Why my strikers can't finish a single chance?

[Judozsombi]

In one of my saves, it looks like it doesn't matter how good my strikers finshing composure decisions and anticipation are, they are constantly missing golden oppurtunities, and it is really annoying now. I tried, but couldn't find a long-term solution... Any ideas or suggestions are really amazing for me!

[jens_dewit]

First of all, I'm a rook as well, so don't take my word for gospel. A lot of people will also refrain from posting until you give a little more details on your tactic, your players,... Just posting 'my striker doesn't score'... It can be one of a million possibilities.

What I do know from my own experience, is that if your striker is getting decent opportunities (and even if he isn't), it's always useful to check if he's having enough space. If you play with a lot of players in the final third, maybe the opponent is just too crowded around him. You can try any number of things: lowering your defensive line if it's very high, playing on a lower mentality, restructuring your tactic so other players are drawing out defenders and thus creating space... But we'd need more info to say anything for sure.

[Experienced Defender]

Without a screenshot of your tactic, it's virtually impossible to tell you what could be the reason(s) your striker is failing to finish chances. It's usually - if not always - due to a wrong tactical setup as a whole, not the striker (or anyone else) as an individual player/role.

[mrgoal100]

hace 5 horas, Experienced Defender dijo:

Without a screenshot of your tactic, it's virtually impossible to tell you what could be the reason(s) your striker is failing to finish chances. It's usually - if not always - due to a wrong tactical setup as a whole, not the striker (or anyone else) as an individual player/role.

It's not going to be easy to explain how a tactical setup affects strikers finishing chances, but I'm all ears.

[Experienced Defender]

56 minutes ago, mrgoal100 said:

It's not going to be easy to explain how a tactical setup affects strikers finishing chances, but I'm all ears.

The tactical setup - roles, duties, mentality, instructions - affects everything when it comes the performance, both of the team and each single player. You can have the best striker in the world, but if the tactic as a whole is unsound, he will in most cases underperform - not because he himself is bad, but because football is a team sport. Likewise, you may have the best defenders on the planet, but if they are left to deal with opposition attacks on their own - you are going to concede loads of goals.

[Rashidi]

4 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

It's not going to be easy to explain how a tactical setup affects strikers finishing chances, but I'm all ears.

That is precisely the reason why people are struggling, they assume that any tactical setup can lead their strikers to score goals when in reality there is more to this than meets the eye.

Why are some sides like City in real life banging in all the goals' and a team like LFC can still struggle to break down some defensive sides. Its actually all about how certain roles and duties have been set up to play in real life.

Let's just take a very simple example of FM. say you were playing a 4231. You have an AF in front with one IF(S) and another W(A). IN midfield an orthodox CM(D) and maybe a DLP(S) and in the backline the very popular but misguided, WB-CD-CD-WB. Here then say someone sets it up to be positive, with a much higher LOE/DL. Lets say too that he plays with counter pressing and counter. 

These roles alone will only work under certain circumstances, in fact they are so one dimensional that against teams that are defensive this system will suffer. When played against any 4141 it will struggle to stamp its mark. The AF by virtue of his role will be off on his own when the attacks begin. When he gets up the pitch with the ball his only real support will be the winger. Either one of these players may struggle if they take on defenders on their own which will happen because of the role and duty. Now say some person decides that perhaps they can fix this with a CFI(A) now they just made it worse. The CF roams and on an attack duty will create isolation in attack.

A well thought out formation will consider how they control space in certain areas to create chances for others. If your striker is not finishing his chances, the issue isn't the striker its almost always going to be how the others have been set up to play around him. Thats assuming your striker is a decent one, at least of Divock Origi standards. 

[jere_d]

@Rashidi you've missed out the cam in your explanation. The problem people have are the roles aren't comprehensible. 

For example I started a save last year with a back 5 with 1 guy in Liberia role, the description told me he'd be joining the attack pushing out of the defense and taking long shots. I didn't see any player in that position doing this for 2 seasons.

