Determination

[Blue 4 Life]

This is driving me insane.

I've had a couple of promising youngsters coming through who I loaned out to continue developing. I mean the best way to develop a youngster is to send him out on loan to play games, right? 

I had a centre midfielder who was developing well with a determination stat of 18. Within 1 season being sent out on loan, this players determination stat has dropped to 14. The players stats over the last 2 months of my save have steadily declined. I don't think this player will improve any further.

I've checked out each player in this team and the highest determination rating from the starting 11 is 14. Clearly, the squads lack of determination has affected my youngster and I will watch out for this in the future before loaning anyone else out.

I have an 18 year old youngster with a determination stat of 20. I've loaned this player out to the same club and I'm praying when I finish my season, his determination stays 20 to give him the best possible chance to continue developing and reach his maximum potential. 

I'm thinking with other promising youngsters with a high determination stat, is it better to not loan these players out? I think determination is the most important stat for young players developing isn't it?

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, Blue 4 Life said:

I mean the best way to develop a youngster is to send him out on loan to play games, right? 

Not necessarily.  Whilst training and playing matches at a relevant level are always important for player development, below the age of 18 training takes precedence.  It's also of note that if you loan out a player you lose all control over that player's development.  So it's usually unwise to loan out any player younger than 18.

Once they hit 18 then playing at a relevant level takes precedence (although training remains important).  So always take note of your coach reports, especially where it says what level the player is ready for.  If you think they are near your first team then it's probably a good idea to put them there and forget about loaning.

But wherever they end up they will most likely be influenced by the squad around them, impacting their personalities (including Determination as you have noted).  If loaning them has such a "negative" impact as you describe then you can always put them into a mentoring group on their return to have your own players influence them.  Even without a mentoring group they may still be influenced by your squad.

10 minutes ago, Blue 4 Life said:

I think determination is the most important stat for young players developing isn't it?

Determination, Professionalism and Ambition are all roughly equal for player development.

[Bot Makel]

 

I add to what @herne79 said that when you send a player on loan, you have to check the level of the training facilities and if when he plays he could get good ratings. Avoid sending him to teams fighting at the bottom of the leaderboard.

[Rashidi]

To add on to the two excellent posts, you need to make sure that young players are not overplayed either, jadedness and injury can drastically impact their development. To give you one example. I have a player called Nicolas Maffei, looked like an interesting prospect. He was developing well. 

Before he was 18 I gave him sporadic appearances in the first team to see how he would play. When he was 18 I gave him one match and he performed well for 45 mins, insisted immediately on a new contract, so I loaned him to Ajax. Now here's the important bit.

Ajax were planning to use him as a first team player, in the position i preferred him to play. I didn't want key player status. Ajax have superb training facilities so off he went. A season later his performances averaged 6.8 for Ajax, his development wasn't bad. I introduced him into my main team. He is now 19. 

First season I keep bringing him on as a sub, he plays really well, this rolls into his training. His performances in training are also good, but I keep this up for the duration of the season, making sure to only play him minimally but give him a total of 15 games spread over a season. So he could come on for 15 mins in one game, 30 mins in another but never more than 45. His development exploded. He finished the season as one of the best players in the team.

Now 20 he is a main team player. 

When it comes to developing players you need to draw up some kind of plan. The ideal one is to make sure the youth team is playing the same formation. And that you aren't one of those happy-go-lucky guys like me who feel like they need to play a different tactic each month for fun. When you do something like that it can adversely affect the development of your players. So do i only if you feel like you need a challenge.

[Blue 4 Life]

Thanks for your responses. They're all very lengthy, helpful responses and I appreciate you all taking your time out to help me with your advice. This striker I've loaned out with a 20 determination stat, I really think can become a world class striker if he continues to develop. He's both footed as well which helps. I'm into April in my current season, so I can't recall him from his loan spell. I hope he still has 20 determination when his loan spell finishes and then I will spend next season gradually introducing him to the first team. I will post the striker this evening, just so I can keep a record of where he's at now and see how he develops over my next few seasons. Thanks everyone! 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Blue 4 Life

[Blue 4 Life]

Here's my young striker, who signed for 4.3 million in January and I instantly loaned him out to a team in the English Championship division (I'm in the Premiership). He's developing nicely and there's nothing more satisfying than seeing lots of positive arrows, but I worry his determination will drop and he won't develop into the superstar I hope he can become. I will get him in the first team next season and take Rashidi's advice not to overplay him, then see what happens.

