FM20 Lower League Special - 3322 - Stockport County Predicted 24th - Result = 1st

[Mr U Rosler]

I've found the 4231 weak in recent years, unable to get a tune out of any AMC role. 

Although not relevant to my own save with Stockport, I do find the Man City issues intriguing, I'll keep plugging away at that I think, got a few ideas. 

[skywalkerday]

Thanks! Gonna try this on my 2nd Barrow season, got to the playoffs last year but bowed out in the first round using my own tactics. 

To say we started the second year poorly is an understatement, currently sat in 13th with 6W 1D 7L so heres hoping we can turn the season around!

[jinxwhitsmith]

Working a treat with my Rochdale team

[xplode7]

54 minutes ago, jinxwhitsmith said:

Working a treat with my Rochdale team

With tweak for 20.2 or without?

[jinxwhitsmith]

with play through the middle on 20.2

[skywalkerday]

Barrow season 2 Vanarama National

 

won 3, drew 2, lost 0 so far since changing to this tactic, playing some exciting football and scoring a lot of goals! Also back in the playoffs already, cant wait for the familiarity to increase, showing real potential! 

 

Nice one

[Mr U Rosler]

Got promoted out of National League under the the earlier patch.

After a slow start, now looking good in League 2, hopefully good for a playoff spot at worst, all League 2 games under patch 20.2.0

I've just added 'play through the middle' after the ME update.

url for an image

 

[Rummbler]

Hi Uwe, 

First of all, I've been a fan of your tactics for a while now and I'm happy to see you return!

I've been trying your tactic with Arsenal in season 2021-2022 after two odd seasons with AC Milan (and a differend tactic). 

I took over after their draw at home against Huddersfield and implemented the play through middle after the update since Norwich-away. 

The results speak for themselves and got me to the top of the league at the minute. Off course everything can still collapse but so far it looks promising! 

Also, I'm doing it with the squad they've left me, I couldn't buy new players yet.

[Niall76]

On 05/12/2019 at 19:52, rmills2000 said:

Working wonders for me in Swedish 4th Tier!

7th place when I joined in match week 14, finished 1st after a 12 game unbeaten run in the league  

 

 

Hi! Do you struggle to find a Roaming Play Maker. I'm playing in L2 in Scotland with Cove Rangers and it's impossible to find one - is there any workaround, anyone?

Edited December 7, 2019 by Niall76

[Mr U Rosler]

40 minutes ago, Niall76 said:

Hi! Do you struggle to find a Roaming Play Maker. I'm playing in L2 in Scotland with Cove Rangers and it's impossible to find one - is there any workaround, anyone?

Don't stress about this, the requirements for each role scales with the level you play at. So any DM with half decent passing (10+) could do a job there for you at the moment. 

Once you move higher you can focus on bringing in better players. 

[Niall76]

4 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Don't stress about this, the requirements for each role scales with the level you play at. So any DM with half decent passing (10+) could do a job there for you at the moment. 

Once you move higher you can focus on bringing in better players. 

Brilliant thanks mate! Still leave it as RPM?

[Mr U Rosler]

8 minutes ago, Niall76 said:

Brilliant thanks mate! Still leave it as RPM?

Yes, the player roles are a set of behaviours and instructions for your player to follow. The closer to a RPM you can get the better, but in lower leagues you're not going to get a perfect player, in the same way there aren't really any Complete Forwards at that level but that 'role' could still be valid. (in different tactic) 

[whizzkid]

MR Rosler has the tactic been updated in the OP or do we manually need to add "play through the middle"?

[Mr U Rosler]

2 minutes ago, whizzkid said:

MR Rosler has the tactic been updated in the OP or do we manually need to add "play through the middle"?

Hi whizz kid, 

Need to manually add it, just seeing if anymore tweaks help before I update it 

[Bcfclee27]

Is pretty average for me to be honest.

Playing with Bath City in National League.

Am currently 7th half way through the season.

Not a bad tactic but definitely not pulling up any trees at the moment.

Are the stats vital for determination & decisions ?

I find it hard to attract players to my club due to being semi pro.

In the Vanarama national league on the key stats you put for each position would you say they need to be at least 10 ?