 

[Rashidi]

well he should be in the opposition half stringing passes around like a playmaker. If he didn't do that for you, then you chose the wrong roles in front of him. I made a tactic where I stuck a certain playmaker in the libero role and he was splitting teams with through balls.

[Impi]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb Rashidi:

That is precisely the reason why people are struggling, they assume that any tactical setup can lead their strikers to score goals when in reality there is more to this than meets the eye.

Why are some sides like City in real life banging in all the goals' and a team like LFC can still struggle to break down some defensive sides. Its actually all about how certain roles and duties have been set up to play in real life.

Let's just take a very simple example of FM. say you were playing a 4231. You have an AF in front with one IF(S) and another W(A). IN midfield an orthodox CM(D) and maybe a DLP(S) and in the backline the very popular but misguided, WB-CD-CD-WB. Here then say someone sets it up to be positive, with a much higher LOE/DL. Lets say too that he plays with counter pressing and counter. 

These roles alone will only work under certain circumstances, in fact they are so one dimensional that against teams that are defensive this system will suffer. When played against any 4141 it will struggle to stamp its mark. The AF by virtue of his role will be off on his own when the attacks begin. When he gets up the pitch with the ball his only real support will be the winger. Either one of these players may struggle if they take on defenders on their own which will happen because of the role and duty. Now say some person decides that perhaps they can fix this with a CFI(A) now they just made it worse. The CF roams and on an attack duty will create isolation in attack.

A well thought out formation will consider how they control space in certain areas to create chances for others. If your striker is not finishing his chances, the issue isn't the striker its almost always going to be how the others have been set up to play around him. Thats assuming your striker is a decent one, at least of Divock Origi standards. 

Sorry, I don't want to hijack the thread, but how would you setup the roles in a 4231 if your are against defensive teams? Is there a video or a thread where you explain this?

[Rashidi]

Liverpool were playing a 4231 in the early parts of the Kop Diaries, and i did a 4231 guide, and i will probably do another one soon

 

[Impi]

Gerade eben schrieb Rashidi:

Liverpool were playing a 4231 in the early parts of the Kop Diaries, and i did a 4231 guide, and i will probably do another one soon

 

Thanks! I will look for it.

[summatsupeer]

There are other attributes that come into play, consistency, big match performance, pressure and morale can play a part in modifying players performance by affecting there mental and technique attributes. 

Footedness could also play a part in what options a player has, as does technique before considering what they choose to do.  First touch could cause a player to make the chance harder or allow a gk/defender to close down or recover.

Hence the tactic needs to be right but also the players used need to fit.

[Gee_Simpson]

Looks like I'm one of the misguided, lol. I have tried a 4231 with 2 WB's and 2 DC's. Tbh I'm useless at tactics, I can't spot anything wrong because I don't know what to look for, so I'm left to try and find a 'magic formula' that wins most games but have so far failed to do so. 

[mrgoal100]

hace 20 horas, Rashidi dijo:

That is precisely the reason why people are struggling, they assume that any tactical setup can lead their strikers to score goals when in reality there is more to this than meets the eye.

Why are some sides like City in real life banging in all the goals' and a team like LFC can still struggle to break down some defensive sides. Its actually all about how certain roles and duties have been set up to play in real life.

Let's just take a very simple example of FM. say you were playing a 4231. You have an AF in front with one IF(S) and another W(A). IN midfield an orthodox CM(D) and maybe a DLP(S) and in the backline the very popular but misguided, WB-CD-CD-WB. Here then say someone sets it up to be positive, with a much higher LOE/DL. Lets say too that he plays with counter pressing and counter. 

