My Thoughts - "Why we are up in arms" (FOR SI Eyes Too)

Guys,

Just wanted to give my opinions on why I think many people have thrown their toys out of the pram since the demo was released.

It's really quite simple. It's happened with Pro Evolution Soccer in their "2008" and "2009" titles, and also with Far Cry 2 which was recently released also.

These games, and more so with FM, have a cult following of people. A Hardcore section of players (again, as I mention, FM more than most) who consider the game to be, well, "THEIRS".

The problem is unfortunately a product of the success SI have had year on year with their new releases. Every year we (fans!) wait with baited breath as a new version is primed and ready for release. With the anticipation growing with the leak of every new feature, a frenzy of community posts ensues. The problem is that year after year the releases have, on the whole, served to quench that thirst for a new feature rich FM environment in which to frolic.

The scene is set for a day when SI don't manage to hit their and our lofty standards. I believe that FM2009 WILL hit those standards, but from Demo release, I think everyone can agree that for the most part, they have been dissappointed with this years offering.

So, whilst I don't always like some of the abuse SI are getting off the back of their demo, SI have to understand that they themselves have raised the bar. For instance, if we use the following analogy, I think all will become clear.

E.g. You work in an office and at the end of the quarter your boss tells you you have done a great job, and here is an extra £500 on your salary. The next quarter ends, and your boss, once again comes to you and says "Well Done" and gives you another £500 on your salary. Bouyed by the previous bonuses, you enter the 3rd quarter, trying even harder and working longer hours. Your boss comes to you again and says "Excellent" and tops up your salary again...this time by only £100.

Should you be unhappy, or should you be happy to have another bonus? It's obvious isn't it...you're still be given something....but your motivation going forward will have dipped due to the fact that your expectations of £500 haven't been met...whilst, your boss has still given you a bonus and as such, feels content with his input.

OK so a slightly warped analogy (although it works) but I think that it shows the reason we are all feeling let down.

I can run Football Manager 2008 with no problems on my, regretably, ageing laptop (another thing I think SI Games have missed out on...I think most people play on their laptops or second PC's and not glued to their office PC's!) but I can't even launch FM2009! I would expect to be able to play using 2D as I meet everything but the 3D gfx standards on this laptop.

Without wishing to continue, or to trample on my points previously, I just hope SI will read this, and reply addressing some of the areas I have commented on.

What do you all think? Am I about right?

The problem is that when they anticipate a Release it goes badly wrong ie cm3, cm4 and now fm09 all have been hyped up then the others and all are filled with bugs.

If you look back at previous releases there are always bugs and droves of people are disappointed. Why did anyone expect this year to be any different?

Guys,

I think everyone can agree that for the most part, they have been dissappointed with this years offering.

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement. If your basing that on these forums, do you not think that people who ARE disappointed are much more likely to post on the forum than the people who are pleased and just playing it?

Personally, although I cant get the demo to run on one PC that is below minimum spec graphically, on another machine that it does run I think its the biggest leap forward for years. Not perfect, obviously, but really good nevertheless.

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement. If your basing that on these forums, do you not think that people who ARE disappointed are much more likely to post on the forum than the people who are pleased and just playing it?

Personally, although I cant get the demo to run on one PC that is below minimum spec graphically, on another machine that it does run I think its the biggest leap forward for years. Not perfect, obviously, but really good nevertheless.

I too can play this on another PC - my post is based mainly on playing devil's advocate on the part of the people who cannot.

My point is that with all the issues that SI failed to iron out, technical and non-technical, they have caused a bigger stir than every necessary.

If you look back at previous releases there are always bugs and droves of people are disappointed. Why did anyone expect this year to be any different?

I haven't played the demo, so I can't comment on it. However, in answer to your question, I would say that I personally got the feeling that SI really believed this edition would be different. Maybe I was wooed too easily by the videos and such, but I allowed myself to believe that we were going to be blown away.

good OP, why cant everybody just be happy, i am personally glued to the 3D view while on every other version i was on commentary only.