Also is it important just to have these stats ie if I sign a player that my ass manager says is like a D signing and is only like a 2 star but has the stats required - is that more important ?

[Mr U Rosler]

1 hour ago, Bcfclee27 said:

Is pretty average for me to be honest.

Playing with Bath City in National League.

Am currently 7th half way through the season.

Not a bad tactic but definitely not pulling up any trees at the moment.

Are the stats vital for determination & decisions ?

I find it hard to attract players to my club due to being semi pro.

In the Vanarama national league on the key stats you put for each position would you say they need to be at least 10 ?

Also is it important just to have these stats ie if I sign a player that my ass manager says is like a D signing and is only like a 2 star but has the stats required - is that more important ?

Not sure what Bath's media prediction is but presuming you've likely been promoted fairly recently 7th doesn't seem too bad. 

Finding and attracting players will be tricky, I assign my scouts to under 18's and under 23's to see who they unearth. Keep an eye out for those out of contract who offer themselves and claim they can step straight into the first team, if any look promising you can offer them a 1 week trial after which you'll have full visibility on their attributes. Do this sparingly as too many seems to upset the 1st team.

Decisions and determination is my medium, long term goal, in the short term you can't really be that picky. 

10 is a good benchmark for technical attributes, you can get higher in physical/mental. 

Star rating depends on your ass man's scouting ability, it probably not very good. 

You can directly compare a prospects attributes to the current 1st team player and draw you're own conclusions. I never sign anyone unless they are better, or very likely will be better than my current player. 

Beyond that, the games tougher this year and you need to rotate your squad to keep things fresh and players happy, ensure morale is as high as possible etc. 

And make sure you're using the 'play through middle tweak' for latest patch. 

[Guest]

@Mr U Rosler Hey chap one of the guys at FM Base posted the tactic there.

If you ever go there just drop me a message and I can make you the owner of that thread/post potentially or alternatively feel free to repost it and I'll remove the duplicate. Defo a solid tactic though 352 seems good right now!

[Mr U Rosler]

33 minutes ago, Danwolf said:

@Mr U Rosler Hey chap one of the guys at FM Base posted the tactic there.

If you ever go there just drop me a message and I can make you the owner of that thread/post potentially or alternatively feel free to repost it and I'll remove the duplicate. Defo a solid tactic though 352 seems good right now!

Thanks Danwolf

[Chadbwfc91]

Big ask this but seen as tho we are both Mancs (i live in Salford now tho) can i ask for screenshots of you team instructions and the basics of some player instructions i am travelling Asia and plan to buy the Switch Touch version tomorrow and have no access to a laptop to download but i want to go with this tactic so if you could help that would be great ! 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Chadbwfc91

[Mr U Rosler]

8 hours ago, Chadbwfc91 said:

Big ask this but seen as tho we are both Mancs (i live in Salford now tho) can i ask for screenshots of you team instructions and the basics of some player instructions i am travelling Asia and plan to buy the Switch Touch version tomorrow and have no access to a laptop to download but i want to go with this tactic so if you could help that would be great ! 

Hi Chad,

Here you go;

 

Team Instructions 

In Possession - Pass into space, play out of defence, low crosses, run at defence, focus play through middle

In Transition - Throw it long, distribute to fullbacks, counter, counter press

Out of possession - Much higher defensive line, Much higher line of engagement, Extremely Urgent, Prevent short GK distribution, Get stuck in, use offside trap

 

Player Instructions (from memory)

Just the defaults for the player roles with the following additions.

Centre backs - pass it shorter

All Players - Shoot less often 

 

[Rummbler]

Well, had a good run in the first season with Arsenal. Fought with ManU for the title and won the league with one point difference! 

On the other side, this second season things are going more sluggish and since yesterday I can't seem to score anymore...

[Omark]

In charge at Linkoping in the Swedish 2nd division (4th tier) and was given 1000-1 odds to win promotion. So far after 16 games played I am 3rd. Obviously this tactic works well as an underdog tactic but my question is 'How?' When you consider that 6 roles are attacking, the mentality is also attacking plus the role of RPM is not an easy one to fill in the lower leagues - the success of this tactic (congrats to Mr U Rosler for creating it) flies in the face of logic. Now i don't expect FM to be entirely logical but when you watch youtube vids and read the forums this type of tactic for an underdog team would be considered suicidal. So I guess the question to the more tactically savvy FMer's is why does this work?

