Teaser Thread No 4: Passing Patterns

There are two major areas to be thinking about when setting passing patterns. The first is to make sure each player has plenty of passing options when he is in possession. The second is to think about what type of football you would like your team to play.

Passing Options

At the bare minimum, a player should always be able to look up and see two easy passing options. Ideally, there will be three but this might be difficult to achieve on small pitches, against entrenched defences or under heavy pressure. A common error is to allow a player no obvious forward passing options at all. If you ask a full back to play very short passes to an aggressive midfield, all of whom are looking to get forward at every opportunity, the chances are he will look up and fail to see an obvious pass. He will be able to pass it inside to the DC but that will not initiate an attack and often lead to the back four being put under pressure and being dispossessed by a pressing front line or punting a directionless, long ball to avoid being caught in a dangerous position. Common signs that this is happening are players dawdling on the ball when seemingly under little pressure or seeing a lot of players with short passing instructions banging it long.

Make sure that each defensive player can look up and hit a lateral ball, forward ball and a diagonal ball without too much difficulty. For a player high up the pitch, the forward ball might be very difficult to pick against a packed defence, so he needs to have lateral, diagonal and backwards options, which enable the team to retain possession and look for a new opening. Check on the positioning settings of the players around the passer (mentality and forward runs) and adjust his passing instructions so he can hit passes to any of the required lengths. That might mean giving him longer passing instructions than you would have first expected. Individual player attributes are influential when assigning passing instructions. A player with great passing ability should be able to find some kind of passing option no matter his instructions, as long as his temperament is up to his being able to play his way out of danger. However, someone who struggles to control his passing might be better suited to longer 'clear the ball' instructions so that he doesn't make poor, hurried passes from dangerous positions.

Although all passing systems can and should be tweaked to best suit the players at your disposal, there are two basic passing strategies from which you can build. One is focused on keeping possession, controlling the ball and breaking down the opposition in the final third. The other is more counter-attacking orientated and looks to clear the lines before catching a retreating defence out of position and vulnerable to the quick break.

Possession/Breaking Down the Opposition: Such a system requires a solid base from which to launch attacks. It is the job of the defenders to ensure possession is retained until a chance opens. Hence, defenders and more defensively minded midfielders should be looking to play possession-friendly short passes. The more creative players will be looking to move the opposition about and open up space in the final third. Hence, they will be playing a far more direct game. If they lose the ball and it is cleared, the defence reorganize, reset the base and the move can start again.

Counter-Attacking: This system requires the opposite approach. The defence is expected to be under pressure and its main aim is to clear the lines and, hopefully, initiate a counter while doing so. Hence, defenders’ passing settings will be direct, looking to bypass the midfield and feed the forwards, as a short pass to a deep-lying midfielder can be extremely dangerous if he is immediately closed down and loses possession. Direct passing instructions ensures the whole team is in passing range for an under pressure defender, offering multiple clearance options. The forwards’ job is to try and counter before the opposition gets its defence back into position. Hence, they will be looking to play short passes to their strike partner and supporting midfielders in the hope of quickly working a good through ball opportunity.

The above systems will need to be adapted to pitch size and match strategy. For example, on a smaller pitch, the direct passes of the attacking players might be over hit too often and need to be adjusted accordingly. Likewise, to see out a match with a possession mindset might lead to a manager asking a second central midfielder to play short passes to help with ball retention duties and only having four players probing for space in the final third. With a poor side, both systems may need to be based on longer passing instructions to ensure players aren't making foolish and easily intercepted passes in dangerous positions.

5-4-1 Download Link

I prefer the first system.

Pretty helpful that. Realise some stuff I was doing wrong.

The link didn't work at first for me as it goes to http://community.sigames.com/www.fm-britain.co.uk/downloads/TT_F_09_5_4_1_Set.zip, but I just deleted the http://community.sigames.com/ at the front and it worked. If this is a widespread issue then you might want to edit the link.

I've never tried as I didn't think it would work but what you are saying is that you can use direct passing for you forward players?

I've always thought that this would be too long for forwards and have always restricted it to my defensive players with passing getting progessively shorter the further up the field the player is positioned.

The link didn't work at first for me as it goes to http://community.sigames.com/www.fm-britain.co.uk/downloads/TT_F_09_5_4_1_Set.zip, but I just deleted the http://community.sigames.com/ at the front and it worked. If this is a widespread issue then you might want to edit the link.