Obviously i can see where people are coming from with the bugs [ and was interesting to read a post from one of the testers on here stating that they did flag an issue in testing but was not resolved for demo, altho i cant find the link anymore : ( ]

Guys,

I think everyone can agree that for the most part, they have been dissappointed with this years offering.

I think that it shows the reason we are all feeling let down.

Those two comments negate everything else you posted.

You have no right to post such assertions without actual numbers (which are impossible to glean from this forum).

How many are happy and how many unhappy? You have no idea at all.

I have been massively dissapointed by the demo on a personal level. How i long for the days of CM 01/02. They were simpler times. I could come home after a hards days work, turn on the pc for a few hours and have some fun and win some games. Now i come home i have to adjust tactics for nearly every game, set opposition instructions all the time, play around with sliders, arrows, barrows and mia farrows. It just isnt 'fun' anymore. I think FM09 is only designed for the serious gamers leaving the occasional guys like me on the wayside.

Maybe SI could look to bring in a difficulty rating in the future? With a game like Civ they have the difficulty rating so it can stay interesting for all so why not FM? Its not that i want the game to be easy but its something i just want to be able to get right into without messing around with tactics for the majority of my gaming time.

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement. If your basing that on these forums, do you not think that people who ARE disappointed are much more likely to post on the forum than the people who are pleased and just playing it?

Personally, although I cant get the demo to run on one PC that is below minimum spec graphically, on another machine that it does run I think its the biggest leap forward for years. Not perfect, obviously, but really good nevertheless.

Those two comments negate everything else you posted.

You have no right to post such assertions without actual numbers (which are impossible to glean from this forum).

How many are happy and how many unhappy? You have no idea at all.

I disagree. I've been a member of the forums sometime and a player of CM/FM for much longer. I have never seen the sort of attack SI has been the 'victim' of on these forums at the demo/full release of any of their previous games. Whilst not everyone was happy with the game in previous years...technically most were accepting. This year however has been completely different.

Of course you are always going to get exceptions, but I think my assertion that many people are unhappy are backed up by the negative posts this year compared to the number from previous years.

Thanks for the comment though.

I disagree. I've been a member of the forums sometime and a player of CM/FM for much longer. I have never seen the sort of attack SI has been the 'victim' of on these forums at the demo/full release of any of their previous games. Whilst not everyone was happy with the game in previous years...technically most were accepting. This year however has been completely different..

Last year alone the attacks were far more vehement and long lasting with far less justification.

This year many of the complaints are understandable even if misguided, fortunately most of the big issues are black and white this time.

Injuries will be adjusted if it proves necessary.

Technical problems, many are user end such as too low spec, sad but a fact of life in a field where technology advances by the day.

3D for the first time blew up a load of graphics card issues, that's happened on every game/application I ever worked on, it's because of the huge number of possible cards and configurations. Fortunately a large number seem to be specific to one card type, so hopefully one fix will resolve a large number of problems.

The most interesting thing iv seen bout all this are the people sticking up for SI as if their a kid being bullied in a playground. Now i understand that some of the posts are starting to get a bit harsh, but SI are still a company producing a game for us. Not a bullied child. The posts no matter how harsh are just explaining why they wont be spending their money on this game. Surely the whole point of making a game is so that people will buy it and spend money and therefore make you a profit. The general point that most people are making is concerning the bugs... eg is it truely unreasonable to expect a game on release to be at least playable, without the need to patch straight away?

I have been massively dissapointed by the demo on a personal level. How i long for the days of CM 01/02. They were simpler times. I could come home after a hards days work, turn on the pc for a few hours and have some fun and win some games. Now i come home i have to adjust tactics for nearly every game, set opposition instructions all the time, play around with sliders, arrows, barrows and mia farrows. It just isnt 'fun' anymore. I think FM09 is only designed for the serious gamers leaving the occasional guys like me on the wayside.