[xplode7]

10 hours ago, Rummbler said:

Well, had a good run in the first season with Arsenal. Fought with ManU for the title and won the league with one point difference! 

On the other side, this second season things are going more sluggish and since yesterday I can't seem to score anymore...

Did u use pass thru middle tweak or no?

Just finished season in LLM, works very good... but curious how is gonna be second season in higher division

Edited December 10, 2019 by xplode7

[Mr U Rosler]

8 hours ago, Omark said:

In charge at Linkoping in the Swedish 2nd division (4th tier) and was given 1000-1 odds to win promotion. So far after 16 games played I am 3rd. Obviously this tactic works well as an underdog tactic but my question is 'How?' When you consider that 6 roles are attacking, the mentality is also attacking plus the role of RPM is not an easy one to fill in the lower leagues - the success of this tactic (congrats to Mr U Rosler for creating it) flies in the face of logic. Now i don't expect FM to be entirely logical but when you watch youtube vids and read the forums this type of tactic for an underdog team would be considered suicidal. So I guess the question to the more tactically savvy FMer's is why does this work?

Hi Omark,

In an ideal world i would put out a low block, defensive, counter attacking tactic for underdogs, and this is where i look first each year. However, unfortunately this approach has not been rewarded in recent years or at least its beyond my skills to get it to work.

The ME seems to reward attacking, high tempo, high pressing, high defensive line style of tactics for teams of all reputation.

You could argue that teams coming out of the Championship that been more expansive in their approach (Wolves, Sheff Utd) have done better than those who fit the more traditional model of sitting in and countering although none of these more expansive teams would be as attack minded as most of the tactics on here.

You could also argue the formation here, which the teams retreat into when out of possession, is relatively secure with 3 centre backs AND a sitting midfielder. It is hard to play through with its main vulnerability being to balls over the top which can be mitigated somewhat by quick defenders and a decent keeper.    

But really, this is not a question for the tactic creators, but one for the developers. 

Whilst the game is bit harder this year, i think employing a high/very defensive line should trigger a reaction in AI opponents which see's them alter their approach to crucify you for doing this, especially as a low reputation team.     

Edited December 10, 2019 by Mr U Rosler

[Mr U Rosler]

2 hours ago, xplode7 said:

Did u use pass thru middle tweak or no?

Just finished season in LLM, works very good... but curious how is gonna be second season in higher division

By being promoted, you will likely be even more of an underdog next year which plays straight into the hands of this tactic. So it should work well relative to your media prediction (likely to come last).

The Arsenal issue is the opposite one, having just won the League they will have an even higher reputation which means teams will sit in and need to be broken down. This was not what the tactic was designed to do, however with good players and management of course it can still get the job done with top teams.    

[xplode7]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

By being promoted, you will likely be even more of an underdog next year which plays straight into the hands of this tactic. So it should work well relative to your media prediction (likely to come last).

The Arsenal issue is the opposite one, having just won the League they will have an even higher reputation which means teams will sit in and need to be broken down. This was not what the tactic was designed to do, however with good players and management of course it can still get the job done with top teams.    

I think team talks are very important and you have right that FM is very hard this year, small movements lead to big goals or mistakes

[Omark]

Hi Mr U Rosler,

You are correct that this is an issue for the game developers - kudos to you for creating this tactic. Did you come upon this by trial and error, or was this a happy accident? Did you see an ME weakness and seek to exploit it or is it just a case of the games AI unable to deal with a certain way of playing? Sorry if this is too many questions.

[Mr U Rosler]

34 minutes ago, Omark said:

Hi Mr U Rosler,

You are correct that this is an issue for the game developers - kudos to you for creating this tactic. Did you come upon this by trial and error, or was this a happy accident? Did you see an ME weakness and seek to exploit it or is it just a case of the games AI unable to deal with a certain way of playing? Sorry if this is too many questions.

 

 

Hi Omark,

Happy to answer any questions.

I normally have a tactics thread most years, recently they are built with my own save in mind which is a move though the leagues with Stockport County hence the underdog/lower league flavor of this thread.

