a dangerous position and would love to cross him the ball but then he says "oh wait, I need to keep running with the ball". Your counter attack will be quite useless.

Last but not least, do not think a 1-1 isn't great. If you're sitting last and you are facing a good/top team, then a 1-1 is an amazing result. Tell your players you are happy they didn't lose and let them know you're proud. Motivating and leaving the dressing room relaxed will solve a lot of problems.

Got the sack a few games after this result. Reloaded for one attempt at keeping my job at MK Dons. If I get sacked again, I'll move on to a different club.

This time have made a couple more tweaks. Now playing Control/Fluid as opposed to Counter/Fluid. Never really saw my team actually counter attacking anyway, always just sitting deep and inviting pressure.

Thanks for the advice! Have put into plan the idea of runs coming from other areas. Previously had just wanted my wingers to beat their men and cross the ball for two strikers. Put clearly that didn't work.

Have decided to move forward Jose Rodriguez to an advanced playmaker, and try to get him creating chances for Akpom, Olsen and my other fast forwards.

At this level,Rodriguez looks a CMa every day of the week. Take advantage of his finishing.

Getting it together a bit now. Have seemed to settle on a 4-1-4-1 with Rodriguez playing in his most familiar position at DM. Confident of staying in the Championship this year after getting together a few wins.

Am finding it impossible to turn around after conceding early goals though. Seems to me morale plays to bigger part in how your fundamental team should function tactically. If I concede early on I'm more or less resigned to the opposition just making it 2,3,4-0 very quickly.

If you concede early, then concede again - have you made tactical changes? What type of changes do you make when you concede?

If you make no changes, then it stands to reason the same weakness will be exploited again and again.

If you concede early, then concede again - have you made tactical changes? What type of changes do you make when you concede?

If you make no changes, then it stands to reason the same weakness will be exploited again and again.

Sometimes, usually not. If I see a problem, for example me not being able to pass out from the back, I'll remove that shout etc. More often than not I don't know what to change, so either change for the sake of changing or don't bother.

But I don't see how conceding a fluke long shot, or a rebound at a set-piece is representative of a tactical set-up. The goals I usually concede are outliers, but they have such a drain on morale and motivation that it's near on impossible to get round that and force any sort of tactical approach to get back into the game before you concede again.

Ok - how do you prevent those things happening? Playing higher up, closing down more, not giving opponents opportunity to cross - can all prevent these things happening. Obviously need the personnel to do it though.

Ok - how do you prevent those things happening? Playing higher up, closing down more, not giving opponents opportunity to cross - can all prevent these things happening. Obviously need the personnel to do it though.

Just lost 2-0 to Bournemouth. Both of their goals coming in the first 15mins from successive corners. Motivation of the players is then destroyed until the rest of the game.

Tactically I change to Attacking, more direct, but Bournemouth just keep the ball for the rest of the game, barely create anything. I can't get any footing in the game because I can't get the ball, so I don't create anything or have any shots. The game just fizzles out with me defending well, forcing only long shots.

I don't see how I could have done anything else tactically that wouldn't have been detrimental to me conceding 3,4,5. The only way I see that I could have got back into the game would be to somehow find a magical solution of in game team talks to motivate the players in game.

Your flanks look a bit... uninspiring - it looks like such bland predictable play there. Maybe try getting some overlapping going down 1 flank. With your central midfield pairing so deep you really cannot afford to play a Regista - you have a vast space that none of your players are attacking. Someone has to get into that massive central space. A DLP(D) & DM(S) might help that.

Back in the same rut. The game is just hopeless. It all feels utterly random. I've played FM for a long time and it just seems harder and harder to get a grip of. I just don't understand how anyone can pick this game up and find enjoyment and success without t frustration - oabjecnly solution is seemingly to spend hours and hours reading pages on forums.

Only ever time I ever seem to win a game, and my team play the way I want them to is when team talks come of, and their motivation is right in game. Otherwise it just falls apart. 2-0 down to Sheffield Wednesday, haven't a clue what to do...

A few things that I notice with a quick glance is that all 4 of your wide players are on an attack duty which is too much. Your central midfield pairing is a good choice. Looking at your team instructions you want to keep the ball but are your team capable of being the Barcelona of that division? I would drop both and play on the counter especially with Olsen's speed. Look for the overlap (I think you probably know) instructs your wide men to hold up the ball and wait for the full backs. Have you noticed them getting caught on the ball? Have you noticed them being too high up and trying to hold onto the ball? Instead they could be charging at their opposite numbers and creating you very good chances and delivering dangerous crosses into the other teams box.

Also one last thing as someone said above it's so easy to be annoyed after some bad results and if you aren't winning the match after, to be harsh on your players because they're infuriating you (I've been there) but be calm and tell them they have done well, it's more important than people think.