Maybe SI could look to bring in a difficulty rating in the future? With a game like Civ they have the difficulty rating so it can stay interesting for all so why not FM? Its not that i want the game to be easy but its something i just want to be able to get right into without messing around with tactics for the majority of my gaming time.

You do see the problem with that, don't you? Your asking for the game to remain still and never evolve. If that happened, people would complain nothing has changed from one incarnation to the next.

Can SI ever please all of the people all of the time? Of course not.

Its not an issue of whether game evolves or not. I am all for change. Like the 3d element of the game is potentially great. That isnt my concern though. I just feel that if they are going to start making the game too technical (which in my eyes i feel they have done) then they should also offer the abilty to make the game Proffesional or Semi-Pro. It may still be too much for me nowadays but at least it will give the 'casual' gamer a fairer chance. And if they think they will have fairer chance then hey the people that are disilussioned now may end up buying the game in the future.

I have always seen CM/FM as a cult game for the masses. I hope it doesnt end up just being a cult game........but without the masses.

That's not a bad idea. Obviously, logistically, it might be tricky to implement.

Obviously on '09 it would be but hey fingers crossed for 2010 already!

eg is it truely unreasonable to expect a game on release to be at least playable, without the need to patch straight away?

But it hasn't been released yet.

If the fixes are in place by release day and you're buying a digital download there won't need to be a patch, it'll be patched in situ.

That only leaves the DVD copies and it's a fact of life now that all software sold on DVD/CD needs post release patches, another fact of life is that SI bother to patch FM, many companies don't.

Digital sales have made it possible to have a short public beta and get essential fixes in for the actual release, really that's the best of both worlds.

If you're not prepared to go digital you're giving yourself a problem you don't have to have.

I think the games great. Thumbs up from me SI.

But it hasn't been released yet.

If the fixes are in place by release day and you're buying a digital download there won't need to be a patch, it'll be patched in situ.

That only leaves the DVD copies and it's a fact of life now that all software sold on DVD/CD needs post release patches, another fact of life is that SI bother to patch FM, many companies don't.

Digital sales have made it possible to have a short public beta and get essential fixes in for the actual release, really that's the best of both worlds.

If you're not prepared to go digital you're giving yourself a problem you don't have to have.

Yes but when the digital option costs around £9 more than a boxed copy then I'll happily save myself the money and go online to download the patch.

In the current climate, money wins out everytime.

I have to say (something I didnt earlier) that perhaps if they didn't persist on releasing a game EVERY year, more time would be available to polish some of the new features rather than release half cocked and under tested. You have a triangle in Project Management. Cost, Functionality, and Time.....9/10 something has to give. In this instance, TIME is without doubt the overriding factor for SI...thus any failings can only ever occur in the funding of a project, i.e. coming in over budget, or the functionality/quality of the product...because there is no way they are going to miss a deadline!

Simple Project Management guys....sad but true.

Yes but when the digital option costs around £9 more than a boxed copy then I'll happily save myself the money and go online to download the patch.

In the current climate, money wins out everytime.

Well that I agree with, but don't forget that you have to go online even with a boxed copy to authenticate, so as long as they link the patch to the authentication procedure you can't miss out on it.

you cant make statements attacking the game and then put down anyone who disagrees with you as "protecting their baby". that is just stupid and makes you look foolish. the fact is last year there were many more bugs and problems than this year. this year there have been very few problems. the injury problem and the video issues some have had are the only major problems people have reported. the fact is that many people are reporting the same thing. i would love to see people post up other bugs that are major and ruin the game but so far i havnt seen them.

i am annoyed at the injury bug and i have noticed the small bugs with 3d but on the whole the 3d runs smooth for me and im loving the game. sorry for protecting my baby but thats how i feel about fm 2009 and i think i have as much right as anyone else to an opinion.

more comments result from more users and more advertisement of the game. And of course, the more complex a game, the more possibility for complaining.

SI improve the game on a much wider level than the numerous complaints here on the forum are. Think about that for a minute.