Thanks. Link is fixed.

@ footynut: Exactly what I used to do, but experiments have proved the other method to be batter.

I did notice while playing last night my defenders were keeping the ball for ages.

Will check out the options they have in front of them later.

Cheers.

Sorry I don't get how you mean direct passing can be used for forward players.

I can't see that anywhere in the main text. Can you explain that bit to me again please?

Like the first post states, forwards should have a shorter passing game and to play to other forwards and to encourage through balls.

Bit confused!

Sorry I don't get how you mean direct passing can be used for forward players.

I can't see that anywhere in the main text. Can you explain that bit to me again please?

Like the first post states, forwards should have a shorter passing game and to play to other forwards and to encourage through balls.

Bit confused!

From the opening post it says

"Possession/Breaking Down the Opposition: Such a system requires a solid base from which to launch attacks. It is the job of the defenders to ensure possession is retained until a chance opens. Hence, defenders and more defensively minded midfielders should be looking to play possession-friendly short passes. The more creative players will be looking to move the opposition about and open up space in the final third. Hence, they will be playing a far more direct game. If they lose the ball and it is cleared, the defence reorganize, reset the base and the move can start again."

and also mentions that forward players may need longer passing than you may have first thought.

I must admit that this does sound strange but will try it out to see if there is any improvement.

It's more direct than the defensive base, not necessarily direct on the sliders. What it does is give the midfield wingers more immediate passing options which encourages them to play more probing passes and spread play. You might choose only to employ a couple of players in such a role, you might entrust the front five. However, someone has to have the responsibility of spraying the ball around.

i wonder why you didn't mention through balls here, wwfan?

What's with the uploaded tactics at the end of each teaser thread, wwfan? Are they just alternates to the current preset tactics for us to try?

Good, helpful read though. Thanks.

Thanks both, I understand the point your making know about the more advanced players having a more direct passing style. I'd mis-read the original post.

Another excellent thread once again. Looking forward to the full document. SI should ship it with the actual game in my opinion.

wwfan..just gotta say, its much appreciated, that you are willing and able to provide us FM´ers with these tactical informations.. ive had a hard time understanding the ME, BUT after reading through your teaser threads,my understanding of the ME, is much better..

eventhough that si tries hard to satisfy everyone, its impossible to do so, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO TACTICS.. there is a huge difference in how we percieve tactics, from ones real life experiences, and then translate that into the game.

sometimes or rather often, somethings are lost in that translation, so im glad we have an excellent "translator" like you on these boards..

I have a question about the hight of passes and direct, essentially I want my midfield to hold the ball until my striker probably in 4-5-1 formation gets chance to run through on goal from through ball, problem is if I have midfield on direct passing will they just knock it over the top too often where I want them to play ball along floor for striker to run on to?

I've tried target man run on to ball with short passing but that didn't help and also another annoyance is striker frequently just passes ball back or holds up even though he is on run with ball often and rarely for TTB and Crossing etc!

So basically is it possible for midfield to be on direct passing but still keep it on groung, for a start!

I have a question about the hight of passes and direct, essentially I want my midfield to hold the ball until my striker probably in 4-5-1 formation gets chance to run through on goal from through ball, problem is if I have midfield on direct passing will they just knock it over the top too often where I want them to play ball along floor for striker to run on to?

I've tried target man run on to ball with short passing but that didn't help and also another annoyance is striker frequently just passes ball back or holds up even though he is on run with ball often and rarely for TTB and Crossing etc!

So basically is it possible for midfield to be on direct passing but still keep it on groung, for a start!

You try pasing a football over distance along the ground!

WWfan,do you think that weaker sides could adopt your first passing system, setting all the defenders on short passing or it would be better to use for such teams only your second approach,with more direct passing and I think higher tempo?

The tactic's are 5-4-1 not 4-5-1.

The centre backs marking isn't right with 3 at the back. Scholes runs towards the Centre drawing out my CB, slots in a pass to Rooney who is in the hole between the CB and CBL. Goal. 3 at the back ensure massive gaps between the 3 centre backs.

You try pasing a football over distance along the ground!