These roles alone will only work under certain circumstances, in fact they are so one dimensional that against teams that are defensive this system will suffer. When played against any 4141 it will struggle to stamp its mark. The AF by virtue of his role will be off on his own when the attacks begin. When he gets up the pitch with the ball his only real support will be the winger. Either one of these players may struggle if they take on defenders on their own which will happen because of the role and duty. Now say some person decides that perhaps they can fix this with a CFI(A) now they just made it worse. The CF roams and on an attack duty will create isolation in attack.

A well thought out formation will consider how they control space in certain areas to create chances for others. If your striker is not finishing his chances, the issue isn't the striker its almost always going to be how the others have been set up to play around him. Thats assuming your striker is a decent one, at least of Divock Origi standards. 

Agree but still.

A wrong tactical setup should affect chance creation not chance finishing.  There is no tactical reason why to miss a chance if it is effectively created. Ok, perhaps the kind of chance created, think about a player with low heading missing that type of chances. But we don't need to go to that microdetail… That's not the subject of this thread.

OP claims his strikers can't finish a single chance. That's what the ME shows, he is right but it's not what's happening. I suspect the problem is the number of chances being created and their quality.

From you post it seems you are stating that a bad tactical setup causes strikers missing chances and that's what i deny and I'm sure you agree. The player doesn't know how the ball got there: if he is alone against the gk it doesn't matter how the chance was created.

The problem here is the ME shows your strikers missing chances when:

- You are not creating enough chances. Any striker needs an certain amount of chances to score (nobody scores every chance). Say a random striker needs 4 chances to score. If you créate 8 chances you should expect him to score 2 goals. If you créate 2 chances it's perfectly plausible seeing him missing both.

- You are creating low quality chances, even when the ME doesn't show it visually. Most of chances look the same, it seems a problem between what the ME calculates and what the 3d (or 2d) recreates. It's missleading.

And finally, random chance. Strikers can have long goaless runs and you can't do much about it.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Looks like I'm one of the misguided, lol. I have tried a 4231 with 2 WB's and 2 DC's

4231 - like any other formation - has 11 positions. Why do you focus only on the back four? Btw, 2 WBs on which duty (or duties)?

[Rashidi]

3 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

A wrong tactical setup should affect chance creation not chance finishing.

I am talking about chance quality influencing chance finishing, and that the only way you can improve chance quality is by improving your tactical setup. Improve the total number of chances and you could improve your chance of finishing, provided your chance quality is maintained and that is a function of your tactical setup. 

3 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

You are creating low quality chances, even when the ME doesn't show it visually. Most of chances look the same, it seems a problem between what the ME calculates and what the 3d (or 2d) recreates. It's missleading.

The me does show it, however most people may not be watching the highlights closely enough. A chance coming from a cross is not of the same quality as a throughball, and a throughball received centrally is not as good a chance as a throughball received offset to a players natural foot. The game does show us that, some people may not be able to know that. The only way perhaps is for SI to go in and teach people what a good chance is, and even then i doubt 2 people will agree. Already the average couch potato thinks every keeper should save from a narrow angle and every header should end up in the back of the net.

[Gee_Simpson]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

4231 - like any other formation - has 11 positions. Why do you focus only on the back four? Btw, 2 WBs on which duty (or duties)?

It was in response to rashidi talking about the WB-DC-DC-WB being misguided.

[Rashidi]

7 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Looks like I'm one of the misguided, lol. I have tried a 4231 with 2 WB's and 2 DC's. Tbh I'm useless at tactics, I can't spot anything wrong because I don't know what to look for, so I'm left to try and find a 'magic formula' that wins most games but have so far failed to do so. 

You dont need a magic formula, ok when i did the movement into channels video i explained how playing with certain roles can open up spaces. Now when you choose a role think about how that role uses space. Wingbacks cna be very good roles, i use them too. No one says you can't use one in a 4231, just that when you use one, you need to understand what and how it will play.  