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Blue 4 Life
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[HanziZoloman]

That’s very interesting, please keep us up to date

[coppicat]

There really is some sort of "determination bug" in this game. Starting a game with team leaders who have low determination can really turn into a vicious circle. No matter how high determination your new signings have they will be influenced by the team leaders and gradually decline before they finally climb up the hierarchy themselves. By the time they themselves have taken over and become team leaders they will have declined in determination to the level where they now are influencing your new signings or youth players negatively who then start to drop in determination. For 4 seasons at Forrest its just been a constant drop in determination of all the high determination youngsters that have come into the team. Even star signings drop in determination when they arrive. I learned the hard way not to let the captain welcome any players .... determination dropped immediately after the welcome period was over. 

I have now spent the complete transfer budget in buying Tonali who was appointed captain immediately due to high determination, but unfortunately he has not climbed to team leader. Instead my world class striker with 12 in determination jumped to team leader and now yet another round of determination decreases has hit the team.      

[GianniM]

5 hours ago, coppicat said:

 No matter how high determination your new signings have they will be influenced by the team leaders and gradually decline before they finally climb up the hierarchy themselves.

Which in fact is odd, because when a player has a very high determination, it should mean that he won't be affected by other players' negative aspects as much 

[HanziZoloman]

On 23/10/2020 at 12:11, GianniM said:

Which in fact is odd, because when a player has a very high determination, it should mean that he won't be affected by other players' negative aspects as much 

Well if they’re many enough?

Seems a good image of real life teams. As bad bosses keep their illness record of employees when they change the company (e.g.).

It‘s a complete different task to take on a club during season with no good teamleaders. Then you have to cut them straight.

[HUNT3R]

On 23/10/2020 at 06:48, coppicat said:

There really is some sort of "determination bug" in this game. Starting a game with team leaders who have low determination can really turn into a vicious circle. No matter how high determination your new signings have they will be influenced by the team leaders and gradually decline before they finally climb up the hierarchy themselves. By the time they themselves have taken over and become team leaders they will have declined in determination to the level where they now are influencing your new signings or youth players negatively who then start to drop in determination. For 4 seasons at Forrest its just been a constant drop in determination of all the high determination youngsters that have come into the team. Even star signings drop in determination when they arrive. I learned the hard way not to let the captain welcome any players .... determination dropped immediately after the welcome period was over. 

I have now spent the complete transfer budget in buying Tonali who was appointed captain immediately due to high determination, but unfortunately he has not climbed to team leader. Instead my world class striker with 12 in determination jumped to team leader and now yet another round of determination decreases has hit the team.      

This is where good squad management can pay off. Get the influential poor personalities out and get a team with decent personalities. Mentor young players by putting them into groups with influential players who have good personalities (as long as you don't mind the likely Player Trait transfers) etc etc.

BUT, two things are worth mentioning here. Firstly, player personalities (of which Det is a part) are affected, not just Determination. 

Second, 12 Determination is still good and it shows - if your striker is world class he must have developed well. He probably has decent Amb and/or Prof along with that Determination. Those 3 are key attributes for development. Anyway, my point is that 12 Det is not bad at all.

[Rashidi]

On 23/10/2020 at 18:11, GianniM said:

Which in fact is odd, because when a player has a very high determination, it should mean that he won't be affected by other players' negative aspects as much 

That is not the case, as these can be random. A player with a great personality can always be affected by bad seeds.  Depends on how many bad seeds there are. He can also suffer from a drop of form, you could have always have been shouting " demand more" from him in games too. 

[GianniM]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

you could have always have been shouting " demand more" from him in games too

Does that drop determination? 

I quite regularly do this and they always react positively. 

[chadnw]

On 27/10/2020 at 02:05, GianniM said:

Does that drop determination? 

I quite regularly do this and they always react positively. 

Ya I do that all the time. Is it bad?

[GianniM]

29 minutes ago, chadnw said:

Ya I do that all the time. Is it bad?

Don't think so as long as they react positively. If they feel pressured it may be something else. 