I've tried counter attacking before - didn't work. I'm trying it again now, and it doesn't work. All it does is invite pressure and it's only a matter of time before I conceded. I never actually counter because the team never manage to get the ball of the opposition in the first place to ever build an attack; and even when they do they don't or can't.

I feel your pain...The only thing I would suggest giving a go is removing all of those TI's that related to ball retention (as keeping possession when you're 2-0 down isn't going to get you back in the game).

I've tried counter attacking before - didn't work. I'm trying it again now, and it doesn't work. All it does is invite pressure and it's only a matter of time before I conceded. I never actually counter because the team never manage to get the ball of the opposition in the first place to ever build an attack; and even when they do they don't or can't.

I find this too, and it's hard to build a Counter tactic because of it.

Also, if you want to Counter remove "Look For Overlap". You want your wide players to break but with that instruction they will wait for the full backs to overlap them.

Your setup demands quite a lot from the players as individuals. In the Burnely game you played high tempo and retaining posession. I don't think the individual qualities of passing, first touch and off the ball movement in MK Dons can justify an approach like that. You'll be up against a lot of high tempo teams that will try and win the ball in advanced positions, if you cant pass your way to good attacking positions it will prove hard to win games consistently. Ben Reeves didn't contribute at all in the game against Sheff Wed as a winger, and with Olsen up front through balls is what matters. Basically, I don't think you have good enough players for this system.

I see you play with a fluid tactic, but you still have 3 spesialist roles in the midfield triangle. In my experience that wont work, as more spesialist roles (BTB, Adv PM, DLP etc.) demands a more rigid system as they will have to adapt to a very spesific set of instructions. With teams like MK Dons, clearly lacking in skill, I think a more fluid approach with fewer specialist roles is the way to go. Either way, specialist roles and a fluid system is rarely a success IMO.

Ok I'll make some suggestions, I hope they will help.

First of all since you're obviously having issues with defending, I would suggest a 2 DM tactic. Maybe , taking into account your players, a

-------FC-------

------AMC------

ML-----------MR

---DMC--DMC--

DL-DC-DC-DR

Also since your players are generally not the best in passing the ball around I'd suggest dropping all the possession minded TIs like Work the ball into box or Play out of defence.

Have the team drop deep, play high tempo(especially using the amazingly fast striker you have in the front as an AF or Poacher), have the DCs and DMCs mark tightly, generally tackle hard and have the team be Disciplined and Stick to Positions.

Also try to balance your roles and player mentalities. Choose one side in which your winger will be the offensive outlet and have him as a W(A) and in the other let the wing back be offensive and maybe keep the winger with a WM(S) to have more midfield presence.

Also keep the full backs AS FULL BACKS. Having Complete Wing Backs in a relatively weak team, will leave a lot of openings in your defence...

Hope I helped a bit

Have taken on the advice of many people - in this thread, and on the current counter attacking one.

At the moment I have this set-up, but it doesn't seem to be working either. I don't see that it's soley down to my players not being good enough, because I see all over this forum that players over achieve.

I watch games in Full, I can see what is going on, but have no ability in how to affect anything.

- I've switched to very fluid, and removed specialist roles.

- I've a balanced midfield - attack, support, defend.

- I've balanced wings with attack and support complimenting each other either side with variation (LB stay wide, LM sit narrow)

- I've a forward that will try and drop deep, hold up the ball, and make space for midfield runners in the break.

- I've Tactical Shouts that compliment my players and team. I can't press as I've lazy forwards. I need to stay compact and wait to counter

-- Work ball into box/retain possession is used with the theory that when I have the ball I must try a look after it.

Playing a counter attacting fluid tactic (would probably go fluid rather than very fluid) I would not use "Work Ball Into Box". But I would play with a higher tempo as that will get the ball quicker to your striker/wingers. Counter attacking obviously means that you will exploit your opposition when they are out of balance. Dropping deep to counter and then trying to work the ball into the box doesn't work that well IMO. I would also consider higher tempo.

How good is Jake Sinclair at holding up the ball? If he doesn't do it very well, consider bringing your wingers up to AML/AMR and your full backs to defend. That will at least give your midfielders more options when setting up attacks.

Btw, remember to adjust the corner settings to zonal marking in the penalty area. If you are conceding a lot from corners, that is a quick and brilliant fix =). I've gone from 11 conceded during first half of the season to 0 in 15 games from janaury.

Playing a counter attacting fluid tactic (would probably go fluid rather than very fluid) I would not use "Work Ball Into Box". But I would play with a higher tempo as that will get the ball quicker to your striker/wingers. Counter attacking obviously means that you will exploit your opposition when they are out of balance. Dropping deep to counter and then trying to work the ball into the box doesn't work that well IMO. I would also consider higher tempo.