Regarding specs... when a game like Oblivion or alike comes out, ppl will upgrade their computers weeks in advance without the smallest complaint. Everyone here seems like spoiled little kids, who don't understand the world because they have to upgrade their computer for what is just a football manager.

I think the point about expectations is true. We are all so gee-ed up for this game that when the inevitable bugs and problems appeared we reacted more harshly than we should.

FM moves in incarnations. CM4 started a incarnation which finished really with a amazing game - FM07 - which was nigh on perfect. FM08 appears to have been a stopgap, and one that polarised opinion. Now we move into a new era. CM 01/02 is never coming back, we all have fantastic memories of those old games, but a series of games is just that, a continuation of a idea. They could have stopped with 01/02. They could feasilbly have stopped with CM4 and certaintly with FM07. But they don't, they keep trying to bring in something new and thats going to affect peoples opinions each time.

FM09 could be a amazing game. I think it has the potential. I think we need to get the full version, get it patched (for better or worse) and only then will we know if its going to enter the pantheon of great FM versions, or if its a devisive, decisive moment in putting people off the game for good as it gets increasingly heavier to play. Basically, its just different, and everybody needs time to adjust.

You don't sell a new signing after a poor pre-season game. You judge him after 10 games, half a season, half his contract. We won't know if FM09 is really any good until Christmas. Its a marathon not a sprint, and SI, despite mine and others doubts that they're about to "go all FIFA-ish and weird", always seem to make it a marathon worth running.

Post of the day /\

Regarding specs... when a game like Oblivion or alike comes out, ppl will upgrade their computers weeks in advance without the smallest complaint. Everyone here seems like spoiled little kids, who don't understand the world because they have to upgrade their computer for what is just a football manager.

Football Manager is not your average game for the average gamers. People that play Oblivion and other similar games have always had to be aware of the system specs. More than that, they are the more knowledgeable bunch when it comes to PC hardware because that's a necessity if one wishes to play these games.

FM has never been like that. It has always worked on older hardware. Half of the FM fanbase are not gamers. The only game they play is FM. Of course they are not happy if their laptop that they bought not so long ago now suddenly is not good enough. Most of them don't even know what a graphics card is. Furthermore, they were promised that if their PC's can't handle the 3D they'd still get 2D. Now it's suddenly become apparent this is not to be the case. Those people in the main are not 'spoilt kids', they are just potential customers and fans who are upset because they now can't play the only game they want to play. Is this really so hard to understand?

Why is it always the same year after year, people complain and complain. If you dont want to buy the game because of a few bugs that will be ironed out in the patch then dont buy it until the patch is out and others have confirmed its ok.

Well, firstly I am sure that I will be more than happy with this year's serving if the release day patch fixes the most important issues. Apart from my game crashing all the time it looks like a good and big step forward again.

in regard of the argument the game would be better on release if they just released one every two years, I strongly doubt that. First of all, they would not be able to maintain theior manpower behind the game and secondly, though it is and should not be designed this way, the vast number of people playing the game after release will find bugs or issues quicker and better than any competent testing team ever could. So the big beta-test of the release version by the customers ensures quick progression of quality, something which could not be achieved by SI giving themelves more time. (please note, I don't complain about being used as a paying beta tester, it's obviously not SI's objective to release games which are not as good as possible on the release date)

My first impression of the 3D engine was "what a bag of sh*t" but after a bit of time it's grown on me and I now quite enjoy watching players seemingly react to instruction I have given them. (At least in my eyes they react to my instructions but maybe I have a good imagination!!) Yes, the graphics are not up to the standards of Fifa 09 or PES but did we ever expect them to be? Yes, there are issues with players standing still, goalkeepers acting strangely and many other mentioned across the forums but for the last number of years we have been watching circles moving around the screen and agonised over once of these circles needlessly giving a stray pass or losing possession in midfield. At least now we (or at least those can can run the 3D engine) can actually see the player rather than tearing our hair out over a circle so surely SI need to be applaud for trying the 3D engine, that for many a year people across this forum were asking them to implement anyway.

