My little cautious nonpressure experiment

[Novem9]

With your permission, a little background  
I always loved defensive football. My favourite manager is Jose Mourinho and I like defensive coaches in general. IRL I played as deep playmaker since school times (and yes my icon is Pirlo). Its a big deal to beat Barca 8-2, but I still remember Juve in middle of 2000th which won 6 games of Group Stage by 1-0. It made a big impression on me.

When I started to play in FM some people told me that this game is not good for defensive/counter football. I started to play as most, but for now I realized two things - a) I dont feel possession styles, b) I'm bored and need something new. In past I tried to create some counter (cautious) for sure, but have a lot of issues.
For now is one new attempt to create something as Jose Mourinho tribute.

I started to play FM Touch version for focusing on matches only. I choose Spurs but just because a) I know this squad and b) if you play by underdog its no problem for lose points. But as big club, Spurs must win a lot of games. This is a good litmus test imo.

So what I have for this moment.

Formation and TI

At first I pay your attention on 3 untypical for modern times things:

1. Mentality is cautious. Tbh I hate attacking mentality and have negative reaction about how this mentality exploit as main for some tactics
2. Regroup. One more unpopular thing. 
3. Standart pressure. This set is more common, but most tactics use + or ++ pressure.

Its important for me to create something working in these borders - cautious mentality, regroup and without a lot of pressure.

Before I say about TI few words about PI. There are simple - attacking 4 have close down more and tackle harder. MEZ has tackle harder only.
So I want to see next:

• Stage 1 - I lose ball in opposite half. My team is regroup, but attacking 4 is first line of defence. They try to close space (more time for defence) and could to create new key attack by successful tackle.
  Example of this in this video - BWM (Dier) goes back as attacking 4+MEZ close down in high positions. In this way I use higher LOE
• Stage 2 - Team regrouped and patiently waiting for tackle - counterattack. Cautious mentality + no harder tackles for defensive line is good for this
• Stage 3 - Attack

It be honest to say that I created this tactic by influence of Inter 2010. There are no clear replica probably (but I dont try for this) but general idea and some details I used from this.
At first I believe the key player is MEZ. But at first I pay your attention for team shape:

• I have 3 players in defence (left FB is false CB ) 
• MEZ is open for passing in very many moments
• Right flank is more active for final decisions
• IF(a) confusing opposite player (show later)
• WB(a) is very important by providing support of attacks

I didnt plan this, but it happens  IF(a) is very focused for target role, so my IF has some 'slalom' across a field. He controls a ball, so opposite players could follow him. My WB and MEZ have a lot of space by this gambit. It happens regulary.

Sometimes I dont have a space by this moving, but this is give any effects anyway

 

Next thing I noticed in process of testing - I have AP, but MEZ is my 'shadow playmaker'. It means that MEZ is transit for many moments in own half, middle and late zones.

My MEZ there is #17 Sissoko. This is typical moment in general, in this kind of situations are 2 trends. 1) MEZ is unmarked and 2) He exploits empty space lovely. I guess its because AF, AP, IF and WB(a) draw away opposite players.

 

Btw, why BWM is deeper? At first I feel 4231 is vulnerable without DM. There are BWM is cover, not a cleaner only (role is agressive but cautious mentality left an imprint for him)

Also I dont use hold position PI, he needs in attacks too. I analyzed Cambiasso in Inter, which played the same style - attack supporter+ teammates cover + balls tackling

Also BWM is good option for first pass (and this is reason why I choose BWM(s), not (d) duty). If he played in the same line of MEZ - it was different effect. + deeper BWM gives more space for AP(s)

 

Stage 1 (regroup), Stage 2 (Tackle) and Stage 3 (Attack)

 

And last detail which I found in debut is overloading of right flank. Situtation is funny IMO

We have IF(a) which goes from wide for center, MEZ which play in half-wing and AP, which goes for a ball. Sometimes this allows for moments like this:

Lamela using long passing for right flank in this moment

 

Overloaded! (okay, in fact CB stopped the ball by heading in this moment, but it close)

 

Sometimes I feel like we dont have a left flank at all 

 

Simple goals are not denied

 

 

Its all good, but is nothing (or almost nothing) without results. There are nothing extra-special , but looks stable. All as I like  

 

One unlogilac losing, but I used rotation in cup game. To be fair, Norwich away was difficult in PL too. Brighton keeped the draw, and I started to worry about my tactic, but I beated Zebra Juve in next game. Sometimes I feeled that need play more aggressive, but I started to play this save exactly to investigate cautious style.