How good is Jake Sinclair at holding up the ball? If he doesn't do it very well, consider bringing your wingers up to AML/AMR and your full backs to defend. That will at least give your midfielders more options when setting up attacks.

Btw, remember to adjust the corner settings to zonal marking in the penalty area. If you are conceding a lot from corners, that is a quick and brilliant fix =). I've gone from 11 conceded during first half of the season to 0 in 15 games from janaury.

Okay, will try these suggestions, although I fear I've done all this before. Am at a complete lost cause in terms of counter attacking. Have already set-up the corners, although I still concede far too many.

Whenever my players have the ball they all seem so disjointed and panicky in possession. Is that to do with the team set-up? I've taken time and followed what's thought to be a balance in this side. Is it the fluidity? Mentality? Can 'counter' actually every counter attack with such a low mentality? There just seems no reward against the massive risk of conceding so much possession and ground to the opposition in this ME.

Can you show excactly what you have done on your defensive corner set-up?

Too bad that you're not enjoying the game, but trust me, you will. Does the game need a patch to be perfect? Yes, no doubt, but I still think already that the ME is in a more advanced shape than ever.

You say that your players seems disjointed in posession. Is this especially true when it comes to your wingers? Or striker? I am sure many FM players have done great with a flat 4-1-4-1, and many teams have obviously done it IRL as well. But its quite obvious that Jake Sinclair needs to be at his best in holding up posession or Dilrosun/Reeves needs to beat opposition FB's down the flank consistently. Again, "working the ball into box" will slow your tempo down, that will only isolate a player like Dilrosun more, espesially as Rodriguez is sitting back more in a supporting role.

Morrison should be a good signing for you though!

I find this too, and it's hard to build a Counter tactic because of it.

I find counter actually seems to work best with probing possession football. It means you break quickly when there's the opportunity and keep the ball the rest of the time. Requires fairly good decisions squad-wide, though.

So I just lost at home to the second bottom side in the league, and didn't create a single chance, or put together a single counter attack!

All my side did was sit deep, not tackle anyone, when they did get the ball back they would lose it. Not put together an attack, or make any transition, just lose the ball. The biggest turn over of possession simply came from when the game stopped by foul or ball going out of play, not through tackle or interception.

Not enjoying the game is a massive understatement.

I still believe you're expecting a bit too much from your players. Having them in a Very Fluid/Fluid shape means you're allowing them to take a lot of initiative and perform tasks out of their capabilities.

Seeing and realizing that your squad isn't so talented, you should have them follow your instructions as much as possibly...

But that's my opinion only.

Also if you're seeing way too many long shots during a match, then you should put the work ball in the box TI into action. Because you did reach a lot of times the opposing area but your players elected to shoot from far.

Finally, I would prefer an Anchor Man or DM(D) for the DMC spot. The deep lying playmaker role is a bit too soft and I believe you'd prefer someone to provide extra defensive help there. After all you have two CMs close that could take over the creative part.

*Oh and one more thing: You have no real presence in the area, the way you're set up. The DLF(S) will always be out of it, and the WMs are not as aggressive as wingers. Maybe make the DLF to DLF(A) and the WM(A) a W(A)?

I still believe you're expecting a bit too much from your players. Having them in a Very Fluid/Fluid shape means you're allowing them to take a lot of initiative and perform tasks out of their capabilities.

Seeing and realizing that your squad isn't so talented, you should have them follow your instructions as much as possibly...

But that's my opinion only.

Also if you're seeing way too many long shots during a match, then you should put the work ball in the box TI into action. Because you did reach a lot of times the opposing area but your players elected to shoot from far.

Finally, I would prefer an Anchor Man or DM(D) for the DMC spot. The deep lying playmaker role is a bit too soft and I believe you'd prefer someone to provide extra defensive help there. After all you have two CMs close that could take over the creative part.

*Oh and one more thing: You have no real presence in the area, the way you're set up. The DLF(S) will always be out of it, and the WMs are not as aggressive as wingers. Maybe make the DLF to DLF(A) and the WM(A) a W(A)?

I've chosen fluid as I have no players that stand out to be able to carry out specialist roles? Also if I'm counter attacking I should want players to be able to take part in attacks if the possibility arises?

What will the affects of having no playmaker be? I've chosen the DLF(s) as I've read that any lone forward should be supporting role to close the gap between midfield and link the gap? Will try the suggestions in next game to see the affects.

Just beaten Leicester away from home, who are 5th in the league! 2-1! Am pleased with the result obviously, but the performance was just as bad as ever. Conceding possession and ground, not winning the ball, no transitions just losing the ball.

Went into the game with the same set-up as the last game, with exception I played Seko Fofano (my Yaya Toure like midfielder) up front as a CF(s).

First goal came from a cross after a corner was headed away.