Of course it's annoying that a lot of these bugs were not spotted during the testing phase and it's not ideal that you need to download a patch on the day you buy the game but as pointed out above this is the industry norm at the moment. If your laptop/PC can't handle the game that is not SI's fault and name me one PC game that does not give issues to at least a small percentage of it's users? If you want a game to run without graphic card issues or driver errors then buy a console instead but conflicts have been a PC gamer issue for many a year now.

Hopefully by the time the game is released SI wil have smoothened the rough egdes of the demo but essentially they have given us what they have always provided in the past, an upgraded version, even with it's flaws, of the best management game available. If you don't like it, don't buy it and wait to see if FM2010 is an improvement. If you are willing to give SI a chance then get your copy on November 14th and prepare to put your life on hold for a few weeks.

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Thank you! *blushes* :-)

The most interesting thing iv seen bout all this are the people sticking up for SI as if their a kid being bullied in a playground. Now i understand that some of the posts are starting to get a bit harsh, but SI are still a company producing a game for us. Not a bullied child. The posts no matter how harsh are just explaining why they wont be spending their money on this game. Surely the whole point of making a game is so that people will buy it and spend money and therefore make you a profit. The general point that most people are making is concerning the bugs... eg is it truely unreasonable to expect a game on release to be at least playable, without the need to patch straight away?

What is unreasonable about releasing a patch?

The fact they are releasing a patch is to be commended, at least they are aknowledging problems and fixing them.

The more patches the better I say. At least you can have fixes/improvements without waiting to pay for a later version of the game.

You are right in saying bugs are unnacceptable but the whole point of a patch is to fix them.

I commend SI for releasing a patch...but for 'some' the game just isn't PLAYABLE technically....for others it crashes.....it's one thing releasing a game that has some bugs...it's another releasing it where a certain number of people simply cannot play the game AT ALL.

Ask any developer worth their salt and they will tell you that's unacceptable. There is a little thing called Beta Testing/Testing before the User Acceptance Testing (Which effectively the demo is!)....don't just skip part of the process.

Having said that..if they sort why I can't even load the game then I'll be happy.....er

you are not understanding, arent you?if you have a low end machine/old machine/PASSED AWAY F****** PC than it can not be played...that is the reason for which the fm 09 game is not starting at your pc...want example?ill give it to you...i have a laptop, amd athlone 64 x2(2,1 Ghz), 2 Giga Ram(from wich 128 have been drawn for the video card), and, as i already said in the brackets and as anyone can figure it out, the video card is implemented, its an INTEGRATED ATI RADEON X1250....and 3d works...you just need a good video card(if it is integrated, at least have one that has been released nowadays, not in 1600 BC)...so all the ones that do not play fm09 cause its not working, F****** update your pc/laptop...i am a tester, and have a 7 month experience in PC projects(2 as a matter of fact-cause other months are at other consoles)...and I SURELY KNOW that producers do not have much to do to make a game WORK ON ANY VIDEO CARD available on the market...its just too hard and too time spending...and so, they concentrate to improve other parts of the game than stay 24h with 24 to make a god damn passed away video card work with a game that is released in god damned 2009(where technology has to be up to date)....so they will make the game run on a smaller ranged video cards(from ati and from nvidia) and than, after that is ok, move on to make the game better in other sections...thats it...live with it and if not upgrade pc

On being too technical, well I would say to SI's defence I think you can adjust how hands on you are. The added realism makes the game more exciting, you get more control if that's what you want. I think as well sometimes after playing the game for a year it becomes a bit too easy to suceed. But as I say there's choices there to make the game faster and less involved.

Reserves - Manage/Not

Youths - Manage/Not

Team talks - You/Assistant

Pick team - You/Assistant

Media - Comment/No comment

Feeder clubs - Yes/No

etc

Those two comments negate everything else you posted.

You have no right to post such assertions without actual numbers (which are impossible to glean from this forum).

How many are happy and how many unhappy? You have no idea at all.

Why? He has not made a statement, he has posted a thought he has had, and then followed that up with a question....how does that constitute to an assertion?