As it is an experiment, I dont change anything before/during games. All tactical settings as in screenshot.
Goals scoared by attacking players at first

I see 2 cases why I lose some points. 1) I believe too much for young Parrott. He is perspective young player, but I used him in important situations (like we won 2-1 MU and I changed Keane - Parrott on last 15 minutes) - my mistake. 2) Second - WB(a) is very important role and I dont have a backup (equal) for Aurier, which missed some games.
Also I didnt use wasting time TI and twice lost 2 points - vs Sheffield and vs Man City. Just wanted to check how my team worked in extreme situation when opposite team using extra-attacking mentality.

 

Before home game vs Red Star we are first

 

Talking about stats, sometimes I control game

Sometimes I dont

Any resume? Not sure  Probably ME needs more help for defensive styles, probably not.  I just happy to play few games without a big shame in a close style and want share my fun for community members  
Thank you for your attention, sorry for my English and feel free to write any tipes about my tactic or cautious style in general. Lets destroy gegenpess domination!  

Edited September 8, 2020 by Novem9
English grammatic

[Bitner]

Interesting take, that's for sure.

I'm playing in a 4-1-4-1 Counter in Ireland's second tier, but still have to wait some games to see...

Cheers,
Bitner 

[Enzo_Francescoli]

I like the approach and I do realize how hard it is to make somerhing like this work currently. But.. having four of your players to close down more and using a BWM who's hard-coded to max pressing and using an attack duty WB who'll press more even without the hard-coding .. all of that kinda takes away from the "no pressing" part, don't you think? Please take no offence, it's an interesting read, and I love some of the movement of your players.

[Novem9]

1 минуту назад, Enzo_Francescoli сказал:

Please take no offence

for sure   thank you for feedback at first.
This is second edition of tactic, first was more passive but it didnt work and I tried to fix issues.

6 минут назад, Enzo_Francescoli сказал:

having four of your players to close down more and using a BWM who's hard-coded to max pressing and using an attack duty WB who'll press more even without the hard-coding .. all of that kinda takes away from the "no pressing" part, don't you think?

I guess important difference is that my pressure in this tactic is troublemaking for opposite attacks, no agenda to take a ball ASAP as gegenpressing style. 

If your opinion is different its allright   

[summatsupeer]

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Next thing I noticed in process of testing - I have AP, but MEZ is my 'shadow playmaker'. It means that MEZ is transit for many moments in own half, middle and late zones.

My MEZ there is #17 Sissoko. This is typical moment in general, in this kind of situations are 2 trends. 1) MEZ is unmarked and 2) He exploits empty space lovely. I guess its because AF, AP, IF and WB(a) draw away opposite players.

I'd argue many other CM roles would of done the same with the amount of space in that area of the pitch.  Probably wouldn't of made the off the ball run ahead of the AP before dropping back to collect the ball but would of been in that area.

I'd argue that with the WB-At and and IF-At a role that doesn't make runs could find more space when, as you say, they draw away opponents players. Would also help cover when turnover the ball.

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Btw, why BWM is deeper? At first I feel 4231 is vulnerable without DM. There are BWM is cover, not a cleaner only (role is agressive but cautious mentality left an imprint for him)

Also I dont use hold position PI, he needs in attacks too. I analyzed Cambiasso in Inter, which played the same style - attack supporter+ teammates cover + balls tackling

Your formation is the players default positioning, so having them split between DM and CM will do this.  Even though both are Support duties and the game will label the individual mentality the same in this setup (i think), the BWM-Su is one of, if not the lowest mentality support duty player whilst the MEZ is one of the highest, hence emphasizing that split even more.

If the MEZ was instead a SV-Su for example, due to being in DM he would drop deeper next to Dier but would still push up when in possession.

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Sometimes I feel like we dont have a left flank at all 

I think this is due to BWM being a "safe" role due to its low mentality (for the duty) and low creative freedom combined with your FB-De on the same flank.

With the BWM i'd say you could afford to make the FB-De a FB-Su, with the low team mentality he will still be quite safe but will help further up the field.

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

I see 2 cases why I lose some points. 1) I believe too much for young Parrott. He is perspective young player, but I used him in important situations (like we won 2-1 MU and I changed Keane - Parrott on last 15 minutes) - my mistake. 2) Second - WB(a) is very important role and I dont have a backup (equal) for Aurier, which missed some games.
Also I didnt use wasting time TI and twice lost 2 points - vs Sheffield and vs Man City. Just wanted to check how my team worked in extreme situation when opposite team using extra-attacking mentality.

I'd also suggest towards the end of games not committing your DR forward into attacks as opponents often go 433 / 424 so your leaving there wide forward a ton of space.