Equalising goal was a complete bug... why was my goalkeeper lying on the floor for the complete cross and shot? Why could the right back put in such a Beckham for Ronaldo like cross from so deep when the defender was so close?

3rd game running with broadly the same set-up. 3rd game running where I haven't created a single half chance, or even fashioned a single shot as a result of a counter attack! 3rd game running where I've not seen a sniff of the ball. My goal came from a corner, Reading's goals came from a corner and a cross.

I'm not sure if it's a bug or just me, but I think the ME does punish a player for not using the in game team talks. More than in any other ME in any other year of FM I've never felt so vulnerable and porous to the opposition scoring right after I've scored. Felt the exact same in my last save with Chelsea, so it's not just a case of me having a bad defense.

As your see I managed to create the sum total of 1 half chance! Barely counter attacking :/

Changed the striker to an attack duty and that competly isolated him - despite having runs from all over midfield.

Barely any completed passes deep in my defensive area. How can a 'counter' mentality expect to build transitions when the players can't pass to each other. Only possession that was made was no threat to any defence as it was at the half way line.

Next game I am going to move my whole midfield up to the AM strata, put back the DLF(S) and add in 'Play out of defence' shout.

Changed Fluid to Very Rigid (Highly Structured), and just played with this set-up;

Btw, check out this thread: '>http://community.sigames.com/forumdisplay.php/215-Tactics-Sharing-Centre-(Upload-Download)

I am sure you've already seen it, and you seem like a genuine FM player who wants to get your own tactic to work, rather than downloading one (not judging anyone that does). But if you look at the "best" tactic creators in this forum, one element is consistent: They have a clear vision on how they want to play! You gotta look at the players you have, and probably set out a way that you think have a best chance at creating most goals for you. Is the tactic going to be based on a target-man you have to have wingers that are close enough to run behind on through balls. If the striker in a 4-1-4-1 isn't a great header off the ball or have great strength he might only provide runs behind the defence or combine on one-two's. Get those wingers up to AML/AMR, maybe go for a classic 4-2-3-1. That as a tactic is bound to make chances, and you have the midfield players to win games, but the striker is left all alone. I play a 4-2-3-1 now, and use wingbacks (defend) which keep most of the crosses out.

Edit: I play both my wingers on support in the 4-2-3-1, and the OM as an advanced playmaker (attack), with a deep-lying forward. They do occupy eachothers space a bit, but the oppostion CB's are often struggling to mark both of them. Would not be suprising if that is a good mix for your side.

Have often looked at tactics in there for ideas and pointers in the right direction, but more often than not it's just confused me even more. Most set-ups I see fly in the face of theories and strategies that are commonly put forward as the 'right way'.

Since moving to Very Rigid I have now seeing some actual countering attacking. The players seem far more relaxed in possession as well, and things are actually seeming to come together.

Glad you already see some improvement!

It's really hard to find something that fits your team completely. But a general rule of thumb so to say, is that if you have a weak team you should not allow them too much freedom. Have them Rigid etc so that they do simple clear tasks.

Maybe also Lower the tempo? Actually works nicely too with CA sometimes and will have your team gain more possession and make less mistakes

Seriously thought, I won't say I'm an expert either, I'm just a guy who plays - A LOT - FM

Still not seeing any success at all. Playing as very rigid and still players aren't defending well enough, or actually ever counter attacking.

Counter/Very Rigid

GK d

FB a

CD

CD

FB s

DLPd

DMs

APa

IFa

Ws

DLFs

-- Work ball into box

-- Play out of defence

Nothing is working - mods, help please? Seeing very little input here from the people on this forum that have been accredited to a position of expertise. This thread has been open since Friday, it's very clear I am struggling and looking for help, yet no help has been put forward from certain people - certain 'experts'.

People open threads because there failing, struggling and frustrated with the game every day without requisite information to be able to seek help, yet I've put everything in here about my game and have seen no improvement in my frustration with the game.

Tommo - having a pop at us isn't helpful. We have lives, and are not paid for our position, it is exclusively because we want to help and try as best we can. So keep the lip down please.

On to your problems. What is your current system. You chop and change frequently, which will not help your players settle. You do seem to try playing a counter attacking style but fail to actually implement it properly. The principles of the system are:

• Deep compact formation
  
• Players staying on feet and cautious about committing to challenges
  
• Players who are direct in nature in your team (Wingers are direct, CM(A) is direct, a playmaker or wide midfielder is not). I have seen in some systems you are using "look for overlap", wide midfielders and a DLF(A) in a 4-1-4-1. All of which are entirely inappropriate.
  
• A lone forward with no midfield support must be a support duty if you actually want him to link up any play with his teammates. Otherwise you will lose the ball quickly. The only exception is playing a Trequartista instead.

So, time to re-establish. You still trying to play a Counter system? What is your current team settings.