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Eddie Boop

How does "more urgent" differ from higher line/engagement?

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@poobington 

Again my view, no rules, a counterpress team is likely to be a more top heavy and possibly a centralised formation; the block higher; and a team that presses.  If you played higher in more of a narrow 424 you could pull off an effective counterpress.

If its a more a traditional 442 with a low block, I would regroup personally.

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4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Guardiola's high press if I am not mistaken should have regroup instead of counterpress

I'm curious to know why you think so. Doesn't he want to regain possession of the ball as soon as they loose it. The 6 seconds rule? Or do you think that is taken care of by the LoE + DL + Urgent Press. Then comes the regrouping aspect?

Would both pressing systems include Tight Marking?

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44 minutes ago, poobington said:

Thought I might address my queries here regarding counter press versus regroup.

To date, I have had some success recreating an Atletico style low block press. Using a low def line, low LoE and a more urgent press I am seeing good defensive actions in my own half, with us conceding the wide areas and pressing aggressively once they enter our own half using the touchline as a 3rd man. I obviously have counter selected for transitions but when possession is lost I have so far been rocking counter press but have been considering regroup.

The exam question is what effect does the LoE have on the counter press instruction?

With a low LoE, if I lose possession in the opponents half will my team try to win it back, and if so for how long before they back off? Surely with a low LoE and counterpress, I get the benefit of an immediate press if I lose it in the opponents half but still have some of my players retreating back to only press if the opponents make it to my half.

 

Equally if I select regroup, if when retreating my player is in close proximity to an opponent as they counter, will they press them as I have a more urgent press selected?

 

I have to say so far the results have been pleasing but this final piece would be interesting to nail.

Do you mind sharing a screenshot of your tactic here? It sounds like something I'd like to recreate

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9 minutes ago, Eddie Boop said:

Do you mind sharing a screenshot of your tactic here? It sounds like something I'd like to recreate

Here you go. tried the regroup option and looks quite good. They retreat quicker and are ready to press deep in the half.

Next thing to address is the attacking pressing forward, isn't dropping back although this is a point both Clean and Westy have discussed. I am going to try another pressing forward on support to see what kind of threat he will provide. I know he will drop back but will he make the same sorts of runs behind the defence? The alternative might be to use an atttacking player in the AM strata.

442 atleti.PNG

Edited by poobington

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6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Guardiola's high press if I am not mistaken should have regroup instead of counterpress

Guardiola is the one manager who definitely uses counterpress as his teams almost always want to force the long ball.

I'd actually say Klopp doesn't really uses counterpress anymore as Liverpool have been letting teams play into midfield rather than win the ball back instantly. 

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22 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

My setup:

1286286446_sunderland442.thumb.PNG.7ea66bc3f4ca2cc631487a80c15436ea.PNG

Mentality positive - when we win the ball, should be looking for forward passing and runs, moving the ball a little quicker

In possession; pass into space - to use the attacking runs and make use of space created by our out of possession style. POD to allow us to get into shape, and players to start making forward runs. Play wide - stretch the opposition defence or give my wingers space. 

Transition : distribute to CB (in line with POD). Counter - bring the opponent out (with out of possession style) make most of the space with quick attack. Regroup - when we lose the ball, get back into a solid shape. 

Out of Possession: Low D Line, I just want my defence to be solid and safe, im not concerned about them being behind the play when we transition to attack, I don't expect them to be involved. Low LOE, in line with regroup I want us to defend deeper and encourage the opponent to leave space behind. Urgent press.... once they come to the halfway line... squash them and break quickly, don't allow the ball into the more technical players feet i.e. central playmakers. 

------

Roles… I still want my striker (poacher) to aggressively position himself, but by allowing the opponent to the halfway line, he will naturally come back and sit on the shoulder. TM on support to track back and defend, and try to play in the poacher and create space (by holding the ball and drawing defenders). Midfield 3 support duties to be involved in defence and then progress when we attack if the tempo allows for it. But primary focus is martialling the half way line for the press. Defence … could put FB on defend, but may be overkill with the deep line, so support should mostly keep them in defence, but offer an out ball on the occasion my wingers get held up. 