Keeping him attacking might give a ton of space but also becomes a bit of a shoot out end to end game which I don't think fits this style.

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Any resume? Not sure  Probably ME needs more help for defensive styles, probably not.  I just happy to play few games without a big shame in a close style and want share my fun for community members  

I think there's a bit of confusion about what constitutes a "style".  A low team mentality doesn't mean its defensive and a high team mentality doesn't mean its attacking. 

With how attacking your right side is plus using a split block press, I really wouldn't describe it as defensive.  It is nice to see a lower mentality being used effectively though!

3 hours ago, Novem9 said:

Thank you for your attention, sorry for my English and feel free to write any tipes about my tactic or cautious style in general. Lets destroy gegenpess domination!  

Perfectly understandable english! Probably better than mine so don't apologize!

[crusadertsar]

12 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

for sure   thank you for feedback at first.
This is second edition of tactic, first was more passive but it didnt work and I tried to fix issues.

I guess important difference is that my pressure in this tactic is troublemaking for opposite attacks, no agenda to take a ball ASAP as gegenpressing style. 

If your opinion is different its allright   

But if your first tactic was kinda passive and you reverted to using hard pressing roles, doesn't that kinda break the experiment? In my opinion it just shows that a purely defensive approach doesn't really work. Your tactic is basically high pressing attack (due to roles and instructions) in everything but its team shape. It's a good example of how you can play attacking with a conservative shape however. So congrats on succeeding with that.

Edited September 8, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Novem9]

2 минуты назад, crusadertsar сказал:

But if your first tactic was kinda passive and you reverted to using hard pressing roles, doesn't that kinda break the experiment? In my opinion it just shows that a purely defensive approach doesn't really work. 

Maybe in next time I will test more passive  For now I'm already satisfied this version. For me this is a progress, because my knowledge/understanding of ME is pretty limited

[Enzo_Francescoli]

4 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Maybe in next time I will test more passive  For now I'm already satisfied this version. For me this is a progress, because my knowledge/understanding of ME is pretty limited

No, no, just be a man and don't press via PI's either, and, well.. count the losses I guess.. 

In all seriousness, I've put lots of hours into developing a playing style you just described in FM20. A disciplined approach which prioritizes blocking passing lanes instead of aggressive pressing, disrupting the opponent's build-up. forcing mistakes and then taking away the ball when the time comes. All without using higher mentalities or a split block. It can be done, but it's very hard indeed and, admittedly, I'm not good enough at this game to make it work consistently. I have to adjust on a game-by-game basis, study the opponent, use OI's and, usually, watch the first 30 minutes of full. Basically, it's like real life football and that takes a hell of a lot of time. I still prefer it to gegenpressing and IR'ing my way to success though.

[Novem9]

7 минут назад, Enzo_Francescoli сказал:

No, no, just be a man and don't press via PI's either, and, well.. count the losses I guess.. 

 

 I imagine thread based on your advice.

My little experiment - Okay, this is my tactic, I lose first 10 games and fired. The End!

(basically scenario of one from many saves )

Edited September 8, 2020 by Novem9

[afailed10]

Excellent effort @Novem9 one of the best I've read here lately!

One thing though, Mourinho usually uses a more offensive system against teams you're supposed beat. Perhaps not so much in his later stints in England but in Porto he'd use his typical 433 with a DM, wingers and offensive full backs. At Inter he'd use a more defensive cast for tough UCL games but the league was a bit different.

Anyway I think you're doing very well although it looks like it's too conservative for a team like Porto in the Portuguese league so you'd have to make some adjustments.

[zyfon5]

On 09/09/2020 at 03:14, Novem9 said:

 I imagine thread based on your advice.

My little experiment - Okay, this is my tactic, I lose first 10 games and fired. The End!

(basically scenario of one from many saves )

I think that you can try that for a few games against big teams. One of the problems with playing too passive is eventually your defense will crumble to the pressure so it is not sustainable. However I can see it being successful against teams much better than you on the odd occasion. Maybe you can try in the champions league and see if you can overachieve with a passive approach?

[SixPointer]

Great effort! I also fancy coming up with a Mourinho like system. As I feel it’s probably the hardest style to make successful in game. So far I’ve done a sort of klopp and Banik Ostrava and now Gian Piero Gasperini at Argentinos juniors. So maybe fm21 will bring a Mourinho style. What did you find being the biggest challenge? 

[Novem9]

1 час назад, SixPointer сказал:

What did you find being the biggest challenge? 

I cant select something special tbh   I checked few games of Inter 2010 which found in free access. It was very helpful  

Patient is challenge for me