I don't mean over distance, from what I understand the guy is talking about attacking players probing by looking to get the ball into the attackets early and I've always thought of direct in the old Chile system where they looked to get the ball forward in the least number of passes without hitting it long so always looking for the forward pass. Now that could be argued as tempo but that seems to just be how quickly a player releases the ball etc

What I want is them play a through ball along the ground early on in the move without it being passed around too much but everything just ends up being either knocked over the top or talking too long.

For example of goal think of Bents third against Zagreb for Spurs or balls Carrick favours where he plays low in behind so its easier for forward to control first time!

I don't mean over distance, from what I understand the guy is talking about attacking players probing by looking to get the ball into the attackets early and I've always thought of direct in the old Chile system where they looked to get the ball forward in the least number of passes without hitting it long so always looking for the forward pass. Now that could be argued as tempo but that seems to just be how quickly a player releases the ball etc

What I want is them play a through ball along the ground early on in the move without it being passed around too much but everything just ends up being either knocked over the top or talking too long.

For example of goal think of Bents third against Zagreb for Spurs or balls Carrick favours where he plays low in behind so its easier for forward to control first time!

You're right, direct play is about getting the ball to the forwards as quick as possible but this generally means a longer pass. The least number of passes would be to hit one pass after all isn't it? Anymore than that and it's not as quickly as it could be.

I would have thought that if you want your midfield players to play a through ball along the ground then set them to try through balls often and shorten their passing if they are hitting long balls over the top and increase their mentality if they are passing around too much and taking too long.

Yeah tried that but it just seems that I end up with ball on edge of area and no space for forward to use. I've tried counter attacking, use target man and TTB often for both centre mids in different combinations along with short passing and varying attacking mentality levels! Only think I can think of now is maybe playing deep on mentality so opponents push up to press my players and then will have more room for through balls but suspect that will mean that the more defensive mentality will result in sidewards passes etc

To be honest I'm not sure its possible but hoping someone will know something I don't!

Who is this guy and why should we listen to him? Did he create the match engine?

I don't mean over distance, from what I understand the guy is talking about attacking players probing by looking to get the ball into the attackets early and I've always thought of direct in the old Chile system where they looked to get the ball forward in the least number of passes without hitting it long so always looking for the forward pass. Now that could be argued as tempo but that seems to just be how quickly a player releases the ball etc

What I want is them play a through ball along the ground early on in the move without it being passed around too much but everything just ends up being either knocked over the top or talking too long.

For example of goal think of Bents third against Zagreb for Spurs or balls Carrick favours where he plays low in behind so its easier for forward to control first time!

try this:

mentality: quite attacking (so they pass forward)

passing: mixed (experiment with short/direct as well), shorter for defenders (they should pass the ball to more creative players)

tempo: very fast (to move the ball quickly)

TTB: this is really important; rarely for defenders or DMs, mixed/often for players you want to try those 'killer balls'

RwB: not too many players on often, rarely to DCs, MCd.. the idea is to pass the ball quickly not run with it.

experiment with Counter Attack instruction.

--

of course striker's instructions are also very important, forward runs often, maybe?

The centre backs marking isn't right with 3 at the back. Scholes runs towards the Centre drawing out my CB, slots in a pass to Rooney who is in the hole between the CB and CBL. Goal. 3 at the back ensure massive gaps between the 3 centre backs.

I’m glad someone else questioned this. If you’ve played football before (which I’m guessing wwfan hasn’t), you’ll recognize that with three centre-backs you don’t need all of them on man-marking. The one in the middle should be on zonal, so that when the other two get dragged out of position due to man-marking, he’s there protecting the zone and taking care of any deep runners that might overload the defense.

I would suggest that people on here try to think for themselves before they embrace tactics that are a sandwich short of a picnic.

try this:

mentality: quite attacking (so they pass forward)

passing: mixed (experiment with short/direct as well), shorter for defenders (they should pass the ball to more creative players)

tempo: very fast (to move the ball quickly)

TTB: this is really important; rarely for defenders or DMs, mixed/often for players you want to try those 'killer balls'

RwB: not too many players on often, rarely to DCs, MCd.. the idea is to pass the ball quickly not run with it.

experiment with Counter Attack instruction.

--

of course striker's instructions are also very important, forward runs often, maybe?

Yeah sounds similar to what I've been trying but will give it a go!