LOE working … can see they aren't exactly 'retreating' so rashidi spot on... they are perhaps too passive tho… but when the ball gets to half way (the loe) they do make deep movement to get involved with the press. Obviously, the TM on support to a higher extent. (struggling to add a couple of GIF files, will edit this post with them when it works)

giphy.gif

giphy.gif

In terms of the match stats, limit the opponent to 4 shots, their goal was a direct FK. But the bigger picture, was us winning the ball frequently as they moved into our half. 

1676568728_matchstats.thumb.PNG.a0b46793a00150306b7b75b72501b70e.PNG

Our avg pos... nice cluster off the ball... if I change poacher to pressing forward it would definitely squeeze the opponent CMs out of the game. 

1684923553_sunderlandavgposition.thumb.PNG.56a147104d4e5878e954f64ba086c8f0.PNG

 

Nice set up westy. In terms of reputation are you one of the bigger teams in the league? I am finding with my atelti style 442, which I play with dortmund, its a bit inconsitent at times.

Also how does your attacking winger press? I founf that if you look at their PIs, with the Extremely urgent TI their individual pressing is actually less urgent! It usually meant that they would just allow players to retreat even deeper into my half. With just a more urgent approach they went up a pressing level to standard.

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45 minutes ago, poobington said:

Nice set up westy. In terms of reputation are you one of the bigger teams in the league? I am finding with my atelti style 442, which I play with dortmund, its a bit inconsitent at times.

Also how does your attacking winger press? I founf that if you look at their PIs, with the Extremely urgent TI their individual pressing is actually less urgent! It usually meant that they would just allow players to retreat even deeper into my half. With just a more urgent approach they went up a pressing level to standard.

Im the best team... Sunderland. My right winger is duncan watmore, has decent work rate and teamwork, i needed someone with one foot forward at all time in the midfield. You can see, sort of, from my avg position without ball that they attack down that flank... So the bbm and bwm shift over. 

The formation isnt built around getting the best results or even best fit for sunderland. I just like playing this way... And i hope not to have big success too early... So promotion first season then ill be happy to just sit around the playoffs in championship for eternity (tho fm usually will see me go straight up again or get the sack... Very hard to just float around mid table) 

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I just had one of those “feel good” games. Up against it, I decide to play a game with a low press for 80mins, tire the other side out before introducing fresh fast legs to go down the flanks. Last 10 mins I go wide, more expressive and a high press and we get the winner with a minute left in regulation.

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What are people's thoughts on moving the LOE and the DL independently of each other?  Simply drawing the lines closer together or the opposite and widening them.

Are either intended to move unilaterally?  What would be the advantages and disadvantages of moving them to either squeeze or extend the block?

Edited by Robson 07

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14 minuti fa, Robson 07 ha scritto:

What are people's thoughts on moving the LOE and the DL independently of each other?  Simply drawing the lines closer together or the opposite and widening them.

Are either intended to move unilaterally?  What would be the advantages and disadvantages of moving them to either squeeze or extend the block?

Currently I'm using a standard DL and a lower LOE, and extremely urgent press, first to force my W A and AF A to come back a bit more and then to have space both for possession and/or for a counter-attack. For extremely urgent the reason is that with the DL and LOE settings I'm bringing opponents closer and the space between the midfield and the defence is reduced so I don't want let them too much time to think or to spot a ball over the top or something similarly dangerous.

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10 hours ago, sovy666 said:

Currently I'm using a standard DL and a lower LOE, and extremely urgent press, first to force my W A and AF A to come back a bit more and then to have space both for possession and/or for a counter-attack. For extremely urgent the reason is that with the DL and LOE settings I'm bringing opponents closer and the space between the midfield and the defence is reduced so I don't want let them too much time to think or to spot a ball over the top or something similarly dangerous.