The thing here is then people.."cos so and so said I will now not use WB" which is funny, cos poeple like me may use a WB but i will protect that flank or i will make sure that i make the other flank less attacking. I may also use a Defend duty in midfield in front of the WB and i will play a support role in front of that DLP. So here understanding how these roles and duties use space can be more handy. A lot of people leap in go WB-CD-CD-WB and the stick in an attack duty in the final third on the same flank and then play with a high defensive line and a high line of engagement. That taken together is misguided. 

The defensive line and LOE serves to define your playable area on the pitch, those roles adjust how your team plays in those spaces

[sporadicsmiles]

15 hours ago, mrgoal100 said:

wrong tactical setup should affect chance creation not chance finishing.  There is no tactical reason why to miss a chance if it is effectively created.

Sure there is. One obvious example. You have a left footed striker, and the chances you create are on his right foot. That is a tactical problem that will see chance creation with the potential for poor finishing. Which would be fixed by flipping your tactic so chances were created for his strong foot. By no means am I saying this is always the case, particularly common, or the solution the problem you have. It is still an example of tactics affecting the finishing.

Pretty much nothing that happens in FM is entirely independent of tactics. Without examples of the chances that are being missed, or how they are created, or the players involved, etc. it is utterly impossible to help you. For example, I think that my CCC conversion rate is upwards of 60% in my current save, so I clearly do not have the same issues that you do. This strongly points to something we are doing differently, rather than something the game is doing differently. It is unlikely to be quality in players, since I do not have any world class strikers in my squad. It could be player form, which can make good strikers look crap. This would not carry across saves and to every single striker you ever use, though.

If you want help, we will need examples. There is no magic bullet we can just say "do this" without any prior knowledge. If you do not want to post examples, you will not find any answers.

[Warrenwwr]

My current lone striker is a powerful target man with an arsenal of great attributes except for a 10s for pace, accel.  and finishing. 

I like to think that the only reason he scores often is Bc of my tactics. My entire attack is based on making space for him to lumber forward and challenge the keeper for crosses or to play quicker players into goal scoring situations.

All I'm saying is if you have invested in a striker or two and commit to them, why not play to their strengths.

 

What if Bc of your squad your goals are actually supposed to come from elsewhere. FM19 has so many roles to allow even the biggest oafs of strikers to contribute.

[mrgoal100]

hace 6 horas, sporadicsmiles dijo:

Sure there is. One obvious example. You have a left footed striker, and the chances you create are on his right foot. That is a tactical problem that will see chance creation with the potential for poor finishing. Which would be fixed by flipping your tactic so chances were created for his strong foot. By no means am I saying this is always the case, particularly common, or the solution the problem you have. It is still an example of tactics affecting the finishing.

Pretty much nothing that happens in FM is entirely independent of tactics. Without examples of the chances that are being missed, or how they are created, or the players involved, etc. it is utterly impossible to help you. For example, I think that my CCC conversion rate is upwards of 60% in my current save, so I clearly do not have the same issues that you do. This strongly points to something we are doing differently, rather than something the game is doing differently. It is unlikely to be quality in players, since I do not have any world class strikers in my squad. It could be player form, which can make good strikers look crap. This would not carry across saves and to every single striker you ever use, though.

If you want help, we will need examples. There is no magic bullet we can just say "do this" without any prior knowledge. If you do not want to post examples, you will not find any answers.

 

hace 22 horas, mrgoal100 dijo:

A wrong tactical setup should affect chance creation not chance finishing.  There is no tactical reason why to miss a chance if it is effectively created. Ok, perhaps the kind of chance created, think about a player with low heading missing that type of chances. But we don't need to go to that microdetail… That's not the subject of this thread.

OP claims his strikers can't finish a single chance. That's what the ME shows, he is right but it's not what's happening. I suspect the problem is the number of chances being created and their quality.

Edit: That doesn't mean I don't have issues with my strikers, it's  just I totally lack the ability to read the ME and long time ago I waived this chance. All I say is based in elemental football principles, not ME observations.