In terms of arriving at a tactic, it’s a lot of trial and error with a bit of instinct developed over the years as to what is likely to work. I normally establish a few fundamentals first, which mentality looks best, I have a few preferred formations so I’ll establish which one of those looks favourable, then trying different player roles and duties to establish which of these look the best fit for the formation.

Then it’s a case of experimenting with Team Instructions, dropping them on and off and seeing how this impacts results. This is done by setting the tactic and then holidaying for a season which takes about an hour on my laptop. As you progress from test to test, including some team instructions, ruling out others, you eventually end up with an outlier, a result quite different from the rest. This year it was coming 1^st in the league with Stockport rather than 5^th or 6^th which was a typical result during my testing. As holidaying isn’t perfect, I’ll re-run the outlier tactic a few times to make sure it wasn’t a freak result. If its repeatable then you’re in business and you have your tactic.

You could go next level and repeat this with all the player instructions, but I don’t have time for that and once I can repeatedly win the league with the team predicted to finish bottom I’m done. That’s all the performance I need and I’d normally release the tactic at this point.

I’ll then play around with set pieces during my own save and release an update if and when I come across something useful.

That aside, it will need re-testing when the match engine updates and often a tweaked version of the tactic will need to be put out.

This year it took about 35 test runs to arrive here (or 35 hours), although once its up and running you can just leave it alone and get on with stuff. Other years I’ve nailed it on my 2^nd attempt, it’s getting harder!

Hope this helps!

         

Edited December 10, 2019 by Mr U Rosler

[Rummbler]

8 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

The Arsenal issue is the opposite one, having just won the League they will have an even higher reputation which means teams will sit in and need to be broken down. This was not what the tactic was designed to do, however with good players and management of course it can still get the job done with top teams.    

True words mate. I did not change a whole lot player-wise, I only bought Timo Werner from Leipzig. And I can't get my head 'round tweaking the tactic so that it will suit me as a high rep team. I'll give it another go with a lower league team, because I do like the tactic very much. 

[Omark]

5 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

 

 

Hi Omark,

Happy to answer any questions.

I normally have a tactics thread most years, recently they are built with my own save in mind which is a move though the leagues with Stockport County hence the underdog/lower league flavor of this thread.

In terms of arriving at a tactic, it’s a lot of trial and error with a bit of instinct developed over the years as to what is likely to work. I normally establish a few fundamentals first, which mentality looks best, I have a few preferred formations so I’ll establish which one of those looks favourable, then trying different player roles and duties to establish which of these look the best fit for the formation.

Then it’s a case of experimenting with Team Instructions, dropping them on and off and seeing how this impacts results. This is done by setting the tactic and then holidaying for a season which takes about an hour on my laptop. As you progress from test to test, including some team instructions, ruling out others, you eventually end up with an outlier, a result quite different from the rest. This year it was coming 1^st in the league with Stockport rather than 5^th or 6^th which was a typical result during my testing. As holidaying isn’t perfect, I’ll re-run the outlier tactic a few times to make sure it wasn’t a freak result. If its repeatable then you’re in business and you have your tactic.

You could go next level and repeat this with all the player instructions, but I don’t have time for that and once I can repeatedly win the league with the team predicted to finish bottom I’m done. That’s all the performance I need and I’d normally release the tactic at this point.

I’ll then play around with set pieces during my own save and release an update if and when I come across something useful.

That aside, it will need re-testing when the match engine updates and often a tweaked version of the tactic will need to be put out.

This year it took about 35 test runs to arrive here (or 35 hours), although once its up and running you can just leave it alone and get on with stuff. Other years I’ve nailed it on my 2^nd attempt, it’s getting harder!

Hope this helps!

         

Thanks for the response. It appears that your methodology is the best way of creating a tactic as a more football-centric approach, whilst logical, isn't the most effective way to tactics creation. I have often wondered how people like Knapp and others create so many tactics that work and I guess they adopt the same approach. 

[andre62]

Any change for away games or against big teams?

[jinxwhitsmith]

Finished 1st season with Rochdale and won the league with a couple of games to go with what is a very small and very average squad. 