Be careful with an extremely urgent press. You will notice that for some reason your AF and Winger A will actually press less. When you look into their PIs you will see that with an "extremely urgent" TI, they have an individual instruction to press "less urgent", where as if you have just an "urgent" TI, their individual pressing goes up to "Standard". 

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11 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

What are people's thoughts on moving the LOE and the DL independently of each other?  Simply drawing the lines closer together or the opposite and widening them.

Are either intended to move unilaterally?  What would be the advantages and disadvantages of moving them to either squeeze or extend the block?

I definitely think they should be considered in isolation. You can have a really high first press, but a deep line so you have time to regroup if they break through. Or my preference to completely block out the middle of the pitch... They can play around in defence, but their creative players wont have any time on the ball (obviously in current ME its not ideal because forcing the long ball isnt advisable) 

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11 hours ago, Robson 07 said:

What are people's thoughts on moving the LOE and the DL independently of each other?  Simply drawing the lines closer together or the opposite and widening them.

Are either intended to move unilaterally?  What would be the advantages and disadvantages of moving them to either squeeze or extend the block?

I use a LOE one click lower than my defensive line so my block's a little more compact.

I can't get my head around my why you'd expand your block but it must have it's uses  

Edited by Johnny Ace

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14 ore fa, poobington ha scritto:

Be careful with an extremely urgent press. You will notice that for some reason your AF and Winger A will actually press less. When you look into their PIs you will see that with an "extremely urgent" TI, they have an individual instruction to press "less urgent", where as if you have just an "urgent" TI, their individual pressing goes up to "Standard".

Is it a bug? Because it is counterintuitive.

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11 hours ago, sovy666 said:

Is it a bug? Because it is counterintuitive.

Can't be sure. I believe so from watching the gamepaly, I can quite clearly see that my winger just stands off allowing the opposition to advance on my fullback. 

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I've noticed this with forwards at times, the ball's played from the back to midfield & they'll just stroll about even with high pressing, I figure it's something to do with the LOE. If it's set past a certain point, they'll be less interested or their duty, a Support forward will look to get back a little more but again, it could all be tied in with LOE with how far they'll want to get back or press backwards    

Edited by Johnny Ace

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On ‎14‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 23:20, sovy666 said:

Currently I'm using a standard DL and a lower LOE, and extremely urgent press, first to force my W A and AF A to come back a bit more and then to have space both for possession and/or for a counter-attack.

Thanks for the replies to my question.  Yes @sovy666 I like the idea of withdrawing the LOE too for counter attacks.  Its something that I've been doing myself along with regrouping.

 

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:12, westy8chimp said:

I definitely think they should be considered in isolation. You can have a really high first press, but a deep line so you have time to regroup if they break through. Or my preference to completely block out the middle of the pitch... They can play around in defence, but their creative players wont have any time on the ball (obviously in current ME its not ideal because forcing the long ball isnt advisable) 

Thanks @westy8chimp.  Say for example you were blocking out the middle of the pitch.  Would you go for a midfield heavy formation to go with that?  Any thoughts in general about top/bottom heavy or narrow formations and how they'd work with certain blocks?  Or not thinking in those terms?

 

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 10:14, Johnny Ace said:

I use a LOE one click lower than my defensive line so my block's a little more compact.

I can't get my head around my why you'd expand your block but it must have it's uses  

I think maybe we have to be careful too narrow or too expanded.  With first option you can maybe caught out by one long pass almost taking out the whole team?  And the stretched version must be tiring...perhaps you can play that way with low closing down and a very positional and disciplined type of tactic.  Be interesting to learn if anyone tried going down that road.

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15 ore fa, Robson 07 ha scritto:

Thanks for the replies to my question.  Yes @sovy666 I like the idea of withdrawing the LOE too for counter attacks.  Its something that I've been doing myself along with regrouping.