This will all probably end up with me getting it through to forward early and him insisting on returning the ball to midfield for no apparent reason and me with my head in my hands!

It is all very frustrating as in real life you'd just be able to tell them what to do and then its whether it works etc whereas with the game it seems 90% of the battle is simply trying to manipulate system to do the most simple of moves and when you've done that there is no room for variance, i.e do this in this circumstance and this in another etc!

wwfan - do you actually know more about tactics that SI?

Seems that way!

Great work.

wwfan - do you actually know more about tactics that SI?

He’s as flash as a rat with a gold tooth! All SI are doing are monitoring his comments about how the game is played and make adjustments to the engine accordingly. I heard they even offered him a lucrative salary to come to London and work as an advisor, but due to his passport difficulties they had to settle for Ray Houghton.

Yeah sounds similar to what I've been trying but will give it a go!

This will all probably end up with me getting it through to forward early and him insisting on returning the ball to midfield for no apparent reason and me with my head in my hands!

It is all very frustrating as in real life you'd just be able to tell them what to do and then its whether it works etc whereas with the game it seems 90% of the battle is simply trying to manipulate system to do the most simple of moves and when you've done that there is no room for variance, i.e do this in this circumstance and this in another etc!

Remember that for TTB to work passing needs to be mixed/direct.

I’m glad someone else questioned this. If you’ve played football before (which I’m guessing wwfan hasn’t), you’ll recognize that with three centre-backs you don’t need all of them on man-marking. The one in the middle should be on zonal, so that when the other two get dragged out of position due to man-marking, he’s there protecting the zone and taking care of any deep runners that might overload the defense.

I would suggest that people on here try to think for themselves before they embrace tactics that are a sandwich short of a picnic.

The tactics we are uploading are based on a very generic theory in which DCs are always assigned man-marking. It's hardly a chore to change the DCC's marking to zonal if you feel he is too often doing the wrong thing. They are not supposed to be anything other than alternate defaults and are certainly not optimised for different formations. We designed 72 tactics (which we'll upload on release day) to help with the Beta process, ensuring the ME was put through its paces against all formation shapes. To do that we had to remain consistent in settings. The final document makes it very clear that these tactics are starting points only, to learn from rather than to guarantee wins. Some shapes will be flawed, others will work very well. It's up to the user to think about what works and doesn't and reshape them to his preference. But thanks for the critique. I'll make sure I never release a tactic again with out getting your personal stamp of approval as to the accuracy of the settings. After all, you obviously know much more about football than I do.

Who is this guy and why should we listen to him? Did he create the match engine?

I'm a tactical mod who has been involved with the ME Beta process for most of the last two years (bar a gap at the beginning of FM08). The full guide comes with a personal recommendation from Paul Collyer, who programs the ME. This year's testing process raised issues about the ambiguity of the slider system and the need for some real world translation, so, with the blessing of SI, five or six of us ran a side-project to produce a community guide that explains things in layman's terms. We decided to release teaser snippets to build interest and to prevent information overload when the full document arrives (50 pages and almost 18,000 words). You neither have to listen to nor agree with what I say, but the option is there should you so wish.

We designed 72 tactics (which we'll upload on release day) to help with the Beta process, ensuring the ME was put through its paces against all formation shapes. To do that we had to remain consistent in settings. The final document makes it very clear that these tactics are starting points only, to learn from rather than to guarantee wins. Some shapes will be flawed, others will work very well.

are these tactics going to be used by AI also? are they coded into ME or smth?

are these tactics going to be used by AI also? are they coded into ME or smth?

No. They are alternate defaults for the user. They are solid but slightly flawed, as defaults should be. However, with a little thought and due application, they should be reasonably easy to tweak into something very good.

Brilliant as always, thanks wwfan and Millie!

I can't believe how people can be so harsh when something that took SO much work is being released for free for all of us to make our experiences with the game more enjoyable and feed interesting discussions on the boards. That's a shame. But I guess these kind of people are everywhere =/

Nihilism is cool, though.

I would suggest that people on here try to think for themselves before they embrace tactics that are a sandwich short of a picnic.

Exactly. Precisely our point. Thank you for getting it!

These aren't complete tactics! They're generic tactics with generic instructions moved to fit a generic shape.