That only leaves the DVD copies and it's a fact of life now that all software sold on DVD/CD needs post release patches, another fact of life is that SI bother to patch FM, many companies don't.

All software sold on DVD/CD? Anything to back that claim up?

I have been massively dissapointed by the demo on a personal level. How i long for the days of CM 01/02. They were simpler times. I could come home after a hards days work, turn on the pc for a few hours and have some fun and win some games. Now i come home i have to adjust tactics for nearly every game, set opposition instructions all the time, play around with sliders, arrows, barrows and mia farrows. It just isnt 'fun' anymore. I think FM09 is only designed for the serious gamers leaving the occasional guys like me on the wayside.

Maybe SI could look to bring in a difficulty rating in the future? With a game like Civ they have the difficulty rating so it can stay interesting for all so why not FM? Its not that i want the game to be easy but its something i just want to be able to get right into without messing around with tactics for the majority of my gaming time.

Couldn't be more spot on there mate. It feels like the game has developed almost too far. I think FM 05 was the last time i really enjoyed the game. Im not sure if the match engine dramatically changed between FM 05 and the latter versions but it did seem to jump in difficulty. I have played and play football at a reasonable semi-professional and nobody is sitting in the changing room with a sliders ranging from 1 to 20. It is not realistic. If anything i would emphasise a greater importance on motivation. Every edition since then has become harder for the average gamer like myself. I was really looking forward to the new 3D but unfortunately like many i wont be able to play it on my laptop and nor will most casual players of the game. I would consider buying a graphics card etc. But i don't have a clue where to start. I think this may be one version too far for me and I most probably wont be buying it when the full version is released. Maybe I'm just rubbish at Football Manager or maybe I'm just too old for it now haha anyway just thought I'd give my two pence worth. Now to prepare for the barrage of abuse from the hardcore SI fans haha

i cant use 3d as my video card on my laptop is pants lol but if i go windowed and run 2d it runs fine so i am cool. Will still be buying fm2009 and will love every min(the second i install the new patch lol). I understand ppl upset they cant use 3d but hey thats my bad for buying a cheap ass laptop, but when i bought it i just got it for fm2008 and the net am not that bothered in the end

I played one game and just for a change the opposition switched to 4-2-4 late on and grabbed a goal. Because that always happens in real life.

I think the "makers" do underestimate that they have a complete different view on a game, as they have the development time right in front their eyes. They starting with something that is very bugged and unfinished and over the months it looks better and better just to the point they think it's ready. But the costumers start again at the point zero. They see all the bugs and issues and have to wait for the first patch to see an improvement.

Both sides should consider this. It needs one or two patches until both expectations are on the same level.

With a game like Civ they have the difficulty rating so it can stay interesting for all so why not FM?

The difficulty level in Civ changes how much the AI cheats.

On the easiest setting, the AI is gimped and can do **** all while you mince around the map with stealth bombers and tanks

On the harder settings, the AI is given huge bonuses, cheats to merry hell and your options for success are severely limited.

Football is not like that. So FM should not be like that.

I have been massively dissapointed by the demo on a personal level. How i long for the days of CM 01/02. They were simpler times. I could come home after a hards days work, turn on the pc for a few hours and have some fun and win some games. Now i come home i have to adjust tactics for nearly every game, set opposition instructions all the time, play around with sliders, arrows, barrows and mia farrows. It just isnt 'fun' anymore. I think FM09 is only designed for the serious gamers leaving the occasional guys like me on the wayside.

Maybe SI could look to bring in a difficulty rating in the future? With a game like Civ they have the difficulty rating so it can stay interesting for all so why not FM? Its not that i want the game to be easy but its something i just want to be able to get right into without messing around with tactics for the majority of my gaming time.