Yes, I also have 'Regroup' in the 'in transition' settings

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@westy8chimp Your tactic is remarkably similar to my own, I'd looked at Leicester's title winning jobby as my base and slowly refined it over a few seasons.

Obviously I tweak a little in terms of roles and duties for particular players and opponents but I always have my right winger (or any winger) on support, I don't see the point in having this high acc/high pace and winger and limiting him in terms of space to run with and into and crossing options by asking him to stay right high up the pitch.

Lefty is usually a WM/a but I've gotten lucky with a quality newgen that fits perfectly as a right footed IW (although in my last few matches I forgot to change it and seen that using a left only IW/a confused the hell out of himself and everyone else by cutting in and then back out again to cross) in the same set up - Pure blacked out sliver of red suitability circle, mind.

I use the targetman support because for the first time in a lot of the series it seems to work for me, although changes of personnel often see this change to PF/s - PF/d drops so far back compared to last years DF/d I find - and I like using the Poacher just so he does stay further up the field although never successfully doing anything I like to think he preoccupies the AI a little just by being there, especially when I'm up against it. In match, 10 minutes to get etc, he becomes a PF/a or s alongside targetman.

Fullbacks in this version are murdering my soul, too defensive and they pick up a 6 every game and too attacking I concede ridiculous goals from long balls into that particular channel. Both fullbacks on s for the first time I can remember, although with my IW in front of him I do try and give the leftback a WB/s and cross my fingers every time I lose the ball outside their area.

BWM/d can be a CM/d with either the BBM/s alongside or a BWM/s if I think a bit of extra steel is wanted, although I'll try and give him a Get further forward shout at the same time.

One normal Defender, one No Nonsense, both defend due to the lower line(s), maybe a stopper if they play with a decent att mid but everyone has been 4-4-2 generally.

Lower D-line and Much lower LOE, same reasons: Bring them in, let them move it around a little and then bosh, snatch, watch your players bomb forwards and see the cross hit the first man and go out for a corner. A lot.

Still on my beta save and with this tactic - tweaked yearly, I started with just clean slate 442 balanced standard nowt and thought I'd figure stuff out that way waiting for the full release and simply enjoyed the learning curve so kept at it - I've come 2nd NI PIL (won playoff), 1st NI Championship (couldn't agree contract after that, I'd just taken a school team to the Premiership in 2 years and they wouldn't give me an extra £50 a week) so I moved to Hong Kong. In 3 years I've won League once, FA Cup all three times, some other weird cups once or twice, and won a game in the 94th minute thanks to an o.g from a guy called Wong Wai.

I'm enjoying this years a lot, now whether that's down to me playing it differently or the game I don't know but I feel like I'm in charge this version in comparison to some of the earlier ones

 

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In regards to the training, at part time I just concentrated on match preparation. Usually an outfield/physical and then a defensive shape/set piece delivery. Going to the full-time glamour of Hong Kong I had these dreams of making my players world beaters whilst winning every game. I fully appreciate now the differences in the approaches between, say, Pochettino and Pulis. Poch will consistently train his tactic and the necessary attributes required to accomplish it in the long run, while Pulis will focus solely on the next 3 points. Both are terrifically successful at what they do. I've found that I can't do both, or rather I don't have the bottle to do both, and my first team training week is full of sessions designed to give me the edge on a saturday, sod the rest of these lads careers. I like the conundrum and the impact it has on my recruitment, I could buy laddo that might be messi in 3 years time or I can go with jon walters now. Short term v long term is a much bigger choice now, I find, and far more enjoyable for it 

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On 09/11/2018 at 05:59, westy8chimp said:

 

@BasedDarrenMoore when I copy this post to your thread it lost images. I added get stuck in and mark tighter, otherwise this is my go to 442 low block... I also change between tm/dlf/pf on support. 

Cheers!

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