For example - I don't agree with the marking on the 3-5-2 (or any of our 3-man setups). I don't want "often" crossing on my attacking MCs. I don't like that the tactics are too wide for my style of play. I don't like the use of closing down (I want it to be much less), and I also disagree with some of the use of arrows.

And I made the tactics.

These are defaults - pure and simple. If you "embrace" these tactics as complete and don't "think for yourself" you'll fail. Precisely our point.

So thank you, Jimmy. You've actually contributed to TT&F '09. Does it make you feel dirty, playing with the establishment?

the point what jimmy was making, or at least one that i took from since it encompasses my personal opinion too is that whilst wwfan/et al's work is impressive for the pure depth of study, it and in turn, the FM match engine; they both seem to be basing off on assumptions that aren't all necessarily true and thus providing us with an incomplete and inherently flawed system with (intentionally) flawed default tactics as presented with the teasers at least. i don't suppose i have to say that i've agreed with any of the tt&f's fully before either. and yes, i've read them all from the very first version or so on fm-britain.

don't worry though, i don't want to seem like i'm just criticising unconstructively. i've been slowly writing my piece on the subject of 'football' having noted intrinsic issues first in CM 01/02 but i was far too young and lazy and then grew indifferent until i rejoined these worlds with fm 06, since when i've just been hoping the next version has improved everything i've noted. but i think i'm going to set my mind to task and write everything i feel with regards to the base assumptions that the game's engine shouldn't follow on and more once fm 09 is out and i get some good time with the game, having been disappointed with the demo so far.

the point what jimmy was making, or at least one that i took from since it encompasses my personal opinion too is that whilst wwfan/et al's work is impressive for the pure depth of study, it and in turn, the FM match engine; they both seem to be basing off on assumptions that aren't all necessarily true and thus providing us with an incomplete and inherently flawed system with (intentionally) flawed default tactics as presented with the teasers at least. i don't suppose i have to say that i've agreed with any of the tt&f's fully before either. and yes, i've read them all from the very first version or so on fm-britain.

I think you've missed the point if you think these tactics are, quote, "intentionally flawed". They're not. They're intentionally generic so they will achieve decent results with most teams but will require specific tweaking.

I can't speak for wwfan, but I don't want to create an "unflawed" set of tactics to be used by Leeds United using this specific 11 players during October 2011 on a warm Thurday evening. Tactics are by their very nature not going to work exactly as planned in all situations for all teams at all times.

The "assumptions" aren't necessarily true. But what is true? I'm not saying that to be flippant, but it strikes me that quite a lot of people haven't actually said what they consider to be the absolute way to "know" how the system works. Would having an SI bod literally coming on here and handing you the ME code work?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but unless someone tests, theorises, comes up with tactics and ideas and gets them to work and then shares with the community what they think they've found, is there any other way to do it?

The TT&F comes with the blessing of the bloke who coded the match engine, including an introduction. If we were "making it up" or "lying" he wouldn't do that. It's not in his or his company's best interests to allow us to spout horseshit about the game and therefore annoy everybody reading.

So, yes, "assumptions". But they are by no means baseless and are the result of a lot of testing in conjunction with SI.

As for not agreeing with anything we've/wwfan's written? That's quite worrying. I can understand not agreeing with our method or even our conclusions, but to agree with nothing suggests that we've made some major, major errors in our calculations. I'd like to hear more.

don't worry though, i don't want to seem like i'm just criticising unconstructively. i've been slowly writing my piece on the subject of 'football' having noted intrinsic issues first in CM 01/02 but i was far too young and lazy and then grew indifferent until i rejoined these worlds with fm 06, since when i've just been hoping the next version has improved everything i've noted. but i think i'm going to set my mind to task and write everything i feel with regards to the base assumptions that the game's engine shouldn't follow on and more once fm 09 is out and i get some good time with the game, having been disappointed with the demo so far.