 

[rmills2000]

Worked in Ireland 2nd Tier for me as well;

[danielellison84]

I love how solid this tactic is, I just struggle to score compared the many many shots I have. 

[Vokes]

@Mr U Rosler , so gave the tactic a spin...

 

Team: Bolton

Media Prediction: dead last (starting on -12 points)

Transfers In: none

 

 

Secured 1st spot on the final day with a win against 2nd place Oxford:

 

 

Goals were well spread out among the squad. However not a lot of standout performers in the average rating department.

Yellow cards and suspensions at the business end of the season also caused problems. 

 

I struggled with filling the demanding CWB spots, as Bolton are weak in this regards, and are basically broke. So made do with CB/Winger youth players playing backup in those positions.

I think the CWB and RPM positions are the key spots in the team, get those right and you're flying. You definitely need 2 options in each of the CWB positions to cope with the physical demands.

 

 

 

[Mr U Rosler]

37 minutes ago, Vokes said:

@Mr U Rosler , so gave the tactic a spin...

 

Team: Bolton

Media Prediction: dead last (starting on -12 points)

Transfers In: none

 

 

Secured 1st spot on the final day with a win against 2nd place Oxford:

 

 

Goals were well spread out among the squad. However not a lot of standout performers in the average rating department.

Yellow cards and suspensions at the business end of the season also caused problems. 

 

I struggled with filling the demanding CWB spots, as Bolton are weak in this regards, and are basically broke. So made do with CB/Winger youth players playing backup in those positions.

I think the CWB and RPM positions are the key spots in the team, get those right and you're flying. You definitely need 2 options in each of the CWB positions to cope with the physical demands.

 

 

 

Interesting, excellent results but i've been getting 20 goals a season out of both my Strikers, did you add the 'focus play through the middle tweak'?

My Stockport team should be in League 1 next season, looking forward to the challenge.    

 

[Vokes]

Hi, no. I'm using the d/l in the first post.

So i should add 'Play Through the Middle'. Any others? I see ' Work Ball Into Box is mentioned' which is enabled on the tactic d/l.

[Mr U Rosler]

I suggested adding 'play through the middle' after the last patch, more goals. 

No other changes 

[offski]

Tactic getting off to a great start with my newly promoted Exeter team, thanks Rosler. Is anyone else finding an insane amount of cards though? Seem to be getting a fine for excessive yellows and a player sent off in every game so far

[vins1977]

hi mr u rosler i want to thanks you for your tactics i am playing with varese with a database from italy i fouind on, steam workshop they are 20 leagues 7cups in all with 5 for the 20th league

iwas predict 23 and for now i'm first (i don't have finish for now) but i win all my match except one andthe last two matches i played it with another tactic from another(i'll explain later why)

i win all my friendlies with good score but they are just friendlies that means nothing but my first championship match i won 9-1 i was not waiting that because in the test i watch about tactics i choose your tactics because the defense was seeming very good with a not so bad attack and i have read your part of tactics forum i like what i've see a tactic for lower league they are not that much so i have decide to try and i have not regret it very good defence with a good offense i think better than what the test where saying

i have play 3 matchs of championship and 2 cup matches with your tactic and i won all but won with good score the least was 2-0 but to give you an idea of my team power against the other of my league my best player have 54 ca and the second team in classment their best olayer have more than 70ca you see there a big difference

the match i loose it was a cup match against a team from serie b (2nd league) and their best player was 117 ca and i lost 3-2 and it's because i listen to my assistant manager who tell to play defensive and if i have let offensive maybe i have win maybe not by much but who knows

the only problem i have is i don't have player to fit the role of the winger or i don't know how you call it

i know i can retrain but i have so many player to retrain i'm afraid that impact their growth too much and i know i can recruit players to fit the role but i don't want because i don't know why but i like the team the way it is maybe because i feel the players have a lot potential and i feel the need to bring them the farther possible

i have recruit nobody by myself but i let my head of youth recruit player from under 18 he have recruit six some play in my team but the max pa of the players is 40 and theire ca go from 26 to 36

so i have found a tactic from another who were more adapt to my players and she works as good as yours but i only play 2 matchs with it(2 wins 3-0 4-0)my players feel better in the role and i don't have to retrain most of my player

so i'm sorry to say that i won't use your tactic anymore despite having very good results and i think it's a great tactic from the level of the best knap tactics

i was seeing only knap tactics before but now i know you so i keep an eye on you and if you make tactics for lower league again i might use your tactics

i had very much fun with your tactics for the time i used it and i don't forget it

if you want more informations about my team just ask i try to respond the fastest possible