[HanziZoloman]

I can imagine, as the players nearly always react positive on „demand more“ Shouts, maybe someday it just don’t work anymore or has bad influence. If somebody would consistently shout at me, I get used to it. On the other hand I often have „red“ reactions to „encourage“ Which I now use more often but it seems to have a positive effect on the results. But just my gut speaking ... I feel it ... 

would like to know what @Rashidi has to say on this topic

Edited October 29, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[chadnw]

I have always thought of this shout as asking  players to keep going, dig deep, rather than having a negative connotation. A way of pumping them up in the last 10 minutes before halftime or when things are stale. If there are long term consequences they have not been apparent. Though I do have a couple players with lowering determination and I am not sure why.

[ronnidalhoff]

On 27/10/2020 at 13:52, HUNT3R said:

This is where good squad management can pay off. Get the influential poor personalities out and get a team with decent personalities. Mentor young players by putting them into groups with influential players who have good personalities (as long as you don't mind the likely Player Trait transfers) etc etc.

BUT, two things are worth mentioning here. Firstly, player personalities (of which Det is a part) are affected, not just Determination. 

Second, 12 Determination is still good and it shows - if your striker is world class he must have developed well. He probably has decent Amb and/or Prof along with that Determination. Those 3 are key attributes for development. Anyway, my point is that 12 Det is not bad at all.

Well sometimes you dont have the luxury of letting go of the best players because their determination could be better. Ben Godfrey is now a team leader and he has dropped from 14 to 13 in determination since his arrival 3 years ago. Another team leader is Verschaeren who has dropped from 16 to 14 in determination since his arrival, also around 3 years ago. Determination drops of two have been normal and some players have even dropped by 3. (The world class striker has dropped from 14 to 12 since his arrival) Now hopefully the next player to become team leader will have a determination of 14 or more and the "bleeding" should stop by then. 

By the way Verschaeren is considered a good player for most Premier League teams and on 110K p/w but is priced at 5MM. Is this a bug? I have youngsters playing at Championship level who are worth more than that? 

Edited November 1, 2020 by ronnidalhoff

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, ronnidalhoff said:

Well sometimes you dont have the luxury of letting go of the best players because their determination could be better. Ben Godfrey is now a team leader and he has dropped from 14 to 13 in determination since his arrival 3 years ago. Another team leader is Verschaeren who has dropped from 16 to 14 in determination since his arrival, also around 3 years ago. Determination drops of two have been normal and some players have even dropped by 3. (The world class striker has dropped from 14 to 12 since his arrival) Now hopefully the next player to become team leader will have a determination of 14 or more and the "bleeding" should stop by then. 

1 or 2 points of Determination dropping isn't even a slight concern, imo. There's a mass of other attributes to worry about too and even for development purposes, there are two others plus you already have quite decent Det if it's 12-14.

[Sarmatian]

Do in-match shouts really affect determination (and other mental attributes) ?

[inacion]

Currently on my save I'm training Juventus, the B team plays on Serie B, Italian 2nd division. I only loan a player when there's top European divisions teams interested that grant at regular starter status at least. Otherwise it's better to have them playing on B team, so I can control their training and mentoring, and they are also available if there's a medium or long term injury on a first team player. On some cases if a top division team cannot offer at least regular status, I might consider the loan him but they have to be ready to pay unused fees

[inacion]

On 27/10/2020 at 06:52, HUNT3R said:

This is where good squad management can pay off. Get the influential poor personalities out and get a team with decent personalities. Mentor young players by putting them into groups with influential players who have good personalities (as long as you don't mind the likely Player Trait transfers) etc etc.

BUT, two things are worth mentioning here. Firstly, player personalities (of which Det is a part) are affected, not just Determination. 

Second, 12 Determination is still good and it shows - if your striker is world class he must have developed well. He probably has decent Amb and/or Prof along with that Determination. Those 3 are key attributes for development. Anyway, my point is that 12 Det is not bad at all.

I have Ferro and Cengiz Under on my squad, very good players, but they have only 11 on determination. I'm currently on year 2026 and they hit team leader status. To try build player partnerships I put them on mentoring groups, they are the most influential members resulting into some players dropping determination. Both are 29 years old, I'm looking for young players with good determination to replace them. They are good players but their influence is doing damage to squad determination