I'm looking forward to that. There's a lot in the game we would love to see changed, especially regarding the "unintuitive" (quotations very important there) tactics interface. In the mean time, though, since we have to play the game (if we're going to play the game) Warts And All, it makes sense to try and explain the system as it is now, surely, regardless of its shortcomings?

sorry i worded that in a rush, i'm in a rush again so i can't elaborate too much. what i meant was, i personally dislike the match engine and find quite some of the assumptions it goes by on to be flawed (f.ex marking systems, another example would be the way it relates passing system to some of the slider tabs, and generally the 'mentality' slider) and i've come to this conclusion of years of playing the incarnations, albeit not SPECIFICALLY testing as you guys have. i didn't mean to sound as if i was discrediting your work, no you guys have done fantastic work in analysing the system and offering your ways to play the game after learning about it and of course i have learnt from you guys too, plenty infact. i simply meant to say i disagree with how some of your writing looks at the game (of football, not fm) but that is of course inevitable since you guys are going off purely based on the system. when i said intentionally flawed tactics, i meant it would be flawed in a realistic sense to apply in a real world but does ofcourse apply itself well since it's conditioned to the frameworks that's held by the game. again, i didn't mean to criticise you or your work but more the match engine. i apologise for my poor writing, the 'thesis' on the other hand, won't be as confusing i hope.

with regards to "As for not agreeing with anything we've/wwfan's written? That's quite worrying. I can understand not agreeing with our method or even our conclusions, but to agree with nothing suggests that we've made some major, major errors in our calculations. I'd like to hear more." i presume that was poor wording on my part again, i meant i don't agree 'fully', as in whilst i do for the majority, i don't think a portion of the previous tt&f's i've read would translate well into the real footballing strategical scenario - however, as i've already mentioned earlier this is because you guys are analysing the match engine provided by the game as opposed to having a real life philosophy / strategy and translating it across. this isn't a criticism either, infact it's a compliment since you guys do of course possess more knowledge about the game (fm) itself than likely any other around the globe and your work and generosity in sharing it all must be applauded.

with all the 'moaning', i don't want it to seem i don't like fm either, that's ******** of course. i appreciate every single minute that's been put into the game and no other game has come close (i've tried every version of last year) and if in my past and future posts i do seem negative i simply am trying to suggest there's plenty of room for improvement, not dismissing anything.

Brilliant as always, thanks wwfan and Millie!

I can't believe how people can be so harsh when something that took SO much work is being released for free for all of us to make our experiences with the game more enjoyable and feed interesting discussions on the boards. That's a shame. But I guess these kind of people are everywhere =/

I would just like to see some proof of this guy putting his ideas in practice. Would be cool if he made a youtube vid instead of all this scripture stating logical facts about football that we all know.

EDIT: I'm not having a go at you wwfan, I respect the effort you put in. I'm sure people get some positive results from it.

I would just like to see some proof of this guy putting his ideas in practice. Would be cool if he made a youtube vid instead of all this scripture stating logical facts about football that we all know.

EDIT: I'm not having a go at you wwfan, I respect the effort you put in. I'm sure people get some positive results from it.

I agree, it would be nice, but that was not our task. It was apparent in testing that a significant number of people did not know how the sliders interacted. As these people are specifically chosen to partake in the Beta due to their knowledge and dedication to the game, it was worrying that this was an issue. Hence, we worked on a layman's guide to tactics. If you know it all and it tells you nothing, then great, you don't need to read it. However, there are many others for whom the slider system is a logistical nightmare.

As Paul writes in the introduction, our guide is useful for beginners and advanced players alike. The beginner may find it removes the blinkers from his eyes, whereas the advanced player will have a few more things to play around with. Believe me, it is not an easy task to pitch a guide that can cover both.

wwfan, any chance of that pdf now? my game is up and running

I agree, it would be nice, but that was not our task. It was apparent in testing that a significant number of people did not know how the sliders interacted. As these people are specifically chosen to partake in the Beta due to their knowledge and dedication to the game, it was worrying that this was an issue. Hence, we worked on a layman's guide to tactics. If you know it all and it tells you nothing, then great, you don't need to read it. However, there are many others for whom the slider system is a logistical nightmare.

As Paul writes in the introduction, our guide is useful for beginners and advanced players alike. The beginner may find it removes the blinkers from his eyes, whereas the advanced player will have a few more things to play around with. Believe me, it is not an easy task to pitch a guide that can cover both.

It's good to know that the guide is in safe hands then. I've been looking on some of your threads (and i saw your youtube appearance) and you talk a lot of sense. I'll keep an eye out for your articles. I assumed you were another one of these people who create tactics with Man U/Barcelona then come on here and telling us how to play the game.

*quietly slides out of thread

Any news on the guide lads?

Yep. There's a whole thread dedicated to it.