[rmills2000]

2nd Season with Longford, first season in the Irish top flight. Squeaky bum time on the last day but came good when it mattered

 

[Mr U Rosler]

15 minutes ago, rmills2000 said:

2nd Season with Longford, first season in the Irish top flight. Squeaky bum time on the last day but came good when it mattered

 

Good job. Proper 2 horse race that!

[Mr U Rosler]

Doing a bit more testing this weekend to make sure i'm not missing any tricks. 

Will also get to the bottom of using 'focus play through the middle vs leaving this off'

Also got a corner routine that's a bit more straight forward but is yielding a few goals.

One thing i've noticed is 'form' and 'morale' are even more important than ever this year, i've had a  - win 10, lose 9, win 6 - sequence in my main save finding it hard to break a poor run of form. The run started by losing 2 games back to back against higher level teams in the cup which for some reason derailed my league form?

Testing a tactic in holiday mode with Leicester i got sacked in October with 1 point in 10 games, re-ran the exact same test and finished 3rd?  It's a bit nuts this year.   

But will update the thread this weekend and include some training schedules i've been using to good effect.

[adam_thomas]

Just to give my feedback, didnt work for me with Leyton Orient. Predicted 24th. After about 12 games I was nicely in 9th/10th. Then went on a shocking run and lost 7 in a row, dropping down to 17th (still above the predicted 24th!) but my board had had enough and I was out of a job.

[TheDentalist]

21 hours ago, adam_thomas said:

Just to give my feedback, didnt work for me with Leyton Orient. Predicted 24th. After about 12 games I was nicely in 9th/10th. Then went on a shocking run and lost 7 in a row, dropping down to 17th (still above the predicted 24th!) but my board had had enough and I was out of a job.

Considering the success others and myself are having with this tactic I suspect there may be other attributing factors to your results. Man management, team talks, training etc. I'm predicted to finish 23rd in League 2 (Macclesfield) and currently 10 points clear of second with less than half a season gone. Also in the League Cup QF. 

[adam_thomas]

I suspect its more just the squad, players didnt really fit the tactic and therefore didnt get much out of it. Finder Roslers 442 from FM19 still does a decent job for me.

[Marky3seat]

Hi 

Playing as Hull in championship, currently 2nd.

Finding it really hard to get goals from my strikers though. Have play through the middle on. 

Any advice?

[Mr U Rosler]

1 hour ago, Marky3seat said:

Hi 

Playing as Hull in championship, currently 2nd.

Finding it really hard to get goals from my strikers though. Have play through the middle on. 

Any advice?

Yes, put play through middle on. 

 

 

[jinxwhitsmith]

On 14/12/2019 at 12:18, Mr U Rosler said:

Doing a bit more testing this weekend to make sure i'm not missing any tricks. 

Will also get to the bottom of using 'focus play through the middle vs leaving this off'

Also got a corner routine that's a bit more straight forward but is yielding a few goals.

One thing i've noticed is 'form' and 'morale' are even more important than ever this year, i've had a  - win 10, lose 9, win 6 - sequence in my main save finding it hard to break a poor run of form. The run started by losing 2 games back to back against higher level teams in the cup which for some reason derailed my league form?

Testing a tactic in holiday mode with Leicester i got sacked in October with 1 point in 10 games, re-ran the exact same test and finished 3rd?  It's a bit nuts this year.   

But will update the thread this weekend and include some training schedules i've been using to good effect.

Any update on this Rosler?

[Mr U Rosler]

5 hours ago, jinxwhitsmith said:

Any update on this Rosler?

Hi,

Not really, i cant improve it although adding 'play through the middle' is definitely the way to go.

To be honest, its like flogging a dead horse on this match engine, i was fortunate to get something as steady as this.

I'll update the original tactic later but its the same as the existing one with the above tweak and a tidier corner routine.

i'll also put up the training schedules i'm using.