Couldn't be more spot on there mate. It feels like the game has developed almost too far. I think FM 05 was the last time i really enjoyed the game. Im not sure if the match engine dramatically changed between FM 05 and the latter versions but it did seem to jump in difficulty. I have played and play football at a reasonable semi-professional and nobody is sitting in the changing room with a sliders ranging from 1 to 20. It is not realistic. If anything i would emphasise a greater importance on motivation. Every edition since then has become harder for the average gamer like myself. I was really looking forward to the new 3D but unfortunately like many i wont be able to play it on my laptop and nor will most casual players of the game. I would consider buying a graphics card etc. But i don't have a clue where to start. I think this may be one version too far for me and I most probably wont be buying it when the full version is released. Maybe I'm just rubbish at Football Manager or maybe I'm just too old for it now haha anyway just thought I'd give my two pence worth. Now to prepare for the barrage of abuse from the hardcore SI fans haha

You won't get abused, it's a problem many have because FM is trying to simulate the real thing, that means it's not a game for the casual enthusiast and why they created it for other platforms in a less intensive format.

Too complicated? yes it is if you want a casual management game.

I'd give FML a go if I were you, it's more a fun thing and contrary to many opinions is trying very hard to cater for casual gamers.

FM is like going to work I've heard it said, I'm not arguing with that:)

May well give it a crack then. Might have a look at some of the rival stuff aswell as I haven't really payed any attention to them since buying CM 01/02. Its nice to have a sensible discussion about the game though.

A simple message for those who don't like the game is , why are you on here and why are you playing it? If you don't like it, don't buy it! Go and buy something else , there is no point you all being on here if you simply don't like the game.

Same every year, people posting "I have cancelled!" "I won't be buying after playing the demo"

Then the week after release these people are on again complaining about the game, so they didn't cancel and they did buy!

People who have actual problems with the game get help on here if they post accurately what the problem is, if its a bug use the bug support forum and follow the guidlines. If all you say is "this is crap" "it doesnt work" how is anyone supposed to help? Yet these are the vast majority of posts we see here every year.

How many other game companies out there give us this much interaction with the people who actually program and design the game? How many have had online conversations via email, PM or posts on a Forum with the programmers at EA or other companies???

Stop moaning, if you have a problem and need help then ask and explain the problem, if you aren't sure if its a bug then ask! But be positive, be polite and be sensible , the replies you get in return will surprise you!

It's a tough one. At the end of the day SI are a development studio and produce a complex piece of software that can never be perfect in terms of how it represents football and as to the level of bugs in the game. A game like this will always have bugs.

I think at the end of the day is really to do with whoever deals with testing and PR purposes. You have a game that has the most blatent bugs in it and should really of been detected way before release. Kudos to SI/Sega for releasing a patch on 1st day of release, but they have to due to the size of the fan base etc etc, and also gives a jab to piracy as cracked .exe's will not work with the game if it's been patched (not for a lilttle while anyway).

I also believe the PR thing has been a joke. IMO we've had one of the most if not the most hyped release of any FM or CM (under SI) to date. We've heard over the years that the 3D element will only be done when it's right and the tech is there to do so. 3D engine is really not what I and others were expecting and is far from the hyped version.

We have the YouTube videos of Miles talking about all the features and bug eradication and then within hours of the demo being released...BUG..BUG...BUGS are there to be seen and not just little minor hard to see ones.

Obviously Sega and SI want this game to be advertised and hyped up, but it's got to the case where the hype has been too much.

Don't get me wrong Fm 2009 is a very good game (from the demo) and I'm sure it will beo sorted out, but it does remind me of CM4 where you have a whole new system in place that's ambitious and takes a few releases over the years to get things right.

I have cancelled my preorder from Play.Com, and will re-evaluate at a later date to see if the 3D and even 2D has been improved.

To NeilUK

I think thats a fair comment mate however the vast majority of people in this topic are having a mature conversations. Surely in a forum people should be able to voice their opinions and criticise the game. Wouldn't be a very good forum if everyone came on here and said its a brilliant game haha anyway like I said for some people like myself, who enjoy a more casual game they will switch to a rival. I do feel bad though after so many years of loyalty but for me its just no longer enjoyable.